Re: Revisit of HiDeHo 2008 'Message to Matthew' and reasons behind it.

by **HiDeHo** 01.06.17 8:21

Phoebe wrote:There's no question that the McCanns stopped mixing during the day (and possibly at night) with the rest of their group if what they all tell us is true.They didn't join them for breakfast and lunch. The question is why? Was it because something had happened to Madeleine or because they had had a blazing row and were not speaking for a time? If so that could explain a lot, including taking the kids to creche separately, lack of family photos etc. We have all noted the dearth of photos of Madeleine but there is a dearth of photos of Kate and Gerry. I have not seen a single one of them as a couple or with the others in the group, even at night. I've been looking again at the list of those who say they saw Madeleine during the week and on Thurs 3rd as I wonder why Dr. Amaral still claims she was alive that day. They are, Maria Jose, the Tapas cook who was on duty for high tea who claims she saw her with the other kids at tea at 4.30pm, Jeronimo Salcedas who also says he saw her at high tea at 4.45, Georgina Jackson who claims to have seen her at the mini tennis lesson she taught on Tuesday, Cat.Baker, Charlotte Pennington, Emma Wilding. Susan Owen, Stacy Portz, Sarah Williamson, Kirsty Maryan and Jacqueline Williams who claim to have seen/interacted with her during that week and on the 3rd. There are no statements from the sailing instructors although I assume the police spoke to them. They too may have claimed to have seen Madeleine, we just don't know. The police have noted the anomalies in the creche files and must have investigated this but they do not seem to doubt that Madeleine was seen alive on Thursday. The starting point of any investigation is establishing when the victim was last seen. The problem is that if Madeleine died on Sunday/Monday all these people must be mistaken or deliberately lying and that is hard to get one's head around. I understand why the tapas 9 would lie but why would ALL the others? Sunday/ Monday death for me is too long a cover-up.

I've been looking again at the list of those who say they saw Madeleine during the week and on Thurs 3rd as I wonder why Dr. Amaral still claims she was alive that day.

I have included all the names you quoted as well as others.

The list does not mean she wasn't seen during the holiday but I challenge anyone to show me at least ONE (apart from Fatima) sighting that PROVES SHE WAS SEEN...

I have collated all the necessary info/statements to make it easy to decide.

They are,

Maria Jose, the Tapas cook who was on duty for high tea who claims she saw her with the other kids at tea at 4.30pm,

Maria M A Jose -

saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. -

Mistaken Identity
(child she refers to went to creche next to tapas, maybe Lilly?)

Upon questioning, she states that the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 (4.30pm? or 5.30pm?) on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week.

and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.

Jeronimo Salcedas who also says he saw her at high tea at 4.45,

Jeronimo Salcedes
- bartender,

saw MBM on the 3rd May near the restaurant. (note: question about this because although it appears in the 'snippets' post in the staff thread in the Files section, his actual statement saye he couldn't recall having seen them) -

Cannot remember seeing her

Jeronimo Salcedes - bartender, saw MBM on the 3rd May near the restaurant. (note: question about this because although it appears in the 'snippets' post in the staff thread in the Files section, his actual statement saye he couldn't recall having seen them)

-------- JERONIMO TOMAS RODRIGUES SALCEDAS (Phone No "91 768 ####) - bartender:
- He saw the missing Madelaine, for the last time, yesterday at 16.45h next to the restaurant;
- He did not notice if from the group of British citizens (in number 8 or 9) that yesterday dined in restaurant (which was partly made up of the parents of the missing [child]), someone left [absented themself] during such dinner;

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post26971.html#p26971

In spite of having already observed many photos of Madeleine he claims that he could not state with any certainty that he had seen her at any moment, the same goes for whom he now knows to be her twin siblings. The specifics of his work do not leave him with much time to focus his attention on the children that were around, although as he has stated previously he worked with children of Madeleine’s approximate age for almost four years.

Since Madeleine’s disappearance, I have seen her picture many times in the media, but I cannot honestly affirm that I remember seeing her in person before the disappearance from the Ocean Club. There were many children and I never paid much attention to any of them.

Georgina Jackson who claims to have seen her at the mini tennis lesson she taught on Tuesday,

Georgina Jackson -

gave MBM a tennis lesson with other children on Tue 1st May , 10-11am

Non Specific.

[She was 'in a group' - not specifically remembered or referred to]

She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.

Cat.Baker,

Catriona Baker -

last saw MBM before 6 pm on 3rd May, when collected by Kate -

Credibility?

Credibility of witness not confirmed (questionable creche records and invitation and trip to Rothley in November after which her Rogatory statement has many 'issues' imo)

Does NOT claim to have seen Madeleine at HighTea

Catriona EARLY Statement:

Catriona only states the twins were at high tea:

I also remember that Kate was present for High Tea accompanied by the twins between 5H and 5H30 in the afternoon.

ROGATORY statement Catriona does not specifically mention seeing Madeleine at high tea or specifically that they left at 5.30. Curiously she also says 'WENT' to get Madeleine as opposed to CAME)

'Kate went to get Madeleine from the Tapas Bar area and according to what I remember she was wearing sporting clothes and I assumed that she was practicing some form of athletics. It was around 15h25/18h00. I think that Gerry was playing tennis. '

Charlotte Pennington,

Charlotte Pennington -

told MBM stories and talked to her on 3rd May -

Questionable Credibity

However, she clarifies that it was normal during “siesta”-- understood to be between the hours of 09H00 and 10H30 and 14H30 and 15H00, at the exact time that children are brought into the crèche by their parents—when the children under her guard are asleep, that she would participate with the children and the activities in the MiniClub;
• Witness states that on two different days, Sunday, 29th of April 2007, and on Thursday, 03rd of May 2007, she had direct contact with Madeleine McCann, telling her stories and speaking with her.
• Witness states that as she was an intelligent child, timid at first contact, and who later felt more comfortable, was a child who conversed normally for her age, and was of a calm demeanour. She adds that it was usual for Madeleine to be called “Maddy”, as this is how she [Madeleine] presented herself to the witness;

NB - told MBM stories and talked to her on 3rd May - Credibility of witness not confirmed (Claims to have seen the twins in their cot and yet early statement says she did not enter apartment.)

She arrived April 28th (but claims to have worked from April 19th?) and on the first day of working with the babies, she leaves them asleep and reads to Maddie?

Emma Wilding.

Emma Wilding -
saw Gerry book MBM in to creche on the 3rd May and also saw her in the afternoon -

Does not know Madeleine well - Mistaken?
(thought Gerry picked her up from creche- was Kate)

As regards Madeleine, she did not spent much time with her because she was not in her group; she did not know her well, but Madeleine appeared to be somewhat shy, this was noticeable the first days. Since she met her, she noticed nothing abnormal in any aspect that would point to Madeleine being a child that was out of the ordinary.

She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine’s group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch. [Kate signed 12.25]

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, and does not remember having seen anybody specifically taking direct and close-up photographs of the children.

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary.

Susan Owen,

Susan Bernadette Owen

- Toddlers2 (3 groups) but another group to the twins
the deponent states that she did not have direct contact with the minor at issue, Madeleine McCann, and did not know her habits, and that of her parents,

Stacy Portz,

Stacey Portz
- She works as supervisor only in the "Toddler" and "Junior/Kids" services at the "Tapas" and "Millenium" locations.

Mistaken?

she would frequently come talk to her brother and sister when picked up by her parents;
NOTE: If this is in reference to lunchtime pickup (as opposed to high tea) then it could have only been Monday and Thursday that Madeleine was signed out before the twins. (not frequently) Shinead, who looked after the twins only saw Madeleine once!

Sarah Williamson,

Sarah Elizabeth Williamson - Toddlers 2 group.(3 groups) but another group to the twins
she did not have direct contact with Madeleine as she was responsible for the twins’ group during that week, and she has no knowledge of the girl’s or the parents’ habits

Kirsty Maryan and

Kirsty Louise Maryan- children between the ages of 6 and 10, known as the 'Junior' group,
she only, on one occasion, had contact with Madeleine McCann, for about 30 minutes 'who was treated as Maddie' in that she had to substitute for her colleague, who, at that time, was responsible for the group whose name is Emma, (? not Madeleine's group?) as she had to go to the Tapas to take care of the refreshments of Madeleine's group. For this, the deponent had the charge of accompanying that group towards the beach until the MiniClub where they stayed for a few minutes, and from where they left for the restaurant, mentioned above, in order to have dinner. She clarifies that when Madeleine ate her food, her parents were close and accompanied her;

from what she saw, was a child who did stick out, precisely as she was calmer and shier that the others;

she did not have direct contact with the minor at issue, Madeleine McCann, and is not aware of her habits or that of her parents,

Jacqueline Williams who claim to have seen/interacted with her during that week and on the 3rd.

Jacqueline Mary Williams

- “Toddlers 1”. - “dinner time period” together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy,
she had various contacts with the girl Madeleine McCann, but says these were formal contacts and very brief

says that in brief moments and in a formal manner (just saying “hello” and “goodbye”) she had contact with Madeleine, explaining that she did not belong to her group, these contacts took place when the children were eating

When the parents picked up the twins at lunch time, all the children were together in the same place so they picked up Madeleine as well. (Mistaken as Madeleine was in another location?)

NOT INCLUDED IN QUOTE:

Lynne Rhiannon Fretter - she worked with the baby group.
she only had one brief contact, a few seconds with Madeleine – whom they called Madie (sic), when she passed by her, having eaten at the table,

Shinead Maria Vine

-working only with the Toddler group;Amelie & Sean

she saw Madeleine McCann once when she arrived during the week

Elisa Dias Romao -

saw MBM every lunchtime, worked Tue, Wed & Thurs -

Confusing statement but claims this

-On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post11634.html#p11634

Regarding the group linked to the couple and the missing child and her two siblings, she only became aware afterwards that Madeleine’s siblings were twins. The witness remembers seeing them in the Garden Club, near the pool and the Tapas restaurant.

They appeared a normal family, as did the entire group. She did not notice any strange or suspicious details.

When questioned, the witness clarifies that she worked at the Garden Club reception on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, at a time covering the lunch hour. She remembers seeing the couple with their children as they had to pass the reception to leave the area. She next saw them head in the direction of the apartment where the witness believes they had lunch.

She believes that they left always between 12H30 and 13H00.

Around 14H00 the couple would return around 14H00, in fact, most of the couples would return their children to the crèche around this time. She does not know if the three McCann children were together given their different ages.

When questioned, the witness states that the parents would spend the majority of the time inside the Garden Club, in activities such as playing tennis, as they were a group of four couples (the reservation was always made for 9 adults). They would only all meet together for dinner.

The couple would only leave the Garden Club after the children’s tea, which was served by the nannies in that area around 17H00/18H00.

It was only after this period that they would leave with the children in the direction of their respective apartments.

Questioned, states that she was left with the notion that the four couples always took their children when they went out or that they (the children) never left the area without their parents.

Her normal working day was from 09.00 – 17.00 and therefore she was never present when the group was dining.

Her working day was normal that day and she did not see anything of interest to the investigation.

On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.

There are no statements from the sailing instructors although I assume the police spoke to them. They too may have claimed to have seen Madeleine, we just don't know.

Not in Files

Miguel Matias,

manager of the beach-side Paraíso restaurant -Mistaken

Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd but were only interviewed unofficially.

Other Witnesses

Bridget O'Donnell
Did not claim to see Madeleine (all pink and pretty was Sharks mini tennis)

Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
Jeremy Wilkins (1/3), On holiday in Praia da Luz, had conversation with G. McCann at ± 9.10 hrs., didn't see J. Tanner, p. 494
Jeremy Wilkins (2/3), On holiday in Praia da Luz, had conversation with G. McCann at ± 9.10 hrs., didn't see J. Tanner, p. 3407
Jeremy Wilkins (3/3), On holiday in Praia da Luz, had conversation with G. McCann at ± 9.10 hrs., didn't see J. Tanner, CR 5 p. 25

Stephen Carpenter
Stephen Carpenter, on holiday in Praia da Luz, rogatory interview 21.04.2008, CK 3 p. 31

I**** was in the group for children between three and four years old, her crèche worker was Emma and it was only after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann that I realised that she was in the same group as I****

SC: Hummm... I remember talking to Gerry, because I had to go and fetch I*** and they were playing in the small garden and he was (inaudible), I***** and I thought it was Maddie, I am not absolutely sure but, he seemed to me to be a decent type, a good father, affectionate with his children, very easy to talk to, very good with the children, with a comfortable manner even when talking to I**** about little things, completely dedicated to the children.
.

Mistaken

Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada

Profession: Cleaner

Saw Madeleine and family outside 5A heading for lunch at Paynes Sunday
CREDIBLE

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post184.html#p184
Date : 2007: 05: 08

Name: Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada

Profession: Cleaner
She had the opportunity to observe the photos of Madeleine that were being circulated everywhere and has no hesitation in confirming that she saw the child before her disappearance in the company of her siblings and mother and father, although in the latter case she only observed him from a distance.

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine’s family who were staying in 5 A.

Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo
PR Millenium

Saw Madeleine at breakfast

Mistaken identity?

- saw MBM at breakfast when she worked on Tue, Wed & thurs, but does not specify exactly when seen (Note: conflicting evidence on where breakfast was taken by the family, and when)

- Probably mistaken identity as McCanns did not go to breakfast during the week when she was working

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post137.html#p137
Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo

Date/Time: 2007/05/06 22H00

Occupation: Public Relations

Place of Work: Millenium restaurant, OC.

When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.

She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00.

She says that the McCanns appeared to be a normal family and that the relation between the members of the family was very good. Madeleine appeared to be very attached to her father and was always clinging on to him. Given her public relations function she was always very nice to the guests and would get involved with the children, saying that Madeleine was very shy and did not respond to her. She says that the only contact she had with guests was at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant, she did not have a view of the tables or the Buffet area.

by sar 01.06.17 9:43

+1000 HiDeHo, you are amazing, so grateful for all your hard work.

by Phoebe 01.06.17 10:18

@ HiDeHO. I get what you're saying and in fact my own instincts are that Madeleine was dead by Thurs morning and the change in routine of the Tapas 7 by taking themselves and their kids far from the McCanns via the beach afternoon was no coincidence. However, I'd be amazed if the P.J. had not looked very closely at this. The reason the nannies testimonies are questionable is because in several instances they contradict the creche file records re who collected/ dropped Madeleine. My gut instinct is that the creche was a shambles with very lax record-keeping, retrospectively amended to disguise what an unprofessional mess it was, nannies were not where they were officially meant to be and different groups were put together because of small numbers. The files have a section dedicated to anomalies in creche records, so the P.J had picked up on this. There are examples too of mistakes in the files re days/dates, (from memory it it recorded that one nanny began work for M.W. @ Ocean Club in '06 instead of '07. so perhaps times/days were confused. I find it hard to believe that the deception went on from Sunday/Monday. I would love to see the results of those conversations with the sailing instructors. If they told the P.J. that they had Madeleine with them that day for sure then that would change things. I've just come across the case of a 2yr old who allegedly went missing during a camping trip to a National Park in the U.S. It did not take the police long in this case to examine the possibility that he was never there. I just don't get why Dr. Amaral still seems to believe she was alive on Thursday.

by JRP 01.06.17 11:01

The McCann's distanced themselves from breakfast and lunches with the group after Sunday, and as HiDeHo has painstakingly worked out, there isn't a credible sighting after Sunday.
Nothing suddenly changed on Thursday to suggest a routine had changed, the pattern was set earlier in the week, so that they who should have been 5 were not seen as a 4 by anyone outside the main group.

The creche sheets are a complete red herring in my opinion, simply an aid to proving Madeleine attended each day up to and including Thursday.

by Phoebe 01.06.17 11:23

@ JRP "Nothing suddenly changed on Thursday to suggest a routine had changed, the pattern was set earlier in the week, so that they who should have been 5 were not seen as a 4 by anyone outside the main group."

On Thursday, for the first time, all of the children except those of the McCanns, were taken to the beach along with the rest of the group and missed high tea at the Tapas, eating instead at the Paraiso. On the preceding Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday they had all had high tea at the Tapas so this is a change from routine. The group only arrived on Saturday afternoon and the McCanns had only breakfasted once at the Milleneium and lunched once at Payne's (on Sunday) yet their not continuing to do so is regarded as a change of their routine. Therefore I would suggest not going for high tea on Thurs, having done so for the previous four days is also a change of routine.

by JRP 01.06.17 12:01

It's strange that a group go on holiday, presumably to be together as a group, yet one family decides after one day, to have breakfast in their apartment, lunch in their apartment, and arrive and leave through different doors.

Then on Thursday, they don't go to the beach with the rest of their friends. Why?

The only time they are together is to play tennis, or to be at evening meals, when the kids are safely in the creche, or tucked up in bed, and that routine didn't start on Thursday.

by Verdi 01.06.17 13:16

Though even the tales of the Tapas are shambolic. The group arriving at different times, randomly up and down from the table during meals for whatever reason - hardly conducive to a relaxed evening meal with friends, especially when they were so into each other !?! Nor is there any concrete evidence to confirm their daytime activities, just a load of contradictory accounts of who when where and why - or why not.

The irony is of course, the McCanns claim they knocked the Millennium on the head because of the distance, which would be troublesome with three very young children and no buggy. They didn't take the children to dinner with them, how therefore was it a problem? Kate McCann says in her chiclit that the Millennium was about half a mile away - what's half a mile between friends?

Aaah - I hear you say, they changed to the Tapas for ease of their self-styled child checking arrangement. Did they - was that really the reason? It can't be said they needed adult time away from the kids for a couple of hours - they had that for most of the day, apparently! Surely, even dining in the apartment with the kids would be less stressful than their version of the truth.

What a farce!

by nglfi 01.06.17 14:41

It's funny how the child-walking to the Millennium was a big deal for the McCanns, but not for the other parents in the t7 who had kids the same age. It's also surprising I think that they made the conscious decision not to take buggies with them, when they know how old the kids are and are apparently so unable to walk.
Kate likes to make a big deal in the book and in the statements of the others about how much further away their apartment was from everyone else, which is something else I've never understood because it's just false.

by **HiDeHo** 01.06.17 14:48

JRP wrote:It's strange that a group go on holiday, presumably to be together as a group, yet one family decides after one day, to have breakfast in their apartment, lunch in their apartment, and arrive and leave through different doors.

Then on Thursday, they don't go to the beach with the rest of their friends. Why?

The only time they are together is to play tennis, or to be at evening meals, when the kids are safely in the creche, or tucked up in bed, and that routine didn't start on Thursday.

Kate wasn't seen by the quiz mistress on Tuesday evening at the tapas, and Gerry and Russell arrived together (without Jane) on Wednesday evening and Jez Wilkins was told she was putting the children to bed...

WAS KATE AT THE TAPAS TUESDAY OR WEDNESDAY? (maybe even Monday)

If something had happened to Maddie was she watching her...or grieving?

This would suggest that the waiters etc claiming 9 people at the table were wrong.... BUT.. why were all T7 asked if the IRWIN sisters were at the table?

Were they mistaken for part of the the group?

I don't know HOW MANY of the T7 knew what was happening and therefore were complicit (I dont believe Dianne Webster knew initially) but WHY did so many of them have contradictory/discrepancies statements referring to the week starting Tuesday morning...

One major discrepancy that rarely gets discussed is WHY DID RACHAEL CLAIM THE LAST TIME SHE SAW MADDIE WAS AT MINI TENNIS? She claims it was Thursday but Madeleines group was Tuesday...

Does that mean the last time she saw her was Tuesday...or is she lying about seeing her on Thursday?

by polyenne 01.06.17 16:48

I think the trip to the beach on Thursday was because the weather had turned for the better.......nevertheless, a handy coincidence !

Was Kate carrying out the forensic clean and photographing the damp pyjamas over the evenings when she may not have been at the Tapas table ?

by **HiDeHo** 01.06.17 17:27

polyenne wrote:I think the trip to the beach on Thursday was because the weather had turned for the better.......nevertheless, a handy coincidence !

Was Kate carrying out the forensic clean and photographing the damp pyjamas over the evenings when she may not have been at the Tapas table ?

Personally, I see nothing to prove the mini sail was on Thursday. The diagram of events for Thursday morning is missing and also the twins creche register.

If the mini sail had happened I woud have thought that Alice Stanley and Chris Unwin would have given statements to say they saw Madeleine and there was no sign of anything suspicious happening.

If something happened to Maddie earlier in the week and she didnt die immediately then its likely she was being looked after by Kate followed by grief when she died (both scenarios would suggest why she was missing)

If Maddie died earlier in the week it could suggest why Kate was not ready to be seen in public because of her grief.

We are, however, told that Kate was at the Millenium for breakfast on Wednesday morning.... the morning the cleaner tells us the cot was in the parents bedroom (which they both denied) which was also the morning the 14 text messages started at 8am.

by Casey5 01.06.17 17:48

If the mini sail hadn't happened I would have thought that Alice Stanley and Chris Unwin would have given statements to say it hadn't taken place, surely?
Are these "missing statements" among the withheld statements that the PJ did not release?

by Phoebe 01.06.17 17:51

@ HideHo " I don't know HOW MANY of the T7 knew what was happening and therefore were complicit (I dont believe Dianne Webster knew initially) but WHY did so many of them have contradictory/discrepancies statements referring to the week starting Tuesday morning."

I think that could be so. Whyever would the McCanns avoid the others at lunch if they were all party to what was going on? And, if the others knew that Madeleine had died earlier in the week why would they highlight the fact that they didn't see the McCann kids at lunch? We would never know about this change to "routine" if they hadn't volunteered the information. From memory, I don't think the Paynes lunched with the rest every day either. I seem to recall they missed Thurs and it was just the Oldfields and Russell and Jane together that day. If the McCanns were trying to hide an earlier death surely the sensible thing to do would have been to go for breakfast a the Millenium and bring Lily with them. That would have ensured they were seen as a family of five with little chance of being rumbled.The problem for me is we only have the Tapas group's word about lunch arrangements and as I don't trust a word they say about anything that occurred that week I equally distrust the lunching story.

by JRP 01.06.17 22:54

Some very interesting points raised HiDeHo.

With regard to the mini tennis question, I believe Rachael wants us think she means Thursday, even if mini Tennis was two days earlier. There seems to be a theme of meddling with time. Muddying days or merging the events of one day with another.

It causes confusion. Even the simplest of events have multiple explanations. Booking the Tapas for instance, or who took the Tennis Balls photo are just two events that anyone would remember doing.
But we have, He booked it, no she booked it, I can't remember who booked it. I took it, she took it on Thursday, no I took it on Tuesday.

Therefore making sense of detailed events of that week are pretty much impossible, because they are muddled beyond belief.

With regard to which members of the group knew something had happened to Madeleine, and when did they know. I would think they all knew, and probably they all knew at the same time.
Perhaps Mrs Webster didn't get the full story, and knew less.
However, we are ten years on, they have a pact, and they stick to the abduction story, or they say nothing, is that being complicit?

by Verdi 02.06.17 1:11

JRP wrote:
Therefore making sense of detailed events of that week are pretty much impossible, because they are muddled beyond belief.

In a nutshell! The problem from square one to this very day..

One good thing to come out of all this...

Revisit of HiDeHo 2008 'Message to Matthew' and reasons behind it. - Page 2 Gerry

is that there is so much in the press, nobody knows what is true, and what isn't

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.nl/2010/07/100-reasons-why-madeleine-mccann-was.html

by Phoebe 02.06.17 14:12

I wonder where the Gorrods "Occasionally bumped into" Jane and Russell on that holiday? I haven't seen Jane or Russell ever give a statement re. this. I know Jane had a message/call which she identified as being from Charlotte Gorrod about a barbecue which was supposedly set for after the return to the U.K. but have found nothing else. Perhaps it's somewhere I missed. It can't have been at lunch or dinner and hardly at the Millenium as the Gorrods were not staying at Ocean Club? In the supermarket or at the beach?

by **HiDeHo** 02.06.17 17:45

Phoebe wrote:I wonder where the Gorrods "Occasionally bumped into" Jane and Russell on that holiday? I haven't seen Jane or Russell ever give a statement re. this. I know Jane had a message/call which she identified as being from Charlotte Gorrod about a barbecue which was supposedly set for after the return to the U.K. but have found nothing else. Perhaps it's somewhere I missed. It can't have been at lunch or dinner and hardly at the Millenium as the Gorrods were not staying at Ocean Club? In the supermarket or at the beach?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm

5 Processos Vol XV Pages 3992 ? 3995
Monday 30/4
Met a couple they know from Exeter, who were in the same resort (Praia da Luz or Ocean Club?) who had rented a car. Named as Jim and Charlotte Gorrod and 20 month old child.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Jane Tanner Rogatory
Reply    “Yeah this is the one I think it would be, this is erm, this is Charlotte, my friend in Exeter who was actually out in Portugal with us when we were there, but I think I rang her, she went home on the Saturday and she hadn’t taken her mobile out with her, cos I’d (inaudible) texted her, that day we were supposed to go, it was her husband’s birthday, I must have, I’ve still got the text on here that she, we were supposed to go to their apartment for a barbecue at lunch time, so I text her in the morning and said, (inaudible) text (inaudible), there you go, I text her in the morning and said that, so you see what time that is and but she didn’t answer so, cos she hadn’t got her mobile phone”.

4078    “No”.
Reply    “With her, so I rang her when she was home, that’s (inaudible) I want to talk to her then”.

4078    “But we’ve got that record that you texted her, I think you actually texted her the evening before as well”.
Reply    “That was to say do we need to erm bring, I think she was saying, come up for the afternoon, I think it was something along the lines of, do we need to bring food or something along those lines cos we were going for, for lunch”.

4078    “Yes”.
Reply    “Cos it was Jim’s birthday”.

by sar 02.06.17 17:56

Exeter again!!!!!

by Verdi 02.06.17 22:14

Phoebe wrote:I wonder where the Gorrods "Occasionally bumped into" Jane and Russell on that holiday? I haven't seen Jane or Russell ever give a statement re. this. I know Jane had a message/call which she identified as being from Charlotte Gorrod about a barbecue which was supposedly set for after the return to the U.K. but have found nothing else. Perhaps it's somewhere I missed. It can't have been at lunch or dinner and hardly at the Millenium as the Gorrods were not staying at Ocean Club? In the supermarket or at the beach?

Tannerwoman rogatory interview - April 2008

4078    “Okay and the last number then, is 07949 731844”?

Reply    “Yeah this is the one I think it would be, this is erm, this is Charlotte, my friend in Exeter who was actually out in Portugal with us when we were there, but I think I rang her, she went home on the Saturday and she hadn’t taken her mobile out with her, cos I’d (inaudible) texted her, that day we were supposed to go, it was her husband’s birthday, I must have, I’ve still got the text on here that she, we were supposed to go to their apartment for a barbecue at lunch time, so I text her in the morning and said, (inaudible) text (inaudible), there you go, I text her in the morning and said that, so you see what time that is and but she didn’t answer so, cos she hadn’t got her mobile phone”.

4078    “No”.

Reply    “With her, so I rang her when she was home, that’s (inaudible) I want to talk to her then”.

4078    “But we’ve got that record that you texted her, I think you actually texted her the evening before as well”.

Reply    “That was to say do we need to erm bring, I think she was saying, come up for the afternoon, I think it was something along the lines of, do we need to bring food or something along those lines cos we were going for, for lunch”.

4078    “Yes”.

Reply    “Cos it was Jim’s birthday”.

4078    “Okay. That’s the end of the telephone questions

?
ETA: Sorry HiDeHo, didn't see your post blushing1

.

by Phoebe 02.06.17 22:23

@ HiDeHo. and Verdi. Thanks. smilie

Wading through Jane's ramblings I presume they were supposed to go to the Gorrod's apartment for a barbecue lunch on the 3rd and Jane allegedly rang on the previous evening, to ask what she should bring. Obviously a couple of bottles of wine was beyond her ken. Hmmm. So the Gorrods were "out in Portugal WITH us". The descriptions of the socially incestuous week of the Tapas 9 wouldn't suggest that. If they hadn't met up how did the Gorrods know the O'Brien clan was in Luz at all? If this fact had been known to the Gorrods before leaving home they must have felt a bit miffed to have been ignored all week as they obviously crave the company of Russell and Jane.

by sallypelt 02.06.17 22:28

Charlotte Gorrod is the wife of James Gorrod? James Gorrod, in 2007, was working for Foot Anstey Solicitors, and this is how Foot Anstey advertises itself:

Need a firm of Plymouth solicitors? Foot Anstey Solicitors are the experts. Do you need a solicitor in Plymouth to provide assistance with an individual legal problem? Foot Anstey Solicitors can offer a complete range of legal services to make your life far simpler.
Foot Anstey Solicitors is a trusted legal practice of Plymouth solicitors who focus on providing effective help on a wide range of legal subjects.
As one of the best regarded solicitors in Plymouth, Foot Anstey Solicitors will provide you with the most effective advice you need to guarantee that you make the right decisions for your situation.
If you would like an established legal firm of Plymouth solicitors to help you, simply call the solicitors at Foot Anstey Solicitors and they will be only too happy to help you.

One good thing to come out of all this...

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