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The Experiment

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Snifferdog on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:01 pm

I would put my bet on Jane Tanner being the truthful one here. Wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time. We already know that team M are practiced liars as evidenced in their contradictory statements. Jane's testimony did not benefit the Mccs version events at all and as Peter Mac mentions cuts the claimed impossible 'abduction' window of time down to minutes which called for a lot of jemmieing from the Mccs in the mocumentary. Jane was truly the T(Sp)anner in the works. Perhaps someone is wielding a big hammer to crush any dissent from the official line. I am not saying this is the case as it is only my opinion but what would you do if say someone threatens your family/children if you do not play along in a given scenario. Especially if it were the type of Savile type infected scenario which involved persons who wield a lot of influence in many quarters. See how he openly bragged and No One did anything during all those years for fear of getting bumped off. IMO. One would truly be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Perhaps we need to place the microscope on Mr Wilkins again, and the other person related to Justice M Hodge who hot footed it back to Switzerland. Probably the most influential person there of them all.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Woofer on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:06 pm

@PeterMac wrote:GA clearly believes that JT had turned left along the path at the bottom of the gardens, and therefore had gone to her apartment through her own patio doors.
So she didn't even get as far as GM and JW.
Which makes a bit more sense, actually.

That`s interesting PM, I didn`t know that. It would make more sense. I`ve always tended to think JT is confused rather than devious and maybe persuaded by certain people to `adjust` her recollections, making her even more confused. I just feel she`s been sucked into a situation and can`t backtrack for obvious reasons.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Snifferdog on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:27 pm

I have posted a famous picture of the dying Hector Pieterson. Photo taken during the Sharpville uprising in 1964 Soweto South Africa to demonstrate that it is entirely possible to carry someone and more so a child in the manner Jane Tanner described. K and G must be happy no one believes her, creates more confusion.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by bobbin on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:45 pm

@PeterMac wrote:
Jean wrote:A reminder of Dave Edgar's hilarious reconstruction of Jane Tanner's version of events.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na4aBr5PTYY
It starts at around 0.50 and particularly of interest is how Gerry abruptly cuts Jane off from 1.50 when she remarks about him being gone for a long time.
Thanks to that fine upstanding citizen Pedro Silva for posting the documentary!
Not only cuts her off but turns his shoulder and marches away from her. Body language is so expressive !
He clearly didn't want that bit on TV, although it is in the statements.

Remember that the statements were not in the public domain at that point. He thought he still had control.

I've just re-played parts of it many times to get what Gerry said.
at 5.02 ...yeah, see what ya mean, I was saying this earlier, at no point other than that night did I go, stick my head in. That was the only time because the door WAS like that for me as I knew I'd left it...
then
at 5.20 ...n' part of the reason we ended coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door...you just think you don't want to disturb them....

So HOW, with Gerry checking at 9.00 p.m., (taking longer than usual as per Jane Tanner's remark about how Kate had remarked that.. where was Gerry, a bit long, looking at football) and meeting Jez Wilkins with push chair at 9.15 outside the apartment, and Jane sees the abductor at this time, did Gerry NOT HEAR, and the children NOT GET DISTURBED by the noise that would have been generated by the shutters being jemmied and forced open, the window being broken into, even whilst Gerry himself was still in the apartment, (9 to 9.15) thinking how lovely Madeleine was, this being the only night that he had actually looked in to the room.

Sorry Gerry, 'plummeting' is the word I have in mind at the moment, from a great height.
There's no way round it.
Over-egging a lie, upon cover up, for whatever nefarious reasons, you've put too much detail in and painted yourself into the tightest little corner possible, the 'unable to be believed' corner.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by tigger on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:55 pm

...there's no doubt that not being here - at that moment - increased the risk of it.' big grin
No Gerry it didn't 'increase' the risk - had you been there you would have heard the shutters go up, you would have heard the noisy front door - until you were absent, there was no risk. '

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Re: The Experiment

Post by bobbin on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:07 pm

@Snifferdog wrote:I would put my bet on Jane Tanner being the truthful one here. Wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time. We already know that team M are practiced liars as evidenced in their contradictory statements. Jane's testimony did not benefit the Mccs version events at all and as Peter Mac mentions cuts the claimed impossible 'abduction' window of time down to minutes which called for a lot of jemmieing from the Mccs in the mocumentary. Jane was truly the T(Sp)anner in the works. Perhaps someone is wielding a big hammer to crush any dissent from the official line. I am not saying this is the case as it is only my opinion but what would you do if say someone threatens your family/children if you do not play along in a given scenario. Especially if it were the type of Savile type infected scenario which involved persons who wield a lot of influence in many quarters. See how he openly bragged and No One did anything during all those years for fear of getting bumped off. IMO. One would truly be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Perhaps we need to place the microscope on Mr Wilkins again, and the other person related to Justice M Hodge who hot footed it back to Switzerland. Probably the most influential person there of them all.

Snifferdog, I entirely agree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Hodge
It's worth copying and pasting the wiki entry on Margaret Hodge, before it gets whooshed, amended or tidied up.
I'm sure others have copied and saved it, but better to safe than sorry when one considers how Lord McAlpine's wiki has just been, tidied up, recently, still some people have the un-edited version I suspect.
Margaret Hodge is not a Justice by the way, she's a parliamentarian, not judiciary, but the whole wiki entry is WELL worth reading.
Stemcore and it's tax arrangements are interesting especially as she was trying to castrate four of the biggest accountancy firms, Coutts, DeLoite etc. recently, whilst chairing the Parliamentary committee on tax avoidance.
The hypocracy is stunning. She accused the 4 firms of employing so many accountants to help companies find the best competitive deals saying that the UK tax office only has a few investigators and is always lagging behind the accounting houses.
Well, one might think, 'get your own house in order first, dearie'.
The business with the childrens' homes is chilling to say the least.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Truthmustout on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:16 pm

@tigger wrote:...there's no doubt that not being here - at that moment - increased the risk of it.' big grin
No Gerry it didn't 'increase' the risk - had you been there you would have heard the shutters go up, you would have heard the noisy front door - until you were absent, there was no risk. '
s

Exactly , if they where there she would never been missing atleast by an abductor. How come he can't get himself to say that? Same shit as Kate wanting to go back in time to look around and see who watched them. Come on , if you could go back in time you surly would say you would never leave them in the first place. The lies they are telling is really on a kindergarden level and why the hell do they get away with it?

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:37 pm

@Snifferdog wrote:I have posted a famous picture of the dying Hector Pieterson. Photo taken during the Sharpville uprising in 1964 Soweto South Africa to demonstrate that it is entirely possible to carry someone and more so a child in the manner Jane Tanner described. K and G must be happy no one believes her, creates more confusion.
***

You are hitting a nail on the head here. This IS how one carries a dying or DEAD child.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Woofer on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:49 pm

It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by PeterMac on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:07 pm

@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.
Exactly. Dead bodies "leak", hence you use this method.
Live bodies need support for the head, to stop it flopping around - and waking up - hence carrying upright with the head supported on the shoulder, part of the weight supported purely by friction, and a forearm under the buttocks, allowing the other hand to be free.
See photo of GM carrying a living child off the plane.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Spaniel on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:12 pm

@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.
"JT described". I know what I'm thinking Woofer, but I ain't gonna say it.

The information given to others, such as to Jez Wilkins that they left the children alone, were they all on one day, or did they impart that info throughout the week?

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Re: The Experiment

Post by tigger on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:13 pm

@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.

I've always thought that JT described Maddie being carried like that - just earlier in the week. Part of the charade of the 3rd was to establish that the mcCanns could not have had time to dispose of the body. Quite so.
It comes up in quite a few interviews, a trump card.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Woofer on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:15 pm

@PeterMac wrote:
@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.
Exactly. Dead bodies "leak", hence you use this method.
Live bodies need support for the head, to stop it flopping around - and waking up - hence carrying upright with the head supported on the shoulder, part of the weight supported purely by friction, and a forearm under the buttocks, allowing the other hand to be free.
See photo of GM carrying a living child off the plane.

So who did the Smiths see - no one has ever come forward.

The map that JT drew for the PJ shows her further up the road almost to the gateway to flat 5A - she even shows where the `abductor` would be when she got to the corner of the carpark at the back of the flats. Yet in the `Madeleine was here` video made sometime later, she says she was far further back by the pathway along the front of the flats.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id30.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na4aBr5PTYY at 1.43

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Spaniel on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:32 pm

@PeterMac wrote:
@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.
Exactly. Dead bodies "leak", hence you use this method.
Live bodies need support for the head, to stop it flopping around - and waking up - hence carrying upright with the head supported on the shoulder, part of the weight supported purely by friction, and a forearm under the buttocks, allowing the other hand to be free.
See photo of GM carrying a living child off the plane.
That's not strictly true within the first hour or so at least, as a professional can prevent it. Besides if leaks, makes no difference how it's carried surely? A leak is a leak. Lying horizontally wouldn't prevent it.

From what you say Peter Mac, the Smith sighting must have been wrong? That they witnessed a live child being carried?

Sorry PM and all if I have misunderstood the point.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by russiandoll on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:47 pm

@PeterMac wrote:It is curious that without JT's "sighting" there would have been a window of opportunity of an hour.
With it, they are trapped in a window of opportunity of 2 minutes and 40 seconds.
What went wrong ?


JT made sure that the abduction theory would not hold water, what with her sighting and descriptions of the man.
Either not very bright, or deliberately throwing a spanner in the works because obliged to assist, yet wanting without breaking ranks to make it all sound and look like the nonsense it was ? Maybe because she and ROB had been steamrollered into allowing their daughter to be mistaken for Maddie ? Obliged because Gerry was calling in a favour? Wonder what that could be, that either Jane or Russell owed him big time?

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Re: The Experiment

Post by russiandoll on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:51 pm

from Spaniel's post :


From what you say Peter Mac, the Smith sighting must have been wrong? That they witnessed a live child being carried?

Sorry PM and all if I have misunderstood the point.


I believe that Gerry was carrying young Ella O Brien when seen by the Smiths and that the absence of JT and ROB at the crucial time that evening was because they were involved in this part of the drama.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Spaniel on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:53 pm

@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.
I won't be clicking on images Woofer, still haven't got over watching "Sophie's Choice" film 25 years ago.

Personally, if I had to carry a child in an emergency, mine or anyone elses, I would do so by whatever method I was capable of.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Snifferdog on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:53 pm

@Spaniel wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@Woofer wrote:It`s heartbreaking to do, but if one googles `carrying a dead child`and clicks on `images`, all of them are carrying in the position JT described.
Exactly. Dead bodies "leak", hence you use this method.
Live bodies need support for the head, to stop it flopping around - and waking up - hence carrying upright with the head supported on the shoulder, part of the weight supported purely by friction, and a forearm under the buttocks, allowing the other hand to be free.
See photo of GM carrying a living child off the plane.
That's not strictly true within the first hour or so at least, as a professional can prevent it. Besides if leaks, makes no difference how it's carried surely? A leak is a leak. Lying horizontally wouldn't prevent it.

From what you say Peter Mac, the Smith sighting must have been wrong? That they witnessed a live child being carried?

Sorry PM and all if I have misunderstood the point.

Hi Spaniel. I think that it could be a natural reaction to not want to carry a dying/dead person against ones body/shoulder, but I cannot speak from experience. If Jane Tanner was telling the truth we could assume that GM was not carrying Maddie but someone else. If Jane Tanner is telling the truth then perhaps it was RM helping out. It is quite possible that the Smiths saw another child being carried by GM, one of the twins perhaps or not GM and someone else carrying their own child home that reminded them of GM. Just thrashing out possibilities here.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by PeterMac on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:04 pm

Snifferdog - Can pigs fly?
If the McCanns say so, and Carter-Ruck are paid enough, then YES.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Snifferdog on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:10 pm

Och Aye Peter! Ta be sure ta be sure!

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Spaniel on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:27 pm

@russiandoll wrote:from Spaniel's post :


From what you say Peter Mac, the Smith sighting must have been wrong? That they witnessed a live child being carried?

Sorry PM and all if I have misunderstood the point.


I believe that Gerry was carrying young Ella O Brien when seen by the Smiths and that the absence of JT and ROB at the crucial time that evening was because they were involved in this part of the drama.
OK, but why would he parade the streets of PdL carrying a friend's daughter in his arms? He didn't know that he would be witnesed by anyone and where was he taking her? What was his point?

Back in 2007, Trip advisor wasn't the wind up it is today. In those days it appeared to be pretty truthful. Comments mention how dark PdL was, creepy, how difficult it was to find the apartment as the OC accomodation was spread throughout PdL and in the dark also. Dark is mentioned more than once, so how the colour of pyjamas could be seen, beggars beief.
For those keeping records, TA's a good one to record before that vanishes also.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by sallypelt on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:35 pm

I believe that it WAS GM who was seen carrying a child. Why do I believe it? Because if it had not been GM he would have milked the sighting for all he could.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Spaniel on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:41 pm

@sallypelt wrote:I believe that it WAS GM who was seen carrying a child. Why do I believe it? Because if it had not been GM he would have milked the sighting for all he could.
Spot on sallypelt.

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early dogs

Post by tigger on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:59 pm

This is why I think he undertook this exercise: from the Timeline of the 3rd May:

23.40 Gerry calls Trish Cameron (11.13 minutes)
"It was my younger brother Gerry distraught on the phone, breaking his heart. He said: 'Madeleine is abducted, she's been abducted'. 'They kept going back to check the kids every half hour. The restaurant was only 40 yards away. He went back at 9 o’clock to check the children. They were all sound asleep, windows shut, shutters shut'.
Kate then went over to the two-bedroom ground-floor apartment and 'came out screaming', said Mrs. Cameron. 'The door was lying open, the window in the bedroom and the shutters had been jimmied open'. "They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine." (timesonline 6 may)
Sandy Cameron statement: “On the night of Thursday, May 3, 2007, Patricia received a telephone call from Gerry informing us of the disappearance of Madeleine. Gerry manifested all those emotions one expects from a father who has lost a child in the circumstances. He was distraught and spoke at the same time he cried. He seemed frustrated with the slowness of the searches in Portugal, with the fact that the borders had not been closed, and with the fact that sniffer dogs were not being used. Patricia and I contacted the British Embassy to try and help in this regard.”
unquote

But that call had been deleted from the mobile. It was made however, since the 23.40 call does appear on the pings.
His second call to Cameron was at 00.05. Three seconds.

How would he know the borders had not been closed (as if they could).
Why did he expect sniffer dogs to turn up within one hour of phoning the GNR? (they're hardly on standby duties I would think).
The phone call to the GNR was logged at 10.40 pm.
unquote

I think he expected to have laid a trail for the dogs, into PdL to add veracity to the story. Why on earth he thought these dogs would be ready within an hour (the GNR turned up around 11.00 p.m.) is beyond me.

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Re: The Experiment

Post by Snifferdog on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:02 pm

[quote="sallypelt"]I believe that it WAS GM who was seen carrying a child. Why do I believe it? Because if it had not been GM he would have milked the sighting for all he could.[/quote
I agree Sallppelt. He surely would have.

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