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Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by ufercoffy on 20.06.11 9:20

What's funny (actually it's not funny at all) is that the 'trashers' set up a blog using the trashee's name then goes on to trash 'themselves' in 'their own' name.
Pat Brown is a fake posted by Pat Brown Rolling Eyes
Muratfan did that with his skanky blogs about Brenda Ryan and Tony Bennett.
As you say, Stella, "As such, their reputations will always get trashed by those who fear them the most." winkwink

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Guest on 20.06.11 9:24

Stella wrote:Criminal Profilers, just like the CSI dogs of Eddie and Keela are every criminals worst nightmare. As such, their reputations will always get trashed by those who fear them the most.

Yep, seems like Pat Brown has rattled some cages. Strange but anyone who doesn't tow the line has to be discredited, Goncalo Amaral, Tony Bennett, Pat Brown, to name just a few, even the dogs as you say Stella, who after all are just trained to do the job they do. Wonder if the dogs had alerted elsewhere would they have been trashed then?

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Discrediting of anyone who disagrees

Post by Marian on 20.06.11 11:37

We're back again with those poor souls who have such a weak case that all they can do to defend themselves is to insult anyone who points out all the problems with what they believe. It's certainly nothing new and is not exclusive to Madeleine's case.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Zelina on 20.06.11 11:56

@BertySodbuster wrote:If she really wanted to spread the word she should have put her theory on her blog so people could read it for free rather than charging for it.
She did. She has been writing about the disappearance of Madeleine for a long time now. I have bought her book on my kindle and there isn't any new information there. It is the same information presented as a profile, going through possibilities and hypotheses and explaining what is and isn't possible and why.
I highly recommend this book to anyone, whatever their views on the case may be. It looks at the facts available in a professional manner, getting rid of all the emotional issues that can cloud a person's judgement.

As for the fact that she is making money from it, well why shouldn't she? She is a professional and she obviously spent a great deal of time reviewing all the evidence available. I already knew what her opinion was before buying the book, I was interested in the thought process behind her conclusions.

I respect your opinion and I've met others who feel that no-one should be making money from Madeleine's disappearance. It's just that considering how much money has been raised by the McCanns already, it seems that it doesn't matter that much anymore. Personally I would like Pat Brown to give part of the proceeds to a missing person's charity, but that's her prerogative.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Guest on 20.06.11 12:43

@Zelina wrote:
As for the fact that she is making money from it, well why shouldn't she? She is a professional

I agree. Carter Ruck charge what is it now, about £700 an hour for their opinions. £2 is nothing by comparison.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by PeterMac on 20.06.11 13:32

For those who haven't yet read her very intresting and though provoking profile and theory I append a shortened account of the final one.
Bear in mind that she leads you to this slowly and logically, applying Occam's Razor at every stage. There are no outrageous leaps, or flights of "I knew":

It is well worth the £2, and you can download the Kindle software itself for PC or Mac, absolutely free.

To abide by the rules I have added comments in blue.

There is an important point made at the start.
It is important for me to emphasise the following profile is a theory based on presently available public information. It is also important to note that determinations made in this profile do not assign guilt or innocence to any party, nor are these determinations to be misinterpreted as ‘facts’ as opposed to opinions.
Then follow the different sections
2 The disappearance,
3 What day and from where did Madeleine go missing,
4 When was the last time Madeleine was seen alive
5 The checks, the doors and the Windows
6 The development of a Theory
7 The sightings of Jane Tanner and the Smith Family - Which is correct ?
8 Where is Madeleine’s body
9 The post crime behaviour of the McCanns and friends
10 Final profile determinations and recommendations to Law Enforcement, the McCanns, and their friends and family.

In the Final Determinations section we find this
... the Theory I believe is most supported by the evidence
1 Madeleine went missing on May 3, 2007
2 Madeleine went missing between 8:30pm and 10pm that evening
3 The emotions of Kate and Gerry were real. They were real but they were the emotions of a scared person, Kate, at 10pm, and two devastated parents later that night who knew their child was dead and not coming home.... This is possible, but there was a huge amount of hystrionics and "overacting"
4 The last person to claim to see Madeleine alive between 8:30 and 10pm that evening is Gerry McCann and it is likely that Gerry was the one that found and moved Madeleine’s body to the beach. Or to somewhere
5 It is highly likely that the group of friends (or most of them) knew that Madeleine had died in the apartment, and helped Gerry and Kate cover the crime ....I assume she is talking about an alleged "crime" of concealing a death, rather than anything else.
6 Madeleine’s body may have been moved to the cliffs and then to Huelva, Spain ...
7 The post-crime behaviours of the McCanns appear to support the theory that they know Madeleine is dead, that they had a role in her death and that they covered up the crime I assume she is talking about an alleged "crime" of concealing a death, rather than anything else.
8 The physical evidence does not support the abductor theory... I think most people agree on this,
9 The sniffer dogs detected decomposition and blood in the apartment of the McCanns ...
10 The dogs hit on some of Kate’s clothes which could only have occurred if she had contact with Madeleine’s body after she was deceased... This could have occurred if Kate came back to the apartment at 10pm, found Madeleine dead behind the sofa, .... Otherwise, if Gerry hid the body of Madeleine on the beach at 10pm, then when he and Kate walked to the beach at sunrise, Kate may have held Madeleine in her arms and said her good-byes at that time. I find this second scenario more in line with the evidence. This is a very interesting take on the evidence. Pat brings us to this slowly and logically, and it is not without its mertis for further discussion and research

So, to sum up, a very interesting piece of work. It stands reading several times, in an attempt to 'falsify' each piece of evidence, and to test each conclusion for logical content. I recommend you buy it.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Guest on 20.06.11 14:06

Thank you PeterMac for posting that up, it is much appreciated.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Guest on 20.06.11 14:27

@PeterMac wrote:
10 The dogs hit on some of Kate’s clothes which could only have occurred if she had contact with Madeleine’s body after she was deceased...
1.This could have occurred if Kate came back to the apartment at 10pm, found Madeleine dead behind the sofa, ....
Otherwise, 2. if Gerry hid the body of Madeleine on the beach at 10pm, then when he and Kate walked to the beach at sunrise, Kate may have held Madeleine in her arms and said her good-byes at that time.
I find this second scenario more in line with the evidence.
This is a very interesting take on the evidence. Pat brings us to this slowly and logically, and it is not without its mertis for further discussion and research

If we were to believe that Madeleine died on the 3rd of May, this might have some merit. But is does have some flaws.

1. If this had been the case, somebody other than a T9 must have run back to the apartment and they would have seen what was behind the sofa, surely?

2. If that had been the case, Kate would have surely returned to the OC with blood on her clothes.

But going back to the first bit;

There is an important point made at the start.
It is important for me to emphasise the following profile is a theory based on presently available public information.

You see, this is where the newly found concerns in the creche sheets possibly changes everything. But I am thankful to Pat Brown for releasing this information. As she says, we can at least discuss the "presently available public information", which in turn heats things up nicely from a different angle.

Well done Pat

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by PeterMac on 20.06.11 16:30

It really is important for people to read the whole thing.
Pat's method is to take the pace slowly, to add evidence bit by bit and at each stage to see where that has taken the theory
At one stage she put forward that
my wording
Gerry was the last to see Madeleine
Gerry was also the first to find her - dead - behind the sofa when he did the 9:05 check
Matt came to do his 'check and found them both.
They devised the plan
Matt went back to the Tapas, whilst Gerry went to the beach
Kate did the check at 10:00 and raised the alarm
Gerry and the Tapas 7 rehearsed the plan - ]and wrote it down on the back of the book - my comment]
They opened the window to add 'evidence' to the 'abduction' story.

But she also puts up the 'abduction' scenario as a straw man and knocks it down very neatly.
Please pay the £2. It is worth it, if only for the intellectual stimulation of seeing another coherent argument.


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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Gillyspot on 20.06.11 21:33

Stella wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
10 The dogs hit on some of Kate’s clothes which could only have occurred if she had contact with Madeleine’s body after she was deceased...
1.This could have occurred if Kate came back to the apartment at 10pm, found Madeleine dead behind the sofa, ....
Otherwise, 2. if Gerry hid the body of Madeleine on the beach at 10pm, then when he and Kate walked to the beach at sunrise, Kate may have held Madeleine in her arms and said her good-byes at that time.
I find this second scenario more in line with the evidence.
This is a very interesting take on the evidence. Pat brings us to this slowly and logically, and it is not without its mertis for further discussion and research

If we were to believe that Madeleine died on the 3rd of May, this might have some merit. But is does have some flaws.

1. If this had been the case, somebody other than a T9 must have run back to the apartment and they would have seen what was behind the sofa, surely? As stated Below Gerry was on his way to the beach by around 9.15pm

2. If that had been the case, Kate would have surely returned to the OC with blood on her clothes. Pat covers that as she states that Gerry found her and took her and either Matt or Russell cleaned up.

But going back to the first bit;

There is an important point made at the start.
It is important for me to emphasise the following profile is a theory based on presently available public information.

You see, this is where the newly found concerns in the creche sheets possibly changes everything. But I am thankful to Pat Brown for releasing this information. As she says, we can at least discuss the "presently available public information", which in turn heats things up nicely from a different angle.

Well done Pat

As it happens I do have one question myself. Where was Gerry able to get to (and back) from the OC within 20 mins and leave Madeleines body so that no one could find it (not a very large time window - unless we believe that they went out for a meal knowing she was dead). Surely with the dozens searching you would have thought someone would find her body (no bag at this time). once they were able to move her to the cliffs then possibly it may not be found (although I still find the thought of moving your daugthers body and dumping in on the cliffs for 2 months).

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by ROSA on 20.06.11 22:34

@PeterMac wrote:For those who haven't yet read her very intresting and though provoking profile and theory I append a shortened account of the final one.
Bear in mind that she leads you to this slowly and logically, applying Occam's Razor at every stage. There are no outrageous leaps, or flights of "I knew":

It is well worth the £2, and you can download the Kindle software itself for PC or Mac, absolutely free.

To abide by the rules I have added comments in blue.

There is an important point made at the start.
It is important for me to emphasise the following profile is a theory based on presently available public information. It is also important to note that determinations made in this profile do not assign guilt or innocence to any party, nor are these determinations to be misinterpreted as ‘facts’ as opposed to opinions.
Then follow the different sections
2 The disappearance,
3 What day and from where did Madeleine go missing,
4 When was the last time Madeleine was seen alive
5 The checks, the doors and the Windows
6 The development of a Theory
7 The sightings of Jane Tanner and the Smith Family - Which is correct ?
8 Where is Madeleine’s body
9 The post crime behaviour of the McCanns and friends
10 Final profile determinations and recommendations to Law Enforcement, the McCanns, and their friends and family.

In the Final Determinations section we find this
... the Theory I believe is most supported by the evidence
1 Madeleine went missing on May 3, 2007
2 Madeleine went missing between 8:30pm and 10pm that evening
3 The emotions of Kate and Gerry were real. They were real but they were the emotions of a scared person, Kate, at 10pm, and two devastated parents later that night who knew their child was dead and not coming home.... This is possible, but there was a huge amount of hystrionics and "overacting"
4 The last person to claim to see Madeleine alive between 8:30 and 10pm that evening is Gerry McCann and it is likely that Gerry was the one that found and moved Madeleine’s body to the beach. Or to somewhere
5 It is highly likely that the group of friends (or most of them) knew that Madeleine had died in the apartment, and helped Gerry and Kate cover the crime ....I assume she is talking about an alleged "crime" of concealing a death, rather than anything else.
6 Madeleine’s body may have been moved to the cliffs and then to Huelva, Spain ...
7 The post-crime behaviours of the McCanns appear to support the theory that they know Madeleine is dead, that they had a role in her death and that they covered up the crime I assume she is talking about an alleged "crime" of concealing a death, rather than anything else.
8 The physical evidence does not support the abductor theory... I think most people agree on this,
9 The sniffer dogs detected decomposition and blood in the apartment of the McCanns ...
10 The dogs hit on some of Kate’s clothes which could only have occurred if she had contact with Madeleine’s body after she was deceased... This could have occurred if Kate came back to the apartment at 10pm, found Madeleine dead behind the sofa, .... Otherwise, if Gerry hid the body of Madeleine on the beach at 10pm, then when he and Kate walked to the beach at sunrise, Kate may have held Madeleine in her arms and said her good-byes at that time. I find this second scenario more in line with the evidence. This is a very interesting take on the evidence. Pat brings us to this slowly and logically, and it is not without its mertis for further discussion and research

So, to sum up, a very interesting piece of work. It stands reading several times, in an attempt to 'falsify' each piece of evidence, and to test each conclusion for logical content. I recommend you buy it.
Thankyou PeterMac but does Pat say how she thinks Madeleine died and how she got behind the sofa?

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by PeterMac on 21.06.11 6:52

@ROSA wrote: Thankyou PeterMac but does Pat say how she thinks Madeleine died and how she got behind the sofa?
Occam's Razor. Start with the simplest possible explanation, and don't add unnecessary complications.
Climbed up.
Fell off.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by LittleMissMolly on 21.06.11 8:03

@PeterMac wrote:
@ROSA wrote: Thankyou PeterMac but does Pat say how she thinks Madeleine died and how she got behind the sofa?
Occam' Razor. Start with the simplest possible explanation, and don't add unnecessary complications.
Climbed up.
Fell off.

Absolutely - I'm a big fan of Occam's Razor thumbsup

There is a refreshing lack of extraneous detail in Pat's work ... she doesn't speculate any more than is absolutely necessary and she doesn't make any suppositions which aren't borne out by the known facts. Hence the profile is completely believable in it's simplicity.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by PeterMac on 21.06.11 9:06

Very refreshing indeed.
The more so because she starts by accepting at face value most of what the various people said.
- Let us assume that Madeleine went missing on the night that the parents said she did.
- Let us assume that the parents' grief was real, if overplayed
- Let us assume that the shutters were opened
- Let us assume that Gerry did do the visit he said he did
- Let us assume .. and so on.
- In fact let us assume that most of the concrete facts as presented were more or less accurate.

And then she very simply fits it all together. But in a very different way from how the McCanns' want us to put it together.
And as she does so, other parts of the 'story' which previously seemed irrelevant suddenly acquire a great importance. Not least several of the things Katey reveals in her book; things Mitchell said; Gerry's actions.
I repeat, if you have got £2 buy it, download Kindle for PC or Mac for nothing, and then read and re-read. Test, probe, argue, 'falsify', suggest alternatives.
It is a very stimulating thesis.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by ROSA on 21.06.11 9:16

They killed M then hid the body

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Guest on 21.06.11 9:27

I have been a huge fan of Pat's work for some time now. But, as I believe that Madeleine died on the night of the 28th and Pat is still working on the theory that she died on the night of the 3rd, it is hard to accept most of what she has said. Sorry.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by ROSA on 21.06.11 9:41

I agree with Stella also i feel this was a very planned cover up which worked because they had alot of time to plan it

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by amvee1971 on 21.06.11 10:31

Hi Stella and Rosa, fairly new, trying to take all the info on this site in! Why do you believe Madeleine died on the 28th April? I am interested in your theories as to what happened, and how they kept it covered up from MW staff for so long. Thanks

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Ringo on 21.06.11 11:41

Is it true that she actually believes Gerry may have taken Madeleine back to England in a hold-all?

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Guest on 21.06.11 12:09

@amvee1971 wrote:Hi Stella and Rosa, fairly new, trying to take all the info on this site in! Why do you believe Madeleine died on the 28th April? I am interested in your theories as to what happened, and how they kept it covered up from MW staff for so long. Thanks

Hello amvee1971.

It is really complicated to explain in detail I'm afraid. But my theory is based on extensive work in examining the phone records of everyone, which was done over a really long period by a poster on here called Kikoraton. Kiko is ex army intelligence and from what he saw in the ping activity, it would suggest that something was going on way before 10pm on the 3rd. Then we have the creche records. If you study them in detail, in particular everyones handwriting. What you will see is something very odd indeed going on, that started on the 29th April. I am sorry but I cannot explain it any further than that at the moment. But all of these findings are being passed onto the Met for them to examine in greater detail.

This is information that has only recently come to light, which is why Pat Brown may not be aware of it.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by amvee1971 on 21.06.11 12:36

Thanks Stella. Can you point me in the right direction as to where I can find these details on this site. Thanks again

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Guest on 21.06.11 13:13

amvee1971,

In the Library, you will find some threads on phone calls/pings, then look for the creche record threads. It is not spelt out in black and white I'm afraid, for ongoing operational reasons.

It is perfectly alright to have an opinion and to discuss those opinions as such, but we cannot state anything as fact from a legal point of view.

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by Guest on 21.06.11 20:33




Profile of the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann
Clearly there is desperation to stop the Profile! It has been stolen off Amazon and being given away free! Oddly, they are promoting what they want to stop!



5 hours ago · Like · Comment


  • Jamie Espiner, Steve Morley, Chris Coates and 5 others like this.







    • Profile of the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann Nah, they are trying to stick it to me, but they don't get money wasn't the issue! And, now, in their odd way they are doing what the McCanns don't want them to do! 5 hours ago · 3 peopleLoading...






    • Profile of the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann Shows how rattled they are, Meredith. If the profile is junk, let people waste their money on it and complain it is stupid. 5 hours ago · 2 peopleLoading...






    • Gill Kelly What???? Thankfully I did the same as Meredith and got the Kindle app and read your excellent, informative and factual profile a few nights ago...but are you saying it has been removed from Amazon,Pat, and if so, on what grounds?? 5 hours ago · 2 peopleLoading...






    • Joanne Howe I can still find it on amazon along with 40 odd comments, so maybe I don't understand whats gone missing. 5 hours ago






    • Gill Kelly I just looked and it is still there, still at the same price of £2.12 5 hours ago






    • Mike Henthorn the only conclusion i would question is that the tapas 7 helped to cover it up because they were afraid that they would all be accused of neglect. i think the reason they covered it up is that they systematically sedated their children and ...didnt want any tests done. when you look at paynes rogatory statement, referring to the night madeleine 'went missing' he says 'and they just looked such healthy children'. is he trying to justify the level of medication?See more
      5 hours ago · 1 personLoading...






    • Gill Kelly I dont understand either Joanne :-( 5 hours ago






    • Joanne Howe I have got visions of Judge Judy with 5000 Pat fans from all over the world and Judge Judy shooting the Mccanns down in flames. (I'm so horrible). 5 hours ago · 1 personLoading...






    • Profile of the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann No, Gill, the Profile is still available at Amazon. What these pros are doing is providing a link to a stolen copy. They hope this will diminish sales and they think they are getting back at me for putting it out. I may lose some sales but ...they don't get that this wasn't the point to begin with. If you put a book up for free, it gets bad press, that the person who wrote it is a hack, so putting it up for a small charge puts it into the "real" book category of Kate McCann's Madeleine and makes it a noticeable rebuttal.See more
      5 hours ago · 2 peopleLoading...




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Y?

Post by ROSA on 22.06.11 1:44

skynews knew about maddies situation 30 mins before the police are called

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Re: Madeleine: Wherein lies the Truth

Post by nomendelta on 22.06.11 7:06

Having read Pat's book I have to say it's a good working basic theory which fits the basic facts as presented. Personally I think there is more to it and perhaps even Pat does but what she has done is created something that the McCanns will find hard to argue against. Thing is, as support for this grows the McCanns are in a no-win situation - it's not something they can ignore easily, Pat's got a high profile and can't be dismissed as a "disgraced" ex-cop. But if they decide to challenge it in any way...well they just might put their feet in it again and give Pat even more fuel to theorise from.

Looking forward to the oncoming fall-out!

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