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Martin Grime facts and explanations
Guest on Wed May 25, 2011 1:28 pm
Following on from Me's excellent recommendations, I have started a concise report for eventual entry into the Library, to aid with discrepencies raised over the dogs actions.
If anyone has already started this, please let me know and I will not go on any further. So far it reads;
Martin Grime U.K.A.C.P.O.
Accredited Police Dog Training Instructor.
Subject Matter Expert registered with the N.C.P.E.
Specialist Homicide Canine Search Advisor.
Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, with the FBI.
Dogs may only be deployed upon the request of a Senior Investigating Officer (S.I.O.) following a consultation with the appropriate S.M.E.'s and advisors.
They are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained.
Eddie - The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain.
Keela - The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.
The initial training of Eddie is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K., is not acceptable at this point in time. The following notes of guidance should be considered when assessing indications:
In six years of operational deployment in over 200 cases, the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs. The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'. Alerts given by the dog where no obvious human remains are found are supported by forensic evidence anecdotal witness accounts.
Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.RD., system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response. Although the dog is 'trained' using reward based methods the behaviour, the shaping and enforcement regime ensures that the dog does not produce a false alert.
Pseudo scent is a chemically produced product that its manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some trainers have had limited success, when tested on Martin Grime's dogs, they showed no interest.
Eddie will locate cadaver, whether in the whole or parts thereof.
Whether deposited surface or sub-surface to a depth of approximately 3-4 feet shortly after death to the advanced stages of deposition and putrefaction through to skeletal.
If the remains have been incinerated, he will still locate them even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved.
The dog will locate cadaver in water, either from the bank side or when deployed in a boat, where a large area may be covered using a gridding system.
The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles.
If there is no retrievable evidence for court purposes, it may well assist intelligence gathering in a Major Crime.
The dog will alert to the presence of 'dead body' scent ,whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site.
Keela will accurately locate human blood, on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.
The dog will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing, also crime scenes for minute human blood deposits.
In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to thirty-six years old.
In order for the dog to locate the source the blood, it must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities. Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location.
It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent. Forensic testing may not produce evidence but any alert may provide intelligence to support other factors in the investigation of a crime.
If anyone has already started this, please let me know and I will not go on any further. So far it reads;
Martin Grime U.K.A.C.P.O.
Accredited Police Dog Training Instructor.
Subject Matter Expert registered with the N.C.P.E.
Specialist Homicide Canine Search Advisor.
Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, with the FBI.
Dogs may only be deployed upon the request of a Senior Investigating Officer (S.I.O.) following a consultation with the appropriate S.M.E.'s and advisors.
They are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained.
Eddie - The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain.
Keela - The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.
The initial training of Eddie is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K., is not acceptable at this point in time. The following notes of guidance should be considered when assessing indications:
In six years of operational deployment in over 200 cases, the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs. The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'. Alerts given by the dog where no obvious human remains are found are supported by forensic evidence anecdotal witness accounts.
Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.RD., system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response. Although the dog is 'trained' using reward based methods the behaviour, the shaping and enforcement regime ensures that the dog does not produce a false alert.
Pseudo scent is a chemically produced product that its manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some trainers have had limited success, when tested on Martin Grime's dogs, they showed no interest.
Eddie will locate cadaver, whether in the whole or parts thereof.
Whether deposited surface or sub-surface to a depth of approximately 3-4 feet shortly after death to the advanced stages of deposition and putrefaction through to skeletal.
If the remains have been incinerated, he will still locate them even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved.
The dog will locate cadaver in water, either from the bank side or when deployed in a boat, where a large area may be covered using a gridding system.
The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles.
If there is no retrievable evidence for court purposes, it may well assist intelligence gathering in a Major Crime.
The dog will alert to the presence of 'dead body' scent ,whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site.
Keela will accurately locate human blood, on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.
The dog will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing, also crime scenes for minute human blood deposits.
In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to thirty-six years old.
In order for the dog to locate the source the blood, it must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities. Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location.
It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent. Forensic testing may not produce evidence but any alert may provide intelligence to support other factors in the investigation of a crime.
Guest- Guest
Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations
Me on Thu May 26, 2011 9:16 am
In six years of operational deployment in over 200 cases, the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs. The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'. Alerts given by the dog where no obvious human remains are found are supported by forensic evidence anecdotal witness accounts.
Oops! There goes the " we were taking rubbish to the tip defence".
Still not sure whether Eddie also alerts to blood as well as cadaver odour.
A defence cited for the Mccann's is that there was blood in the apartment (not Madeliene's blood of course, no way unless it was that nosebleed she had behind the sofa which we didnt remember until the blood was actually found, or the blood from when she fell down the airplane steps that was still bleeding when they got to the apartment) and that all Eddie did was alert to the presence of blood NOT cadaver odour.
Do we know any more info which can lay this defence to rest?
It seems strange that a cadaver dog would also alert to blood as well. How would you know what he is alerting to if that was the case? And what's the point then of having a second blood only dog?
Me- Posts: 646
Join date: 2011-05-22
Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations
Guest on Thu May 26, 2011 9:34 am
How spooky, I was just finding the proof to lay that one to rest as well.
I thought about this overnight, after preparing the list from yesterday.
Eddie can alert to blood, but this proves that he did independently alert to cadaver, on the basis that Keela did NOT alert in the same place, who is specifically trained to detect blood.
From the PJ Final Report
- cadaver odour dog:
*in the couple’s bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe;
*in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment;
- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog);
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
I thought about this overnight, after preparing the list from yesterday.
Eddie can alert to blood, but this proves that he did independently alert to cadaver, on the basis that Keela did NOT alert in the same place, who is specifically trained to detect blood.
From the PJ Final Report
- cadaver odour dog:
*in the couple’s bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe;
*in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment;
- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog);
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Last edited by Stella on Thu May 26, 2011 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Guest- Guest
Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations
Guest on Thu May 26, 2011 9:41 am
Me wrote:
It seems strange that a cadaver dog would also alert to blood as well. How would you know what he is alerting to if that was the case? And what's the point then of having a second blood only dog?
I have often asked that question myself, but having 2 independent dogs alerting in the exact same places, reinforces the findings I guess. Which is a good thing.
I think, but I'm still looking for a better explanation,
that Eddie detects blood from a cadaver. Whereas, Keela can find all types of blood, from a living or a dead person.
Guest- Guest
Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations
Me on Thu May 26, 2011 3:54 pm
Stella wrote:Me wrote:
It seems strange that a cadaver dog would also alert to blood as well. How would you know what he is alerting to if that was the case? And what's the point then of having a second blood only dog?
I have often asked that question myself, but having 2 independent dogs alerting in the exact same places, reinforces the findings I guess. Which is a good thing.
I think, but I'm still looking for a better explanation,
Can we not just give Martin a call?
Me- Posts: 646
Join date: 2011-05-22
Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations
Guest on Thu May 26, 2011 3:59 pm
I wish we could. But he has been gagged.
Guest- Guest
Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations
Me on Thu May 26, 2011 4:33 pm
Here's another one Stella you might be able to help with.
I've seen on some of the Pro forums that they hold credence to an issue with Cuddlecat (i think in the villa).
I recall from memory it went along the lines of the dog didn't alert to it in a basket (??) but did in a cupboard?
Can you clarify?
I've seen on some of the Pro forums that they hold credence to an issue with Cuddlecat (i think in the villa).
I recall from memory it went along the lines of the dog didn't alert to it in a basket (??) but did in a cupboard?
Can you clarify?
Me- Posts: 646
Join date: 2011-05-22
Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations
Guest on Thu May 26, 2011 5:03 pm
I'll have to have a think about that one.
I think form memory, there was 2 cuddlecats, one in the lounge in a basket, the other in the dresser. We know there was more than one cuddlecat, because the one Eddie alerted to was kept by the PJ at Martin Grime's request. Then there were many different pictures of different versions after that. But I will see what I can find.
I think form memory, there was 2 cuddlecats, one in the lounge in a basket, the other in the dresser. We know there was more than one cuddlecat, because the one Eddie alerted to was kept by the PJ at Martin Grime's request. Then there were many different pictures of different versions after that. But I will see what I can find.
Guest- Guest
Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations
lj on Thu May 26, 2011 5:10 pm
IIRC ther were multiple cuddlecats, I believe even more than 2.
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Join date: 2009-12-01
Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations
admin on Thu May 26, 2011 9:14 pm
Stella wrote:I wish we could. But he has been gagged.
I believe Stevo has chatted to Martin
admin- Site Manager
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Join date: 2010-05-18
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