Payne Rogatory Lite part 2

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Payne Rogatory Lite part 2

Post by Kepharel on Tue 9 Jul - 1:49

3rd May 2007.

Payne was asked to cast his mind back to the time the alarm was raised in order to help him remember the rest of the day. he replies that on that day they had gone to the beach and took dinghies out,  then had lunch with the kids in the apartment.  In the afternoon he says he wanted to return to the beach and windsurf while Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'brien were sailing. Fiona and Dianne Webster looked after the kids in the apartment.  After windsurfing and sailing for a few hours the three men met on the beach.  they played with the children, ate at the restaurant overlooking the beach and had an evening meal there.  Leaving the girls at the restaurant he left with Russell O'brien for the Ocean Club. 

Finding himself alone at the tennis court, and forgetting  to what happened to Russell O'brien and Matthew Oldfield along the way, he spoke to Gerry. Gerry asked him to pop in to see how Kate and the kids were doing, though can't remember the reason why but thought it might be that Gerry wanted to stay on court longer.  He would then return to the courts.  He entered the McCann's apartment at 6:30 p.m. through the patio doors.  After observing a picture of family contentment, with happy children dressed in predominantly white pyjamas, Payne remarked to Kate it seemed early for their bed-time.  She said they had a tiring day.

Payne then said he returned to the tennis courts and played tennis with Matthew Oldfied, Russell O'brien and, for a short while Gerry.  Gerry, having said he had played enough went, leaving only the above three and Dan the Mark Warner tennis coach.  he says it was gone 7:30 p.m. when they left the courts to get ready to go to the Tapas.  On his return Fiona took a break from babysitting while he had played tennis to go for a run.  By the time Fiona had returned from her run and they had both showered, the children were asleep so they made their way to the Tapas, meeting Matthew Oldfield walking back towards  the apartments in order to see what the delay was for the Paynes.  His demenour was mild agitation, reflected in the manner he spoke, at the lateness of the Paynes.
Once at the Tapas dining table Payne expressed pleasantries with Gerry McCann on how well the day had gone.  Payne commented at this point on noticing people leving the table periodically and cites Russell O'brien and Jane Tanner who were concerned Evie wasn't feeling well.

At just after 10:00 p.m. Kate came back from her check on the children distraught, with a face of 'someone who's child has just been taken'.  Shaken, Payne and others in the party said she must be wrong.  He confirms the words quoted of Kate McCann that 'she's been taken' as factually correct.  Continuing his dialogue Payne remarks he was interested to see the state of the apartment, who had left door open etc. he remarks on his belief there were two gates on the back of the apartment, one a child gate, and another for access to the road.

Payne suggests during his dialogue the position of those gates might have been important and postulates the possibilities the child was taken or had wandered off.  He put his concerns to Kate and she was adamant both were shut and the child had been abducted. While at the apartment Payne remarks he did not 'enter too much into the room'.  Looking in he could see the twins still in their cots.  he could also see Madeleine's bed, and commented it looked like 'all hell had broken loose'. 
Payne then returned to his own apartment to check on his children.  It was Fiona who asked Dianne Webster to stay at the table in the Tapas in case madeleine wandered by, after which Payne asked her to return to look after the children.  He then did a sweep of the pool area and the Ocean Club.  Having then met up with Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'brien they discussed how they might be systematic in their search.
Payne's own search efforts centred around The Millennium Restaurant, down to the supermarket and then the beach.  Matthew Oldfield offered to return to the Ocean Club and ask them to 'phone the police.  During the search, Payne continued to return to the McCann apartment periodically to get updates on what was going on and whether the police had arrived.  He noticed the presence of Mark Warner staff trying to be of assistance.  At some point he noticed two GNR Police Officers and remarked on how long it took them to arrive.
He noticed a lady, who’s name he can’t remember trying to translate the views and concerns of English only speakers. Next, Payne recounts how they got hold of a printer and ran off copies of a photograph of Madeleine to be distributed, after which further requests were made of the two GNR officers to close off roads.  After this he and others continued the search.  Some time later detectives from Portimao arrived on the scene and began talking to Kate and Gerry.  At some point later he ‘phones Fiona’s father to get some advice about the situation.
On being invited by the interviewer to continue, Payne recounted how he met up with Kate and Gerry after they had finished with the detectives. With the time now between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m., he and Gerry then began searching again by the Ocean Club reception and at the beach.  Payne now makes a comment that the behaviour of Kate and Gerry, who were constantly breaking down was not out of the ordinary in any way, in his opinion, given the circumstances.  Payne mentions Gerry breaking down at the beach, and consoling him before the went back to Payne’s apartment where the McCann twins had now been moved for them all to get some sleep.
Payne continues that upon waking he discovered Kate and Gerry had been out that morning continuing to search before they all left to find the whereabouts of the police.  He then recounts he began to talk to Robert Murat who he was not 100 % sure he had seen the night before around the time the lady was translating.  He says that he chatted to this person who may have been Murat the previous evening.
Murat introduced himself to Payne, explaining he was an expat, with a daughter who was both the same age as Madeleine and similar in looks.  Murat also told Payne he had just arrived back from Norfolk and that ‘he had been involved in something major over there’. Payne thought he was being over familiar. Payne then explains that the Police took them to the police station to be interviewed, along with Gerry, Kate, and Matthew Oldfield.  He stated that while at the station he saw TV footage that included a sighting of Madeleine.  This TV footage affected Kate quite a lot. On being prompted by the interviewer, Payne stated that was everything he could recall about that day.
The interviewer asks Payne to recall the beach incidents during the 3rd. May.,during which he was windsurfing and spotted matthew Oldfield and Russell O’brien. Payne is asked to recall an incident where Matthew Oldfield fell from the catamaran.  He continues that the incident was a source of amusement at the dinner table. Payne says he never saw the incident but estimates it very roughly at about 3:00 p.m.  At this point Payne offered the information that his children usually slept in the afternoon between 2:00 and 4:00 p.m.  The interviewer now suggests that Payne was windsurfing at around 4:00 p.m. based on his girls afternoon sleep but he replies that it was during this time he was windsurfing, not after it. He now offers the fact that Fiona and Dianne Webster would be caring for the kids during this time.
On being asked if he saw anyone, maybe in his group, on his way to the beach, Payne says he can’t remember.  As far as he remembers he walked to the beach on his own.  Asked if the beach was busy, and how long he was there, Payne replies not particularly busy and for a couple of hours.  When suggested to him it was about 6:00 p.m. when he finished windsurfing, Payne replies it was about 4:00 p.m. because the children arrived at the beach and they all played together.  After play Payne says they then went to the restaurant, and though he had no watch or mobile with him, his camera activity suggests they left the restaurant at 6:00 p.m.
Payne is now asked who they left on the beach when they walked up and he replies they didn’t leave from the beach, but from the restaurant.  Asked who they left at the restaurant, Payne replies ‘basically the children and the ladies that stayed behind, Fiona saying they should leave otherwise they would miss any activities, specifically tennis.  Asked who the ladies were Payne replies Fiona, Rachael, and Jane with all the respective children.  When asked who they walked to the Ocean Club with, Payne says Russell O’brien and Matthew Oldfield, who carried on to their own apartments.  The actual meaning of what was said cannot be summarised, so the  following quote:
"Okay, and who did you walk back to the Ocean Club with''
 Reply "Err there was Russell and Matt. As I say I can't, can't remember what hap, whether they went, we peeled off and they carried up to the apartment and I said oh I'll just go down to the tennis, you know, I can't remember exactly what happened at that stage, but I know I went and spoke to Gerry.'

Presumably the tennis remark was made to Fiona.  There follows a conversation about the route taken back to the apartment from the restaurant which involved consulting a map, offering no clue to the response given to the interviewer other than to say it proceeded from the restaurant and passed by a pub popular with locals and tourists, and on to the  Ocean Club Reception and the supermarket.  Payne makes the point that this was not the way they always walked.  When asked how long this would have taken Payne replies about 15 minutes.
On enquiring whether he had gone directly to the tennis courts, Payne replied yes, where he spoke to Gerry and then went back to Kate in the apartment.  Asked what Gerry was doing when he arrived Payne replied he was playing tennis with friends he had made.  In response to the question of whether Gerry stopped playing in order to talk Payne says he cannot remember, but thinks he did stop playing. On enquiring how long he was at the courts, Payne says ‘not too long’.  It being suggested it was not his intention to play tennis upon leaving the beach, Payne insists it was always his intention.  He then embarks on a long rambling reply which takes in:

  • They had all gone ahead because they waited ‘til the children finished eating.
  • They had put the children into their prams.
  • Fiona remarking they had better hurry if ‘you’re actually gonna do anything tonight’
  • The tennis was around 6:30 p.m.
  • Leaving the restaurant needed to be 6:15 p.m. in order to make it.
  • They were already cutting it fine.

None of the above discourse is in any comprehensible order.
When asked if they were going for a lesson or just to play, Payne remarked the idea was to make a foursome with Matthew Oldfield, Russell O’brien and  Gerry.  When remarked that Gerry was already playing, Payne says that they played as a foursome with Gerry for a short while, but he had played enough, that being the reason he left early, and the foursome became one with Dan the tennis coach.
On being pressed about when Gerry retired from the game Payne replies probably one set. He is now asked at what point Gerry asked him to visit Kate.  Here, the reply is almost incomprehensible, but the following is an interpretation:
He had arrived at the tennis court from the beach with no equipment so Gerry suggested that while on his way to get into his tennis gear he should call in on Kate.  He says he called in on her on his way back to the courts.  Payne continues by amending the timing of the visit to Kate by saying it could have been on his way to or from his apartment.  The interviewer now suggests that in order to pass by Gerry’s apartment roadside he would have walked past the door twice.
The incomprehensible dialogue continues, and the following summary is offered as an interpretation, which completely evades the question about the point at which Gerry asked him to talk to Kate:
It is more likely that he visited Kate on the way to her apartment because he had entered through the patio doors.  On the way back it would have been more logical to access the apartment through the door.  When asked how long he was in the apartment with Kate, Payne tries to build a timeline starting with leaving the apartment at 6:15 p.m.  he then estimates a walk to the courts of ten to fifteen minutes, five to 10 minutes conversation with Gerry and Kate, which leaves him starting to play tennis at between 6:35 and 6:40 p.m.
Payne is now asked whether he has his own racquet and replies no, that it was a Mark Warner racquet.  The interview now returns to his visit with Kate.
The interviewer now offers a way into the topic by asking if the patio door was already open.  Payne responds with a lengthy dialogue summarised below:
He thinks the patio door was open.  He sees befor him a happy and contented family of Kate and the children, and comments that it was early for the children to be going to bed.  Payne is at pains to point out how content and immaculate the children looked. The family were directly in front of him while he stood at the patio door before entering the lounge.  Payne then says he entered the lounge and complimented Kate on how well the children were presented, adding that Gerry had just finished playing tennis, but he was on his way over to join  Gerry, Matthew Oldfield and Russell O’brien, asking her if that was okay.  She said there was no problem and they continued the conversation for a short while longer.
On being asked if he had definitely entered the apartment he responds yes, two or three steps inside.  Pressed about what everyone was wearing he says he cannot remember but it was predominantly white.  He confirms that he saw all three children, and they were standing up.  When asked if the children had acknowledged him he said yes and was then at pains to point out how much interaction with them he had had that week, in the play area for example. He now states it was the last time he saw Madeleine and he was in the apartment for between three and five minutes before leaving, and leaving the patio doors open.
The interviewer now asks Payne to recall his return to the tennis courts and asks Payne to confirm he played from between 7:00 and 8:00 p.m. and wanted to return so Fiona could have a run. When asked whether he had spoken to Gerry on his return to the courts he responds yes, and had told Gerry everything was okay and he could probably stay longer if he wanted.  Payne was asked to confirm whether this conversation occurred immediately on his return or at the end of the tennis session.  He said yes, immediately on his return because Gerry would have wanted to know that, given his nature.
The interviewer now tells Payne he wants to move directly to the time Payne arrived at the Tapas.  He asks where Payne crossed paths with Matthew Oldfield and indicates on a map which, from the transcript, would be in the complex near the swimming pool at about 9:00 p.m. On being asked about the seating arrangements Payne says Gerry was next to him on his left, of the whole group he cannot be sure whether Jayne or Rachael were there when he arrived. On being asked what Gerry was doing when he arrived, Payne embarks on a long discourse which covers the following events:

  • He may have been having a conversation with someone else.
  • They discussed what a great day they had had.
  • Payne had been under pressure at work and trying to balance family life.
  • An unexplainable comment viz. . “You know that is my recollection of the first thing that happened on that table, but just, whether its because it was such a positive conversation that we'd had, which override the fact that there was other things that had happened before I wouldn't like to say but in my mind that was the first thing that had happened”. (my emphasis)

When asked whether Gerry had left the table to check on Madeleine, Payne replied yes it had happened but he was unsure which order people had left the table to check their children because he may subsequently have been influenced by things he may have read and events since.  Concerning Russell O’briens absence Payne says that O’brien had been gone quite a few minutes because he had to change the sheets on his child’s bed because she had been sick.  Payne further commented that O’briens absence was long enough for the kitchen staff to have to cook a fresh meal.  After this Payne launches into an almost impenetrable discourse as follows:
“yeah I know that Gerry left the table, you know, I can remember him, I remember him coming back to say well you know, he wasn't left, you know he didn't leave at you know an unreasonable amount of time, it didn't seem that he was away for particularly long, you know he did make some comment, which I know that if someone else was hearing as a group had said yeah, I'll say yeah you know that's what he said, but I can't remember err entirely, but err you know, the, the conversation at the table in terms of other people leaving and looking at the children was along the lines of you know that it, and again it transpired later that I, that other people were look, you know were popping in as an extra addition to what other people were generally doing in terms of looking after the err children and err you know when Matt came back I remember him saying to somebody oh yeah I've looked at, you know and they're fine you know and that was the way that the other families were, were working it.”
My attempted translation is as follows:
Gerry left the table at some time, but when Payne doesn’t remember.  Gerry was not away an unduly long time.  Payne cannot remember any conversation within the group discussing when they they would leave the table.  Other members of the group may have looked in on children other than their own.  Matthew Oldfield had made a comment to someone upon his return saying the children were fine.
On being asked whether Gerry had mentioned a conversation with Jeremy Wilkins, Payne says he thinks so, but his thinking may be influenced by what he has subsequently seen and read.  Payne doesn't recall Jane Tanner returning shortly after Gerry.  Payne is then asked whether any other conversation across the dining table stood out in his mind.  He thinks he cannot remember anything else, but comments that Jane Tanner had not discussed anything she had seen during her visit. Pressed on whether Jane had seen a male carrying a child Payne says it was not mentioned at the table.  Subsequently during the search he says that Jane had mentioned the sighting to Fiona.
On being invited to continue Payne says in, retrospect, it might be seen as odd not to mention this, but the resort was family friendly so such a thing would not have occurred to any of the group.  The explanation that it was a father carrying his child would be a reasonable assumption to make.  The interviewer invites Payne to continue.  He says Fiona (Jane?) mentioned the sighting to Fiona. Jane then mentioned it to him before she told Kate.  A report in the Telegraph about the disappearance mentioned Madeleine’s pyjamas, but Jane says that wasn't right and she has no idea how the paper got that information.  Jane then went on to describe to Payne what she recollected Madeleine was wearing which was different to the press. My interpretation of this discourse finishes here.  I have no idea what Payne means when he next said viz:
“and that was before she'd even seen Kate so you know, the strength of that argument is just absolutely overwhelming, you know given the time frame err you know of when Madeleine must have gone, gone, that you know and for her to have described in detail the pull ups at the bottom of the pyjamas err you know the colours, you know and the timing is just, you know well, so.'”


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