The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Me wrote:

Stella wrote:

Me wrote:
Is this the Renwick GMTV interview you refer to:

Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV at 7:45am, on the morning of 04 May, that the distraught parents were certain that Madeline had been abducted. "They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour."

She said the parents went out about 8pm, checked on the children at 9pm and then when they "went back in at 10pm she was gone".

Ms Renwick said: "Poor Kate and Gerry don't know where to turn. She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

"The shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her."

Speaking to the BBC later, Ms Renwick said the McCanns, who had been holidaying with three other British families, had felt let down by police in Portugal. "I spoke to them this morning and they said the police had done nothing overnight and they felt as if they'd been left on their own. They just don't know where to turn."

However, the manager at the Mark Warner resort, John Hill said the police had been doing all they could. He said around 60 staff and guests at the complex had searched until 4.30am while police notified border police, Spanish police and airports.

Yes, that's about as much of it as I could find, but the original conversation as aired live on GMTV that morning was longer I'm sure. But I think the original interview must have been pulled as it is nowhere to be found now.

The interesting thing about it i've spotted which i'm working on in this collated response is that this statement by Renwick was given on GMTV at 07.45 am on the 4th May 2007 that's several hours BEFORE the McCann's gave their poilce statements (11.15 am for Gerry & 14.20 for kate).

So clearly that usurps a key part of the rebuttal argument. The story was the shutters were jemmied open at 07:45 on GMTV (and initially relayed to Renwick at 07.00 apparently) but "raised" in the Gerry's first police statement which was given 2-3 hours AFTER that GMTV interview and 5-6 hours AFTER Kate's.

Similarly i have seen the report with the comments of John Hill (Ocean Club Manager) saying:

Mr Hill said that despite the report by a family friend that the shutters to the couple's apartment were broken, there was no sign that anyone had forced their way in while the McCanns ate at the tapas restaurant 200 yards away.

He said: "We are hoping that Madeleine is found as soon as possible and safe and well. Everybody here is just wishing that she is found as soon as possible."

That report can be seen here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

and is dated:

Published by webmaster for 24dash.com in Communities
Friday 4th May 2007 - 12:18pm

Which is about the same time give or take an hour as to when Gerry gave his first statement where he said the shutter was "raised" but 1-2 hours BEFORE Kate made her statement at 14.20.

Clearly the article has had to be written before it was posted so i would suggest at this stage that John Hill's statement was actually made to the press prior to the Gerry's first interview and certainly well before Kate's.

Which again blows a hole in one of the assumptions that the rebuttal document makes:

Kate's statement was made before the PJ or the manager of the complex said there was no sign of a forced entry. Her statement has been unchanged throughout.

Me wrote:Stella

What about the check she did when she saw the "abductor"? That wasn't the one was it is seems a little early?

I want to know if she walked on the car park past the shutters after seeing the abductor at around 9.15.

Sorry i'm a pain but again it will be worth it when we're done becuase we can finally nail this issue beyond doubt.

candyfloss wrote:Oh God my brain is now totally befuddled!!

JT
00.16.41 4078 "Okay. So what sort of time was it when you did that listening check outside Madeleine's room?"
Reply "Well this would have been, I'd have set off about five to nine or just before nine, and so that round trip would have taken me three or four minutes maybe, because on this occasion I didn't go into our apartment, so it was just walk up, sort of ten or twenty seconds outside the two shutters and then back round".

How is that possible - five to nine or just before nine?? MO went at 9pm, followed by Gerry, at 9.05, then Jane Tanner went almost straight after GM, at 9.10 and saw the abductor at around 9.15.

[quote]
Reply "I would've seen it but because Gerry had just checked I didn't, there was no, to go in specifically."
4078 "Okay, thank you, that's clarified that for me at least anyway."




Doh, what a cock up. How can Gerry have just checked if she went at just before 9 pm? And how can she have possibly seen an abductor according to that statement!

4078 “Right. The, I think we asked, I did touch on if you heard anything when you saw the man walking along with the child and when you’d seem Gerry and Gez.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “And in those few minutes there that passed, or probably a few seconds even, and asked if you heard anything. Specifically, did you hear any car doors?”
Reply “Not that I can, not that I can remember.”
4078 “Because I think you said to me earlier that you can’t remember hearing anything else.”
Reply “No there’s nothing that, there was nothing that, because I think if I had heard something, there was nothing that’s triggered me to think oh what was that noise.”
4078 “No.”
Reply “So no, I didn’t.”
4078 “Okay. The, your proximity to passing the room where Madeleine was sleeping.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “And the fact that you, she was on the ground floor and you walked, you must have walked past her room three, three times I think we’ve…”
Reply “You don’t actually walk past their bit of the room because err have you got any pictures just to sort of show?”
4078 “Is that good enough or not?”
Reply “Err…”
4078 “I’ve got some pictures here actually yes, photographs.”
Reply “That’s, this is Madeleine’s, is that Madeleine’s room?”
4078 “Yes I think so.”
Reply “Yeah, err I don’t think they’re any use. No, because when you walk round the top of the road you sort of walk round here so you pass, so this is a car park and you’ve got another wall probably three, three cars distance from there which is the road, which is the main road, its hard to describe, err so you walk round here and along this bit of road here so that’s, that’s, that bit there is a shutter, as it says.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “So you walk past here but within this space here it’s this car park and I think there was room for at least two cars, if not, there must have been because I can remember when the dogs were there. There was two of the dog handling cars.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “In this space. So you walk past here and there’s a wall here, there’s another wall like that.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “At this area, and where I go into, when I went into my apartment I go sort of down here and then walk across this car park but its, its back here.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “So you don’t actually walk directly past that bit at all.”
4078 “Right, so my understanding was wrong because I was thinking you’d be walking right out here.”
Reply “No, no not at all.”
4078 “So there’s this sort of, barriers between their apartment and where you’re walking.”
Reply “There’s a big car park here.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “And this car park is in this space, which I think is actually bigger than it shows on here. There’s err I’m trying to think if there’s any footage you might have seen on the TV but there’s, you know, there was at least, there was at least room for two big cars which had the dogs, dog handling people in it.”
4078 “Okay.”
Reply “And there’s another wall here as you walk along and then I would come in here and there’d be, you sort of, the way you go in, I actually go in, this is the hard to describe bit, there was Kate and Gerry’s apartment, Matt and Rachael’s, there’s another apartment and there’s a stairwell that sort of was in front of our door.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “And I actually went that way round the stairwell to get to our door because the door’s that way so you never, I wouldn’t, you know, just don’t get a view of that, that window particularly because you’re right…”
4078 “So you’d have to go out of your way to go back to that one?”
Reply “I’d have to go all the way in, round my bit and then all the way…”
4078 “Back.”
Reply “Along a little passageway to get back to there.”
4078 “Right, presumably that’s why Gerry, well you can’t answer for him, but why Gerry and Kate left their other door open because it was more accessible to the open that way to check them.”
Reply “Err yeah I mean they could get round this way but they would have to come in that way then come back so it was a lot, it was a lot quicker for…”
4078 “And I think, I can’t remember whether we covered this earlier, did you check anybody else’s children throughout your holiday?”
Reply “No, I never went into another apartment, I listened err earlier in the week, I’d had sort of after I’d been I’d listen outside this window and the other window but I never, I never actually went into another apartment.”
4078 “Okay. So on your journeys that evening, on the Thursday evening when you walked past there to go and check your children, A, you had no intention of specifically going…”
Reply “No I didn’t go to there at all, no.”
4078 “And then, did you notice anything different about the…”
Reply “No, no I didn’t, I, you couldn’t, you can’t hardly see it you have to, I think it’s actually quite a lower level, I think where the road is, is actually higher to where the apartments are as well if I remember rightly so you’ve sort of got that wall there but you’re stood a bit higher up as well, so.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “And if it’s just no, I don’t think there’s any lighting down this bit, there’s actually a roof, if I remember rightly, again our bit there’s a roof sort of the floor above actually comes out like that so it’s actually quite dark as well.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “In that bit there so…”
4078 “So had the, had the shutter been disturbed? You probably wouldn’t have noticed…”
Reply “I wouldn’t have noticed, no.”
4078 “Unless you’d specifically think (inaudible).”
Reply “If I’d specifically gone to listen.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “I would’ve seen it but because Gerry had just checked I didn’t you know, there was no, to go in specifically.”
4078 “Okay, thank you, that’s clarified that for me at least anyway.”
Reply “Yeah.”

albym wrote:'Me', I have always held the view that in the four trips - Tanner, O'Brien, Oldfield and Tanner again (to 'relieve' O'Brien) - through the carpark between 21:15 (immediately after the 'bundleman sighting' and circa 21:40/21:45 (Tanner's second trip) it would not be possible for ALL those persons to have not seen the hole in the wall caused by the raised shutter.

This is part of what I have previously described as 'the demonstrable nonsense' of the official abduction story.

Alby.

4078 “So had the, had the shutter been disturbed? You probably wouldn’t have noticed…”
Reply “I wouldn’t have noticed, no.”

Me wrote:

It may be easier on certian points to simply produce two versons. A detailed one and an abridged bulleted version.

We'll see as we go on.

Stella wrote:

Me wrote:

It may be easier on certian points to simply produce two versons. A detailed one and an abridged bulleted version.

We'll see as we go on.

That sounds like an excellent idea Me. Which is kind of how our Library is being shaped.

Well done and thank you for everything you are doing for this forum. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

At about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. He then went to the WC, where he remained for a few moments.

At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed.

At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before.

Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.

He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide, and while he was entering the living room, he noticed that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought was strange, having then thought that possibly MADELEINE had got up to go to sleep in his bedroom, so as to avoid the noise produced by her siblings. Therefore, he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and he is certain of this, that the three were deeply asleep. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, then went to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the shutters, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the living room.

albym wrote:
As Stella says Tanner can surely talk. [BTW Stella , the first quote in your 15.41 post is a repeat of the Oldfield paragraph].

Me wrote:
So taking this into account and going back to Gerry's 4th May statement, the question i asked was why does he change it on the 10th saying he didn't use the door and it wasn't ?

My conclusion is that at the time of Gerry giving his first statement on the 4th may (11.20am) he was unaware of the statement by John Hill from MW , which would have come out around the time Gerry was being interviewed.

Kate's interview was at 14.20 so she would have known all about it.

Stella wrote:

Me wrote:
So taking this into account and going back to Gerry's 4th May statement, the question i asked was why does he change it on the 10th saying he didn't use the door and it wasn't ?

My conclusion is that at the time of Gerry giving his first statement on the 4th may (11.20am) he was unaware of the statement by John Hill from MW , which would have come out around the time Gerry was being interviewed.

Kate's interview was at 14.20 so she would have known all about it.

This bit is very interesting and something I had never considered before. I need to locate that John Hill statement.

Friday 4th May 2007 - 12:18pm

candyfloss wrote:

As I said originally when I posted up all those statements, how can you be so wrong about which door you entered only hours after the alleged abduction.

Stella wrote:

candyfloss wrote:

As I said originally when I posted up all those statements, how can you be so wrong about which door you entered only hours after the alleged abduction.

Well..... If she wasn't actually staying in G5D, I can easily see her getting her knickers in a knot.

Me wrote:Let me just explain a little further.

I believe that by 11.20 am (the time of his police interview) on the morning of the 4th May Gerry knew the jemmied shutters story wouldn’t fly.
I think he’d told his family that in the hope that he could create such a scenario from the outside in the early hours of the 4th May and relayed this to his friends and relatives.

Clearly over the course of the night he couldn’t do that so in his 4th May statement he simply said that the shutter was “raised” and he also added it could be raised from the outside.

I believe that Gerry was still going for the “broken in through the shutter which could be opened from the outside” story which is why he stated in his 4th May statement that that he went in through the door and it was locked at 21.10 AND that at 22.00 when Kate did her check (and found the girl missing) she also went in through the door with her key (although the big faux pax here is that if Kate did go in through the door wouldn’t she have seen the open window and shutter).

No need to have an open door at this point if you think the shutters could be forced open from the outside.

What he didn’t know, in my opinion, was at that same time, more or less, as he was giving this statement to the police, John Hill said there was no sign of forced entry in the apartment.

Kate will have heard of this so her story was always about the patio door given she didn’t give her statement until 14.20.

Hence the back tracking in Gerry’s statement on the 10th May.