Payne Rogatory Lite part 3

by Kepharel 09.07.13 1:50

Payne is now invited to comment on how Jane Tanner described the child being carried. His description describes how Jane told him the child was being carried, which to him seemed unnecessarily hard work, and he then repeats the discrepancy Jane had previously mentioned about the description of the pyjamas, highlighting Jane’s description of pyjama turn-ups.

Payne is now invited to recall again what had happened once Kate had raised the alarm. He says they ran to the apartment, and repeats his interest in the position of the gates. Payne also mentions the matter of the shutters but offers no further clarification. Payne rationalises in his mind that the gates being closed suggested Madeleine had not wandered off. He then says he entered the apartment and looked in all the obvious places. Following this he went to his own apartment and checked on his children. In a rambling speech he then makes the following comments:

It was an eye opener.
It has a destabilising effect on people.
Most people had a pretty good idea of exactly what happened.
It is difficult for people to say exactly what they did and when.

Payne then returns to his answer and says he told Dianne Webster, still at the Tapas, to return to the apartment. He then has a ‘sweep’ of the kiddie’s pool, and a quick look at the tennis courts. Payne next speaks to Matthew Oldfield and Russell O’brien to get some structure into their search. One of the two, not clearly mentioned went to the Police Station (reception to call police??) Payne said he then went for a ‘sweep’ of the supermarket, and then to the front near the church. From there he searched the whole beach and among the rocks.

Payne then mentions again the need to distribute a picture, which Mark Warner staff helped them to do. The interviewer invites Payne to continue so the latter then describes entering Kate and Gerry’s apartment. He is then asked to describe the scene. Payne says that though other people came and went from the apartment, it was He, Fiona, Kate and Gerry who stayed there, discussing options about what could have happened. Standing at the doorway to the children’s bedroom he could see that Seam and Amelie were still asleep. He then recounts how Gerry, in the parent’s bedroom, would fling a cupboard door open, then the wardrobe before kicking the floor and saying ‘she’s gone, she’s gone’.

Payne is then asked to comment on the quote attributed to Kate and addressed to Gerry ‘We’ve let her down’ and Payne replies he cannot remember that quote, though he has heard it since. Payne then embarks on a dense discourse viz:

Emotions and guilt were going through the McCann’ minds.
Everyone was questioning themselves.
Things Kate was saying; things along the lines of ‘we weren't there for her’ and ‘when she needed us we weren't there. But that could have been May 3^rd or another night.
The phrase the interviewer mentioned would have been typical of how they felt.

Payne is asked if Fiona had told him Madeleine had woken up the previous night. He replies she had, and adds that Kate had asked Fiona if she (Kate) should be doing anything differently. Payne then changes the conversation to a child missing in Corfu ten years previously and how a crying child might have only been having a nightmare.

Payne is now told the interviewer has questions for him from the PJ.

When did he arrive at the beach club from the beach? Payne replies it was about 6:15 p.m.
Where did he go? To see Gerry at the tennis courts.
Who did you talk to? Just Gerry as far as he could remember.
Did he go to thee McCann apartment between 6 and 7:00 p.m.? Interviewer answers his own question ‘ yes you did’
Which route did you take?
Did you enter the apartment?
Who did you talk to?
Did you talk to Kate?

Questions 5 to 8 were answered by the interviewer as “You told me that” continuing:

Did you notice anything unusual? Payne says no.
How long did the conversation take?
Did you see the children?
What were the children doing?

Questions 10 to 12 were answered by the interviewer as “You've said that”

Were you aware of the baby listening service? Reply was Yes.
Was this available at night? They had a drop in service for the evening.

There follows a long rambling discourse on Drop in centres and listening services, the content of which has been covered before but includes a justification they were providing a better service themselves than Mark Warner could offer.

Were you aware that Gerry and Kate had changed their method of entering the apartment? Answer No.
Did you travel to Portugal with intercoms to monitor your children? Interviewer answers yes to his own question.
When you travel with your children do you always use intercoms? Answer as follows:

Visiting houses with children in loft then Yes because Scarlet was too young.
If children in earshot then no.
Now children older it doesn't matter.
Didn't make a habit of taking Monitor to resort and just going out, and not frequent holiday makers.

Did you suggest an intercom to anyone else? No.
Did you leave apartment windows or door open? On going out, not knowingly.

Interviewer now asks Payne to get his mobile phone out with a view to going through a series of numbers. Payne says the mobile he has is not the one he used on the holiday, but he did transfer some but not all of the numbers from the old phone. Payne is then told that he will be asked about a series of phone numbers and whether they are on his phone.

The phone numbers are not in the transcript but a summary of the responses to a number given by the interviewer are given below:

SA = Fiona’s sisters husband, a very good friend and relative. Six text messages on the 4^th were from Payne seeking advice from him.
Payne no longer has the send number offered. But a series of texts were made during the evening and two phone calls the next morning at about 8:00 and (:00 a.m. followed by followed by two texts at about 10: a.m. The interviewer suggests he may have been at the police station, but Payne replies if it were 10: a.m. it would have been before.
A local number. Payne believes it may have been someone SA put him onto in Portugal. Probably to replace mobiles for Kate and Gerry whose phones were running low, but Payne can’t be sure. The interviewer then points out two numbers texted at 10:00 p.m. that Friday evening, to which Payne responds his guess about replacement phones must have been wrong.
Next number is Payne says is his sister, but reconsiders and says it is his mother who lives in Rochdale.
The next number is his sister in Market Harborough.
The next number is a London number which Payne laughingly suggests they ring to find out. The number was called at between 11:15 p.m. on the Friday night. The call was quite a long one.
LL = A friend of the family, ringing to find out what was happening presumably.
The next number, on which a call was made, could have been a call by Fiona who was using his phone. He does not recognise the number.

The interview now turns to Yvonne Martin, the social worker. Payne brackets her and a photographer who said he used to work for the Mirror as people who were trying to force themselves into the situation. He says he told Ms Martin the moment wasn’t appropriate and to leave them alone as her offer of help wasn’t being helpful. This was between 9:00 a.m. and 10:00 a.m. On being asked if he had ever met her before Payne said no. when asked if he had spoken to the McCann’s about it Payne begins a lengthy and convoluted dialogue which takes in the following viz:

It was completely inappropriate.
She appeared to want to try to counsel Kate.
He mentioned her to Kate and Gerry within a short space of time, within 24 hours??
He was sat with Kate for hours at Portimao police station.
Weeks later Kate asked him who she was.
She never became an important topic of conversation.

Payne is now asked if he ever advised the McCann’s to take up Ms Martin’s offer, to which he replies “Not at all”, in fact he would have advised them to stay away from her, though not because there was anything sinister going on.

The interviewer now returns to remarks Payne had made previously about Kate’s expression when she returned from the Tapas. Payne then embarks on a discourse involving

A haunted face.
Still being able to see it (the tragedy?) in her eyes.
Grief and horror in her face.
He would never forget it.

The interviewer then mentions that according to Payne that Kate was saying ‘They've taken her’. Payne replies ‘She’s taken, they've taken her. On prompting from the interviewer Payne agrees Kate said ‘She’s gone’. The interviewer offers the observation that though Kate and Gerry like tennis, and played nearly every day, they never took their kit out with them. Payne agrees that they didn't. He then clarifies that they didn't take racquets and balls, nor specific tennis attire.

Asked what exactly did they wear Payne says he can’t remember. When suggested it might just have been tee shirts, Payne agrees and offers the fact the Gerry may have had white shorts. The interviewer then asks if they had a kit bag with them, Payne replies that it would not have been a large kit bag that might be taken on court with squash players for example. It was probably a small rucksack, maybe two, if they had one each.

Payne was now asked about a photo he had mentioned earlier. He was asked where it came from. Payne cannot confirm that it was Gerry’s digital camera, only that it was one of the cameras in the group. Neither can Payne remember the pose Madeleine was in on the photo, though he had actually seen it. Asked where the computer links were made, Payne says though he originally he thought it was at the Ocean Club Reception he now believes it to be the Tapas bar where there was a computer and printer in a room in the facility. It was Russell O’brien who did the linking.

The question was now asked whether the photo activity was at Gerry’s request, to which it could have been either Gerry’s or his. There followed another lengthy dialogue which took in the following viz:

Not everyone knew who Madeleine was.
People searching needed a photo to identify her.
She may have been taken by someone who had transport.
They wanted the area secured.
They wanted the roads closed down in the surrounding areas.

On being asked how many photos were downloaded, Payne says about ten, all of the same picture. He did not know what happened to them. Regarding whether any photos were taken that night at the Tapas, Payne says he didn’t personally take any. Asked if anyone else had taken photos before the disappearance Payne says he could not be sure. He then says that relatively few were taken in the group between 2^nd and 3^rd of May.

Payne was the asked if he had taken any photos on the Wednesday night which was a ‘late night’ for the group. He replied that he did take photos one evening, but he was not sure which one, though his camera would have the date on there. Payne also adds that evenings were not usually a time when photos were taken.

Returning to the topic of Thursday lunchtime at the beach, Payne was asked if he knew where Kate and Gerry were. He replied that he didn’t. The following exchange between the interviewer (1485) and Payne is convoluted, but I offer the following:

Payne did not know what Gerry and Kate were doing at the time he was windsurfing, but did know that Gerry would be at the tennis courts at the time he was leaving the restaurant. He is then asked if he saw Kate running across the beach to which he replies no, but had seen her running during the holiday, though he did not know exactly when.

Payne is now asked to describe Madeleine. He replies that she is a strikingly beautiful child, doll like. She had very pretty blonde hair in a bob. She was very bubbly and very good to interact with, and that ‘you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine’. She reacted to other children very well. She was very bright and not a mischievous type who might try to get out of a flat. Payne is now asked to describe the layout of the McCann apartment, which he describes thus:

Going through the patio door, the living room is directly ahead.
On towards the front door, the kitchen is to the right, boxed off from the living room.
Towards the front door on the left was the bathroom.
Looking at the bathroom door, the parent’s bedroom was to the left.
To the right of the bathroom door was the children’s bedroom.
There was a double bed in the parent’s bedroom.
In the children’s room was a bed up against the far wall by the window, and another bed parallel on the near side wall.
There were two cots between the parallel beds.
Madeleine slept in the near side wall bed.

Payne is now asked what the children’s bedroom was like after the disappearance. He says his impression of the room was it being fairly dark. There was no indication of clothes etc had been thrown around. He could not confirm other peoples opinion that the bed was neat and tidy. Asked how long he was in the room, Payne replied he never stepped the whole way in, and it could only have been about a minute. On being asked how many times he had gone into the McCann’s apartment up ‘til the 3^rd, to which Payne replied about half a dozen.

The interview now returns to the matter of the telephones, and Payne is asked if he actually spoke to anyone on the ‘local’ Portuguese number, in addition to a text at 10:02 a.m. and another at 10:08 a.m. Payne suggests one text could have been from a local newspaper, and the other from the friends of Simon Aldridge who had actually brought new phones to the police station at Portimao. As for speaking to anyone he says it could have been Lisa Lacarnie at a firm of solicitors in Lisbon, a family friend who offered to provide advice and support. He continues ‘then there’s Paolo’, whose number is in his other phone.

The interviewer now mentions the London ‘phone number again and tells Payne it is the number for the Crime Specialist Director in London. Payne says it was his sister who contacted them initially and following that he did also to ask for advice, though he can’t remember who he spoke to. Being told the call was at 11:23 p.m. Payne says he cannot remember making on that late.

Next follow questions about their relations with Gerry and Kate:

How long have you known them?

Payne says since about 2000 then enters a long discourse on the nature of their relationship and how close they were viz:

Holiday in Lanzarote about 2003.
Attended wedding in 2003.
Majorca in 2004.
Frequently meet.
Gets on really well with Gerry.
Kids get on well.
They are the salt of the earth.

Have you ever visited their home?

Visited at Queniborough.
Visited when they were in Amsterdam.
Many, many times since.

Were your children present as well?

Payne answers all visits have included the children.

How were the children taken care of at night?

Payne makes a convoluted reply concerning which included:

Madeleine was at their Wedding and stayed with her parents at all times.
In Majorca, stayed in farmhouse big enough for four couples. The children all slept upstairs.
While the children slept, the adults ate in a place a few metres from the premises.

In Praia Da Luz how often did you meet Kate and Gerry?

Payne replies it was less frequently than others in the group, but certainly in the evenings and at playtime. Replying to the question of how frequently they played tennis with the McCann’s other than the 3^rd., Payne said one evening during a ‘fastest serve’ competition, and probably one other evening.

Have you ever had a reason to be concerned about the children?

Payne responds that twins are always hard work, and that Madeleine would often get up in the night and sleep with the parents, but despite this he had never seen them ‘lose it’ with the kids, though they would tell them off when they were naughty, in the same way as any other parent.

When was the first time on the Thursday you saw Kate + Gerry?

He says that there was the tennis evening, and possibility during the day but he couldn’t be sure. Pressed on whether his first sighting of Kate was in the apartment, Payne responds that he possibly saw her before that but can’t be sure.

How were Kate + Gerry at the Tapas bar on the 3^rd?

Payne repeats his previous testimony that he discussed with Gerry the brilliant day they had had. He says that was pretty much the mood of the evening.

Did anyone leave the Tapas other than to check on their children?

Payne says he can’t think there was any other reason.

Was it the males who did all the running about?

He says he can only think of Jane. Neither can Payne remember whether Rachael ever checked, and Dianne Webster didn’t.

Did Gerry act any differently after his check?

Payne responds with an emphatic no.

When did you see Jane leave the table?

Payne doesn't answer this question, but repeats that he can’t remember how long people left for, and that Russell O’brien was away the longest.

Was it the one and only time Kate left the table?

He says he believes it was.

Were you shocked about what she said when she returned?

Here Payne makes a long reply, taking in the look on Kate’s face, the moment of disbelief he felt, her face a picture telling a thousand words, how reliable Kate is, what she said later regarding the gate, but mostly the look on her face.

Did you notice anything strange about the children’s bedroom in the McCann apartment?

Again Payne enters into a long dialogue that takes in:

There was a lot of screaming and shouting.
The twins slept through it all.
He noticed the change in the blind and window, but can’t be as sure as other people have been in describing it. At this point the interviewer presses him by asking him what he meant. Payne responds that it had been pointed out the window was open, but the blinds down though he could not recollect how far down.

The interviewer then asks whether Kate said anything about the blinds and shutter. Payne replies she did, but during the heat of the moment they were trying to work out it could be opened, whether from the inside or outside. Since then his recollections have merged and he cannot be sure exactly what she said.

The interviewer then runs through a series of potential questions, but does not look for a response as they had been dealt with before viz:

What did you do next?
Searches with Russell and Matt.
Assisting in the apartment.

How did Kate react when Madeleine was not found in the first ten minutes?

Payne says both she and Gerry were distraught. His attempt at further clarification is incomprehensible viz:

‘. Err Gerry would still try and function in between the moments of you know breaking down and err you know and try to, you know, I had the discussion on with phone and you know what, what we gonna do and err and then, you know, they'd breakdown again, so there was''’

What did you think of the McCann’s behaviour?

Payne replies that it seemed appropriate, but has never had the particular experience to compare with before.

What were your movements between 10:00 p.m. and the next morning?

The interviewer introduces the question and sets the scene for Payne to continue.

He makes a rambling statement that encompasses:

A sweep around the complex on his own.
A search of the beach, shouting for Madeleine, on his own.
Back to the apartment.
Then searched some rough land on the way to the Millenium restaurant, where he bumped into Dan the tennis coach.
Then involved in a discussion with Mark Warner People and the police immediately outside the apartment.

When did you eventually go back to your apartment?

Payne says he returned to his apartment to sleep at about 4:30 a.m. and woke up at about 6:00 to 6:30 a.m. he the repeats his assertion that they had already been up searching.

What did you do up until 9:00 a.m.?

Payne ignores the interviewer’s invitation to talk about Yvonne Martin and makes a long reply about local reporters being present, also news journalists, before mentioning Robert Murat being present together with the police, and their subsequent call to the police station.

When did you leave Portugal?

Payne says they stayed for another four weeks. He can’t remember the exact date but says it was toward the end of May.

What happened during those four weeks?

There follows a long rambling reply that incorporates the following:

They would meet up with Kate and Gerry most evenings because ……
Gerry was constantly ringing and corresponding with people, including the police, including the liaison team from Leicestershire.
Mike, Kate’s cousin and Jerry (?) came out, and then Trish and Sandy. He makes the point that Kate and Gerry now had a good team around them.
They watched a lot of Sky News.
Sometime, less than a week, there was a group meeting in his apartment because Kate and Gerry wanted to know how everyone else was holding up.

Did the original group stay for the same time as you?

Payne’s answer is disjointed but appears to indicate they stayed longest, though no-one really wanted to leave. He says that the others felt that they were becoming superfluous to requirements and it was the best time to leave. Gerry did end up coming back to the UK. On his return they then felt it was their time to leave.

During the holiday did you see Kate and Gerry speak to anyone unknown to yourself?

He says that they had met others, but he did not know them at the time, but it became more apparent who they were, and these were people they had played tennis with. They also came to know the nannies. There were a few holiday makers too, but these were periphery figures.

Did you see them in a car at all while they were in Portugal?

Apart from the taxi into PDL from Faro, Payne says he does not recall.

Is there anything you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the Material truth?
Payne says there are a few things, but he doesn’t think this is the right forum to discuss those matters.

Do you see yourself attending a re-enactment in April or May?

Payne says he will do anything in his power to help shed light on what happened to Madeleine. He does, however have concerns about going back to Portugal for that re-enactment and there is a letter with the Portuguese police requesting answers to points ‘we’ (the group?) have put. They will need some detailed answers to these points and be assured everyone else is taking part.

The interviewer then asks whether Payne had found any details about a particular phone number. He looks at his phone and says no. He is then asked whether the name SG means anything to him to which payne replies that it is his brother in law. Payne says Market Harborough. Asked whether SG works in London, Payne says yes.

The interviewer then asks about the nature of the calls at 8:09 p.m., 9:51 p.m., and 10:16 p.m. on the 4^th May. Payne seeks clarification that it was S’s phone. Payne says the calls were of the natur of ‘how are you doing, what’s going on’ etc. he says it was his sister and he would try to find out more information at a later date.

Payne is now asked about the phones SA had organised for him, and who had lent them. He replies the man is S brother and his name is Nand. He then continues in a rambling discourse taking in the following:

They were people who were willing to help.
It included a possible room for the night etc, so Payne said it would be helpful if they could supply phones.

He is then asked when the phones arrived and he replied at the police station. He cannot remember if there was any power in them. Payne is then asked what make they were he said they were Samsung phones with, he believes, Vodafone sim cards. Payne kept one and gave the other to Kate and Gerry. He no longer has the numbers of the phones. On being asked where they were now, payne says they were left in Portugal in the possession of Kate and Gerry.

On being asked to consider his response further Payne says he may well have brought the one phone back with him, maybe even both, and they could be at his home address. There is still a possibility, though, that he has only one, and the Mccanns the other. He says they did not use the phones often in Portugal. He says Fiona used the phone mostly, and it was not used back in the UK. The reason Payne proposes for this is that he he could not put any more credit on once it had run out, because they could not work out how to do so.

The interviewer then asks if he could pick the phone up when he takes Payne home, and Payne says he will look for it.

by lufc50337 09.07.13 11:09

Is there anything you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the Material truth?
Payne says there are a few things, but he doesn’t think this is the right forum to discuss those matters.

?????

by Kepharel 09.07.13 11:19

Very good spot Sally, yes I noticed that one too :) very cryptic.

by aiyoyo 09.07.13 17:29

Bloody brilliant job Kepharel - much easier on the eyes to read than the official version. Thanks.

The interviewer offers the observation that though Kate and Gerry like tennis, and played nearly every day, they never took their kit out with them. Payne agrees that they didn't. He then clarifies that they didn't take racquets and balls, nor specific tennis attire.

Interviewer fishing about for the blue holdall bag.

The interviewer invites Payne to continue so the latter then describes entering Kate and Gerry’s apartment. He is then asked to describe the scene. Payne says that though other people came and went from the apartment, it was He, Fiona, Kate and Gerry who stayed there, discussing options about what could have happened. Standing at the doorway to the children’s bedroom he could see that Seam and Amelie were still asleep. He then recounts how Gerry, in the parent’s bedroom, would fling a cupboard door open, then the wardrobe before kicking the floor and saying ‘she’s gone, she’s gone’

Gerry looking into cupboard/wardrobe at that stage? Wrong order of doing thing. Surely that is the first thing you would do before raising the alarm.

During the holiday did you see Kate and Gerry speak to anyone unknown to yourself?
He says that they had met others, but he did not know them at the time, but it became more apparent who they were, and these were people they had played tennis with. They also came to know the nannies. There were a few holiday makers too, but these were periphery figures.

Maybe some of these people are amongst the 38 POI that Police would like to interview.

Returning to the topic of Thursday lunchtime at the beach, Payne was asked if he knew where Kate and Gerry were. He replied that he didn’t. The following exchange between the interviewer (1485) and Payne is convoluted, but I offer the following:

Payne did not know what Gerry and Kate were doing at the time he was windsurfing, but did know that Gerry would be at the tennis courts at the time he was leaving the restaurant. He is then asked if he saw Kate running across the beach to which he replies no, but had seen her running during the holiday, though he did not know exactly when.

His answer gave away that the mccanns were doing their own things on the 3rd independent of the group, a break away from norm, and that itself would raise suspicion. On the whole Police got some nuggets from his gibberish.

The interviewer now mentions the London ‘phone number again and tells Payne it is the number for the Crime Specialist Director in London. Payne says it was his sister who contacted them initially and following that he did also to ask for advice, though he can’t remember who he spoke to. Being told the call was at 11:23 p.m. Payne says he cannot remember making on that late.

What would he be wanting from that contact at that hour - ODD![/quote]

by lj 09.07.13 19:31

Kepharel you're an hero!

by **PeterMac** 09.07.13 20:52

lj wrote:Kepharel you're an hero!

I second that. Many thanks for your work.

He then recounts how Gerry, in the parent’s bedroom, would fling a cupboard door open, then the wardrobe before kicking the floor and saying ‘she’s gone, she’s gone’

I wonder what is the subtle distinction between a "cupboard" and a "wardrobe".
The photos seem to show a built in "wardrobe" along the wall backing on to the bathroom in the parent's bedroom; and the same feature along the right hand wall, backing onto the area leading to the front door in the children's room.
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Unless he is referring to the little cupboards at the top

by Woofer 09.07.13 23:19

Good piece of work - really clarifies things.

And the ah ha moment for me is the flinging the wardrobe door open, kicking the floor and saying `she`s gone, she`s gone. So, could she have been abducted ........ after she was dead?

by Guest 09.07.13 23:27

Woofer wrote: [...] So, could she have been abducted ........ after she was dead?

***
Well, no. Gerry said he's convinced that she was alive when she was abducted.

by Woofer 09.07.13 23:32

Châtelaine wrote:
Woofer wrote: [...] So, could she have been abducted ........ after she was dead?
***
Well, no. Gerry said he's convinced that she was alive when she was abducted.

Ah well, daft idea then.