Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

by pennylane 02.06.16 23:01

plebgate wrote:Do you know if the soothing couples incident was in the police files pennylane? I can't remember but I do recall it was coverered by (I think) the Daily Express. It seems a strange story to me.

It is the strangest story isn't it? I remember hearing of it long ago, and nobody knew if it was forum myth as we couldn't find confirmation of it. Then it suddenly came to life again via UK media and supposedly Op Grange, but described as happening on 2nd May, which (imo) gives it a distinct Clarence Mitchell feel. Operation Grange were allegedly trying to locate the couple. roll

by plebgate 02.06.16 23:08

yes I think you are right Pennylane.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 0:01

worriedmum wrote:Regarding point number 6,

i) The McCanns were on the end of the row
ii) Mrs Fenn was directly above
iii) Some of the surrounding (holiday let) apartments were not in use
iv) The Tapas friends' apartments were in the surrounding area and were allegedly occupied only by other children
v) Anyone passing by would only hear crying for a minute at most, so would have had no idea how long it had been going on for.

REPLY: I acknowledge the validity of your five points. However, it is striking that no-one else heard this alleged continuous crying which lasted
75 minutes. Not one soul in all this time? Over 75 minutes.

Mrs Fenn was agitated enough to ring her friend.

REPLY: Sorry, @ worriedmum, we simply cannot say that. If we consider ourselves researchers, analysts and investigators, which have been indeed been the main activities of hundreds of members on here for well over six years, we must st6ick to the facts and put it like this:

"Mrs Fenn says she contacted Mrs Glyn".

You also said she was 'agitated'. That is going even beyond what she said herself about this alleged event.

To me this suggests that she was not the type of person who would go downstairs and knock on the door. It proves that she was concerned but did not feel willing or able to cross the taboo of interfering in another family's affairs. If she had heard crying that sounded like the child was being physically hurt, I am fairly sure she would have gone down. But the crying is described as continuous. For all she knew the parents were present and ignoring it; sometimes it is a battle of wills to get a child to stay in bed, for instance.

REPLY: All that is speculation, without evidence. Mrs Fenn says she 'phoned Mrs Glyn at 11.00pm, yet heard the child crying, she says, for a further 45 minutes. Neither she nor Mrs Glyn lifted a finger on behalf of that (allegedly) crying child. Moreover, Mrs Fenn says nothing about the conversation with Mrs Glyn other than her cryptic reported comment that she was 'not surprised'. Mrs Fenn does not even mention whether they discussed 'phoning anyone. Both had presumably lived in Praia da Luz for donkey's years . They would know how to contact people like the police, the child welfare department and the Ocean Club. Why did they not make any call?

For me the most important aspect of this crying incident as reported by Mrs Fenn, is that she only heard ONE child crying. Why , after 75 minutes, was there only one child crying?

REPLY: Thank you for bringing this point up. I did mention it in one of my earlier articles on Mrs Fenn. Yes, is it conceivable that Madeleine could be crying for 75 minutes, presumably up and about and out of bed, and the twins sleep right through that - for the whole 75 minutes? It is just one more point among so many that undermines the entire credibility of Mrs Fenn's very-late-in-the-day statement.

POSTSCRIPT: This is Kate McCann's account of Tuesday evening/night, p. 59 of her book, 'madeleine', QUOTE:

"The second [minor aspect of Tuesday evening which stands out as differing from the norm] was that some time in the early hours, Madeleine came through to our bedroom, complaining that Amelie was crying and had woken her up. Gerry checked on Amelie, who settled quickly, and we let Madeleine jump into bed with us".

Strange that the Amelie crying incident was first raised by the McCanns in that Irish RTE TV late show, so long after the event

by worriedmum 03.06.16 0:30

Tony, you say that we must stick to facts , but I have no evidence that Mrs Fenn was not telling the truth. Do you?

I am not prepared to discredit Mrs Fenn. I think it is entirely possible that she did not want to get involved. Continuous crying is upsetting but I would suggest sounds very different to a child who is being hurt at intervals, for instance.

With regards to only one child crying, you have only suggested one explanation. There are others.

by Verdi 03.06.16 0:33

Pamela Fenn said the crying went on for 75 minutes getting louder and louder and didn't stop until the parents returned, she heard the patio door open but didn't see the parents.

Russell O'Brien - Rogatory Interview April 2008

I know that on one of the evenings either Monday or Tuesday I stayed in the flat with Evie as she wasn’t well Jane brought my meals over to me this was mentioned in my first statement. I feel that this is more likely to have been Monday as I feel that we were all together as a group on Tuesday- nine adults. I believe that this was when the Trivia quiz had taken place.

Reply    “Dave and Fi as well, yeah. And then the next bit is fair enough, which is fair enough there that ‘After Madeleine disappeared we began eating’ maybe just ‘lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment regularly’. Erm, at the end, the next paragraph is fair, you know, it’s fair enough I think, I think that’s fine. An addition at the end maybe just saying, you know, regarding the Monday and Tuesday, I think it was Monday night because, erm, I have this recollection that on Tuesday it was the first night we’d all been together, the nine of us, actually, you know, present”.

1578    “Yes”.

Reply    “However Jane actually thinks that it was, erm, Tuesday, it was probably Tuesday night, so we’re, we’re not entirely sure. I don’t know if that’s going to be very relevant, but I thought it was Monday and Jane thinks it might have been Tuesday”.

1578    “You say ‘Either Monday or Tuesday’?”

Reply    “Yeah, so as long as, well”.

1578    “You could cross-out ‘either’ and put in ‘possibly’. ‘Possibly Monday’ and cross-out ‘or Tuesday’?”

Reply    “Erm, I don’t know, maybe I’m just being fussy. I mean, it was either Monday or Tuesday, me and Jane can’t quite agree on that one, we thought, erm. Just leave it as it is”.

1578    “If we leave it as it is. We do say ‘Either Monday or Tuesday’, don’t we?”

Jane Tanner's Rogatory Interview - April 2008

Reply    “Err actually go back to the Tues, there was one night, I don’t know whether it was Tuesday or Wednesday I mean there was one night when Russell didn’t come to dinner and I think it was the Wednesday but it could have been the Tuesday because Evie was sick. She was, that was the first time she was err actually sick, she used to have, the milk was like UHT milk and sometimes when she had that she’d just go, you know, and then she’d been fine again, fine again afterwards. So I think it was either the Tuesday or the Wednesday but I can’t remember which one.”

4078    “Okay.”

Reply    “So that night is the night that Russell didn’t actually come to the restaurant so coming back to what you were saying about is there anything that would highlight to people what there is, I actually carried his meals back to the room on that night and I say I don’t know whether it’s the Tuesday or the Wednesday err because he was staying with Evie because at that point we thought oh we don’t want to leave her in case she is sick again err and I think it was two nights before the Thursday so I’d say it would be Tuesday, which is why I think it was the quiz night because Russell wasn’t there when it was the quiz night.”
----------

Juggling the three days, Monday Tuesday Wednesday, Russell thinks it was Tuesday but says Jane thinks it was Monday - Jane thinks it was Tuesday but maybe it was Wednesday. It seems most likely that Russell O'Brien stayed with his sick daughter in their apartment and Jane Tanner took his meal to him on Tuesday 1st May..

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident. - Page 12 111

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident. - Page 12 111

If hysterical crying was heard by Pamela Fenn on Tuesday 1st May coming from the apartment below, don't you think Russell O'Brien would have heard something also? A quiet night in sleepy off-season Praia da Luz?

Excellent point made by pennylane above - why only one child. One thing for sure, if the twins had been in apartment 5a as well, they would have been screaming the place down.

by plebgate 03.06.16 1:01

What mother/father wouldn't know the exact night their daughter was ill especially as it was only one or two nights before the abductor struck?

Obrien said they couldn't quite agree what night their daughter was ill so thought well just leave it as it is. So if it was the Tuesday he most definitely would have heard the crying but who knows what day it was for sure?

by MayMuse 03.06.16 1:12

Pamela Fenn said the crying went on for 75 minutes getting louder and louder and didn't stop until the parents returned, she heard the patio door open but didn't see the parents.

No one knows for sure if the patio door was opened to return to the apartment or to leave... This was not visually witnessed so it could be either.
Children rarely if ever just stop crying, they become tired and can sob themselves to sleep or get quieter as in a whimper and the crying usually then just intermittently becomes more subdued.
Often wondered if it was Kate crying, and no child/ren were in that apartment that evening???

by plebgate 03.06.16 1:19

I have asked this question before - if Tanner's daughter was so ill one night, did it stop them from sending her to creche the next day?

by whodunit 03.06.16 2:12

"It's all rubbish". "I didn't even know that family was in there".

How are we supposed to interpret these statements by Mrs. Fenn? She has to be referring to media coverage claiming she heard crying.
Why then did she go ahead and make a statement to the police?

by whodunit 03.06.16 2:45

plebgate wrote:What mother/father wouldn't know the exact night their daughter was ill especially as it was only one or two nights before the abductor struck?

Obrien said they couldn't quite agree what night their daughter was ill so thought well just leave it as it is. So if it was the Tuesday he most definitely would have heard the crying but who knows what day it was for sure?

Their grasp of the 'facts' is very flexible. This way, if the child needed to be sick on Tuesday to provide an alibi, then Tuesday it is. If on the other hand it turns out WEDNESDAY is the troublesome time period then it can be Wednesday!

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 8:46

worriedmum wrote:Tony, you say that we must stick to facts , but I have no evidence that Mrs Fenn was not telling the truth. Do you?

@ worriedmum

It is obvious from your reply that you have not looked at the evidence I have produced here on CMOMM...

a) that the 'crying incident' was fabricated

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11939-10-reasons-which-suggest-that-pamela-fenn-did-not-hear-any-child-crying-on-tuesday-1-may-2007

and (b) that the alleged 'burglary incident' was fabricated

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11905-was-there-an-attempted-burglary-of-mrs-pamela-fenns-flat-in-the-weeks-before-madeleine-was-reported-missing

In addition, the subject of Mrs Fenn's evidence was comprehensively covered by Richard D Hall in his latest Madeleine McCann documentary, a summary of which CMOMM member here, 'Knitted', has put up on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx_LmjO6-4A&feature=youtu.be

----------

I hear what you say: "I am not prepared to discredit Mrs Fenn".

I would prefer to hear you say: "I will look at all the evidence about Mrs Fenn's statements with an open mind".

by skyrocket 03.06.16 9:49

@plebgate - yes, regarding sending children to the creche when they are/have been ill, MarkWarner specifically stated in their conditions in 2007 that any child who has been ill must not attend creche and must have 2 full symptom free days before they return! On that basis we have Evie, Ella and Grace, who shouldn't have attended for some of the week, specifically for this reason. Nowhere is this mentioned. Rachael actually states quite graphically that poor little Grace had loose nappies most of the week.

@whodunit - re: the second quote you give for Mrs Fenn i.e. 'I didn't even know that family was in there.', where can I find this? It fits in with my thoughts on 5A being occupied by the Payne's with the Mc's actually being in 5H. Thanks

by pennylane 03.06.16 9:55

whodunit wrote:"It's all rubbish". "I didn't even know that family was in there".

How are we supposed to interpret these statements by Mrs. Fenn? She has to be referring to media coverage claiming she heard crying.
Why then did she go ahead and make a statement to the police?

Mrs Fenn is saying the press reports are "all rubbish" as she's "never even spoken to a journalist." She isn't saying what she told the police is all rubbish!! From memory also, I believe she was asked about often hearing the McCanns yelling and screaming at each other, which she said was "rubbish." Her words have constantly been taken out of context (imo). So easy to ask a question then report her answer in quotes, and alter the meaning completely.

I feel very sorry for the late Mrs Fenn actually, because her last months on earth should have been calm and peaceful, and thanks to the McCanns rank parenting seem to be full of stress.

by plebgate 03.06.16 10:00

Thanks skyrocket.

If she had missed creche that could have indicated which night she was ill.

So much confusion and contradictions.

if anyone made an insurance claim based on so much confusion and contradictions they deffo would not pay out.

I am still amazed that all this is on file, has been sent to the re-investigation officers and yet as far as we know none of them have been re-interviewed.

Robert Murat headline Daily Express two years ago - bring them all back to Portugal. I still wonder why that headline came out of the blue?

by skyrocket 03.06.16 10:12

@whodunit - sorry, shouldn't have been so lazy! I've looked it up now and it is credited to the Daily Mail! on 13 Sep 2007. The article states that Pamela Fenn made the comment the day before. I'm tending towards her actually saying it because it would seem an odd point for the DM to just throw in there. Pity it wasn't on the film clip.

by joyce1938 03.06.16 10:29

Do I recall correctly wasn't some phone calls made to the mother ,at the time maddi?/y was said to be crying ? and she was at the apartment at that point? So who was inside that night ,and is it possably true ,someone left and doors were heard sliding by mrs Fenn.? joyce1938

by Doug D 03.06.16 10:46

From the Daily Mail:

‘Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.

But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz2TieXyVyf

@ 1.10 on this clip you get the ‘absolute rubbish’ bit, but nothing about ‘I didn't even know that family was in there’.

The clip seems to show pretty much the whole episode with Mrs Fenn, from when she is ambushed getting out of her car and the sentence doesn’t really fit before what we can see, isn’t said during it, and she seems to pretty much dismiss the press and close the ‘interview’ at the end, with the earlier footage @ 0.17 showing her getting her shopping out of the car afterwards and being escorted to her flat.
In my opinion, it’s probably an ‘after the event scribbled down recollection of what she said’ by The Mail reporter (who may not even have been there at the time, so possibly third hand) and she never actually said it at all.

..............................

@joyce1938

Are you thinking of the newspaper reports that a member of the OC staff were sent out to find the Mc's to bring them back in view of reports of distressed children in their flat?

eta There must be a 'Chaplins' thread on here somewhere, but I've tried searching and can't find it at the moment.

by pennylane 03.06.16 11:01

UK media report "absolute rubbish," just as poor Mrs Fenn said after being ambushed by a ghastly journalist as she took in her groceries. Her words have constantly been taken out of context, and embellished. Sleazy Mitchell was at the helm of those stories (imo).

by joyce1938 03.06.16 11:09

No ,I was speaking about the telephone messages that phone ,and I believe it was said at that Mrs was most likely in that destination.When the calls were received. So when mrs Fenn spoke of the sliding doors and someone coming back to the kids. or was it someone leaving ? The crying stopped too? joyce1938

by joyce1938 03.06.16 11:17

I wonder if we might be able to know the numbers that were trace by some clever man few years ago possably was on MCF. It is too much for me to do a good job on subject, but it did show where and when these calls were made . does anyone recall this subject being talked about? joyce1938

by plebgate 03.06.16 11:27

joyce1938 wrote:I wonder if we might be able to know the numbers that were trace by some clever man few years ago possably was on MCF. It is too much for me to do a good job on subject, but it did show where and when these calls were made . does anyone recall this subject being talked about? joyce1938

I remember (I think it was Paulo Reis) posting on 3As a long time ago that there were pings from Mrs.' mobile phone in the vicinity of the apartment but the pings could not place her as actually being in the apartment.

ETA somebody also posted that it could have been someone else using the phone.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.06.16 11:32

joyce1938 wrote:No, I was speaking about the telephone messages [on] that phone, and I believe it was said at that [time] Mrs was most likely in that destination [G5A].

What I think you are referring to is a series of 6 calls in a row made (IIRC) by Kate McCann at around 10.30pm (I think 10.15pm to 10.30pm) on Tuesday 1 May.

AFAIK we can't be sure of the destinations of those calls, but I am open to correction.

Paulo Reis had a long article - very interesting - on the subject of those calls and related matters. He claimed IIRC to have evidence from the mobile 'phone antennae that the calls were actually made by Kate from the McCanns' apartment, G5A. I have to say I was sceptical about that part of his article, as I was very unsure that any mobile could be pinpointed so accurately by whatever technology he had available at that time.

Since it's my case that the so-called 'crying incident' never happened, I don't think that the 'phone calls are relevant to that issue.

But they might well be relevant to the case as a whole.

I haven't got the link to Paulo Reis's article to hand, but IIRC it was on the website with the French title?

by joyce1938 03.06.16 11:33

Thanks plebgate, that's what I meant. joyce1938

by skyrocket 03.06.16 12:03

@DougD - I agree, there is no evidence that Pamela Fenn made the comment, 'I didn't even know that family was in there.'

Over-analysis is an easy pit to fall into. Odd sentence though!

by Verdi 03.06.16 13:33

plebgate wrote:I have asked this question before - if Tanner's daughter was so ill one night, did it stop them from sending her to creche the next day?

It's a bit of a toss up with this mob - they didn't appear to know for sure what they were doing from one moment to the next..

Jane Tanner's Rogatory Interview - April 2008

4078    “What do you remember about the Tuesday, if anything at this stage?”

Reply    “Err I, nothing specific, I would have had the tennis lesson.”

4078    “E**a would have had her second morning at the…”

Reply    “Yeah I think E**a definitely went then. I can’t remember, by this stage E**e had got a bit of the squits, probably to the better phrase, so I think she was still going, I can’t, there was a couple of mornings that she didn’t go to the kids club because I didn’t think it was fair because she’d got a bit of a runny, runny nappy so to speak so, but I think, I can’t remember whether it was that morning or the next morning but I think, I think she did go, I think she did go that day.”

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.