Re: Did Mrs Fenn hear ' the sub ' crying on Tuesday night?

by rainbow-fairy 14.04.12 15:11

I don't know if this is the scenario PeterMac was hinting at - but.
I tend to believe Maddie was already gone, but if we take the crying incident at face value, what about this?

Kate said Maddie was not alone. The crying started up after her flurry of phone calls.
Mrs Fenn stated the child was crying 'Daddy' - why would a child do that? Could Gerry (and someone else) been there? Think Gaspar statements...
The abrupt cessation of crying is worrying. Passed out, or worse - ?
Mrs Fenn said the crying stopped when she heard the parents arrive through the patio door. As other members have stated, that doesn't ring true as they generally sniffle for quite some time after.
Perhaps somebody left as opposed to entered the apartment - to get away, get help, who knows?

Granted it is not a pleasant thing to think about, but it could fit - couldn't it?

by aiyoyo 14.04.12 15:30

tigger wrote:
Nina wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
Nina wrote:
At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor. As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
So Mrs Fenn heard the patio doors open but didn't see anyone. Snipped.

For me this is a crucial one. The late Mrs Fenn heard them enter through the Patio doors.
A distinctive sound, totally different from a front door. A sort of "whoosh". ( to coin a phrase !)
In their first statements to the PJ they stated, under the rules of evidence which are "that they are liable to prosecution if they have said anything in the statement they know to be false or do not believe to be true " that they came in through the front door using the key.

From the very first, the PJ knew they were lying, and had documentary evidence of that fact.
C-R, please note. Your clients LIED.
Right from the very first thing the McCanns said to the PJ, they knew, (and I put it in italics so that you can believe it, just as it is in the 'very truthful' book, thus "they knew" that they were being told LIES by the very people who should have been pouring the hearts out to them.
The only questions that remained were - Why? What? Who? How? When? Where?
Or to up the tone of the forum at this late hour- ,
Quis, quid, cur, quomodo, ubi, quando, quibus auxiliis.
Who, what, why, how, where, when, with what ?
Mre Fenn, God bless her, heard the patio door whoosh, as you say. She didn't say she heard the bottom gate or the baby gate open or open and close, she heard the patio door whoosh and she assumed it was being opened and the parents had come home and the crying stopped. As quick as a door opens then are we to accept that the crying stopped and not another sound is mentioned. No mumbling of comfort, no conversation between the parents, no kinking as we have tried to explain. Not another thing is mentioned.

Neither the bottom gate nor the baby gate was heard by mrs. Fenn. Only the patio doors. Which makes one think that both those gates were open and therefore even more unlikely that Madeleine was inside . Clear escape route.
As Dr. Roberts says, the crying episode was foresight used before 10.00 pm. Stuffed down the PJ's throat as early as possibly in varying forms.
The idea that a paedo would have already been in 5a whilst Gerry was there can only have been dreamt up post 5/5/07. By then the crying could be attributed to Maddie as the target of the paedo.
I'm sure for myself that it was part of the staging.

What really beats me is why they couldn't have thought of a more convincing scenario. Why not have her abducted from the beach? Why not disguise yourself (CCTV isn't that fantastic) and take her out of a supermarket, wherever. You could get yourself any number of alibis from your mates.
For a paedophile too, much easier to take a child from a playground, anywhere but the impossible situation we are asked to believe.
Must read up on the similarities with JonBenet Ramsey, sure that was the template?

If Maddie was crying for 1-1/2 hour on Tues, it's a miracle that she slept like a log the next night when the abductor was in her room doing his dry run! The contrast is just insanely bizarre.

Was it Mrs Fenn who told the Police about the crying incident I wonder?

by **tigger** 14.04.12 16:02

Mrs. Fenn didn't make a statement until the 20th of August 2007. I would have thought she'd mention it earlier and I'd also be interested to know when exactly Gerry visiter her.
However, the crying incident was already mentioned on the evening of the 3rd by Kate. For me, that makes it one of the props.

First mentioned is Maddie crying - Kate to Fiona. 3rd before 10.00 p.m.
Next mentioned 4th or 5th May - Gerry tells British police about twins crying. They absolutely want the PJ to know this!
Next it's Sean and Maddie in the next episode Gerry? Kate? when where?
Then it's only Maddie - certainly by September - and the paedophile hiding behind the door.

by aiyoyo 14.04.12 16:09

Oh I see. So the mccanns want to give the impression the abductor did more an one dry run, a few in fact, judging their changing stories, hence disturbed their children.

Gerry didn't visit Mrs Fenn on the 3rd, I dont think so, which in itself is strange as you would have thought the immediate next door and immediate upstair neighbours would be your first stop given they are the most likely to hear or see anything.

by **tigger** 14.04.12 17:08

aiyoyo wrote:Oh I see. So the mccanns want to give the impression the abductor did more an one dry run, a few in fact, judging their changing stories, hence disturbed their children.

Gerry didn't visit Mrs Fenn on the 3rd, I dont think so, which in itself is strange as you would have thought the immediate next door and immediate upstair neighbours would be your first stop given they are the most likely to hear or see anything.

I'm trying to find out when exactly Gerry visited Mrs. Fenn post 3/5. Undoubtedly to find out what she heard and saw on the night, but perhaps also about the crying episode. It comes under the interference with witnesses imo. Perhaps he tried to convince her the crying was the 2nd and Mrs. Fenn wasn't having it.

Unless it was part of the storyline, I can't see why they should change the crying to the 2nd.
I'm more and more convinced the 2nd was the date set for the abduction and had to be changed. So the crying had to move forward one day too.
When Gerry said on the phone: 'it's a disaster', I think he meant everything that had not gone to plan and it's quite a long list. That might include having to move the date.
If you're trying to stage a crime with the help of a largely uninformed committee, a disaster is exactly what you can expect.

by Nina 14.04.12 17:22

tigger wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:Oh I see. So the mccanns want to give the impression the abductor did more an one dry run, a few in fact, judging their changing stories, hence disturbed their children.

Gerry didn't visit Mrs Fenn on the 3rd, I dont think so, which in itself is strange as you would have thought the immediate next door and immediate upstair neighbours would be your first stop given they are the most likely to hear or see anything.

I'm trying to find out when exactly Gerry visited Mrs. Fenn post 3/5. Undoubtedly to find out what she heard and saw on the night, but perhaps also about the crying episode. It comes under the interference with witnesses imo. Perhaps he tried to convince her the crying was the 2nd and Mrs. Fenn wasn't having it.

Unless it was part of the storyline, I can't see why they should change the crying to the 2nd.
I'm more and more convinced the 2nd was the date set for the abduction and had to be changed. So the crying had to move forward one day too.
When Gerry said on the phone: 'it's a disaster', I think he meant everything that had not gone to plan and it's quite a long list. That might include having to move the date.
If you're trying to stage a crime with the help of a largely uninformed committee, a disaster is exactly what you can expect.

Hi. Didn't Mrs Fenn telephone her friend who said she wasn't surprised, which was an odd thing to say. It is almost as if this crying incident was to be expected with this family.
Mrs Fenn also looked over her balcony and asked Gerry if he wanted the use of her telephone on the 3rd, straight after the alarm had been raised, but he declined. Never asked if she had seen or heard anything. And we have Kate and her bestest friend foul mouthing Mrs Fenn.

by Nina 14.04.12 18:10

I have never been able to watch any videos or hear any sound relating to this case from the Internet due to a very very old computer and a steam driven connection. Well I am now the lucky owner of a brand new laptop and a thing that pushed into the side that have both enabled me, for the first time to watch a video and hear Madeleine's voice, and also the crying video both thanks to HiDeHo.
The crying video has left me very very sad. I know that it wasn't Madeleine crying on this video, it was another child crying for a few minuted. Madeleine though was said to cry like this for an hour and a quarter.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Wicked people walk free on this earth and they walk over anyone in their way and over the memory of those passed away.

by jd 15.09.12 14:00

tigger wrote:Mrs. Fenn didn't make a statement until the 20th of August 2007. I would have thought she'd mention it earlier and I'd also be interested to know when exactly Gerry visiter her.
However, the crying incident was already mentioned on the evening of the 3rd by Kate. For me, that makes it one of the props.

First mentioned is Maddie crying - Kate to Fiona. 3rd before 10.00 p.m.
Next mentioned 4th or 5th May - Gerry tells British police about twins crying. They absolutely want the PJ to know this!
Next it's Sean and Maddie in the next episode Gerry? Kate? when where?
Then it's only Maddie - certainly by September - and the paedophile hiding behind the door.

Has anyone ever thought that this crying episode is there to serve the purpose of keeping Maddie alive on May 1st?

The purpose to deflect away from the truth

I do, maybe Mrs Fenn heard crying, could have been any child, could have been totally exaggerated and twisted by the mccanns to keep Maddie alive on May 1st. They twisted it to Maddie asking them the question on the morning of May 3rd too....which all keeps her alive on May 1st and May 3rd

by Nina 15.09.12 15:07

jd wrote:
tigger wrote:Mrs. Fenn didn't make a statement until the 20th of August 2007. I would have thought she'd mention it earlier and I'd also be interested to know when exactly Gerry visiter her.
However, the crying incident was already mentioned on the evening of the 3rd by Kate. For me, that makes it one of the props.

First mentioned is Maddie crying - Kate to Fiona. 3rd before 10.00 p.m.
Next mentioned 4th or 5th May - Gerry tells British police about twins crying. They absolutely want the PJ to know this!
Next it's Sean and Maddie in the next episode Gerry? Kate? when where?
Then it's only Maddie - certainly by September - and the paedophile hiding behind the door.

Has anyone ever thought that this crying episode is there to serve the purpose of keeping Maddie alive on May 1st?

The purpose to deflect away from the truth

I do, maybe Mrs Fenn heard crying, could have been any child, could have been totally exaggerated and twisted by the mccanns to keep Maddie alive on May 1st. They twisted it to Maddie asking them the question on the morning of May 3rd too....which all keeps her alive on May 1st and May 3rd

I believe Mrs Fenn with regard to the crying, and as you say it could have been any child, though she did say that it wasn't a young child, so imo excludes the twins. So there was a child crying, a very distressed child, and for 75 minutes. And if the twins had been there they would have been woken and also cried, but they didn't so imo they were not there or they were heavily drugged to ensure sleep no matter what any level of disturbance.
That was on the late evening of the 1st May so there were sounds of a very distressed child for 75 minutes on that night, and the crying stopped when the patio/terrace door was heard to open then silence.

by Guest 15.09.12 15:25

Well jd on your question "has anyone ever..."
my answer is "Yes I have"
What's more, my OP for this topic was the purporting of the theory of a sub and hence the report from Mrs Fenn
The theory of a 'sub' kind of suggests Maddie herself was NOT there, me thinks.
In my humble and honest opinion the whole thing is a hoax, but I swap it for any better explanation.
The sooner the better.
And for all the world to know.
Kindest regards and enjoy your weekend!
parapono

by Woofer 15.09.12 16:26

jd wrote:
tigger wrote:Mrs. Fenn didn't make a statement until the 20th of August 2007. I would have thought she'd mention it earlier and I'd also be interested to know when exactly Gerry visiter her.
However, the crying incident was already mentioned on the evening of the 3rd by Kate. For me, that makes it one of the props.

First mentioned is Maddie crying - Kate to Fiona. 3rd before 10.00 p.m.
Next mentioned 4th or 5th May - Gerry tells British police about twins crying. They absolutely want the PJ to know this!
Next it's Sean and Maddie in the next episode Gerry? Kate? when where?
Then it's only Maddie - certainly by September - and the paedophile hiding behind the door.

Has anyone ever thought that this crying episode is there to serve the purpose of keeping Maddie alive on May 1st?

The purpose to deflect away from the truth

I do, maybe Mrs Fenn heard crying, could have been any child, could have been totally exaggerated and twisted by the mccanns to keep Maddie alive on May 1st. They twisted it to Maddie asking them the question on the morning of May 3rd too....which all keeps her alive on May 1st and May 3rd

No matter how hardened we believe these so called professionals to be, I really don`t believe any of them would knowlingly allow any child to cry for 75 mins - its one hell of a long time. This is why I don`t think it was a prop. IMO it was MM, she was on her own, the twins probably in the Payne`s flat.

by Luca90 15.09.12 16:35

The children are very young. If they are all together to be minded by one adult and a child wakes up looking for her parent child will cry until that parent comes back. Perhaps the parent was not near the area so it took time to contact and return? The parent returns and child stops crying. Or they take child to the parent.

But problem is a reliable witness and spotlight needs to be taken from this incident because they need tapas alibi. So they exchange nights they admit to smaller crime, it makes the witness seem unreliable, takes focus off that night and brings paedophile into the situation. But who will believe a 4 year old child will lie in her bed crying and then stop crying by herself? Perhaps the same person who believes that all parents left their children alone in the dark each evening.

JD posts on other thread that is strange children never play together outside of club. But is also necessary part of alibi that each parent was occupied with own family situation and always at the Ocean Club. Who will really believe that Madeleine was happy to go to club each day and then return to her home with siblings not wanting anything more from that situation? Is very sad because it shows her less real than if she wasn't even there.

All of these records make a lot of detail to check and takes focus away from the real possibility. I think these people are magicians in previous life.

by joyce1938 15.09.12 18:06

good to see you parapona,there are somany alturnatives ,we really do need to explore a few i think ,its so easy to keep to our first thoughts ,we have to keep an open mind dont we? joyce1938

by jd 16.09.12 1:42

Maybe Mrs Fenn heard jane tanners daughter? Their apartment was next door but one. Maybe jane tanners daughter was staying in apartment 5a and was missing her dad ROB. We don't know for sure it was Maddie Mrs Fenn heard, there doesn't seem to be anything to prove she was alive that night

What is interesting is the mccanns bringing up the 'where were you when ~~I or Sean~~ twins cried last night' in their very first statements. Their very first statements are the ones they are selling their lie on. I would guess it was said to try and back up their abduction story, trying to place into the PJ heads that there could have been an abductor lurking on previous nights with Maddies comment. They must have been aware that Mrs Fenn heard the crying commotion on May 1st and would say something about it to the PJ, and the mccanns twisted it around into their favour and pre-emptied her too. kate mccann seemed to have a thing about Mrs Fenn so they must have had some history that week prior to May 3rd

kate mccann 4th May 2007
She reports only one episode where, on the morning of Thursday May 3rd, Madeleine asked the interviewee why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying. The interviewee states that she had heard nothing and had therefore not gone into the bedroom. She thought her daughter's comment strange because it was the first time she had talked about it.

gerry mccann 4th May 2007
Between the 28th April, the day they arrived and the time the disappearance was discovered, he says that nothing unusual happened, only referring to an episode on the morning of the 3rd May, when Madeleine asked the witness the reason why they had not gone to her room when the twins were crying. As he did not hear anything, the witness did not go to the bedroom, however he finds his daughter's comment to be strange, maybe because it was the first time that she had made it.

Note: the mccanns say it was the twins crying, not Maddie

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