Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Amaral: David Payne comes here to help the child's mother to give them bath,..

BlueBag wrote:

Amaral: David Payne comes here to help the child's mother to give them bath,..

Where did he get this information?

If it's really based on anything we are in nonce territory.

BlueBag wrote:

Amaral: David Payne comes here to help the child's mother to give them bath,..

Where did he get this information?

If it's really based on anything we are in nonce territory.

As early as 4th of May, in the morning, there is a British social worker who was nearby who came here to give support,

to tell the couple not to talk too much with the media and saw this individual.

Shortly after sighting the individual she was kick off literally and in the statements she gives the police is that she knew David Payne of lawsuits in England.

She do not know if he was a witness or suspect. This line of inquiry we also never knew the result in England

Get'emGonçalo wrote:Another quote from Amaral: "It would be interesting to know the reason why Mr David Payne is not taking part in the reconstitution. He might explain for how long he bathed the children and at what time."

Female reporter: You always placed on the table an accident scene followed by hiding of corpse.


Amaral: This was always the most diplomatic hypothesis, not wanting to get too far into another type of scenario.
------

Female reporter: But is there another line that can be followed, that of homicide? Can not be dismiss?

Amaral: The public ministry even speaks of homicide, of me you never heard of homicide and will never hear.

Female reporter: You have a strong conviction that was not ...

Amaral: It is not a matter of having convictions, the indications that I have looked at them and the report that makes the context of the suspicions of the police is this.

That here has occurred a death, in principle, accidental and nothing more than this, followed by a corpse concealment.

The rest is a line of inquiry that has to be continued.

Get'emGonçalo wrote:I seem to remember Linda McQueen mentioned something aswell about David Payne and the bathtime routines.

I was trying to find it on my blog this morning...there was a link to a Correio da Manhã article but the link doesn't work anymore.

Linda McQueen with Gerry McCann

Regarding Yvonne Martin... yes... Goncalo Has referred to her in interviews and there was some very odd things that happened. Don't quote me yet, but I recall she showed up for interviews and yet was not interviewed (at least as far as we know)

THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MADELEINE McCANN: A CRIME SCENE RECONSTRUCTION (Part One) wrote:
(P): We also have this individual’s profile ready to go through in a moment but first (here addressing FMF) what we have here is a great discrepancy, is it not? (From) thirty seconds to thirty minutes, the difference is brutal!

(FMF): It is indeed – and it is very odd too. It is rather strange (bizarre) that in the nucleus of a group of friends, one of them bathes the children of the others – and all that seems entirely natural to them! Worst of all,  none of the detectives (past and present) interpellates this state of affairs from an investigative standpoint.

Bathing our children is something that lies in a region we might describe as very personal, of a deep affective bond (…)

(GA): Interrupts. “I think there is a denunciation (report) about …” (unclear).

(P): We will get there. We have that prepared…

(FMP): This (kind of scenario) is important to us as parents – and by the way, we are all parents here so –  surely it would seem bizarre to any of us, to have someone from outside our families come  to bath our children for us !

(P): Of course! We will address that in a moment.

(FMF): (wrapping up) And therefore, (in this case) a reconstruction was necessary to clarify what such a state of affairs was all about.

(P): Gonçalo Amaral, concerning this serious doubt  –  that is, the time this person (Payne) stayed in the McCann’s apartment – surely, at the time of your investigation, doubts must have been raised about how long this person stayed in the apartment, no?

(GA): Those doubts are (referred to) in an interim report elaborated by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida in September 2007 – and are clearly outlined (in that report) along with some conclusions drawn from them.

(Incidentally, this is) the very same report the parents of this child, and their lawyers, deeply dislike. They argue it is just old stuff, old history”, but history can be relevant (to understand events).

Translators’ note:  “history” and “story” are homophones in Portuguese.

It was after all this doctor (Dr. David Payne) who, on behalf of his friends, had organized this trip to the Ocean Club (adding) as he had organized others for them before.

(And it is interesting to note in this context that) that  ten days after the event in May  (Madeleine McCann’s disappearance), we have two other doctors – the Gaspars – denouncing him to the police in England.  These doctors were friends who, in the past , had spent (at least) a holiday together with him (David Payne and the McCanns’) and yet did not hesitate to report him to the police.

(P): We also have that topic prepared …

(GA): Here we seem to have a state of affairs that, on occasion, has driven me to speculate about the whys  and wherefores of what exactly lies behind all this…

Translators’ note: GA is possibly referring here to the governmental and diplomatic interference, the ever present public relations and the on-going  reputation management of Madeleine’s disappearance.

(We know) there are many children which have gone missing in England – but in no other instance has the British Government preoccupied itself with them – certainly nothing like to the extent that they have done with this child!

Of course, one may assume this was because the parents were doctors (and it may have been perceived as if the British medical establishment was on trial) but I would still  ask – why all this governmental interference ?

I do question myself and, I must stress, the reason may not have anything to do with  it (the disappearance) as such.  I often question myself about what exactly went on and what is still  going on (..).

I will put it to you very directly – and yet after careful consideration. They (the English and Portuguese Police) are now looking for a paedophile outside of that group (the McCanns’ and their friends) – but what if there was a paedophile within that group?  Now, someone might wish to argue I am calling him a paedophile, but I am not. Not at all.

The fact remains,  there was a very serious denunciation (two witness statements) to the police (English), which contained very serious accusations against someone (Payne); (a report) and that eventually reached Portugal “through half-open doors and crossways” (suggesting the English purposefully delayed them). I could explain it to you in all detail but …

(P):  We also have that story prepared …

(GA): I ask my self what is going on in here. I find it all rather enigmatic, particularly since those people (Drs. Katherina and Arul Gaspar) were not interviewed despite being listed in the “rogatory letter”.

Translators’ note: “rogatory letter”: a request by the Portuguese Justice Minister to the British Home Secretary for the Police to interview certain witnesses. The Portuguese authorities submitted their names (Gaspars) and tried to have them re-interviewed in England…

But that person (Dr. Katherina Gaspar) was not questioned because she was not present at the police headquarters when the questioning took place. Rather conveniently, she only arrived  (or was made to arrive) after the Portuguese police had already left the premises (…)

THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MADELEINE McCANN: A CRIME SCENE RECONSTRUCTION (Part Two) wrote:(P): So, these allegations  which were reported to the police in England,  were never taken into account in the investigation …

(GA): Hmm, this is very interesting. No (they were never taken into account) and I will explain (why) …

(P): (interrupts) This was never investigated !?

(GA): I am going to elaborate on it if I may, for  your benefit,  and for those who are watching the programme.

From  May (2007) onwards, we became aware of information (coming in) from our British colleagues about something (very odd) that had happened within that group during a holiday (in Mallorca). They  never told us specifically what . (We knew) it was something to do with Madeleine but, they (British colleaagues) never gave us any details.

Some time later – and by then I had already been removed from the investigation and reassigned to Faro (police headquarters) – and for no specific reason, except it  reminded me of the “we can’t tell you attitude”  (of our British partners);  a fax  (from the UK police) arrived in Portimão (PJ headquarters)  ostensibly about some other matter  – and this, by the way, is all (clearly stated) in the process; this is all clearly stated in the investigation process files –  and, attached to this fax, (which was conspicuously about some other subject) were  the statements of  Dr. Katherina Gaspar and her husband  – which had been made to the British Police (months before)!

(Oddly enough) these statements  (Gaspars’) were not  referred to in the main communication (either in the heading or the text of the fax).

(I could well take an educated guess and say) the Gaspars’ statements entered the process by the grace of a (British) colleague who was probably fed-up of hiding what he had been told to conceal …

And it is very strange not  to see anyone on behalf of the family – I mean the family of the missing child – showing any concern, any interest in these allegations ! And I don’t see anyone from Scotland Yard preoccupied in clarifying these, either!

Recently, they were talking about paedophile networks in Albufeira (Algarve) and I ask:  What if there was a paedophile in the very middle of this group?

I do not know if the Gaspars’ denunciation is relevant! I have no idea if the gentleman in question is a paedophile or not , but if we ask ourselves if his behaviour was odd, we have to admit it was very odd!

Now concerning the British senior social assistant (Yvonne Martin) what she said was, that the person she saw in Praia da Luz (when trying to assist the McCanns’) had already passed through her hands (been seen by her in some files) either as a witness or a suspect. She recognized him afterwards from a photo (shown to her by the police).

In spite of this, when  the British police was questioned by the PJ about David Payne, they replied (insisted) this gentleman had no records (on their files).

The fact is, this gentleman was the one who organized the group’s trip (to Praia da Luz); it was he who, for years, had been bathing the children, (including) the little girls of the other couples and – as is contained in the investigation files – had gone to the (McCanns’) apartment that afternoon, to see if Kate needed help with the children. Furthermore, it was he who that (very same) afternoon,  (helped to) gave bath to his own daughters, while his wife went for a jog on the beach (…)

(In summary), he is the one who, over the years, had the preoccupation about bathing the children of the other couples (…) I do not know if this is normal, if it is part of British culture or not, but I do not think it is.

The gestures he made in Mallorca were (potentially) very serious (leads) particularly since these gestures related to Madeleine!

The gestures – according to the report  of  Dr. Katherina Gaspar , who (by the way)  is herself a medical doctor so… if in this case we have to show respect to  the couple and their friends because they are doctors (least we are found guilty of lèse majesté), then we should remember (this witness) is a medical doctor as well – and her husband too!

The gestures (made by David Payne) were aimed  at Madeleine, and Dr. Katherina Gaspar was shocked when she witnessed them – it was not just the gestures, but the very question he (David Payne) poses to the father (Gerry McCann) right in his presence!

This evidence (the Gaspars denunciation ) has never been denied by anyone, anywhere – not least by any of those concerned. It is as if it never happened and then, (much later), it arrives in the process (unexpectedly) in the manner in which it did (…)

And these (statements), do not even arrive in time to be included in the rogatory letters  which were drafted around October-November (2007)!  Nor (for that matter) were they later included  into the amended round of rogatory letters the PJ tried to carried out in England.

In my opinion, the (Gaspars) are a couple that should have been heard in the investigation – particularly since this was something (a state of affairs) about which they promptly contacted the police in England – exactly when they see that person (David Payne)  on TV (just) ten days after the (fateful) event.

(repeats) When Dr. Katherina Gaspar sees him (David Payne) on the TV, she realizes who this person was – and she felt very strongly, that she simply  had to report him to the British police – but all this information was withheld from the Portuguese police (…)

(P): (addressing Francisco Moita Flores) Surely a suspicion (an allegation) of this type, with such characteristics and, moreover, witnessed by  members of their own profession  should have been investigated!

(FMF):  Of course they should! In fact (almost) everything that has resurfaced in this reconstruction is of such gravity, that I think  the only (rightful) thing for the PJ and the Public Prosecutor to do, would be to request this footage from CMTV – and while they are at it, examine the reconstruction done by the BBC  “Crimewatch” as well –  and, then, try to explain, how so many questions like these were left unanswered! Questions of such (gravity) critical importance! Questions that could involve paedophilia, sexual abuses …

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CATEGORY: MADELEINE MCCANN DISAPPEARANCE: CRIME SCENE RECONSTRUCTION June 8, 2014 DR. GONÇALO AMARAL ON SCOTLAND YARD’S “MEDIA STAGING” IN PRAIA DA LUZ Full version here: wrote:If the investigation that is now taking place is a serious one – and I am inclined to believe it could be because there are serious people involved in it – at least on the Portuguese side of the investigation… here we have quite number of people (genuinely) interested in solving this case…

But for that to happen, they must first take into account important elements they have put aside (or ignored). Particularly in what concerns that group of people (the McCanns and their friends).

No point in them talking about paedophiles, serial predators in the Algarve – from Vila Moura to Praia da Luz – I am hearing now of 18 cases! Cases which are not even filed with our police!

Furthermore, around that time, there was already considerable awareness in the police for these type of crimes. We had the Casa Pia case in Lisbon and the Joana case nearby, so to suggest our police suppressed all these and then to come out with all these stories, is mind-boggling.

Let us stop for a moment and think. Let us think objectively and see what in fact is there (…)

And what is there (in the process) is a report to the British police of an English couple (*) which says (words to that effect) a certain gentleman, two years (before the crime) expressed certain thoughts and made certain gestures towards the missing child highly suggestive of paedophilia (cannot think of a fancy word to put it otherwise)…

(*) Translators’ note: Dr. Gonçalo Amaral is, no doubt, referring here to the Gaspars’ report to the English police – a report that was withheld from the Portuguese investigators (…) The Gaspars’ were a couple of medical doctors who, two years prior to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, had spent a holiday in Majorca together with the McCanns’, David Payne and other friends.

(JF): Are you referring to David Payne – a friend of the McCanns’ family?

(GA): Yes, I am. And now, I hear that gentleman (Andy Redwood) talking about a thieve who broke into houses and then (believe it or not) lied next to children in bed. No doubt he considers such acts as paedophilia and the question I pose (to him) is this:

Aren’t those (David Payne’s) gestures and words reported by those two doctors to the English authorities about that holiday in Majorca, as stated in the process et etcetera (overstates) suggestive of paedophilia?

What happened to those statements? I ask. What are they looking for now?

Let us first investigate properly what is there in the process.

That so far, has not been done – certainly not in the rogatory letter (one and only) the PJ went to carry out in England. The Gaspars’ report has never been addressed.

(JF): It is then your conviction this gentleman, David Payne – of the McCanns’ inner circle of friends – or indeed the McCanns’ themselves, could have had have anything to do with what happened to the child?

(GA): Well, I have written a book about the case in which I expressed my own opinion and that of the Judiciary Police at the time.

(JF interrupts): ? At the time you wrote the book, right?

(GA continues). The book is based on a police report which, by the way, is in the process (case files).

Those are the conclusions we had arrived at; and the conclusions we arrived at did not suggest a kidnapping. (The evidence suggested) anything else but a kidnapping – possibly an accidental death followed by an occultation of the body.

However, it is important to underline, that although the investigation had reached an advanced stage, it was not closed – some details needed to be looked into.

A reconstruction and other diligences were needed. For instance, interviewing that couple of medical doctors who reported Dr. David Payne to the English police (…)

A number of elements needed to be addressed, including those they are now deliberately ignoring.

It is as if they are saying: “Let’s forget all that, let’s leave that behind and concentrate on something else instead! (said with irony) – which leaves me with the impression they are following some kind of agenda (obviously).

May 19, 2014 MADDIE: SEVEN YEARS ON – A CMTV SPECIAL (Second Half) wrote: P): What about Scotland Yard? Have they jumped on the (McCanns’) bandwagon too?

(GA) Look! While Scotland Yard does not disclose that mystery within The Mystery and investigates David Payne’s; the substance of that complaint (against him by two of his medical colleagues – the Gaspars’); a complaint highly suggestive of paedophilia, then (…)

I mean it is not someone, a burglar intent on stealing – as it has been assumed – who then lies next to (…) and (…)

We are talking here of someone, asking the father of the child, Mr. Gerald Mc Cann, both in words and accompanying obscene gestures, if Madeleine did certain things!

There are reputable witnesses for this! Witnesses who as early as the 12 of May (2007) reported what they saw to the English police! The very same police who then failed to report this to us – it was only much later, in October that year, that an odd fax reached us but (I digress) that story has already been told.

So, let us try to understand whom we are dealing with here!

Is it just the fear of having abandoning their children that led to their pact – having left their children alone throughout the week at their own account and risk? Is it just that or was there something else? That is what needs to be (probed into and) understood.

Ask yourself what kind of impact this could have on British Society? What kind of damage it could inflict? I have no idea, but surely, this is something that…

(P): (interrupts) But what motives would Scotland Yard have to condone, to side with the parents?

(GA): Let us try to find out why! Let Scotland Yard come forward and explain to us why they do not investigate this report (against David Payne) – for example.

Let they come out and deny such complaint ever existed or (if they prefer), let them come out, and confirm such report did exist and then, explain why they do not investigate it. May be this individual is above the law! I don’t know.

(P): And while they are at it, all the other anomalies too.

(GA): This person was the one who besides the language and gestures reported to the police, was in the habit of bathing the children of others – mostly toddlers (…)

Let me tell you just one more thing, I think is important in the midst of all this.

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December 26, 2013 THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MADELEINE McCANN: A CRIME SCENE RECONSTRUCTION (Part Two) wrote:(P): So, these allegations which were reported to the police in England, were never taken into account in the investigation …

(GA): Hmm, this is very interesting. No (they were never taken into account) and I will explain (why) …

(P): (interrupts) This was never investigated !?

(GA): I am going to elaborate on it if I may, for your benefit, and for those who are watching the programme.

From May (2007) onwards, we became aware of information (coming in) from our British colleagues about something (very odd) that had happened within that group during a holiday (in Mallorca). They never told us specifically what . (We knew) it was something to do with Madeleine but, they (British colleaagues) never gave us any details.

Some time later – and by then I had already been removed from the investigation and reassigned to Faro (police headquarters) – and for no specific reason, except it reminded me of the “we can’t tell you attitude” (of our British partners); a fax (from the UK police) arrived in Portimão (PJ headquarters) ostensibly about some other matter – and this, by the way, is all (clearly stated) in the process; this is all clearly stated in the investigation process files – and, attached to this fax, (which was conspicuously about some other subject) were the statements of Dr. Katherina Gaspar and her husband – which had been made to the British Police (months before)!

(Oddly enough) these statements (Gaspars’) were not referred to in the main communication (either in the heading or the text of the fax).

(I could well take an educated guess and say) the Gaspars’ statements entered the process by the grace of a (British) colleague who was probably fed-up of hiding what he had been told to conceal …

And it is very strange not to see anyone on behalf of the family – I mean the family of the missing child – showing any concern, any interest in these allegations ! And I don’t see anyone from Scotland Yard preoccupied in clarifying these, either!

Recently, they were talking about paedophile networks in Albufeira (Algarve) and I ask: What if there was a paedophile in the very middle of this group?

I do not know if the Gaspars’ denunciation is relevant! I have no idea if the gentleman in question is a paedophile or not , but if we ask ourselves if his behaviour was odd, we have to admit it was very odd!

Now concerning the British senior social assistant (Yvonne Martin) what she said was, that the person she saw in Praia da Luz (when trying to assist the McCanns’) had already passed through her hands (been seen by her in some files) either as a witness or a suspect. She recognized him afterwards from a photo (shown to her by the police).

In spite of this, when the British police was questioned by the PJ about David Payne, they replied (insisted) this gentleman had no records (on their files).

The fact is, this gentleman was the one who organized the group’s trip (to Praia da Luz); it was he who, for years, had been bathing the children, (including) the little girls of the other couples and – as is contained in the investigation files – had gone to the (McCanns’) apartment that afternoon, to see if Kate needed help with the children. Furthermore, it was he who that (very same) afternoon, (helped to) gave bath to his own daughters, while his wife went for a jog on the beach (…)

(In summary), he is the one who, over the years, had the preoccupation about bathing the children of the other couples (…) I do not know if this is normal, if it is part of British culture or not, but I do not think it is.

The gestures he made in Mallorca were (potentially) very serious (leads) particularly since these gestures related to Madeleine!

The gestures – according to the report of Dr. Katherina Gaspar , who (by the way) is herself a medical doctor so… if in this case we have to show respect to the couple and their friends because they are doctors (least we are found guilty of lèse majesté), then we should remember (this witness) is a medical doctor as well – and her husband too!

The gestures (made by David Payne) were aimed at Madeleine, and Dr. Katherina Gaspar was shocked when she witnessed them – it was not just the gestures, but the very question he (David Payne) poses to the father (Gerry McCann) right in his presence!

This evidence (the Gaspars denunciation ) has never been denied by anyone, anywhere – not least by any of those concerned. It is as if it never happened and then, (much later), it arrives in the process (unexpectedly) in the manner in which it did (…)

And these (statements), do not even arrive in time to be included in the rogatory letters which were drafted around October-November (2007)! Nor (for that matter) were they later included into the amended round of rogatory letters the PJ tried to carried out in England.

In my opinion, the (Gaspars) are a couple that should have been heard in the investigation – particularly since this was something (a state of affairs) about which they promptly contacted the police in England – exactly when they see that person (David Payne) on TV (just) ten days after the (fateful) event.

(repeats) When Dr. Katherina Gaspar sees him (David Payne) on the TV, she realizes who this person was – and she felt very strongly, that she simply had to report him to the British police – but all this information was withheld from the Portuguese police (…)

(P): (addressing Francisco Moita Flores) Surely a suspicion (an allegation) of this type, with such characteristics and, moreover, witnessed by members of their own profession should have been investigated!

(FMF): Of course they should! In fact (almost) everything that has resurfaced in this reconstruction is of such gravity, that I think the only (rightful) thing for the PJ and the Public Prosecutor to do, would be to request this footage from CMTV – and while they are at it, examine the reconstruction done by the BBC “Crimewatch” as well – and, then, try to explain, how so many questions like these were left unanswered! Questions of such (gravity) critical importance! Questions that could involve paedophilia, sexual abuses

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…

Phoebe wrote:(GA): I ask my self what is going on in here. I find it all rather enigmatic, particularly since those people (Drs. Katherina and Arul Gaspar) were not interviewed despite being listed in the “rogatory letter”.


"And these (statements), do not even arrive in time to be included in the rogatory letters  which were drafted around October-November (2007)!  Nor (for that matter) were they later included  into the amended round of rogatory letters the PJ tried to carried out in England"





I find the above seemingly contradictory statements confusing. Could anyone please clarify?

(GA): I ask my self what is going on in here. I find it all rather enigmatic, particularly since those people (Drs. Katherina and Arul Gaspar) were not interviewed despite being listed in the “rogatory letter”.

But that person (Dr. Katherina Gaspar) was not questioned because she was not present at the police headquarters when the questioning took place. Rather conveniently, she only arrived (or was made to arrive) after the Portuguese police had already left the premises (…)

Tony Bennett wrote:I am afraid that this thread reveals the extent to which Amaral was, and remains, bound by the PJ' s view (see upthread) that Madeleine died after 6pm on 3 May. The decision to believe Cat Baker re the high tea was a critical, if understandable, error. This error, in turn, as we can see from Amaral's interview upthread, led him into the further error of assuming they were leaving the children every evening and checking on them periodically. Whereas for 4 days they were probably planning the abduction hoax.