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MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by PeterMac on Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:41 pm


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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Hummingbird on Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:31 pm

@Hummingbird wrote:
@tigger wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Payne statement only surfaced after Amaral had established that no independent witness had seen her after 4.30 that day.

The usual mix up occurred, Gerry, Payne and Kate all have different times and stories including the reason why Gerry asked Payne to look in.
I've been trying to find it myself - I'll have another go.

The Gaspar statement wasn't sent to the PJ until September, I believe the date of the covering letter is after the mcCanns left Portugal.
That's easily found in the McCannfiles. 24th October 2007 is the date of the covering letter from LP.

Do you mean Payne in your last paragraph?


4th May DP interview - mentions NOTHING about time beore 20:55 and arrival at restaurant

4th May FP Interview - They (meaning DP & herself) went to the beach with the children and her mother arriving about 15.45 left at 18.15 went to tennis courts until approx 19:00. Immediately after the witness headed to the apartment with her children and her mother. 10 mins later her husband (19:10) appeared in the apartment her mother helped by DP bathed the children whle FP went for a jog on beach till 20h.

(later in her RI she states that DP was already at beach and she went with just the girls)

4th May DW Interview - She went to the beach with the children her son in law and daughter. They arrived around 15.45 and left around 18.15 to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 19.00. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and 10 mins later her son in law David joined them and with her son in laws help they bathed the children (in her RI she says she thinks she may have gone back to apartment and does not mention D helping bathe the kids)

(she also states they all went to beach together)

10 & 11 May DP & FP NOT interviewed

DW Interview - at 19.00 she had gone together with the Payne couple and their children to the apartment in order to prepare them for bed. Then as usual the adults prepared themselves for dinner.


RI D PAYNE - (summarised for speed) Me and F had gone to beach we had the kids we had lunch in the apartment. (I think he means we got the kids and had lunch as the kids were signed into the clubs) That afternoon I wanted to go to the Ocean err to the beach and windsurf M & R had gone down. So I went down while F & DW were looking after the girls in apt. After we finished we met on beach and played with girls, then went to restaurant. Decided to play tennis so I left with Russell. I don't know how it happened but I went over to see G at the tennis courts just to see what was happening and decided that we'd I'd come back to play tennis and G had asked me to pop in and check everything was alright with KAte you know I can't remember the exact reason whether he was making sure he could have more time but no he asked me to pop in. I went to Kates at 6.30 and went in through patio doors it was after 7.30 that we left the courts.

(I decided to play tennis - according to FP in her RI it was booked and they had rearranged the time)

RI - F PAYNE - We had been sailing (am) and D & I took out a boat together we were drenched and cold so came back to apartment for more clothes about 11.30, sat by pool for a bit with DP saw K & G sat and had a chat. K & I walked to pick up kids only day we did that she picked up Madeleine and I picked up Scarlett (no mention of twins or her other daughter Lily!!)

Mum & I Dave I can't remember went to beach at 3.30. So in that group who walked to beach yeah, me mum I think as I say I can't for Dave. I think he was already had gone by then. Jane with erm Ella and Evie well it would have just it was just Evie because Ella was would have been in the kids club and erm yeah R was with Grace.

(Why was Ella at the kids club it is said that ALL the group were at the beach that afternoon and the kids ate at the beach - CAT NANNY Signs Ella out at 4.30 - WHO collected her then and took her to beach to join the others as this group did not get back till between 6 and 6.30pm?)

RI Continued No Kate didn't come they tended to use the kids club in the afternoon for the twins as well as M and they were the only ones doing that as I say sometimes Ella went in the afternoon but the younger ones non of us put them in the afternoons.
It was the mens tennis that night it was getting towards 6pm and I said you'd better go, you've moved the time, it's not fair if your late, so they left about 6pm then we walked back up to watch them play. By 7pm me and my Mum headed back to start bath time. Dave we left him playing we'd bathed the kids by the time he got back probably 10 mins later

RI D Webster- The men went back before us for tennis, think we went back to the play area or maybe I went back to the apartment.

Fiona went for a run I know that

(that was all she could remember no mention of bathing kids or bein helped by DP this time just FPs run she can remember)


Also this I find very odd.

Jane Tanner

4th May Interview - The witness did not go for breakfast that morning because she had tennis booked for 9am. It was her partner who took her daughters for breakfast having previously taken Ella to the the kids club, Ellie was not feeling well did not go to the kids club and went with ROB to look for JT. After the tennis lesson the witness her partner and daughter Ellie went to the beach where they stayed until 12.20 Then they went to pick up Ella form the kids club.

(what parents leave a child in a kids club and then go off to the beach with the other child?)

cont'd - They had lunch between 12.45 and 13.45 and after at about 14.00 JT played tennis again with RM.

Her daughters and Rachels daughter stayed in the apartment with the apartment with the respective parents (must mean fathers)

After tennis approx 14.45 the witness went to her apartment where she stayed with her daughter Ellie her partner had gone sailing with Matthew.

About 15.45 she went to the beach with RM DW FP and her 2 daughters and took Ellie along

Meanwhile Russell arrived from boat trip and went straight to pick up Ella from the kids club.

(again who leaves their daughter twice now in one day while they go off and have fun with everyone else at the beach - something is not right here about the leaving of this child this day while they go to the beach - also it would appear that she left at 15.45 and yet only 3/4 hour later ROB went back from the beach to collect their daughter - signed out by Cat Nanny? why did JT just not get her and take her for the sake of 3/4 hour?? As I say something is not right here with this leaving of the daughter)

JT has stated all of this in her first interview, yet FP in her first interview the very same day as JT and less than 24 after these events says she went to the beach with DP and her mother and it wasn't until her RIs changes it to going with all the women as the men were already there!

It would also appear on checking the creche records that Ellie was never put in the kids club throughout the holiday???? So why say at the very beginning she didn't go today because she was unwell?

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by jd on Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:41 pm

I agree there is something very odd about their daughter Ellie. And it is very suspicious if she has not been signed on the creche sheets never in the kids club throughout the holiday? Maybe they used her as Maddie? There is only a few weeks between them in ages.

JT has stated all of this in her first interview, yet FP in her first interview the very same day as JT and less than 24 after these events says she went to the beach with DP and her mother and it wasn't until her RIs changes it to going with all the women as the men were already there!
Yet another total contradiction from these statements. If you look at the CCTV images DP does not look like he has just been windsurfing at all.

They have all completely changed and lied about this day, and there is a whole different story of events from their statements. How can they get it so wrong? Only if they are lying with every teeth in their mouths

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by jd on Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:44 pm

david paynes descriptions of Maddie really sends shivers down my spine. He describes her as 'Doll like' 'An angel in all white" and this "Err oh yeah, you know I'm very sure that if you'd have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they'd all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.'"

Apart from when did he have time to twizz her around and everything as Maddie only ever seemed to be in kids club and in bed, does anyone describe their friends 4 year old kid like this? This man really creeps me out

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by jd on Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:51 pm

@tigger wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:According to the official version GM had asked DP to give Kate a hand to take the chidren down to the play area. But Kate said no because the children were tired and ready for bed.

JD - if we combine this with the times given by the Paraiso bar CCTV from around 16.00 and list the separate timings of DP, FP, GM and KM, it's going to look very interesting.

The 'reason' for looking in on 5a also differs;
Gerry says it was to see if the children wanted to go to the playground. I can discount that completely. It's a typical Gerry 'what a wonderful dad I am' statement. On a par with reading the children bedtime stories. It's not in character.
But that time is given as 5.00 pm by DP. Probably the same as given by Gerry initially.
At some point during the interviews it must have occurred to GM that it would be better to have the visit later.
DP obliged in his usual way - pity he'd already been very precise on the 5.00 pm. one but what the hell. DP says it's to tell Kate G is going to be late, G asks if K needs help with the children. This makes more sense for the later version of 6.30 pm. It would have been too late to go to the playground by then.

DP and GM going down to the beach and GM being a broken man can't have happened imo.
GM being ' broken' may be partly true that night because so many things went wrong and were 'out of his control'. Gerry likes to have total control I think.

Fiona's run can (5.00 pm visit being out - do no tennis finishing before seven) barely be fitted in as she needed to shower and change as well if the tennis finished at nearly 8.00 pm.

They really are a monumentally boring lot this group. Endless mention of their jogging - being 'into' each other - it's all very nineties, when they were students and that's what they did then. Seems they're suffering from arrested development, especially the Ms with their adolescent wish for celebrity and applause. One is supposed to grow out of that sort of thing.

I think the reason they made up this 'payne visits kate mccann at 7pm' story was because the PJ were saying the last known sighting of Maddie independent of the celebrity child neglecters was at 5pm, so this fabricated story puts it at 7pm the last "independent" sighting i.e. narrows the time frame by the celebrity child neglecters would have had to discover Maddie dead and hide the body etc . david paynes originally 'sudden memory' was in October 2007 and even though it was at 5pm and with both the celebrity child neglecters were in the apartment. The CCTV images put him in the Parasido at 5.30pm

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Hummingbird on Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:00 pm

@jd wrote:I agree there is something very odd about their daughter Ellie. And it is very suspicious if she has not been signed on the creche sheets never in the kids club throughout the holiday? Maybe they used her as Maddie? There is only a few weeks between them in ages.

JT has stated all of this in her first interview, yet FP in her first interview the very same day as JT and less than 24 after these events says she went to the beach with DP and her mother and it wasn't until her RIs changes it to going with all the women as the men were already there!
Yet another total contradiction from these statements. If you look at the CCTV images DP does not look like he has just been windsurfing at all.

They have all completely changed and lied about this day, and there is a whole different story of events from their statements. How can they get it so wrong? Only if they are lying with every teeth in their mouths

Ellie is the youngest according to JT and it was Ellie who was never put in the creche, Ella who was the same age as M was put in the creche every day am and pm even when her mummy and daddy were taking her little sister to the beach!!!!!!!!!! Makes no sense to me what so ever and for her mummy to leave her in the creche while she goes and walks to the beach only for her daddy to have to go back and get her out of the creche 3/4 hour later (yet signed out by nanny cat) makes even less sense!!

Are there any checking in airport records for ROB, JT and the two children?


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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by jd on Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:59 pm

Are there any checking in airport records for ROB, JT and the two children?

I would love to see all the airport check-ins etc, would answer a lot of questions. The only clue we may have is the airport video, assuming this was recorded on the PDL holiday

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Ribisl on Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:10 pm

Just catching up on this thread which is very interesting indeed. So often, we tend to focus on one event or statement then drift away because we get bogged down, distracted, or the thread kind of disappears. But putting all the evidence together like this really can throw a totally new light on our understanding of what really went on. Well done everybody, especially jd and tigger. roses roses

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by jd on Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:10 am

Thank you Ribisl. I don't know if you noticed but on the david payne RI he said straight away in his reply that he went to check in on kate mccann "after' going to his apartment to get changed and on his way down. But when the police interviewer started pointing out the route he would have taken for this, then david payne suddenly changes his mind and comes out with a 50/50 if he went to kate mccanns apartment before or after his change into tennis clothes, and then babbles that it could have been before of after. Clearly he was struggling in himself what the best thing to say was to fit to the made up story, if it was true this 'visit' then he would not have struggled and not changed his mind. He would know and just said it, he had a year to clarify in his mind exactly the chain of events

Also, when asked a very simple question 'how long he spent in his apartment', if true he would have just answered something like 'about 3 mins' or similar. But instead he goes right around the houses quoting all the times of the evening which has nothing to do with the question asked, before finally arriving at the answer. Clearly struggling inside himself yet again to say the answer that best fits with the made up story and by going all around the houses he is buying himself time to think of what he should be saying, rather than a straight answer if it was true, which if this 'visit' was true he would have just answered. david payne is like this throughout the whole interview and the only thing he is positive about is how Maddie looked like a 'Doll' an "Angel' how 'he knew her that well' and she knew him 'that well'

1485 "How long did you spend in your apartment''

00:36:24 Reply "I mean again, we've you know, we've chatted about the timings and everything and you know looked at the photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter past six from the err restaurant, we'd gotta walk up there, ten, fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with Kate, you know that's another five, ten minutes on to your ten, fifteen minutes walk so you're talking twenty five minutes, so that's taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best part of an hour err so you know it couldn't have been long that I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.'


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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by aiyoyo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:50 pm

If he cant answer a simple question as that in a straight forward manner, then it can only mean the activity described did not take place.

So he's had to try and figure something out for an "answer" thus he rambled on off the point playing for time to come up with an answer he thought will best fit the scenario.

I am sure the Police got the answers they were looking for out of this lot during the RI; and knew they were all lying with as many teeth in their mouth. It's so patently obvious each T7 witness was trying to second guess what their other friend will say, with the resultant tjhey couldnt get their story to synchronise because they did not have facts to rely on for answers.

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by PeterMac on Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:52 am

We saw this so often in Court, when the defence put the accused in the witness box and he was cross examined.
Simple questions to start with, allowing simple answers.
Then a 'difficult' question.
Counsel just wait patiently for the gibbering to finish, and then ask the question again, in exactly the same words.
And then wait for the gibbering to finish.
Then address the judge and ask permission to ask the question for the third time ...
And then draw the jury's attention to the total inability of the accused to answer.

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by russiandoll on Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:38 pm

I am going right back to the beginning of the saga and early statements. Rather than direct people to the files I will copy over relevant parts of the group's early statements and highlight the points I find interesting. I have almost finished and hope that for people who are familiar with these statements the reading of certain parts yet again are not too tedious !

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Guest on Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:11 pm

@tigger wrote:
Stella wrote:I think they are both lying.

There is no way that Kate would have taken a shower with 3 children running around an unfamiliar apartment on their own. No protection on power sockets. Hard tiled floors. sliding doors that Madeleine could have opened. What a receipe for disaster.

Why not? They're not particularly careful of their children in any case. The visit was definitely a lie, the complete rogatory with DP is hilarious, 'all three, ermm children, were there, how nice ALL three looked etc.' See Dr. Roberts

Payne, popping his head inside te patiodoor, cannot have seen the childrens' bedroom, let alone the twins in their cots, and certainly not Madeleine in her bed if that's where they were.

And the twins, at their age, reading books?

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by jd on Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:59 am

Bump..Another important topic

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by McCant on Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:57 pm

I understand that when the GNR arrived at the apartment, Gerry McCann fell to his knees and wailed; then later, when the PJ arrived, both Gerry and Kate McCann were on the double bed bowing and wailing like a pair of Arabs. If this is true, then this seems to be a very strange and defeatist, almost final, act before any search had even begun; and at a time when their daughter needed them the most.

I also understand that Kate McCann reveals in her book ‘Madeleine’, that on the day they were made suspects, Gerry was back on his knees sobbing and repeatedly saying: “We’re finished. Our life is over.” Did no-one edit this book?

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Guest on Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:43 pm

McCant - good name!

If the book was edited, goodness knows how awful deleted extracts must have been when you think about what was left in.......

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Guest on Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:57 pm

Forgive me for being a nitpick, but ... it is 'madeleine" [underscore] by KATE McCANN [capitals]. Says it all IMO.

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Guest on Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:58 pm

As a nitpicking pedant myself, I totally agree!

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by aquila on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:00 pm

Jean wrote:As a nitpicking pedant myself, I totally agree!

I third that.

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Guest on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:05 pm

Châtelaine wrote:Forgive me for being a nitpick, but ... it is 'madeleine" [underscore] by KATE McCANN [capitals]. Says it all IMO.




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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by aquila on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:09 pm

candyfloss wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Forgive me for being a nitpick, but ... it is 'madeleine" [underscore] by KATE McCANN [capitals]. Says it all IMO.




someone edited it. The title doesn't say 'our daughter's abduction' does it?

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Guest on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:11 pm

Jean wrote:McCant - good name!
***
Reminds me of MACAND, the parents of the "missing" child in "Belle Famille".Does anyone know if it's meanwhile been translated and published in English?

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by Guest on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:15 pm

@aquila wrote:




someone edited it. The title doesn't say 'our daughter's abduction' does it?[/quote]
***
No it doesn't. It say "disappearance". I have the original edition [a present, I didn't buy it ...]

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by aquila on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:39 pm

As the McCanns insist that Madeleine was abducted isn't it odd that the book title says 'disappearance'

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Re: MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

Post by McCant on Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:15 am

Everything is odd about this case. When the story first broke, I was working at the home of a Portuguese woman, and she said that the locals back home (in Portugal) suspected that the McCanns were involved. I was quite shocked by this; but as time went on, I became quite suspicious about it all, mainly due to the McCanns’ behaviour. I later heard that sniffer dogs had picked up some scents, but I didn’t hear anymore, and it’s not a story I’ve followed or come across much; but over the years, whenever it’s crossed my mind, I’ve always thought to myself: “Those sniffer dog handlers will know because they’ll know their dogs”. Then, about a month ago, I decided to google this info, and saw the footage of the dogs, which had been available for years!

I’ve learnt a lot over the last few weeks, and it seems that things are an even bigger mess now than they were when Madeleine McCann first went missing. Even the judges seem confused. I guess it’s unusual for so much evidence to be in the public domain about a case that never went to trial.

If the McCanns are completely innocent, I have every sympathy for them – they will have gone through hell. If they are aware of some kind of accident that caused Madeleine’s death, they will still have gone through hell, and I still have a level of sympathy for them; but if the latter, I think they should show restraint and more understanding of other peoples opinions, which have largely been formed by facts, rather than summons people to court for fines/imprisonment, when all they’ve tried to do is provide a likely explanation of events, which fits in with the known facts, something the McCanns, themselves, have failed to provide. The McCanns seem to be in a hole now with little to turn to other than the seeking out of new libel opportunities. This may, eventually, be their downfall – it’s not a good idea to make ongoing noise when highly reliable cadaver/blood sniffer dogs have pointed so many paws at locations particular to you; and that’s on top of everything else. Maybe they feel that a libel career is all that’s left for them. A sad story for all, in any event.

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