Still here

by Guest 20.07.12 7:16

hi JD and Bristow

Very sweet of you both - nice to be missed...

I have been reading the forum but not contributing much... not as much time as I used to have and not sure how much I can add but will chip in when feed I can add anything.

I've never understood why some DNA was discounted when the exact same wording was used for all samples. The bizarre set of circumstances whereby the pj were led to the burgau apartment in the first place is weird and the link of those apartments to Murat's father's company is weird..

Well bristow's avatar is making me hungry so off to get a pork pie.

by uppatoffee 20.07.12 7:21

Sofia Murat was born 31 October 2002.
Madeleine was born 12 May 2003
Ella Tanner was born between July-September 2003.

There are photos of Sofia around that age but I personally do not see a resemblance to Madeleine. The first photo looks the earliest. The second link has a photo with Sofia with a similar hair style but she is already 4 1/2 by then.

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by Genbug 20.07.12 9:00

bristow wrote:
alison wrote:I`ve just used Genes Reunited and there is an entry for Marion Genders owned by someone called Marion Vann. That is Jane Tanner`s mother`s name after her second marriage.

She gives her year and place of birth ( as Marion Genders of course) as 1947 and Liverpool. I`ve yet to find a likely birth record but the year seems more in keeping with a marriage in 1968, the birth of Jane in 1971 and two subsequent children.

Jane`s father first name is Graham L Tanner.

Ah yes that sounds more like it. Possibly they were adopted which is often the case when there doesn't seem to be any records. A friend of mine couldn't find his known name on ancestry but after finding out about his birth mother, there it was in black and white.

Morning Bristow and Alison, yes, adoption is a possibility but a more common scenario may be that Marion Genders parents weren't married at the time and that she was registered under her mother's maiden name.

by Genbug 20.07.12 9:11

Just to clarify the above, a woman's maiden name isn't always necessarily the name in which her birth was registered. A typical example (names changed for obvious reasons) is that on a friend's child's birth record, he is named as John Smith, mother's maiden name Jones. However, if you look at her birth record, she is registered as Brown, not Jones. Jones was indeed her father's name and the name that she had always used, but as her parents were unmarried at the time of her birth she was registered under her mother's name and not her fathers. These days children tend to be re-registered when their parents marry but of course that isn't compulsory.

by justme3 20.07.12 13:41

Just for the record, there was a Marion Healy, registered in Liverpool North, in the June quarter of 1947. Didn't someone say on this thread, yesterday, that Marion Genders states on Genes United, that she was born in Liverpool in 1947, and isn't Kate's maiden name Healey? Just a thought!

by Hummingbird 20.07.12 14:06

jd wrote:This is a great topic, well done Bristow for starting it and to everyone else who has been contributing. I agree too, where has Stewie gone? I miss his posts the most.

I just want to add some 'thoughts' into the mix to add to the great work done so far as we try to piece this together. Jane Tanners daughter 'E' was born only a few weeks after Maddie, so the same age. kate mccann and JT were pregnant at the same time. Robert Murat and his then ex-wife had spent many years unable to conceive but by what seems a miracle they also had their daughter around the same time too, not sure of the date his daughter was born. Remember Murats first comments about having a daughter that looked like Maddie etc.

Personally, I find it curious that JT and ROB are partners, not married. I understand not everyone gets married etc but even to this day I am unaware of any marriage and they are still 'partners', with 2 kids between them and with the rest of their friends married I would have thought they'd have made the plunge by now. This does not seem right to me in their circle of friends. One reason they may not be married is if the kids are not ROB's...just a thought

JT and ROB moved house from Leicester to Exeter shortly before the PDL holiday. Just by an absolute coincidence, their 'new' neighbours in Exeter, the Gorrods, also went to PDL the very same week (and went missing for 36 hours after arriving in Faro before eventually turning up at Ocean Club in their hire car). The Gorrods, Eveleighs and others all have links to Plymouth which is for another topic (everything has connections going straight back to the Symingtons too)

On the morning of 4th May 2007, ROB had robert murats phone number in his mobile phone

Great thread! For a long time now I have wondered about the tanners daughter and Madeliene. Does anyone have any proof of their birthdates?
Not sure if these can be found anywhere. I have often wondered if the dates given are not entirely correct and could they be twins?
I am convinced that this holiday was not a holiday but a get together by couples who have given birth through IVF methods and possibly that the Drs on this so called holiday were involved in some way in lets say - 'new methods' 'cheaper methods' 'back door methods' and making a business out of it. And as pointed out, Murat says they waited a long time to conceive their daughter who he states is almost identical to MM. Does anyone know if Tanners daughter looks anything like MM?
If Murat and Tanner are involved in some way, then perhaps the relationship goes a bit deeper? Was there a fall out or did someone find out?
Or if as being suggested the Healey name fits into this are Tanner and Healey related and would this not throw the dna into a different light. Absolutely certain now that they all knew Murat before PDL and I can only assume through IVF.

See my reasons for thinking the holiday is an ivf meeting is the amount of people there that are connected in one way or the other to not just the MMs but to other members of the Tapas and the mention of so many blonde haired 3 year olds in the creche - were they working on developing and perfecting the choice of sex of your unborn child - far fetched but so is everything here.

If MM, Tanners daughter and or Murats daughter are all 'related' in some way then does that explain why the dna has been so difficult to find/prove?

And WHY if you have nothing to hide would you make the birth certificate and the medical records of a child that is supposedly abducted a ward of court - just what exactly is it you are hiding? Was she not yours?

by uppatoffee 20.07.12 14:35

Hummingbird I posted birthdays for the three girls on a previous page of this thread. They are all born at different times. I would be very surprised if there is any link between them. IVF doesn't really work like that. You can't just share eggs so easily. It's a complex process that often involves taking many different drugs in order for the woman to accept the fertilised eggs. Yes eggs can be frozen but I would be surprised whether labs would be willing to share on an informal basis.

by Hummingbird 20.07.12 14:48

uppatoffee wrote:Hummingbird I posted birthdays for the three girls on a previous page of this thread. They are all born at different times. I would be very surprised if there is any link between them. IVF doesn't really work like that. You can't just share eggs so easily. It's a complex process that often involves taking many different drugs in order for the woman to accept the fertilised eggs. Yes eggs can be frozen but I would be surprised whether labs would be willing to share on an informal basis.

Yes I saw that but just because those are the dates given by the parents doesn't mean they are fact and if out of the 3, 2 are twins then the dna is likely to be different and I do understand IVF it takes more than just eggs! No one knows who the father is. I was not suggesting sharing between labs. I am suggesting that these Drs were involved in IVF treatment in some way and if not as far fetched as that then yes, eggs and the drugs are difficult, that I understand but as I said how do you prove who the father is. The dna or lack of it for MM is a big thing in this case. If MM was on that holiday then it is not possible that there was no dna found for her.

As I said why hide the medical records and birth certificates.

Just a theory, not suggesting it happened or didn't, but you have to question the dna or lack of it in a big way and the fact that so many 3 year old blonde girls aged approx. 3 and so many people connected to one or the other of the Tapas 9 decided to go to the same resort, use the same creche, and go at the very same time as the Tapas 9!

by uppatoffee 20.07.12 15:10

The dates of birth can be verified partly by the entry in the GRO Register of Births. The rest cannot be proven unless all involved have DNA tests.

by Guest 20.07.12 15:16

Just taking this topic back to the Murat/Tanner connection:

Justme3 - yes there is a Marion Healey born in Liverpool in1947, but in Kate Mccann`s case her maiden name was Healy

Genbug - that was a very helpful post about name registration at birth but unfortunately there were a number of Marions born in Liverpool in 1947 so I am not sure how we might narrow anyone of these down to Jane Tanner`s mother.
But as I said before, I am not sure that Tanner and Murat having any direct family link because of their shared halpotype. I will try to find the relevant extract in the PJ report. Because if the shared halpotype did indicate such a link why didn`t the PJ pursue it?

ETA: Having read a previous post on this thread, it is clear that Murat and Tanner`s halpotypes are from different groups - not the same. So that rather discounts a shared link. The question which the PJ raised was why Jane Tanner`s halpotype was found in the Burgau apartment. But all that means is a shared maternal line which could go back centuries. Which is probably why the PJ did not take it any further once they had sought clarification from their forensic services.

by Hummingbird 20.07.12 15:50

Cheers uppatoffee, suppose I will just have to put my theory to rest!!

Good luck with the ancestry hunting, all very interesting, there has to be a link somewhere. Somebody sure as hell knew Murat before pdl.

by idroppedmyspoon 20.07.12 16:13

(quote) Great thread! For a long time now I have wondered about the tanners daughter and Madeliene. Does anyone have any proof of their birthdates?
Not sure if these can be found anywhere. I have often wondered if the dates given are not entirely correct and could they be twins?
I am convinced that this holiday was not a holiday but a get together by couples who have given birth through IVF methods and possibly that the Drs on this so called holiday were involved in some way in lets say - 'new methods' 'cheaper methods' 'back door methods' and making a business out of it. And as pointed out, Murat says they waited a long time to conceive their daughter who he states is almost identical to MM. Does anyone know if Tanners daughter looks anything like MM?
If Murat and Tanner are involved in some way, then perhaps the relationship goes a bit deeper? Was there a fall out or did someone find out?
Or if as being suggested the Healey name fits into this are Tanner and Healey related and would this not throw the dna into a different light. Absolutely certain now that they all knew Murat before PDL and I can only assume through IVF.

See my reasons for thinking the holiday is an ivf meeting is the amount of people there that are connected in one way or the other to not just the MMs but to other members of the Tapas and the mention of so many blonde haired 3 year olds in the creche - were they working on developing and perfecting the choice of sex of your unborn child - far fetched but so is everything here.

If MM, Tanners daughter and or Murats daughter are all 'related' in some way then does that explain why the dna has been so difficult to find/prove?

And WHY if you have nothing to hide would you make the birth certificate and the medical records of a child that is supposedly abducted a ward of court - just what exactly is it you are hiding? Was she not yours?[/quote]

This and Gerrys comment when being recorded on the bus "F-off, I'm not here to enjoy myself" seems to make more sense now.

Hello by the way, I'm new, well I'm spoon but a long time lurker and head scratcher on the MMc case.

by jd 20.07.12 16:26

Nice to know you are still here Stewie! So many of your posts & observations have been spot on, you are the Dr Roberts of the forum imo!

@Hummingbird - I have the exact same thoughts as you re the IVF. The whole thing does not feel right to me from what we know, and though many disagree I do find it so odd the resort was 95% of kids under 4 years old. In my experience of resort holidays there are kids of all ages, shaped and sizes. If I was on that holiday that week I would still have been this curious.

From my recollection, ROB said in one of his statements that their daughter was born a few weeks after Maddie, I got the impression it was end of May/June. I was just trying to find it now and came across something new to me in his RI when he says Jane Tanner is his 'wife', I never knew they were married and thought they were just partners as is always described of their relationship. Confused. I do respect this is going slightly off topic, but to establish if there is some family connection between tanner/murat, we need to explore all angles in trying to piece it together. The ancestry findings are most interesting indeed

Alison - is this the relevant extract in the PJ report you were looking for. Its on page 49/50 which says "From pages 4167 to 4182, the forensics report from the National Institute for Forensic Medicine was appended, whose conclusions do not allow for significant advances in the investigation, but which identify several different haplotypes, some of which match intervenients in the process and others without any identificative value. Immediately, the question concerning the differentiating value of some haplotypes [haplotype (Greek haploos = single) is a combination of alleles at multiple loci that are transmitted together on the same chromosome] was raised, namely concerning JANE TANNER, page 4175, which was located in a residence in Burgau, which, in our understanding, would not be viable and logical, or to say the least, would be very strange. Therefore, in order to clarify this situation, a clarification was requested from that Institute, pages 4320 and following, which, in its reply, is peremptory in stating that there are haplotypes that are identical among each other, in a percentage that is still significant, pages 4325 to 4328. This means that the hair that was found inside that residence, while possessing the same haplotype as JANE TANNER, belongs to someone else."

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by pauline 20.07.12 16:34

jd wrote:
@Hummingbird - I have the exact same thoughts as you re the IVF. The whole thing does not feel right to me from what we know, and though many disagree I do find it so odd the resort was 95% of kids under 4 years old. In my experience of resort holidays there are kids of all ages, shaped and sizes. If I was on that holiday that week I would still have been this curious.

The holiday took place in the school term which might be why the children at the resort were of pre school age ie under 5. from late July resorts would be full of all age children as schools have closed for the summer. Parents are not supposed to take children on holiday in term time, and most don't.

by jd 20.07.12 16:40

pauline wrote:
jd wrote:
@Hummingbird - I have the exact same thoughts as you re the IVF. The whole thing does not feel right to me from what we know, and though many disagree I do find it so odd the resort was 95% of kids under 4 years old. In my experience of resort holidays there are kids of all ages, shaped and sizes. If I was on that holiday that week I would still have been this curious.

The holiday took place in the school term which might be why the children at the resort were of pre school age ie under 5. from late July resorts would be full of all age children as schools have closed for the summer. Parents are not supposed to take children on holiday in term time, and most don't.

Thanks Pauline, Ive been told this many times clapping

but it still doesn't feel right to me. Maybe it is this scam that gives me an over active imagination at times, I don't know except it feels very odd. From my experiences, I have been to a resort in Spain in May before and it was normal & what I would expect with kids of all ages

by Hummingbird 20.07.12 16:49

uppatoffee wrote:Hummingbird I posted birthdays for the three girls on a previous page of this thread. They are all born at different times. I would be very surprised if there is any link between them. IVF doesn't really work like that. You can't just share eggs so easily. It's a complex process that often involves taking many different drugs in order for the woman to accept the fertilised eggs. Yes eggs can be frozen but I would be surprised whether labs would be willing to share on an informal basis.

uppatoffee just taken a look at your previous post again as interested in B'days and in relation to what jd has just posted. You say that you posted the birthdays for the three girls but you have not given a birthday for Tanners daughter just that she was born between July and September.

So I ask again when was Tanners daughter born and how do we know there is no connection especially as no one seems to have a definitive birthday for her?

The dna and lack of it is an integral part of this mystery and therefore all avenues need to be looked at. We have two girls here one of whom we have no idea when she was born but it is stated it is a few weeks after MM. There seems to be some very cagey replies (by Tanner and ROB) about their daughter.

Pauline - maybe your are right and all of these children were pre school BUT did non of them have any older siblings? Are we to believe that each and every family here nearly all of whom seem to have a connection to the Tapas group all have an oldest child of 3 or under? Children are taken out of school, quite frequently in my experience due to the expensive prices of these same holidays during term times and especially children under the age of 12 (primary children age) so have we any idea if any of these holiday makers had children older than 4 with them?

by jd 20.07.12 16:52

Are we to believe that each and every family here nearly all of whom seem to have a connection to the Tapas group all have an oldest child of 3 or under? Children are taken out of school, quite frequently in my experience due to the expensive prices of these same holidays during term times and especially children under the age of 12 (primary children age) so have we any idea if any of these holiday makers had children older than 4 with them?

It wasn't just the Tapas 9, it seems to be all the holidaymakers that have given statements in the PJ files, the only exception I have seen is the one who went to Switzerland a day early (Is it Edmunds??), he had 3 boys, I think one of them was 7 and one was 9

by Guest 20.07.12 16:56

jd wrote:
Are we to believe that each and every family here nearly all of whom seem to have a connection to the Tapas group all have an oldest child of 3 or under? Children are taken out of school, quite frequently in my experience due to the expensive prices of these same holidays during term times and especially children under the age of 12 (primary children age) so have we any idea if any of these holiday makers had children older than 4 with them?

It wasn't just the Tapas 9, it seems to be all the holidaymakers that have given statements in the PJ files, the only exception I have seen is the one who went to Switzerland a day early (Is it Edmunds??), he had 3 boys, I think one of them was 7 and one was 9

Yes, and didn't he have a photo of Madeleine playing in background near his boys, taken on the last day, ie. 3rd May, which he handed over to the PJ and also the McCann IIRC.

by Guest 20.07.12 17:00

There were 14 infants [4-18 months], 10 two-year-olds, 12 three-year-olds, 2 four-year-olds and 6 older ones [6-17 years] at the Ocean Club at the time. It was end April/early May. The mix may be more divers later on in May around Ascension & Pentacost.

by jd 20.07.12 17:07

candyfloss wrote:Yes, and didn't he have a photo of Madeleine playing in background near his boys, taken on the last day, ie. 3rd May, which he handed over to the PJ and also the McCann IIRC.

Oh I didn't know about this....Interesting. I assume the photo never made it anywhere that we could see it! Would be good to compare the Maddie in this photo to the other ones supposedly taken on the same day

by Guest 20.07.12 17:12

jd wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Yes, and didn't he have a photo of Madeleine playing in background near his boys, taken on the last day, ie. 3rd May, which he handed over to the PJ and also the McCann IIRC.

Oh I didn't know about this....Interesting. I assume the photo never made it anywhere that we could see it! Would be good to compare the Maddie in this photo to the other ones supposedly taken on the same day

Yes just found it, post at 8.49 am on this page of thread, email in blue....

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by uppatoffee 20.07.12 17:45

Hummingbird - Ella's birthday is not known. However parents have upto 42 days after the birth to register the birth so it would not be possible for her to have the same birthday as Madeleine if the parents complied with the law. Her birth appears in the September quarter records rather than June quarter.

Ella's birth is also entered as Tanner and O'Brien, so at the time of her birth at least her parents were not married.

Hope that makes sense!

by jd 20.07.12 17:47

candyfloss wrote:

Yes just found it, post at 8.49 am on this page of thread, email in blue....

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Thanks Candyfloss, how very interesting! You know if we had access to all the missing files and other things like this photo, we could solve this scam so very quickly....no need for a review costing millions! Give this money to real families who genuinely need it. When I think this, it says to me that there is a cover up going on with a lot of 'interference'

by Guest 20.07.12 17:51

jd wrote:
candyfloss wrote:

Yes just found it, post at 8.49 am on this page of thread, email in blue....

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Thanks Candyfloss, how very interesting! You know if we had access to all the missing files and other things like this photo, we could solve this scam so very quickly....no need for a review costing millions! Give this money to real families who genuinely need it. When I think this, it says to me that there is a cover up going on with a lot of 'interference'

Yes, jd, wouldn't it be interesting to see this photo, and a date stamp or something to verify when it was taken. But if what is said in that email is to be believed, then it sort of throws the sub theory out the window.

by jd 20.07.12 17:55

candyfloss wrote:
Yes, jd, wouldn't it be interesting to see this photo, and a date stamp or something to verify when it was taken. But if what is said in that email is to be believed, then it sort of throws the sub theory out the window.

It would do if its true I agree. I would like to compare the Maddie in this photo with the Maddie on the mccann camera when she came out of the playhouse, and of course the poolside and Tennis Girl photo's