Re: If Madeleine McCann died on Sunday 29 April, what was really going on behind the scenes that week?

by Vera Krista 18.01.22 21:59

Silentscope wrote:@Vera Krista Post #22

Manual Rolladen Apartment 5A Lounge window.

If it is manual, they are a bit unreliable, if you are not careful you can break the mechanism, I personally have done it, Sometimes it gets stuck either half way or just rolls down. So it's risky to pass through something through the gap for people who are not familiar with the system.

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 19.01.22 13:19

crusader wrote:In reply to MADELEINE McCANN RESEARCH GROUP.

1. Was there a high tea at all on that Thursday evening?

Maria Manuela Antonio Jose. cook Statement 6/5/07.
(Snipped from her statement)
The last time she saw Madeleine was aprox 4-30 3rd May when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant as she did each day of the week.

2. Even if there was such a communal high tea, do we have sufficient evidence that Madeleine was present,

The only person who says she saw Madeleine on 3rd at the high tea was Maria Jose, see above.
She said she didn't know who the missing child was until she saw a picture of her on tv, she then recognised her from the high tea.

3. Do we have concrete evidence, or at least very strong evidence, that Madeleine could not have been present at any high tea that day?

I don't think there is enough evidence to say Madeleine was not at the high tea on Thursday 3rd.

Are the research team saying there was no high tea any night, or just on the 3rd?

Cat Baker (Nanny) in her 18/4/08 statement said
Some children return for the afternoon session which includes accompanying them to high tea at about 5 in the afternoon.

Emma Wilding (Nanny) in her 7/5/07 statement said
the teachers took the children to eat something appropriate for their age at the tapas restaurant.

Jaqueline Williams ( Nanny) in her 8/5/07 statement said
She only had contact with Madeleines parents twice when they came to collect the twins after their meal which happened every day at about 5-30.

Graham McKenzie guest at the Ocean Club, in his 6/12/07 statement, said he saw the McCann party when children had high tea.

REPLYING TO crusader #24

First of all, thank you for your prompt reply answering our queries.

So far as whether there was a regular 'high tea' at about 4.30pm-5.30pm each day where the children had a bite to eat and their parents, we agree that the evidence you've quoted from Maria Jose, Cat Baker, Emma Wilding, Jacqueline Williams and Graham McKenzie is very good evidence that there was.

As to the evidence that Madeleine was at the 'high tea' on Thursday 3rd May, and having regard to the evidence from Cat Baker, Emma Wilding and Jacqueline Williams, we say that severe doubt must be cast on those initial witness statements as all three were carried out by Robert Murat.

Why should their witness evidence be in any doubt just because the interviews were carried out by Robert Murat?

Answer: Because there is reason to consider that there could have been an element of collusion between Robert Murat and the several nannies that he interviewed.

Why? Because:

1. It is highly likely that Robert Murat was urgently called over to Portugal to help with a cover-up of what actually happened to Madeleine
2. That suspicion is mightily heightened when we consider that he lied comprehensively to the Portuguese Police when first interviewed by them about his movements on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, 1st to 3rd May. He told at least 17 lies in his interview, all of which he formally admitted when re-interviewed on 10 & 11 July
3. There is evidence (provided by Paulo Reis) that Robert Murat was lined up to interview the nannies by prior arrangement with the British Ambassador and his staff, and
4. He was dismissed for gross misconduct as an interpreter by the Portuguese Police after working for them for about 7 days because he was constantly trying to steer their investigation along various irrelevant lines and was caught sneaking a look at confidential files on the desk of Inspector Varanda.

These are not the only indications that Murat is deeply untrustworthy.

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 19.01.22 14:27

crusader wrote:In reply to MADELEINE McCANN RESEARCH GROUP.

2. Even if there was such a communal high tea, do we have sufficient evidence that Madeleine was present,

3. Do we have concrete evidence, or at least very strong evidence, that Madeleine could not have been present at any high tea that day?

I don't think there is enough evidence to say Madeleine was not at the high tea on Thursday 3rd.

Cat Baker (Nanny) in her 18/4/08 statement said...

REPLY TO crusader #24

Without a shadow of a doubt, Catriona Baker is the single most important piece of evidence that Madeleine McCann was alive after Sunday 29th April.

Goncalo Amaral and his PJ team accepted that she was a genuine, independent witness whose evidence was therefore highly likely to be reliable. On that basis, the interim report of Tavares de Almeida affirmed that Madeleine McCann was alive and with her parents at around 5.30pm that Thursday evening. On that basis, Amaral himself featured her evidence in his book.

We also know from his recent book that he still looks upon this as a 'fact' and only makes a brief nod to theories held on this forum that Madeleine may have been dead, or at least suffered a serious event, on Sunday 29 April. He also has not ruled out the Smithman sighting.

In your post, you referred to her rogatory statement made on 18 April 2008. However, this was nearly a year after the events in question, giving her ample time to develop her account of events that week.

Below we examine the relevant parts of her first statement on 5 June:

Catriona Treasa Sisile Baker
Childcare Worker
Time/Date: 18H36 2007/05/06
British Citizen
Translated by Robert Murat

The informant is heard as a witness. Being of British nationality, she has no command of the Portuguese language in spoken or written form, because of which and because he is present, the person named: ROBERT MURAT residing at Casa Liliana, Ramalhete Road in Praia da Luz, 8600 Lagos, contactable via telephone no: 913...., offered to translate the interview.

In answer to our questions, she responds that she has been in Portugal since March 21st of this year and that this is her first visit to the country.

This was untrue. In her second statement, April 2008, she admits that she had been there a year earlier. We understand that she made this second statement after internet sleuths found out that she had been a nanny at Praia da Luz the previous spring.

Next, she says that she came to Portugal to work as a play leader, having obtained a contract of employment with the "Mark Warner" company. She states that her contract started on March 21st and ends on November 7th 2007, the date on which she will return to her own country. She points out that the company in question, in its turn, has a contract with the "OCEAN CLUB" tourist village to provide a child care service for parents who are clients of the village. She adds that in the tourist village, this type of child care takes place in four different places according to the ages of the children.

For children aged four months to one year it is the "Baby Club" which is close to the OCEAN CLUB's main reception. For children aged one to two years, it is the "Toddler" which is next to the "Tapas" restaurant. For children aged three to five years, it is the "Mini Club" which is also close to the Ocean Club's main reception. And finally, for children aged six to nine years and from ten to thirteen years, it is the "Junior Club" which is close to the "Millenium" restaurant.

To our question, she specifies that she is responsible for a group of children, similar in age to the missing minor and that each supervisor has around seven children who stay with the same supervisor for the week.

When asked she states that she knows the McCann family since last Sunday, 29th April, 2007, when they enrolled their daughter in the “Minis” service.

There is an element of doubt about this. It was established that Cat Baker was a Facebook friend of Chloe Corner (daughter of Jon Corner) by at least 2006. The Corners and the McCanns knew each other very well. Jon Corner was the godfather of Amelie. In an interview for popular U.S. magazine Vanity Fair, he described Madeleine as:

"So beautiful, astonishingly bright, and I'd have to say very charismatic. She would shine out of a crowd".

In November 2007, when we see the McCanns, the Tapas 7, Clarence Mitchell and a bevy of lawyers discussing Madeleine4's disappearance at Rothley, we see photos of Cat Baker very much at home with the McCann family. In her book, 'madeleine', Kate McCann is at great pains to emphasise how, all of a sudden, she and Madeleine hit it off' with each other so well. Is that the truth? Or did Cat Baker already know the McCanns prior to 2007? It is at least a distinct possibility.

She replies that since that date and until Thursday, the 03rd of May, 2007, she was with Madeleine every day, but is unable to specify if she was present on the Sunday morning.

Questioned, she responds that since she has been working with the little girl, it has seemed to her that the parents were attentive to their daughter given that they asked what Madeleine had done in the creche and that they even accompanied Madeleine a few times in certain outside activities. Concerning the little girl, she states that she was an active and sociable child. Only on the first day was she more reticent with the group.

The informant reports that during the time that Madeleine was entrusted to her care, at no time did it seem to her that the little girl was sad or unhappy, and she never made any comment about being cross, sad or discontent about anything. She also reports that she was an obedient child who never wandered from the group and who never spoke to strangers.

When asked, the informant responds that it was always the parents who brought Madeleine and fetched her from the "Mini Club."

When questioned, she responds that in the course of her work, on the company's premises and outside (as described above) she has never noticed anyone in particular or suspicious watching the children with whom she was working. She did not notice anyone taking photos of the children and notably of Madeleine. She states that she never heard her colleagues refer to such things either.

The informant states that in the context of the disappearance of the minor, Madeleine, she saw nothing and was not aware of any reason which might explain the disappearance. Finally, the informant advises that in the few years that she has been working in this profession, for the same company, in various countries, she has never heard anyone talk of an event of this kind.

The informant states that since she has been in Portugal, in addition to the British people and her colleagues, she has got to know people outside the tourist company, some of Portuguese nationality but mostly British people whom she associates with when going out at night to enjoy herself. During her evenings out no one has asked her about her work, or about the children, or the McCann family in particular.

Given the amount of time Cat Baker is supposed to have spent with Madeleine, this statement seems very vague and remarkably short of detail.

Can we ask what relative weight you give to the following three lines of evidence?

1. The Last Photo clearly being taken on Sunday not Thursday

2. The absence of any reliable photos of Madeleine after Sunday, and

3. Cat Baker's evidence above.

Thanks

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 19.01.22 17:13

REPLYING TO onehand #21

You wrote a piece: 'About looking for DNA'. Thank you very much for that informative post. In that article you wrote:

"Look back at the first set of pictures from the pj files of 5a, all clothes that have been worn are together on a shelve in the parents bedroom, jackets on furniture, same picture as the blue bag. also a lot of that and possibly other pieces of clothing that have been worn by madeleine alone, was washed very early. with the help of the ambassador of the uk".

REPLY: It is one of the most extraordinary features of this case that a British Ambassador stepped in to prevent the Portuguese Police from obtaining evidence. In the UK that is a criminal offence called: "Perverting the course of justice".

You also wrote:

"what we have seen in this case is a lot of natural and instinct behaviour of people. if you miss something, you go looking. a missing child works the same, all actions are going into finding the lost child. look how many people told they had looked in 5a for madeleine, as if she was hiding somewhere. people had looked under the bed they say, in the closets, meaning all what could have had been a unique item with madeleines dna, was already contaminated before the gnr officers arrived, and they also had to take a look".

REPLY: Yes, this is what people normally do. But the only people who say they hunted high and low for Madeleine inside Apartment G5A that night were the McCanns and the Tapas group.

You also wrote:

"the pillowcase from rothley was not seen as the true source of dna from madeleine, they did simply checked it against that of the parents and the twins, and the result was, it had a high chance to be from a natural child of these parents. it was the blood card taken shortly after her birth, that was the proof to say it was indeed the dna of madeleine".

REPLY: Do you have the link please where you say they got Madeleine's DNA from her blood card? - thanks

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 19.01.22 17:25

REPLYING TO onehand #23

You wrote:

"the nannie talked enough, but what i miss in her story is, how many children she had to transport by foot to the tapas area. that was easy, it was or 3 children 2 boys and 1 girl, or more likely because both boys would not take part in the high tea, this nanny did not need sammy, she could just get madeleine by her hand and walk to the tapas. and i want to hear that back in the nannies statements. these are things that will stick in your memory.

"if you really take a look into the story of the same nanny, about the boating adventure, you will find what and how she tells what take place, you see it is impossible, this was a formal statement, i want to know why did she lie? count children, 2 boats, only two extra sets of hands in the boats and how many seatings available per trip. she had to leave children alone on that beach, no one would got her arse in a boat and play happy nannie and left two under 5 year olds alone on the beach. if this did not happen, there was another statement that would tell more about this event that could give back up. this story is simply not true.

"so i have a witness, that has no problem to tell a s..t story in a formal statement, that also is the last independent witness that did see the child. no, not hard enough.

"the more recent netflix info that madeleine had saved 'a lost hat' in exactly that same excursion, means one of the two tells a lie. but maybe both do.

"it is the story of the upset girl in the boat, on the lap of her nannie, or the tom boy who had no fear of that water and dived in after a hat. not both in that little amount of time.

"we also have another nannie, the fairy, that not showed up in the statements, or any other moment in time in the story of the nannie cat who was the one who was responsible for madeleine her group".

Thank you for that. Regarding the bolded bits above, about the 'hat', was this in the Netflix Maddie documentary? If yes, please could you tell us a bit more about this alleged incident of the hat? Thanks if you can help

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 19.01.22 17:28

Silentscope wrote:@Vera Krista Post #22

Manual Rolladen Apartment 5A Lounge window.

These are the so-called 'blood spatters' on the wall, actually just body fluids I think. IIRC one or two of these were traced to former occupants of the property. None were connected to the McCanns

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 19.01.22 18:00

crusader wrote:In reply to MADELEINE McCANN RESEARCH GROUP.

...Emma Wilding (Nanny) in her 7/5/07 statement said the teachers took the children to eat something appropriate for their age at the tapas restaurant...

REPLY: Let us examine Emma Wilding's statement insofar as it concerns Madeleine:

STATEMENT FROM EMMA WILDING

She provides a statement because she works at the Mini Club within the Ocean Club tourist complex at Praia da Luz in Lagos.

She didn't look after Madeleine that week

She states that she does not speak Portuguese and is accompanied by an interpreter, Robert Murat, residing at Casa Liliana, Rua do Ramalhete at Praia da Luz in Lagos, phone xxxxxx...

Nearly all of the nannies' statements were taken by Robert Murat

Since she arrived from England nobody has questioned her about the operation of the Ocean Club nor of the Mini Club nor about Madeline (sic). When questioned she states that she knows Madeline's (sic) parents because although Madeleine is not in her group, she frequently speaks to her parents, and finds their concerns and interests normal and typical of parents.

She speaks only about the parents in this sentence, not Madeleine: "she knows Madeleine's parents", "she frequently speaks to her parents". No detail whatsoever about Madeleine.

When questioned she states that there are parents that leave their respective children during the whole day and every day at the clubs, and that this is normal within British culture. With respect to Madeleine, she states that she spent most of her time at the Mini Club. The children began arriving at 0900 until 1230 when their respective parents collected them for lunch, and returned at 1430 until 1645 when the Infants' teachers took the children to eat something appropriate for their age at the Tapas restaurant. Most of the parents met their respective children here, and the children then remained in their parents' care. When questioned she states that on May 3, 2007 it was the father that took Madeleine, as was customary, between 0900 and 0930; she remembers that she just said 'hello' to him, because as Madeline (sic) did not belong to her group she did not talk to him very much. She only noticed Madeleine and not her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual.

An obvious contradiction: First 'he just said 'hello' to him (Gerry)', but then 'she only noticed Madeleine and not her father'

She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine's group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew's (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch.

So she is not sure about what happened in the morning. She 'remembers' that Gerry McCann 'went to fetch Madeleine', and maybe he indeed said so to her. But she did not see Madeleine that morning.

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine's group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, and does not remember having seen anybody specifically taking direct and close-up photographs of the children.

Again, she has not actually seen Madeleine. She is 'not sure' she was in the group

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

This does not tell us that she actually saw Madeleine.

She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary.

No evidence from Emma Wilding, then, about Madeleine being at the 'high tea'.

During this period of time she did not notice anybody or anything out of the ordinary, as her attention was wholly focused on the children. That night, at around 2200 she learned that Madeleine had disappeared, and together with her colleagues she helped look for her. As regards Madeleine, she did not spent much time with her because she was not in her group; she did not know her well, but Madeleine appeared to be somewhat shy, this was noticeable the first days. Since she met her, she noticed nothing abnormal in any aspect that would point to Madeleine being a child that was out of the ordinary. As regards the disappearance itself, she states that she was shocked, as it was the first time such a thing had happened. She knows nothing more about this matter that would be of interest for the case. She says nothing further.

Madeleine wasn't in her group. We suggest that this statement falls well short of being 'credible and reliable' evidence that Madeleine was alive after Sunday. During the all-important Thursday 3rd May, she was with Madeleine's group part of the day but has no recollection of her at all.

by Guest 19.01.22 18:20

first the blood card is a bit hidden.

On 12 October 2007, the Forensic Science Service(R) received a blood spot in a cardboard frame (object JRB/1) from Leicestershire Constabulary. That object was inside a sealed package.

translation of the lowe report this text is near the original pages in this link, no. 305 and 306

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

if you scroll down in that link, til you see the original pages no.314 this is the text part you need;

Reference sample of blood

JRB/1 Madeleine McCann
From this sample was obtained a DNA reference sample that was different from those of her immediate family, described above. This DNA profile was the same as that obtained from possible spots of saliva existing on the pillowcase (SJM/1).

this link is the one about how they tried to get madeleines dna coupled to a secure source. i know it is a fair bit of technical blabla, but worth to read.

step 1 was simply verifying if a certain sample could be a natural child from kate and gerry,
step 2 was done to see if it was indeed different from that of her siblings, most importantly her sister.
step 3 was the blood card jrb/1 this was successfully linked to the dna from the pillowcase from rotley and used for further analysis.

if you use ctrl+f to seach the translation , just fill in the jrb/1 .

by Guest 19.01.22 19:00

yes, the ambassador played a role, i never heard of, not only the assistance by himself, but actively going there himself, it is usually just a consul, or some consular secretary who get into contact. and mostly by phone, not in person even.

it is not the usual protocole, and hardly to see as part of his duties.

i always thought, who would they have send there, if it was in the uk, the queen?

one of the tasks of an ambassador is indeed the protection of citizens, but in real life, that is more ceremonial, and one of his hands would do the following up into that task. it is what you expect to be above his pay grade.

there is one big problem with diplomats abroad, they are inviolable! or in simple words, you cannot get after them. the only thing you can do is kick then out.

the not tapas 9 who did say they have looked are the nannie charlotte , the fairy one. but all her tellings i like to take with a fair bit of fairy dust. her story line has a bit of a smell that if she wrote herself in a play.
one of the others was silvia batista. those are the ones who did say they have been in 5a before the gnr officers arrived. but their could have been others.

i can not help you with the madeleine saved a hat story, it was indeed from the netflix series, and i have read it somewhere in the media after that. my understanding and memory tells me, it must have been a comment in that series from stephen carpenter, ik my memory is correct. most about that series and the scoops in it are already somewhere on this forum, and maybe i saved a link to it, from where i got it.

it was a part from a father of a girl, that was by his words part of the same kids club as madeleine, there was a picture of the parachute game to go with it. and i remember a picture of that family together at home was in the same article. probably from the daily mail.

by Guest 19.01.22 19:26

i'm wrong it was neil berry, the part is also in the transcript of the series;

Neil Berry: We arrived literally the same Saturday that the McCann's and their party arrived at Praia da Luz. It was a typical family holiday, really. It's a mediteranian resort, the sun was shining for late April. We were happy with that.
Jayne Jensen: We knew Gerry from our tennis group. He was well dressed, great sense of humour. You don't actually stand talking an awful lot, because obviously you're worried far more about your backhand or your lob [Chuckles]
Neil Berry: This is Jessica, my eldest, who was four and a half here, and she benefited most from the holiday by being part of the kids club. [Neil Points to a picture of a woman and 5 children] So, this is Jessie here playing ringleader [Neil points to the tallest girl on the left side of the pictre] And, uh, this is Madeleine here. They were of the similar age, months in it, and they became as thick as thieves. I remember they'd been out sailing, which I thought was quite brave of the kids club, but they took them out on the sea. And, um, they were together in the boat. Jess's only real recollection of the holiday was where Jess lost her straw summer hat in the sea and Madeleine launching herself in to recover it for her, much to the alarm of the kids club staff who swiftly grabbed her and dragged her back into the boat.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t16091-netflix-transcript-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann?highlight=netflix

by Guest 19.01.22 19:39

and the story from cat the nannie;

I never noted anything strange in Madeleine's comportment during the time I stayed with her. There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10H30 in the morning, where she cried at the launch of the yellow safety boat in the ocean where all the children were sailing. She was scared and fearful and cried on my lap "I am scared, I am scared." We only used the launches to transport the children to the small yellow boats. When we returned to the other boat she was happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play. Apart from being a happy child in the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine did not demonstrate any fear with the return launch to land.

from; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm

by sandancer 19.01.22 20:35

Neil Berrys version of the children sailing with Madeleine launching herself into the sea for his daughters hat , never mentioned for years until the Netflix documentary , the alarm of the staff , being dragged back into the boat ! Really !?!

Surely if anything like this happened she would have to be dried off and taken to have her clothes changed , the parents notified ? Kate makes no mention in her account of the truth of her daughters amazing bravery !

Cat Bakers version , " I'm scared , I'm scared " totally opposite !

So who is lying , one or both , and why ?

by Guest 19.01.22 22:25

to sandancer,

but how many people do know about both these stories, both are not in the statements at the start of the investigation.

and how many people look into the practical side of things, indeed it was no tropical summer paradise, so the cloths would not quickly have dried out, the mccanns never talked about she get wet during a beach activity.

cat is very good in telling how all activity had to be done, she hardly tells about what really happened, but what should have happened. that is the red line in all her statements and comments.

the story about madeleine being scared in the boat, is only half the story, no word about she told the parents what had happened, that same parents she tells us, ask on a regular basis what madeleine had done on the club.

the hat story is not in cat her memory, but you would expect cat would have to tell the parents why and how she got wet. it is very unlikely parents would otherwise not ask for an explanation, but that memory is not in any word from kate to find, not in a statement, not in one of the private or media interviews, nor in her book.

if you read the statements of cat, all give in my opinion reason to think she was an instructed witness. from my view most likely, this has a ground in the mark warner company. so she talks a lot, but say nothing, and put in a anecdote that in her eyes would fit. something that once did happen, but not with madeleine on that holiday.

in my view both stories are not true.

by crusader 19.01.22 22:35

In reply to the 3 questions from MMRG.

1. The Last Photo clearly being taken on Sunday not Thursday

Weather for Sunday 29th April
Clear all day
Temperature 18 and 19c with lows of 10.

Weather for Wednesday 3rd May
Mostly scattered cloud
Temperature at 1-30 to 2-30 18 to 19 with lows of 14
Temperature at 5-30 to 6-3o 18 to 19 with lows of 13.

Looking at the photos at the Paraiso Restaurant 5-30 to 6-30, we see Fiona Payne in a skimpy halter neck top with bare arms
Matt Oldfield in shorts and tee shirt.
A woman who looks like she has been swimming, her hair wrapped in a towel.
Children in lightweight summer clothes with short sleeves.
Other diners in shorts and tee shirts.
The sun can clearly be seen shining and casting shadows on the veranda of the restaurant.
The details above give me reason to believe there was some warmth and sunshine on 3rd May.

2. The absence of any reliable photos of Madeleine after Sunday, and

In Gerry's 10th May statement, he said he had no other photos of Madeleine apart from those already given to the authorities.
Soon after he returned from UK on 22nd May the last photo was released.
This in my opinion is not the behaviour of a parent who believes his daughter has been taken by paedophiles.

3. Cat Baker's evidence above.

In her statement 6/5/07 she said she had been in Portugal since March 21st of this year and this is her first visit to country.
In her Rogatory statement 18/4/08 she said "I was contracted by Mark Warner in June 2006, the first time I went to Portugal was 21st march 06"

I believe this to be a mistake and should be 2007.
If she applied work at Ocean Club on or before June 2006, it is reasonable to assume it was for the following year 2007.

As for Emma Wilding not having contact with Madeleine,
My reply was in answer to proof of high tea and not whether Madeleine was there.

by Guest 20.01.22 7:49

Weather for Wednesday 3rd May
Mostly scattered cloud
Temperature at 1-30 to 2-30 18 to 19 with lows of 14
Temperature at 5-30 to 6-3o 18 to 19 with lows of 13

Small correction..

Thursday 3rd May.

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 20.01.22 17:59

onehand wrote:yes, the ambassador played a role, i never heard of, not only the assistance by himself, but actively going there himself, it is usually just a consul, or some consular secretary who get into contact. and mostly by phone, not in person even.

it is not the usual protocol, and hardly to see as part of his duties.

i always thought, who would they have send there, if it was in the uk, the queen?

one of the tasks of an ambassador is indeed the protection of citizens, but in real life, that is more ceremonial, and one of his hands [assistants - MMR] would do the following up into that task. it is what you expect to be above his pay grade.

nannie charlotte , the fairy one. but all her tellings i like to take with a fair bit of fairy dust. her story line has a bit of a smell that if she wrote herself in a play.

REPLYING TO onehand #34

The above observations are very helpful, thank you.

The way the Ambassador went hugely out of his way on a personal intervention on behalf of the McCanns in Praia da Luz is surely a powerful indication that the interests of the nation of the United Kingdom - or of its most powerful citizens - was at stake in this case

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 20.01.22 18:16

onehand wrote:i'm wrong it was neil berry, the part is also in the transcript of the series;

Neil Berry: We arrived literally the same Saturday that the McCann's and their party arrived at Praia da Luz. It was a typical family holiday, really. It's a Mediterranian resort, the sun was shining for late April. We were happy with that.
Jayne Jensen: We knew Gerry from our tennis group. He was well dressed, great sense of humour. You don't actually stand talking an awful lot, because obviously you're worried far more about your backhand or your lob [Chuckles]
Neil Berry: This is Jessica, my eldest, who was four and a half here, and she benefited most from the holiday by being part of the kids club. [Neil Points to a picture of a woman and 5 children] So, this is Jessie here playing ringleader [Neil points to the tallest girl on the left side of the picture] And, uh, this is Madeleine here. They were of the similar age, months in it, and they became as thick as thieves. I remember they'd been out sailing, which I thought was quite brave of the kids club, but they took them out on the sea. And, um, they were together in the boat. Jess's only real recollection of the holiday was where Jess lost her straw summer hat in the sea and Madeleine launching herself in to recover it for her, much to the alarm of the kids club staff who swiftly grabbed her and dragged her back into the boat.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t16091-netflix-transcript-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann?highlight=netflix

Thank you for these excerpts from the Netflix documentary, which we think most people on CMOMM have probably not seen.

It is amazing the lengths to which those on that holiday have gone to, in order to back up the McCanns' story of the week. The bit we've bolded in red looks like sheer invention, and actually reminds us of how, in the Stuart Lubbock case, one of the guests claimed that Stuart was throwing his cap around the pool the night he was fond dead, also a complete invention.

When the ambulance service arrived to recover Stuart's body from the poolside, the guest drew the paramedics' attention to the floating cap - cunningly providing 'proof' that he really had just been rescued from the swimming pool.

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 20.01.22 18:28

onehand wrote:and the story from cat the nannie;

I never noted anything strange in Madeleine's comportment during the time I stayed with her. There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10H30 in the morning, where she cried at the launch of the yellow safety boat in the ocean where all the children were sailing. She was scared and fearful and cried on my lap "I am scared, I am scared." We only used the launches to transport the children to the small yellow boats. When we returned to the other boat she was happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play. Apart from being a happy child in the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine did not demonstrate any fear with the return launch to land.

from; http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm

Fascinating!

So, according to Cat Baker, Madeleine was crying on her lap that day, sobbing 'I'm scared, I'm scared'.

Yet later, according to Neil Berry, she was jumping into the sea to rescue a hat, and had to be "pulled back into the boat".

This brings us back to MMRG's purpose in launching this thread - namely, to analyse who did what after Sunday, and before the cry of 'abduction!' rang out over the Ocean Club at around 10pm on Thursday 3 May.

So let us ask these questions:

1. Who decided to pretend that Madeleine was at the Thursday 'high tea'?
2. Who decided that David Payne and Kate McCann were to pretend to have met each other around 6.30m that Thursday?
3. Who invented Madeleine being out in a boat and jumping in to rescue a hat that Thursday afternoon?
4. Who suggested that Nuno Lourenco should invent a tale about his daughter nearly being abducted in Sagres?
5. Who was the 'controlling mind', or who were the 'controlling minds', who made up these and other stories? The McCanns? The Tapas Group? The U.K. Secret Service?

by Silentscope 20.01.22 18:52

@Madeleine McCann Research Post #17 reply.

REPLY TO silentscope #10

We found a very interesting discussion about when Gerry reported the shutters broken on a thread from 2017. Here are some excerpts:

LUIS FERRO AND JOAO CARLOS SILVA BATISTA WASHING MACHINE AND FIXING SHUTTERS

#7 (Guest)

I wish we knew when exactly GM approached maintenance and asked for help with shutters and washing machine. The evidence of cadaver is established, so I want to know exactly when Gerry felt confident enough to allow maintenance workers into the apartment. We know JCS Batista's day off was Monday - I believe a lot could be inferred if we knew when he was contacted - was it Monday or Tuesday? Rhetorical question... Very intriguing!

#13 (roz)

I've just finished reading Kate Mccann's book and I'm intrigued as to why she recounts this episode. She contradicts Luis Ferro who, by saying they 'also taught the mother how to use the washing machine', implies that the shutters were attended to first - which in turn shows KM would be there for the entire duration. I'm also curious about what KM says about the shutters:

"Gerry had also managed to break the window mechanism in our bedroom, shortly after we'd arrived, in spite of the sign asking guests to be gentle with it. What can I say... It's the Gerry touch! "

Silentscope replied:

Gerry had spent according to my own research, Sep 2004 to Jan 2005 living in accommodation near the VU Amsterdam in the Amstelveen district of Amsterdam.
I find it hard to believe he would not know how roller blinds work. When they are in regular use, however, they do break quite often.

Asking how the washing machine works is interesting. If there were instructions on how to use the Blinds, there would also be instructions on how to use other items or?

The reference to the U.K. Local Election closing at 22:00 that very night 03 May - makes more sense than the Tapas being closed on Friday for a Tennis Club meeting.

Maybe someone told the parents not to call the abduction in until any possibility of disruption to voting was over? Due to new rules on Postal and Internet Voting, counting was only started on Friday.

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 20.01.22 18:54

onehand wrote:to sandancer,

but how many people do know about both these stories, both are not in the statements at the start of the investigation.

and how many people look into the practical side of things, indeed it was no tropical summer paradise, so the clothes would not quickly have dried out, the Mccanns never talked about she get wet during a beach activity.

cat is very good in telling how all activity had to be done, she hardly tells about what really happened, but what should have happened. that is the red line in all her statements and comments.

The story about madeleine being scared in the boat, is only half the story, no word about she told the parents what had happened, that same parents she tells us, ask on a regular basis what madeleine had done on the club.

The hat story is not in cat her memory, but you would expect cat would have to tell the parents why and how she got wet. it is very unlikely parents would otherwise not ask for an explanation, but that memory is not in any word from Kate to find, not in a statement, not in one of the private or media interviews, nor in her book.

If you read the statements of cat, all give in my opinion reason to think she was an instructed witness. from my view most likely, this has a ground in the mark warner company. so she talks a lot, but say nothing, and put in a anecdote that in her eyes would fit. something that once did happen, but not with madeleine on that holiday.

in my view both stories are not true.

Excellent analysis. Thank you for your post.

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 20.01.22 19:08

crusader wrote:In reply to the 3 questions from MMRG.

1. The Last Photo clearly being taken on Sunday not Thursday

Weather for Sunday 29th April
Clear all day
Temperature 18 and 19c with lows of 10.

Weather for Thursday [corrected - MMRG] 3rd May
Mostly scattered cloud
Temperature at 1-30 to 2-30 18 to 19 with lows of 14
Temperature at 5-30 to 6-30 18 to 19 with lows of 13.

Looking at the photos at the Paraiso Restaurant 5-30 to 6-30, we see Fiona Payne in a skimpy halter neck top with bare arms
Matt Oldfield in shorts and tee shirt. A woman who looks like she has been swimming, her hair wrapped in a towel. Children in lightweight summer clothes with short sleeves. Other diners in shorts and tee shirts. The sun can clearly be seen shining and casting shadows on the veranda of the restaurant. The details above give me reason to believe there was some warmth and sunshine on 3rd May.

REPLY: The weather records for that day, and photos from that day, are very clear. It was cloudy until about 4pm. The sun gradually came out, and by 5pm it was sunny and clearly warming up. In the 'Last Photo', taken we know from the shadows at about 1.35pm BST, there are many indications of very sunny conditions prevailing: sunglasses, shorts, sheen of perspiration on Gerry McCanns's forehead, shorts, sun-hats. It is absolutely not possible that that photo was taken on Thursday

2. The absence of any reliable photos of Madeleine after Sunday, and

In Gerry's 10th May statement, he said he had no other photos of Madeleine apart from those already given to the authorities.
Soon after he returned from UK on 22nd May the last photo was released. This in my opinion is not the behaviour of a parent who believes his daughter has been taken by paedophiles.

REPLY: Agreed

3. Cat Baker's evidence above.

In her statement 6/5/07 she said she had been in Portugal since March 21st of this year and this is her first visit to country.
In her Rogatory statement 18/4/08 she said "I was contracted by Mark Warner in June 2006, the first time I went to Portugal was 21st march 06".

I believe this to be a mistake and should be 2007. If she applied work at Ocean Club on or before June 2006, it is reasonable to assume it was for the following year 2007.

REPLY: We concede that your analysis may be correct.

As for Emma Wilding not having contact with Madeleine, my reply was in answer to proof of high tea and not whether Madeleine was there.

REPLY: Yes, true, thank you. That there was commonly a so-called 'high tea' that day seems to be proved. We took the opportunity to also analyse the vagueness of Emma Wilding's statements about Madeleine that week.

See replies in purple above.

by **Madeleine McCann Research** 20.01.22 19:16

Silentscope wrote:@Madeleine McCann Research Post #17 reply.

REPLY TO silentscope #10

We found a very interesting discussion about when Gerry reported the shutters broken on a thread from 2017. Here are some excerpts:

LUIS FERRO AND JOAO CARLOS SILVA BATISTA WASHING MACHINE AND FIXING SHUTTERS

#7 (Guest)

I wish we knew when exactly GM approached maintenance and asked for help with shutters and washing machine. The evidence of cadaver is established, so I want to know exactly when Gerry felt confident enough to allow maintenance workers into the apartment. We know JCS Batista's day off was Monday - I believe a lot could be inferred if we knew when he was contacted - was it Monday or Tuesday? Rhetorical question... Very intriguing!

#13 (roz)

I've just finished reading Kate Mccann's book and I'm intrigued as to why she recounts this episode. She contradicts Luis Ferro who, by saying they 'also taught the mother how to use the washing machine', implies that the shutters were attended to first - which in turn shows KM would be there for the entire duration. I'm also curious about what KM says about the shutters:

"Gerry had also managed to break the window mechanism in our bedroom, shortly after we'd arrived, in spite of the sign asking guests to be gentle with it. What can I say... It's the Gerry touch! "

Silentscope replied:

Gerry had spent according to my own research, Sep 2004 to Jan 2005 living in accommodation near the VU Amsterdam in the Amstelveen district of Amsterdam.
I find it hard to believe he would not know how roller blinds work. When they are in regular use, however, they do break quite often.

Asking how the washing machine works is interesting. If there were instructions on how to use the Blinds, there would also be instructions on how to use other items or?

The reference to the U.K. Local Election closing at 22:00 that very night 03 May - makes more sense than the Tapas being closed on Friday for a Tennis Club meeting.

Maybe someone told the parents not to call the abduction in until any possibility of disruption to voting was over? Due to new rules on Postal and Internet Voting, counting was only started on Friday.

REPLY: Asking for help with BOTH the blinds AND the washing machine so early in the week (Monday) is wholly consistent with Madeleine having suffered a serious adverse event the day before (Sunday)

by Silentscope 20.01.22 20:24

@Madeleine McCann Research

I agree, if the reported broken Shutters had been in the Childrens room, it would have been a huge ‘Red Flag’.

But it was the Parents room Blinds.

HOWEVER - It may have relevance still. Not forgetting that the Cleaner reported seeing a Cot in the Parents room on Wednesday during the week. This was later denied by the McCanns.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm

Maybe the original ‘Abduction’ planning involved a supposed break in from the Balcony, into the Parents bedroom?
By first ‘breaking’ the Shutters, and then getting them repaired, it would provide ‘proof’ of them being in order BEFORE the alleged Event.

The full length sliding doors in the Parents room would be ideal to carry off a Child in arms. No climbing was necessary. Down the Balcony steps to the Street below.

Having thought it through, and realising it was too easily traced, the Cot was moved into the Childrens bedroom, and the Beds rearranged to facilitate the entry through the other Shutters, which had no record of being checked or repaired.

And led to the dark Car park, where Jane said she feared to tread.

by Jonal 21.01.22 12:30

Under "CHECKABLE EVENTS THAT WEEK (FOR WHICH WE HAVE INDEPENDENT EVIDENCE]" is: "around 8pm-10pm A tall man, accompanied by a young child, apparently late in the evening, makes an urgent request to Ocean Club reception ..." May I ask, where does this time come from? What suggests urgency? Who said the tall man was accompanied by a young child? I have checked through the witness statement by receptionist Luisa Coutinho and other than the man was tall found none of these things, much less that she identifies MM. (An impression of that from the given translation would be wrong.) The receptionist worked - on Thursday at least - 09:00-19:00, was she working late on Sunday?

by Guest 21.01.22 13:23

the statement you refer to tells this;

She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the elements of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.

When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUISA_COUTINHO.htm

from other statements it is known the tall man must have been russell o'brien, and that it was very unlikely the child, was not madeleine, russell has 2 daughter himself.

both daughters and madeleine would fit in the description of small or young child. it is very usual to call children under 6 small or young. the man himself use the words small children in his presentation to the witness. and end from that up into her statement.

an urgent request, does not per se mean a urgency, as in with haste, but also you want exactly what you ask.
being serious in your request. you do not want to hear no.

the rest of your questions are for the mmrg group to answer.

If Madeleine McCann died on Sunday 29 April, what was really going on behind the scenes that week?

Which of these is the single most important reason for you believing that Madeleine died before Thursday?