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The 50 Facts Rebuttal

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 15:44

Stella

What about the check she did when she saw the "abductor"? That wasn't the one was it is seems a little early?

I want to know if she walked on the car park past the shutters after seeing the abductor at around 9.15.

Sorry i'm a pain but again it will be worth it when we're done becuase we can finally nail this issue beyond doubt.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 15:49

@Me wrote:
Stella wrote:
@Me wrote:
Is this the Renwick GMTV interview you refer to:

Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV at 7:45am, on the morning of 04 May, that the distraught parents were certain that Madeline had been abducted. "They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour."

She said the parents went out about 8pm, checked on the children at 9pm and then when they "went back in at 10pm she was gone".

Ms Renwick said: "Poor Kate and Gerry don't know where to turn. She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

"The shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her."

Speaking to the BBC later, Ms Renwick said the McCanns, who had been holidaying with three other British families, had felt let down by police in Portugal. "I spoke to them this morning and they said the police had done nothing overnight and they felt as if they'd been left on their own. They just don't know where to turn."

However, the manager at the Mark Warner resort, John Hill said the police had been doing all they could. He said around 60 staff and guests at the complex had searched until 4.30am while police notified border police, Spanish police and airports.

Yes, that's about as much of it as I could find, but the original conversation as aired live on GMTV that morning was longer I'm sure. But I think the original interview must have been pulled as it is nowhere to be found now.

The interesting thing about it i've spotted which i'm working on in this collated response is that this statement by Renwick was given on GMTV at 07.45 am on the 4th May 2007 that's several hours BEFORE the McCann's gave their poilce statements (11.15 am for Gerry & 14.20 for kate).

So clearly that usurps a key part of the rebuttal argument. The story was the shutters were jemmied open at 07:45 on GMTV (and initially relayed to Renwick at 07.00 apparently) but "raised" in the Gerry's first police statement which was given 2-3 hours AFTER that GMTV interview and 5-6 hours AFTER Kate's.

Similarly i have seen the report with the comments of John Hill (Ocean Club Manager) saying:

Mr Hill said that despite the report by a family friend that the shutters to the couple's apartment were broken, there was no sign that anyone had forced their way in while the McCanns ate at the tapas restaurant 200 yards away.

He said: "We are hoping that Madeleine is found as soon as possible and safe and well. Everybody here is just wishing that she is found as soon as possible."

That report can be seen here: http://www.24dash.com/news/Communities/2007-05-04-Holidaymakers-join-Algarve-hunt-for-missing-three-year-old

and is dated:

Published by webmaster for 24dash.com in Communities
Friday 4th May 2007 - 12:18pm

Which is about the same time give or take an hour as to when Gerry gave his first statement where he said the shutter was "raised" but 1-2 hours BEFORE Kate made her statement at 14.20.

Clearly the article has had to be written before it was posted so i would suggest at this stage that John Hill's statement was actually made to the press prior to the Gerry's first interview and certainly well before Kate's.

Which again blows a hole in one of the assumptions that the rebuttal document makes:

Kate's statement was made before the PJ or the manager of the complex said there was no sign of a forced entry. Her statement has been unchanged throughout.

Jill Renwick spoke to Kate at 7am on the morning after Madeleine vanished and said: ''Kate was at the police station in hysterics. When we spoke she said the police weren’t doing enough.''

Jill lied about this, or Kate lied to her, as Kate did not go to the station until that afternoon, not in the morning.

Kate McCann's statement: 2.20pm, 04 May 2007

Gerry McCann's statement: 11.15am, 04 May 2007

Sorry, yes, this is what you noticed too.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 16:00

@Me wrote:Stella

What about the check she did when she saw the "abductor"? That wasn't the one was it is seems a little early?

I want to know if she walked on the car park past the shutters after seeing the abductor at around 9.15.

Sorry i'm a pain but again it will be worth it when we're done becuase we can finally nail this issue beyond doubt.

It's no problem, I agree it is very important. I'm pretty sure she is waffling on about the same trip, where she passes Gerry which is when she spots the alleged abductor.

00.04.50 4078 "So there is no rush, just in your own time".
Reply "Yeah. I think everybody, everybody arrived about nine o'clock. I think we ordered fairly, as soon as Dave and Fi arrived we sort of like ordered almost straight away I think. And almost I think as soon after Dave and Fi arrived Gerry went to do his check, because they'd already been there since sort of half past eight, so, sort of like it was half an hour, a half an hour check for them. So he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying 'Oh bet he's put the footy on', because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said 'Oh I think he's probably', 'got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score', so he was gone a bit longer than normal. And then I think we thought 'Oh well the starters are going to appear any minute'. So Russ had sort of come down about quarter to. And I think at this point, I don't know whether I knew that Matt had been and listened or what, so I remember saying to Russ 'Shall I got and check' and I remember at that time thinking 'Oh can I persuade Russ to go and check so I don't have to'. But, no, so, I'll go and check at that point. So, timing wise, I mean, I think it was sort of five past, ten past, ten past nine, around, around that sort of time".

4078 "From what I know from reading statements, Gerry was still absent?"
Reply "He wasn't there at that point, no, no. So, then I walked, so I just walked out the Ocean Club bit and walked, sort of walked up the road. And then Gerry was there, he was talking to Jez WILKINS in the road, well they were sort of, as I went by. So I think I thought then 'Oh that's why Jez', not Jez, 'That's why Gerry has been, that's why he's longer than we thought'".
4078 "Backtrack a little. How long after Gerry had gone was it before you went to do your check?"
Reply "Well I think it must have been, well it must have been at least five minutes, if not more, because, I say, because he was gone, before I actually left there had been the conversations about him being waylaid. So, I mean, if, I think it must have been sort of five or ten minutes, five or ten minutes after he'd gone. I can't say for sure, but".
00.07.16 4078 "And from the time when you obviously didn't feel it appropriate to persuade Russell to go and check".
Reply "Yeah, it was my turn".

4078 "From the time you left the Tapas Bar, when you are talking, try and put yourself back there".
Reply "Umm".
4078 "It is a long time ago, I know, we have already discussed the feasibility of this. But describe, not just that you saw Gerry up the road, describe what route you take and what you can see and what you can hear and whether it is light or dark and any other noises that you are conscious of".
Reply "Umm".
4078 "I know it is a tall order".
Reply "Yeah".

4078 "But just do the best you can".
Reply "Yeah. I'm just trying to, well I've walked out of the, walked out of the, the Tap, walked sort of into the reception of the Tapas Bar and obviously walked up the road. I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I'd got Russell's big, I'd borrowed one of his, fleeces, so I'd got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I'd got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I'd only got, I didn't take jeans, I know I didn't take jeans on holiday, and then. Oh I'm sidetracking a bit, but that's why I knew one of the pictures in the paper wasn't from the holiday, because I hadn't got jeans on the holiday with me, so. And I'd got cropped trousers on and just flip-flops, so I can remember sort of walking, I couldn't walk that quickly because I'd got these silly flip-flops on and I couldn't walk that, that well in them, so to speak. And I walked, I was walking up the road and I can't remember exactly, I know this, I know, I think Gerry thinks he was somewhere different to where I think they were standing, but I was fairly sure, as I walked up the road, they were standing, one of them was in the road and one of them was just on the edge of the pavement, but I thought it was on the side of the road

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 16:03

I've also just noticed something important there, in that she mentions twice when Fi and Dave arrived, but there is no mention of Dianne !! Where was Dianne at that time ?

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 16:05

Oh God my brain is now totally befuddled!!

JT
00.16.41 4078 "Okay. So what sort of time was it when you did that listening check outside Madeleine's room?"
Reply "Well this would have been, I'd have set off about five to nine or just before nine, and so that round trip would have taken me three or four minutes maybe, because on this occasion I didn't go into our apartment, so it was just walk up, sort of ten or twenty seconds outside the two shutters and then back round".


How is that possible - five to nine or just before nine?? MO went at 9pm, followed by Gerry, at 9.05, then Jane Tanner went almost straight after GM, at 9.10 and saw the abductor at around 9.15.

[quote]
Reply "I would've seen it but because Gerry had just checked I didn't, there was no, to go in specifically."
4078 "Okay, thank you, that's clarified that for me at least anyway."





Doh, what a cock up. How can Gerry have just checked if she went at just before 9 pm? And how can she have possibly seen an abductor according to that statement!




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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 16:20

candyfloss wrote:Oh God my brain is now totally befuddled!!

JT
00.16.41 4078 "Okay. So what sort of time was it when you did that listening check outside Madeleine's room?"
Reply "Well this would have been, I'd have set off about five to nine or just before nine, and so that round trip would have taken me three or four minutes maybe, because on this occasion I didn't go into our apartment, so it was just walk up, sort of ten or twenty seconds outside the two shutters and then back round".


How is that possible - five to nine or just before nine?? MO went at 9pm, followed by Gerry, at 9.05, then Jane Tanner went almost straight after GM, at 9.10 and saw the abductor at around 9.15.

[quote]
Reply "I would've seen it but because Gerry had just checked I didn't, there was no, to go in specifically."
4078 "Okay, thank you, that's clarified that for me at least anyway."





Doh, what a cock up. How can Gerry have just checked if she went at just before 9 pm? And how can she have possibly seen an abductor according to that statement!




I'm glad you pulled that one up too Candyfloss, as it drove me crazy keep re-reading it, as I didn't think it could be right. All the timings are wrong. How have we missed this before ?

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'Me' questions

Post by albym on 16.06.11 17:08

Me said: 1) What apartment number did they go into first and did they go in through the front door?
2) how did they get to that apartment, round the back through the car park?
3) How did they get out of that apartment (door or patio) and most importantly how did they then get into 5A. the statement infers he went OUT of the patio door after checking but how did he get into the apartment?


As Stella says Tanner can surely talk. [BTW Stella , the first quote in your 15:41 post is a repeat of the Oldfield paragraph].

@Me: Re: your question (2) the following comes from Tanner's second rogatory file. I hope you are familiar with the orientation of the residence in that from north to south we have the road, the carpark, the front doors, the residences, the patio doors, the garden, the garden gate, the alleyway and the walled Tapas area - in that order.
Officer 4078 starts by getting Tanner to refer to the road/carpark/front door area as the 'roadside', and the tapas, alleyway, garden, patio door area as 'poolside'.

With their patio doors locked Tanner and Oldfield had to enter their apartment via the front door (roadside) and that door could be approached only by going through the carpark.

The McCann flat differs in that that garden gate opens directly onto the side road (which leads down to the Tapas reception and Baptista shop), not onto the alleyway like the other ground-floor flats.

16.06 4078 "If we were to say poolside and roadside, would that make it clearer as to what I was referring to?”
Reply "Yeah, yeah.”
4078 "Which, which entrance did you use mostly?”
Reply "For checking or for anything?”
4078 "For anything. Was there a check, that you’d use mostly?”
Reply "Err the back, the roadside entrance because you couldn’t actually get in to the err the poolside entrance but there was no key to get in from the outside so you could only get in there if it was unlocked. It was sort of like a, you know like patio doors have a…”
4078 "Yeah.”
Reply "Thing that goes up and down.”
4078 "Oh right.”
Reply "So the only time we’d have probably used the back, the poolside entrance is during the day if somebody else was in there already.”
4078 "Okay, so when you went out for your meal…”
Reply "Yeah.”
4078 "In the evening, the poolside door was always locked in your apartment.”
Reply "Yeah, yeah.”
4078 "So when you did your treks you had to go in through the roadside?”
Reply "Back, yeah through the back door.”
4078 "Was that a longer journey?”
Reply "Yeah.”
4078 "Having not been there I’m just imagining.”
Reply "Yeah, yeah it is longer.”
4078 "And how long would it take you to walk from the Tapas to your apartment?”
17.07 Reply "Err I don’t know, a minute and a half, yeah about a minute and a half.”
4078 "Not long at all?”
Reply "Yeah, yeah, no it’s plenty, I mean no longer than I’d say two, no I don’t even think it would be two minutes, a minute.”
4078 "And did you leave your roadside door locked or was it unlocked?”
Reply "Yes, yeah well we made, as I said we made sure that was because you could dead lock it as well and that was one of our concerns was Ella waking up and wandering, I mean like I say we didn’t think she would but that was probably our, you know so she couldn’t get out the actual apartment, that was err so we did make sure that was dead locked every night.”
4078 "Was your apartment the same layout as the MCCANN’S or was it slightly different?”
Reply "Err I think it was the same more or less.”
4078 "Okay. Can you just have a quick look at that and just in your own mind if you’re happy that it’s similar.”
Reply "Yeah that’s almost exact, almost exactly the same.”
4078 "So you, when you went back to check for them you’ve gone through…”
Reply "This one here.”
4078 "That door there?”
Reply "Yeah.”
4078 "And then sort of first right into the children’s bedroom?”
Reply "Yeah they were in the same room.”
4078 "And how did you get into the habit, what habit did you get into of leaving either of the shutters or the windows shut…”
Reply "We never opened those shutters at all the whole time we were there because it was great because it made the room really dark so it was good for them sleeping.”
4078 "Mm.”
18.19 Reply "And we didn’t use that room in the day so I don’t think we ever, well I certainly never even, never opened them or shut them.”
4078 "Okay. Just, one I’m sort of trying to familiarise myself on how things were.”
Reply "Mm.”
4078 "What was the weather like when you were there?”
Reply "It wasn’t, again it wasn’t brilliant, I think it was nicer in the UK.”
4078 "So you went on the wrong day.”
Reply "Yeah, I think err so it wasn’t, that’s one reason why we didn’t open the shutters to open the window or anything in that room, it wasn’t actually really hot at all, it was actually quite cloudy in the days and at night it was actually quite chilly.”
4078 "So it wasn’t sort of going in the pool weather or, only if you’re very brave.”
Reply "No it was really, really cold, I mean I think Russell went in because he’s a nutter and goes in the Atlantic in February but no it was more, after, it got warmer after so we did go in the pool after May the third but no before that I don’t think we, maybe we’d been in once and then decided it was a bad idea.”
4078 "Okay. So where have we got to then, we were talking about the first meal that you went into the Tapas, and so we’ve covered what arrangements were in place, in your own mind what, you know you felt happy and you’d thought about the possibilities of the children waking up but you’d kind of covered that because of the monitor…”
Reply "Yeah.”
19.35 4078 "And you knew that they would be safe within the apartment because they wouldn’t be able to wander out.”


Regarding your question (3): Tanner/O'Brien and the Oldfields exited their respective front doors, leaving their patio doors locked, and presumably locked their front doors when they exited.
Further, they had no key to enter the McCann front door so Oldfield could only enter via the patio door of 5A.
Had he had the key then he would have had to walk past the gaping hole - in the same way that the McCanns would have had to according to GM's story on 4 May. That is why he had to make the correction in his statement on 10 May.

Of course, all of this is according to the story/ies as given by the members of the holiday group.

Hope this helps

Alby.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 17:09

Found the details:

4078 “Right. The, I think we asked, I did touch on if you heard anything when you saw the man walking along with the child and when you’d seem Gerry and Gez.”
Reply “Yeah.”
4078 “And in those few minutes there that passed, or probably a few seconds even, and asked if you heard anything. Specifically, did you hear any car doors?”
Reply “Not that I can, not that I can remember.”
4078 “Because I think you said to me earlier that you can’t remember hearing anything else.”
Reply “No there’s nothing that, there was nothing that, because I think if I had heard something, there was nothing that’s triggered me to think oh what was that noise.”
4078 “No.”
Reply “So no, I didn’t.”
4078 “Okay. The, your proximity to passing the room where Madeleine was sleeping.”
Reply “Mm.”
4078 “And the fact that you, she was on the ground floor and you walked, you must have walked past her room three, three times I think we’ve…”
Reply “You don’t actually walk past their bit of the room because err have you got any pictures just to sort of show?”
4078 “Is that good enough or not?”
Reply “Err…”
4078 “I’ve got some pictures here actually yes, photographs.”
Reply “That’s, this is Madeleine’s, is that Madeleine’s room?”
4078 “Yes I think so.”
Reply “Yeah, err I don’t think they’re any use. No, because when you walk round the top of the road you sort of walk round here so you pass, so this is a car park and you’ve got another wall probably three, three cars distance from there which is the road, which is the main road, its hard to describe, err so you walk round here and along this bit of road here so that’s, that’s, that bit there is a shutter, as it says.”
4078 “Mm.”
Reply “So you walk past here but within this space here it’s this car park and I think there was room for at least two cars, if not, there must have been because I can remember when the dogs were there. There was two of the dog handling cars.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “In this space. So you walk past here and there’s a wall here, there’s another wall like that.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “At this area, and where I go into, when I went into my apartment I go sort of down here and then walk across this car park but its, its back here.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “So you don’t actually walk directly past that bit at all.”
4078 “Right, so my understanding was wrong because I was thinking you’d be walking right out here.”
Reply “No, no not at all.”
4078 “So there’s this sort of, barriers between their apartment and where you’re walking.”
Reply “There’s a big car park here.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “And this car park is in this space, which I think is actually bigger than it shows on here. There’s err I’m trying to think if there’s any footage you might have seen on the TV but there’s, you know, there was at least, there was at least room for two big cars which had the dogs, dog handling people in it.”
4078 “Okay.”
Reply “And there’s another wall here as you walk along and then I would come in here and there’d be, you sort of, the way you go in, I actually go in, this is the hard to describe bit, there was Kate and Gerry’s apartment, Matt and Rachael’s, there’s another apartment and there’s a stairwell that sort of was in front of our door.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “And I actually went that way round the stairwell to get to our door because the door’s that way so you never, I wouldn’t, you know, just don’t get a view of that, that window particularly because you’re right…”
4078 “So you’d have to go out of your way to go back to that one?”
Reply “I’d have to go all the way in, round my bit and then all the way…”
4078 “Back.”
Reply “Along a little passageway to get back to there.”
4078 “Right, presumably that’s why Gerry, well you can’t answer for him, but why Gerry and Kate left their other door open because it was more accessible to the open that way to check them.”
Reply “Err yeah I mean they could get round this way but they would have to come in that way then come back so it was a lot, it was a lot quicker for…”
4078 “And I think, I can’t remember whether we covered this earlier, did you check anybody else’s children throughout your holiday?”
Reply “No, I never went into another apartment, I listened err earlier in the week, I’d had sort of after I’d been I’d listen outside this window and the other window but I never, I never actually went into another apartment.”
4078 “Okay. So on your journeys that evening, on the Thursday evening when you walked past there to go and check your children, A, you had no intention of specifically going…”
Reply “No I didn’t go to there at all, no.”
4078 “And then, did you notice anything different about the…”
Reply “No, no I didn’t, I, you couldn’t, you can’t hardly see it you have to, I think it’s actually quite a lower level, I think where the road is, is actually higher to where the apartments are as well if I remember rightly so you’ve sort of got that wall there but you’re stood a bit higher up as well, so.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “And if it’s just no, I don’t think there’s any lighting down this bit, there’s actually a roof, if I remember rightly, again our bit there’s a roof sort of the floor above actually comes out like that so it’s actually quite dark as well.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “In that bit there so…”
4078 “So had the, had the shutter been disturbed? You probably wouldn’t have noticed…”
Reply “I wouldn’t have noticed, no.”
4078 “Unless you’d specifically think (inaudible).”
Reply “If I’d specifically gone to listen.”
4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “I would’ve seen it but because Gerry had just checked I didn’t you know, there was no, to go in specifically.”
4078 “Okay, thank you, that’s clarified that for me at least anyway.”
Reply “Yeah.”

____________________
What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were  incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs. - The Words of a JUDGE in relation to the McCanns

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 17:13

Thanks Alby, given what i've posted specifically in relation to Tanner's rogatory then those photos you have posted earlier in this thread are incredibly important.

Reading through the waffle of her statement i draw the conclusion she's saying she did walk past but she wouldn't be in a position to see their window.

Your photos disprove that.

Would you agree?

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Would you agree?

Post by albym on 16.06.11 17:33

'Me', I have always held the view that in the four trips - Tanner, O'Brien, Oldfield and Tanner again (to 'relieve' O'Brien) - through the carpark between 21:15 (immediately after the 'bundleman sighting' and circa 21:40/21:45 (Tanner's second trip) it would not be possible for ALL those persons to have not seen the hole in the wall caused by the raised shutter.

This is part of what I have previously described as 'the demonstrable nonsense' of the official abduction story.

Alby.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 17:54

albym wrote:'Me', I have always held the view that in the four trips - Tanner, O'Brien, Oldfield and Tanner again (to 'relieve' O'Brien) - through the carpark between 21:15 (immediately after the 'bundleman sighting' and circa 21:40/21:45 (Tanner's second trip) it would not be possible for ALL those persons to have not seen the hole in the wall caused by the raised shutter.

This is part of what I have previously described as 'the demonstrable nonsense' of the official abduction story.

Alby.

Alby i agree entirely. All this is going in my collation of everything discussed so far.

Also reminded me of how unprofessional the interviewer was in asking this question:

4078 “So had the, had the shutter been disturbed? You probably wouldn’t have noticed…”
Reply “I wouldn’t have noticed, no.”

Talk about putting words in a interviewee's mouth!

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 17.06.11 9:10

Just an update. I said yesterday i would collate all replies together and create one single repsonse document, which i have started doing.

I have now realised the size of the task i've commmited to!!

I've produced 7 pages on the shutters and locks alone due to the sheer volume of material available which not only contradicts the T9 but the Rebuttal document as well.

I will plough on with it and my aim is to create a document where the structure and chronolgy maximises the impact of the content.

Once i have done that i will send it to one of the mods to check and discuss. It may be easier on certian points to simply produce two versons. A detailed one and an abridged bulleted version.

We'll see as we go on.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 9:26

I have one big problem with Tanner's account in all this. She said she had a similar apartment to the McCann's a 2 bed. On the MW booking sheets, they reserved a 1 bed apartment. On the OC guest lists it says G5D is a T1, which is also a 1 bed. So how did she end up with a 2 bed apartment and where was it?

Was she describing a route passed bundleman, that she never had to take that week?

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 9:31

@Me wrote:

It may be easier on certian points to simply produce two versons. A detailed one and an abridged bulleted version.

We'll see as we go on.

That sounds like an excellent idea Me. Which is kind of how our Library is being shaped.

Well done and thank you for everything you are doing for this forum.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 17.06.11 10:01

Stella wrote:
@Me wrote:

It may be easier on certian points to simply produce two versons. A detailed one and an abridged bulleted version.

We'll see as we go on.

That sounds like an excellent idea Me. Which is kind of how our Library is being shaped.

Well done and thank you for everything you are doing for this forum.

No problem! The gist of the work i've done so far boils down to this on the shutters and the "story":

Rebuttal statement claims the McCanns didnt change their story regarding the shutters / patio to the police. That's ignoring the fact the MMRG never claimed it was the police statements that changed, just their story. So the rebuttal is taking the fact out of context.

Even taking this into account the claim by the rebuttal is wrong becuase Gerry did change his police statements from the account he gave on the 4th to the account he gave on the 10th.

In relation to the overall story we have evidence of 5 close relatives / friends giving stories to the media (having being told directly by the McCann's) that the apartment was both locked and the shutters jemmied and forced.

Gerry's police statement of 4th May states that he entered at 21.05 on his last check by the front door using his key:



At about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. He then went to the WC, where he remained for a few moments.


Later in the statement Gerry mentions that Kate entered at 10.00pm by the door using her key:


At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed.


Kate McCann's statement of the 4th May states that she entered at 10.00pm by the patio:



At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before.

Gerry's statement on the 10th has now changed he says they didnt leave by the front door and he didnt enter at 21.05 by the front door but by the patio:

Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.

Then in relation to entering the apartment for his check at 21.15 he now claims on the 10th May that he entered via the patio door directly contradicting his statement of the 4th May 2007:

He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide, and while he was entering the living room, he noticed that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought was strange, having then thought that possibly MADELEINE had got up to go to sleep in his bedroom, so as to avoid the noise produced by her siblings. Therefore, he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and he is certain of this, that the three were deeply asleep. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, then went to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the shutters, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the living room.

So just on the one issue of changing stories, even if you ignore the media responses given by their friends and families and concentrate solely on their police statements, that's a big change right there!

Then if we look at the issue raised by the rebuttal of Kate making her statement before the confirmation from the PJ and the Ocean club that the shutters showed no sign of forced entry, this is also false. As i identified on a previous page Kate gave her statement at 14.20 on 4th May. John Hill's (MW rep) comments appeared in the press early in the morning of 4th May before kate gave her statement in the afternoon.

So that's also a rebuttal issue which is incorrect and eaislyt proved by oproviding the web link to the article wher eit was first quoted.

So taking this into account and going back to Gerry's 4th May statement, the question i asked was why does he change it on the 10th saying he didn't use the door and it wasn't ?

My conclusion is that at the time of Gerry giving his first statement on the 4th may (11.20am) he was unaware of the statement by John Hill from MW , which would have come out around the time Gerry was being interviewed.

Kate's interview was at 14.20 so she would have known all about it.

Therefore the emphasis in the story has to be put on the patio and the doors being unlocked becuase their attempts to cry "forced entry" had just been shot down in flames at the time Gerry was in the police station.

I also conclude that the number of people who claimed to play with the shutter from the outside (Gerry, Kate, Diane) would seem to indicate an attempt was made to create the impression of forced entry. Why would 3 people start playing with a shutter and "twisting it" when you have just found a child missing?

Wouldn't the focus be on looking for her, not playing with a shutter to see if it could be opened from the outside.

So that's where i'm upto!

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 10:09

albym wrote:
As Stella says Tanner can surely talk. [BTW Stella , the first quote in your 15.41 post is a repeat of the Oldfield paragraph].

Thank you Alby for pointing that out to me I have corrected the original post, so as not to confuse.

Too many hands in too many pies at the moment.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 10:22

Great work Me. thumbsup

As I said originally when I posted up all those statements, how can you be so wrong about which door you entered only hours after the alleged abduction. This was so important in finding Madeleine and ascertaining how people came and went so the PJ could immediately rule out entry and exit points of the abductor. Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!

My other bone of contention was that WHY would 3 people mess with the shutters? They had said it was a crime scene because Madeleine had been abducted so what sensible person goes and messes with the most crucial bit of evidence? More to the point, where are their fingerprints?

Perhaps you should send your little dossier to SY, and save them a lot of work big grin

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 10:28

@Me wrote:
So taking this into account and going back to Gerry's 4th May statement, the question i asked was why does he change it on the 10th saying he didn't use the door and it wasn't ?

My conclusion is that at the time of Gerry giving his first statement on the 4th may (11.20am) he was unaware of the statement by John Hill from MW , which would have come out around the time Gerry was being interviewed.

Kate's interview was at 14.20 so she would have known all about it.

This bit is very interesting and something I had never considered before. I need to locate that John Hill statement.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 17.06.11 10:31

Stella wrote:
@Me wrote:
So taking this into account and going back to Gerry's 4th May statement, the question i asked was why does he change it on the 10th saying he didn't use the door and it wasn't ?

My conclusion is that at the time of Gerry giving his first statement on the 4th may (11.20am) he was unaware of the statement by John Hill from MW , which would have come out around the time Gerry was being interviewed.

Kate's interview was at 14.20 so she would have known all about it.

This bit is very interesting and something I had never considered before. I need to locate that John Hill statement.

Take a look here:

http://www.24dash.com/news/Communities/2007-05-04-Holidaymakers-join-Algarve-hunt-for-missing-three-year-old

look at the date & time the article was posted:

Friday 4th May 2007 - 12:18pm

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 10:49

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6620000/newsid_6625200/6625205.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&bbcws=1

Sorry I don't know how to post up a video clip yet.

Here John Hill tells of how the McCann's entered via the patio doors. Body language experts would tell you that when someone is very nervous about saying something, they will unknowingly lick their lips. Look at what he says immediately after licking his lips.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 11:00

And VERY significantly he calls Madeleine "Maddie". We need to keep a note of that.

Can someone in the know make a copy of the clip please, just in case it evaporates.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 17.06.11 11:07

Let me just explain a little further.

I believe that by 11.20 am (the time of his police interview) on the morning of the 4th May Gerry knew the jemmied shutters story wouldn’t fly.
I think he’d told his family that in the hope that he could create such a scenario from the outside in the early hours of the 4th May and relayed this to his friends and relatives.

Clearly over the course of the night he couldn’t do that so in his 4th May statement he simply said that the shutter was “raised” and he also added it could be raised from the outside.

I believe that Gerry was still going for the “broken in through the shutter which could be opened from the outside” story which is why he stated in his 4th May statement that that he went in through the door and it was locked at 21.10 AND that at 22.00 when Kate did her check (and found the girl missing) she also went in through the door with her key (although the big faux pax here is that if Kate did go in through the door wouldn’t she have seen the open window and shutter).

No need to have an open door at this point if you think the shutters could be forced open from the outside.

What he didn’t know, in my opinion, was at that same time, more or less, as he was giving this statement to the police, John Hill said there was no sign of forced entry in the apartment.

Kate will have heard of this so her story was always about the patio door given she didn’t give her statement until 14.20.

Hence the back tracking in Gerry’s statement on the 10th May.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 11:08

candyfloss wrote:

As I said originally when I posted up all those statements, how can you be so wrong about which door you entered only hours after the alleged abduction.

Well..... If she wasn't actually staying in G5D, I can easily see her getting her knickers in a knot.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 11:13

Stella wrote:
candyfloss wrote:

As I said originally when I posted up all those statements, how can you be so wrong about which door you entered only hours after the alleged abduction.

Well..... If she wasn't actually staying in G5D, I can easily see her getting her knickers in a knot.

Stella, that quote above, I was speaking about GM's different accounts.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 17.06.11 11:17

@Me wrote:Let me just explain a little further.

I believe that by 11.20 am (the time of his police interview) on the morning of the 4th May Gerry knew the jemmied shutters story wouldn’t fly.
I think he’d told his family that in the hope that he could create such a scenario from the outside in the early hours of the 4th May and relayed this to his friends and relatives.

Clearly over the course of the night he couldn’t do that so in his 4th May statement he simply said that the shutter was “raised” and he also added it could be raised from the outside.

I believe that Gerry was still going for the “broken in through the shutter which could be opened from the outside” story which is why he stated in his 4th May statement that that he went in through the door and it was locked at 21.10 AND that at 22.00 when Kate did her check (and found the girl missing) she also went in through the door with her key (although the big faux pax here is that if Kate did go in through the door wouldn’t she have seen the open window and shutter).

No need to have an open door at this point if you think the shutters could be forced open from the outside.

What he didn’t know, in my opinion, was at that same time, more or less, as he was giving this statement to the police, John Hill said there was no sign of forced entry in the apartment.

Kate will have heard of this so her story was always about the patio door given she didn’t give her statement until 14.20.

Hence the back tracking in Gerry’s statement on the 10th May.

I agree. We can also factor into this, although Gerry's statement commenced at 11.20, there would have had to have been a period of time for him to travel to Portimao. How long did it take for him to be driven there, get inside the station and sit down in the interview room?

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