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The Experiment

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Re: The Experiment

Post by russiandoll on 18.02.13 17:19

from Spaniel
"OK, but why would he parade the streets of PdL carrying a friend's
daughter in his arms? He didn't know that he would be witnesed by anyone
and where was he taking her? What was his point? "



Smith sighting : the child was in pjs and barefoot, just like the child JT would say she witnessed being carried away near 5a.
Plan......to have an independent witness to the abduction. Walkaround was planned for earlier, but JW bumped into Gerry and it was delayed.
He might not be seen, but he might be at that time of the evening, walking towards the beach near a popular bar.
A real abductor would have heard the Smith group and taken another direction, this man walked right by them.
So a man carrying a sleeping child, who did not come forward to i.d. himself.
Not likely just a holidaymaker or local resident taking a child home.
Didn't JT remark on the bare feet and cold night air?
This child too had bare feet.....
Plan, to link this sighting with the JT sighting. Same man, same child, a group of independent witnesses.
But the McCanns ended up making nothing of it.
Because Mr Smith did not come forward in the anticipated way.

just my opinion !

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Guest on 18.02.13 17:19

@PeterMac wrote:
@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.
Exactly. Dead bodies "leak", hence you use this method.
Live bodies need support for the head, to stop it flopping around - and waking up - hence carrying upright with the head supported on the shoulder, part of the weight supported purely by friction, and a forearm under the buttocks, allowing the other hand to be free.
See photo of GM carrying a living child off the plane.

And the Smiths description of him carrying a child when he passed them.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Guest on 18.02.13 17:23

@tigger wrote:
@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.

I've always thought that JT described Maddie being carried like that - just earlier in the week. Part of the charade of the 3rd was to establish that the mcCanns could not have had time to dispose of the body. Quite so.
It comes up in quite a few interviews, a trump card.

Didn't JT let slip somewhere something like "I carried her.."?

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Woofer on 18.02.13 17:30

@Spaniel wrote:
@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.
I won't be clicking on images Woofer, still haven't got over watching "Sophie's Choice" film 25 years ago.

Personally, if I had to carry a child in an emergency, mine or anyone elses, I would do so by whatever method I was capable of.

No - I`ve never got over that film either.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Spaniel on 18.02.13 17:31

@tigger wrote:This is why I think he undertook this exercise: from the Timeline of the 3rd May:

23.40 Gerry calls Trish Cameron (11.13 minutes)
"It was my younger brother Gerry distraught on the phone, breaking his heart. He said: 'Madeleine is abducted, she's been abducted'. 'They kept going back to check the kids every half hour. The restaurant was only 40 yards away. He went back at 9 o’clock to check the children. They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut'.
Kate then went over to the two-bedroom ground-floor apartment and 'came out screaming', said Mrs. Cameron. 'The door was lying open, the window in the bedroom and the shutters had been jimmied open'. "They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine." (timesonline 6 may)
Sandy Cameron statement: “On the night of Thursday, May 3, 2007, Patricia received a telephone call from Gerry informing us of the disappearance of Madeleine. Gerry manifested all those emotions one expects from a father who has lost a child in the circumstances. He was distraught and spoke at the same time he cried. He seemed frustrated with the slowness of the searches in Portugal, with the fact that the borders had not been closed, and with the fact that sniffer dogs were not being used. Patricia and I contacted the British Embassy to try and help in this regard.”
unquote

But that call had been deleted from the mobile. It was made however, since the 23.40 call does appear on the pings.
His second call to Cameron was at 00.05. Three seconds.

How would he know the borders had not been closed (as if they could).
Why did he expect sniffer dogs to turn up within one hour of phoning the GNR? (they're hardly on standby duties I would think).
The phone call to the GNR was logged at 10.40 pm.
unquote

I think he expected to have laid a trail for the dogs, into PdL to add veracity to the story. Why on earth he thought these dogs would be ready within an hour (the GNR turned up around 11.00 p.m.) is beyond me.
I don't need a convoluted explantion such as the one above Tigger. I simply know they are two liars. One enabling the other.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by pennylane on 18.02.13 17:40

@Spaniel wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:I believe that it WAS GM who was seen carrying a child. Why do I believe it? Because if it had not been GM he would have milked the sighting for all he could.
Spot on sallypelt.

Yep

G thought he had been rumbled by a large group of people, and feared nothing short of a dual sighting would save him. JT feared if G went down he would take her partner down with him and she would never let that happen..... hence swarthyman was born.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Truthmustout on 18.02.13 17:46

@Portia wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.

I've always thought that JT described Maddie being carried like that - just earlier in the week. Part of the charade of the 3rd was to establish that the mcCanns could not have had time to dispose of the body. Quite so.
It comes up in quite a few interviews, a trump card.

Didn't JT let slip somewhere something like "I carried her.."?

Yes she did in this clip here

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Guest on 18.02.13 18:20

@pennylane wrote:
@Spaniel wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:I believe that it WAS GM who was seen carrying a child. Why do I believe it? Because if it had not been GM he would have milked the sighting for all he could.
Spot on sallypelt.

Yep

G thought he had been rumbled by a large group of people, and feared nothing short of a dual sighting would save him. JT feared if G went down he would take her partner down with him and she would never let that happen..... hence swarthyman was born.


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Re: The Experiment

Post by pennylane on 18.02.13 18:26

@Portia wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
@Spaniel wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:I believe that it WAS GM who was seen carrying a child. Why do I believe it? Because if it had not been GM he would have milked the sighting for all he could.
Spot on sallypelt.

Yep

G thought he had been rumbled by a large group of people, and feared nothing short of a dual sighting would save him. JT feared if G went down he would take her partner down with him and she would never let that happen..... hence swarthyman was born.



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Re: The Experiment

Post by Mirage on 18.02.13 19:32

@pennylane wrote:
@Portia wrote:
@pennylane wrote:
@Spaniel wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:I believe that it WAS GM who was seen carrying a child. Why do I believe it? Because if it had not been GM he would have milked the sighting for all he could.
Spot on sallypelt.

Yep

G thought he had been rumbled by a large group of people, and feared nothing short of a dual sighting would save him. JT feared if G went down he would take her partner down with him and she would never let that happen..... hence swarthyman was born.



Martin Smith contacted the police when he saw GM arriving back in UK on the Easy Jet flight, convinced this was the man he'd seen in PdL carrying a child ?? against the body/ his face turned away.

This Smith sighting strikes me as a different mode of carriage to the JT "sighting". Whereas the attitude JT has described with her sighting may besuggestive of a dead child being carried.

I can never forget the Panorama interview of JT (posted by Moa-Vanilla a few posts back) where she seems to be saying: "I .... (changes to aaargh) ..was carrying the child like this....." She does a little eye roll straight after, as if she's realised what she's just said. Freeze-frame shows it best.

I also recall - please correct me if I'm wrong as I read this some time back - a reference to JW sighting someone described as/or very like JT. alone. This woman was standing at the carpark side of the apartment opposite 5a (again from memory, at about 8/ 8.15pm, the time when JW first walked his unsettled baby out in the pushchair).

An independent motorist also gave a matching description of someone at the same sort of time at the road intersection. Apparently this woman was standing alone in the dark staring intently across at 5a. The motorist said she turned her back and moved away as if not wishing to be seen.

I think he mentioned the sweater she wore was purple, as she was she was caught briefly in his headlights. Was JT was wearing a purple sweater that evening?

I don't think I dreamt this! Anyone else remember?

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Re: The Experiment

Post by tigger on 18.02.13 19:33

Spaniel wrote:
I don't need a convoluted explantion such as the one above Tigger. I simply know they are two liars. One enabling the other.
unquote

I wrote:
[....] Why did he expect sniffer dogs to turn up within one hour of phoning the GNR? (they're hardly on standby duties I would think).
The phone call to the GNR was logged at 10.40 pm.
I think he expected to have laid a trail for the dogs, into PdL to add veracity to the story. Why on earth he thought these dogs would be ready within an hour (the GNR turned up around 11.00 p.m.) is beyond me. unquote

I pointed out the relevance of Gerry asking or wanting tracker dogs this early. It supports his fake abductor walk through PdL. It supports the suspicion of the PJ that they were given a towel with Gerry's scent on it when the dogs were used.
It supports the theory that the sighting in PdL was part of the original plan. Being surrounded by 9 people who spoke English and took an interest wasn't part of the plan.
It supports the McCanns changing the distance to PdL by doubling it - to make it impossible for Gerry to have done that trip. So on and so forth.

I haven't seen these arguments aired before. If this explanation is too long as well I would advise you to skip over my posts.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Spaniel on 18.02.13 19:33

@russiandoll wrote:from Spaniel's post :


From what you say Peter Mac, the Smith sighting must have been wrong? That they witnessed a live child being carried?

Sorry PM and all if I have misunderstood the point.


I believe that Gerry was carrying young Ella O Brien when seen by the Smiths and that the absence of JT and ROB at the crucial time that evening was because they were involved in this part of the drama.
Was this a diversion then Russian Doll? GM carries another child, whilst Madeleine was carried by another?

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Spaniel on 18.02.13 19:37

@tigger wrote:Spaniel wrote:
I don't need a convoluted explantion such as the one above Tigger. I simply know they are two liars. One enabling the other.
unquote

I wrote:
[....] Why did he expect sniffer dogs to turn up within one hour of phoning the GNR? (they're hardly on standby duties I would think).
The phone call to the GNR was logged at 10.40 pm.

I think he expected to have laid a trail for the dogs, into PdL to add veracity to the story. Why on earth he thought these dogs would be ready within an hour (the GNR turned up around 11.00 p.m.) is beyond me. unquote

I pointed out the relevance of Gerry asking or wanting tracker dogs this early. It supports his fake abductor walk through PdL. It supports the suspicion of the PJ that they were given a towel with Gerry's scent on it when the dogs were used.
It supports the theory that the sighting in PdL was part of the original plan. Being surrounded by 9 people who spoke English and took an interest wasn't part of the plan.
It supports the McCanns changing the distance to PdL by doubling it - to make it impossible for Gerry to have done that trip. So on and so forth.

I haven't seen these arguments aired before. If this explanation is too long as well I would advise you to skip over my posts.
Sorry Tigger. Bad days here, but no excuse. Apologies to all posters.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Mariita on 18.02.13 19:48

@Spaniel wrote:
Moa-Vanilla wrote:As I told earlier I was going to do and experiment on my daughter tonight as she is the exact age today as Madeleine was when she went missing.
I let her slep the exact amount of time as M , according to when she was put to bed by K and G and then Seen by Jane Tanner. I used my hubby to lift her as he is stronger than me, would also say bigger and stronger then the man JT Claims she saw .

Well she did wake up almost before he touched her, and by the time he lifted her up and before he got to turn her around she was fully awake looking at us with big eyes probably wondering what the hell was going on lol :)

We put her back in the bed, and she was a sleep again within minutes.

So my conclusion is, that unless Madeleine by nature was a heavy sleeper, she would have to be drugged one way or the other to sleep through that "abduction" And I dont think Madeleine was a heavy sleeper as her sleeping cart home in England suggest otherwise... I also dont think there would been any time for an abductor to sedate her and do all what he did in those few minutes and leaving absolutly no traces.
Maybe I watched too many old films, but I thought a child snatcher would enter with a blanket and wrap the kid up to stop them struggling in case they awoke.

Glad your babe is non the worse for your experiment.
And don't forget the handkerchief pre-soaked with chloroform...
Fun experiment though Moa-Vanilla, you actually made a try Hmm, both Gerry and JW claim they didn't see the abductor, but how come neither of them HEARD the unevitable noices of puffing and panting he must have made with that extra weight...

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Guest on 18.02.13 21:48

"Ages" ago [I think on Anorak] we had a poster testing to open her shutters from the outside and in the end concluded that the "abductor" must have been an octopus, as it took EIGHT arms to be able to lift the shutters, keep them up, enter the room, take the child and leave again ...

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Re: The Experiment

Post by PeterMac on 18.02.13 23:21

@Mariita wrote:Hmm, both Gerry and JW claim they didn't see the abductor, but how come neither of them HEARD the unevitable noices of puffing and panting he must have made with that extra weight...
Nor did they hear the shutters being pushed up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IeuMzyaCnnY
It was I !

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Re: The Experiment

Post by russiandoll on 18.02.13 23:42

@PeterMac wrote:
@Mariita wrote:Hmm, both Gerry and JW claim they didn't see the abductor, but how come neither of them HEARD the unevitable noices of puffing and panting he must have made with that extra weight...
Nor did they hear the shutters being pushed up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IeuMzyaCnnY
It was I !


So.......... Neither man saw Jane.
Neither man saw an abductor.

No Jane on one street. No abductor on the other.

Makes sense to me.

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             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


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