Observations on the 'Crying Incident' thread so far

by **Tony Bennett** 01.06.16 23:54

Since coming back off holiday I have read all 250 posts on this thread and have some observations.

First of all, it deals with major issues in the case and secondly it has attracted a good many contributors with some excellent points, not always strictly on-topic, but then, as they say, one issue leads to another.

The thread title refers, rightly, to the alleged crying incident.

For those members and guests unaware of my views on this issue, I have set them out in various places, notably here:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11939-10-reasons-which-suggest-that-pamela-fenn-did-not-hear-any-child-crying-on-tuesday-1-may-2007

See also this 15-minute excerpt from Richard Hall’s latest film, put together by a CMOMM member:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx_LmjO6-4A&feature=youtu.be

My main reasons for doubting the ‘crying incident’ can be summarised thus:

1. Mrs Fenn didn’t make her statement for 3½ months

2. It was made only after Clarence Mitchell had trailed days in advance what she was going to say in her statement

3. There are a number of indications within her statement that it is untrue, and

4. Her claims about being burgled are highly contradictory and also suggest fabrication.

It is only fair to add that, so far, my views on Mrs Fenn’s statement are not shared by the majority of the 158 members who have voted in the accompanying poll; 65% tend to think that Mrs Fenn’s statement is the honest truth, while 35% think otherwise or are not sure.

Against that background, here are my observations on some of the main comments on the thread:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tania Cadogan: “Was the 'crying incident' created to explain away the crying heard by Mrs Fenn (if what she said she heard was true). Was it said to set the scene for the alleged abduction? Was it said to indicate Maddie was alive the night before the alleged abduction, especially if she was not seen by independent witnesses during the Thursday or there was no definite, verified reliable sighting of her such as at the creche etc.? The alleged sighting by Payne can be discounted as he is not independent”.

REPLY: There are certainly reasons to doubt Mrs Fenn’s testimony. At the very least, we cannot treat it as a proven fact. And if we do treat it as a proven fact, and it did not happen, it will distort our entire understanding of the case.

Equity: “I have thought for a long time that it was possible all the children were being babysat by the absent parent, more than likely in one apartment (not 5A). This would be the obvious solution in such a large group of adults with many young children. I think it was the reason they specifically asked Warner Holidays to accommodate all the families in the same block”.

REPLY: Welcome here, by the way. I agree there is evidence that all the children were looked after in one room, but I think that may have started on the Sunday night – maybe after something serious happened - and was not part of the original plan. If they were all looked after in one room, it is likely to have been the Paynes’ apartment. There is evidence that one adult was away from dinner every night Sunday to Wednesday and I suggest that the Paynes’ monitor could have been used for messages to and from the adult caring for the children and those at the dining table.

Sandancer: I've wondered before if all the children were together in the Payne's apartment ? Was that not the biggest one ? Plus they had the monitor for easy communication?

REPLY: Agreed. See above.

HideHo: “First...WHY did they claim it was the TWINS that were crying in their May 4th statement and then on May 10th it was Maddie and Sean? What reason would there be for them to change that? Second... IF Kate told Jane and Fiona, as they claim, then surely she would have told them what they told the police the following morning, it was TWINS that were crying, but Fiona and Jane BOTH claimed it was Maddie and Sean...leaving me to 'presume' they weren’t told until AFTER it was changed (in other words...no mention of it Thursday night and possibly 'made up' as I have always believed anyway...”

REPLY: Yes, and we have at least three versions of the ‘crying incident’: (1) The twins crying Weds/Thurs night, (2) Maddie and Seam crying Weds/Thurs night, and (3) Amelie crying Tues/Weds night.

NickE:   “Because they realised that they had to prove that Maddie was still around during the week, just like the ‘Last Photo’ that was flown in from the U.K. a few weeks later”.

REPLY: A plausible scenario.

mysticmeg: “With regard to why they ‘needed to complicate matters by insisting Payne saw Madeleine at 7 pm if he didn't’, I seem to remember that there was a lot in the press at the time about the hours unaccounted for between the last photo and their going to dinner - then suddenly up popped Payne's visit. I don't think the high tea had been mentioned at that time as it was right at the beginning of the reporting...and was so obviously back-fitting that it added weight to their guilt...even before he started speaking about it!

REPLY: Rather lurid reports appeared in several newspapers in Portugal and Britain in September 2007 (after the McCanns had been made arguidos) about the ‘missing six hours’. You are quite right, it was about this time that we had a flurry of stories about the alleged 6.30pm-7pm visit by Payne to the McCanns’ apartment, and all sorts of tennis lessons and matches played by Gerry McCann practically all afternoon and after 7pm when allegedly he played a ‘social tennis’ match with the other three Tapas 7 males.

Skyrocket:   “On the subject of the crying incident, the McCanns couldn't get this out quick enough in their 4 May statements”.

REPLY: I think this is a very important point. When you think of the mass of relevant things left out of their short initial statements, it seems bizarre that they should bring up the claims of the children crying, especially as they had to admit that they’d never heard any such crying.

Skyrocket:   “I was going to post yesterday but I was in two minds as I don't believe that MBM was at high tea on 3 May”.

REPLY: I agree that there are major doubts about the entire ‘high tea’ incident, as HideHo has more than adequately shown on her website and on CMOMM.

MayMuse: “Wasn't there a suggestion by GM of two crying incidents? I seem to recall on a talk show/ interview a mention of ‘Amelie’ crting one evening? I will have to recheck, it may have been the Irish RTE late one? If any crying incidents happened at all? What if there was none? It was all quiet?
Where does that leave this ‘saga’?

REPLY: Yes, the alleged incident with Amelie crying on the Tues/Weds night was brought up by the McCanns on the Irish late show. What is very interesting about that is that it seems to have been brought up because of Mrs Fenn’s staement. Yet according to a very bizarre claim by Mrs Fenn, the crying could not have been Amelie because she was adamant that the crying was from a child ‘older than two years old’. How on earth Mrs Fenn can claim to distinguish between the cries of a two-year-old and a three-year old is quite beyond me. It is one of so many reasons that I fundamentally distrust her statement.

Maria: “Then where would that leave Mrs. Fenn, didn't she hear a child cry for almost 2 hours?”

REPLY: See above. IMO she heard no such thing.

Maria: “What if it was the hotel owners who organised the massive cover up, they would have to coach staff on what to say and ship them off with some pocket money…”

REPLY: A very valid point. We know, thanks to NickE bringing it here, that the subsidiary company of Bell Pottinger, namely Resonate, was sent out in the days before the alarm about Madeleine was raised. We also know that the top two staff of Resonate stayed on and were laising with the British Ambassador and Portuguese police forces. Bell Pottinger represented Mark Warner and sent its top two men to Praia da Luz, one of whom, Alex Woolfall, was involved in selecting, editing and cropping photos on a camera card onto a disk and thus denying the Portuguese Police the opportunity to view the original photographs. A crucial witness, Cat Baker, was one of their staff. If there was a cover-up as some allege, it looks very much as though Mark Warner and its lawyers and PR staff were very much part of it.

MaryB:   “Mrs Fenn did hear crying. Ages ago I read a theory which seemed quite plausible. Mrs Fenn thought she heard Madeleine shouting Daddy but what she might have heard was one of the twins shouting Maddie over and over again”.

REPLY: A number of people have thought this happened and at one time I was one of them. I am now however completely persuaded that the ‘Fenn crying incident’ never happened.

Columbo: “I accept there's a key weakness in my own favoured theory of a major event on 3 May, which is the very narrow window to plan and execute anything”.

REPLY: This was a very fair and correct admission to make, except that those who claim that Madeleine died and was disposed of - and the abduction plan executed - all within a bare two hours or so before they all sat down calmly to dinner at 8.30 to 08.45pm, are IMO asking us to believe the impossible.

whodunit: “The only alternative to a May 3rd incident - impossible imo, or mistaken identity - unlikely given Baker signing various children in and out - is a substitute child”.

REPLY: I do not think a ‘substitute child’ scenario is necessary if Cat Baker was deliberately lying about her being with Madeleine that week.

Verdi, HideHo, pennylane and Realist:

REPLY: They made many posts relating to the evidence of Cat Baker. I think Verdi and HideHo are on the right lines though of the two I think Verdi’s understanding of Cat Baker is the closer to the truth. Pennylane and Realist both support the ‘death after 6pm on 3 May’ theory and therefore also consider that Cat Baker is a reliable, honest witness who told nothing but the truth about the high tea and the rest of the week. Pennylane is sincere in her views and while I disagree with her on these particular points I respect her views. As for ‘Realist’, after defending the ‘death after 6pm on 3 May’ theory in more than a dozen posts on this thread, he eventually admitted that that theory was completely unsupportable. But as had become obvious to some, Realist was basically here using his/her valuable time and ours to do everything possible to get us off track; good riddance that the Mods got rid of him/her in my absence. I did note however that in another place, a number of people were praising ‘Realist’s ‘brilliant’ posts. That says a whole lot more about their agenda than it does about Realist.

by Verdi 02.06.16 0:03

@Tony Bennett: Since coming back off holiday I have read all 250 posts on this thread and have some observations.

Hope you had a splendid holiday! Back to the grind big grin

.

by Maria 02.06.16 0:21

I'm going to have to read up on Mrs Fenn again, I didn't know there was doubt. I always believed her and thought the McCanns invented their own story to cover for what they knew she heard.

Thank the Lord Realist is gone, I think he was trying to get someone to say the parents murdered Madeleine, on quite a few occasions.

by BarryTheHatchet 02.06.16 7:29

Well Mrs Fenn is dead now, so she cannot speak up for herself. And I was always brought up to never speak ill of the dead.
What possible reason would she have had for making it all up?
That's not to say that the despicable MSM haven't made a few things up, though. We all know that they have been doing that since day one.

by **Tony Bennett** 02.06.16 7:53

BarryTheHatchet wrote:Well Mrs Fenn is dead now, so she cannot speak up for herself. And I was always brought up to never speak ill of the dead.
What possible reason would she have had for making it all up?
That's not to say that the despicable MSM haven't made a few things up, though. We all know that they have been doing that since day one.

'Not speaking ill of the dead' is a sound principle, which applies especially to the immediate aftermath of a death.

However, it cannot possibly stop a police investigation, or others, from analysing whether or not a statement, made by a person who is now dead, is truthful or not.

I have posted elsewhere both the evidence that her statement is false and the probable reason.

To recap, I suggest that Mrs Fenn was prompted/persuaded/told to make a statement he Portuguese Police about two things:

1) An alleged crying incident and
2) An alleged burglary.

The effect of her making such a statement would...

(a) help to 'prove' that Madeleine was still alive at the time of the crying incident and
(b) suggest a possible abductor.

In my analysis of Mrs Fenn's statement, I pointed out these facts:

A. She didn't make it until 20 August, nearly four months since the alleged crying incident occurred
B. Two days before she went to the police to make her statement, most of the mainstream British media trailed in advance precisely what she was going to say - very clearly the work of Clarence Mitchel and the McCann Team
C. The lead-up to these events was two weeks of lurid headlines in the British and Portuguese press about the visit of Martin Grime's dogs to Praia da Luz, the smell of death, blood found in the apartment, DNA results saying it was Madeleine's blood etc. etc. - giving the McCann Team a strong motive for counteracting that negative publicity
D. Mrs Fenn was a friend of the Murat family, and therefore was in a position to be coaxed into 'helping' the situation by inventing a crying incident and a burglary.

May I just add this.

This case will never be solved - nor are most cases - if we simply take every statement at face value.

Statements that may be untrue in this case, and which IMO have led some to the wrong conclusions, include:

1. Mrs Fenn - crying incident and burglary
2. All statements about an alleged high tea at 4.45pm to 6.00pm on 3 May
3. Claims by David Payne and Kate McCann about an alleged visit of Payne to the McCanns' apartment at about 6.30pm on 3 May, and
4. Claims by the Smiths of seeing a man carrying a child who looked almost exactly like Wojchiech Krokowski ('Sagresman') and Tannerman.

by BarryTheHatchet 02.06.16 8:03

But PdL is a very small place and I would imagine that most of the village are/were friends of the Murat family. Mrs Fenn was of a similar age group to Jenny Murat, two old retired ladies, ex-pats hundreds of miles from home, in a very small town. I'd be more surprised if they didn't know each other, and/or were friends. I still don't think that would be enough of an incentive to pervert the course of justice by lying to a police investigation, into the disappearance/death of a toddler.

by plebgate 02.06.16 14:40

I stilll tend to think that Mrs. Fenn was telling the truth simply because of the added info. she gave that she rang her friend about the incident. I can't think why she would add that info. if she had been making the story up, but of course anything is possible.

What I can't understand though is why we were informed (was it in the bewk?) that Mrs. and her friend Fi had spoken quite abruptly to Mrs. Fenn. Why the need to impart that bit of info.

I think there is more to all of it than meets the eye, but as usual can't even begin to work it all out.

by whodunit 02.06.16 14:42

Didn't Mrs. Fenn herself say it was all hogwash or some such?

@Tony Bennett---"
whodunit: “The only alternative to a May 3rd incident - impossible imo, or mistaken identity - unlikely given Baker signing various children in and out - is a substitute child”.

REPLY: I do not think a ‘substitute child’ scenario is necessary if Cat Baker was deliberately lying about her being with Madeleine that week.

I've been trying not to implicate Ms. Baker unnecessarily. Of course it is possible that she deliberately lied about seeing Madeleine that week, but then what about the other creche workers? Seems to me all of the game playing was as much for the audience on the ground as it was for a future police investigation.

by Equity 02.06.16 16:15

If, as is being suggested, Mrs Fenn lied about hearing a child crying, would it really be at the instigation of the McCann's?

Tony wrote:
"C. The lead-up to these events was two weeks of lurid headlines in the British and Portuguese press about the visit of Martin Grime's dogs to Praia da Luz, the smell of death, blood found in the apartment, DNA results saying it was Madeleine's blood etc. etc. - giving the McCann Team a strong motive for counteracting that negative publicity."

Counteract negative publicity?

Scene: Mrs Fenn has agreed to act as a stooge and lie to the PJ for Team McCann - imagine the conversation...

"What is she going to be asked to say?"
"She's just going to say she heard an abandoned child in terrible distress in apartment 5A crying for nearly two hours. Oh, and she'll say she was on the phone to a friend - so we need to get the friend involved as well."
"Best not use a friend in PDL - we could arrange a long distance call to a 'friend' less likely to be questioned by the PJ?"
"Nope - PDL friend will be fine"
"But won't we lose a lot of public sympathy, things are bad enough as they are without making us out to be so heartless and neglectful... couldn't we ask her to say she heard Madeleine reciting nursery rhymes and lullabies to the twins. Or running up and down the apartment? What are we going to gain by asking her to say she heard a child in such distress?"
"Tough - we're going with the abandonment/crying angle."
"But I don't handle criticism very well - if anyone even slightly bursts the narcissistic bubble I live in, I get very frustrated. You must realise I am probably the last person on earth to agree to this. Wouldn't it be best not to say anything at all? If no one heard anyone crying why go to all this trouble and get Mrs Fenn to perjure herself and her friend just to make us look even more hideously neglectful in the eyes of the police, the media and the public?"
"I don't understand - it just doesn't make much sense. What if Mrs Fenn goes to the PJ and tells them we asked her to lie for us?"
Etcetera...

Intended to be gently satirical rather than sarcastic.

I think the anomalies pointed out regarding Mrs Fenn's statement are possibly valid - the suggested motives, less so.
.

by Maria 02.06.16 17:35

Maybe the press was pressing Mrs Fenn for info as she lived above the McCanns and thats how they knew her story before her statement, the press can be bullies and she might have felt intimidated.. It might also be possible the PJ didn't know she had anything to say til they saw it in the papers and then asked her to make a statement..

I can't see how the McCanns gained anything from her statement. She said the crying was on 1st may, maybe if she had have said the night of the 2nd or day of 3rd it might have helped them. But i dont think her statement helped them either way.

Maybe she did hear crying and it was Kate crying for Maddie, some women squeal like a child.

Its hard to tell really

by Verdi 02.06.16 20:19

Mrs Pamela Fenn should not stand alone when evaluating her contribution to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann - her niece, Carol Tranmer, must be considered along side..

Carol Tranmer's rogatory interview - 22nd April 2008 [snipped]

CT'After this we spent the rest of our time in the eastern Algarve to look at properties and on Thursday'my birthday was on Tuesday'we decided to take my aunt to lunch before our return the next Saturday. The incident happened on Thursday.

DC1485'Yes. You should continue and explain how everything happened.

CT'Yes, I will describe it; I will describe everything, everything that I can.

Carol Tranmer: We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible). I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident. We left when it was around 6h30, after having finished eating and doing other things, and on Friday we passed by car, continuing to look at properties and such. We did not visit any estate agents, and on Saturday we left. We got to the airport and heard people talking about a missing child. This did not yet bring anything back and we commented on the horror.

Carole Tranmer: After arriving home, Sunday morning we woke and read the Times Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's apartment and the notice about the missing child. I did not want to believe it and for this reason telephoned her and said: 'Did you see'' to which she responded 'It was been an inferno, terrible since both of you left'. After this I spoke with my cousin, whose son is at Sandhurst and told her 'What do you think we should do, do you think'' because at this time I remembered that I had seen something. It did not come to me right away but afterwards I told my husband 'Well, I saw that funny situation, you know'that type of behavior of the individual, with a sneaky aspect' to which he responded, 'Well you should talk to the police', and I said 'Yes, but it is likely that it has nothing to do with it'. After, we thought a bit more about it and I telephoned my cousin who is at Sandhurst and he told me that I should call the police and tell them. I did exactly this. I telephoned the Windsor police and told them, more or less, what I had told him and to my family. They told me that they would give me a number to call the Leicester police. We passed by the Windsor squadron but it is clear that no one was there so I called the Leciester police and told them basically what I had seen. They told me, well'thank you, we are going to get in touch with you, and after that everything happened. This is what happened, more or less.

Read on... http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

----------

This rogatory interview recorded in English and verbatim is loaded with questionable information - minus I think mention of the crying incident and the burglar that aged nervous Mrs Fenn caught by the ankle as he flew through the second/third floor window.

by Verdi 02.06.16 20:27

BarryTheHatchet wrote:But PdL is a very small place and I would imagine that most of the village are/were friends of the Murat family. Mrs Fenn was of a similar age group to Jenny Murat, two old retired ladies, ex-pats hundreds of miles from home, in a very small town. I'd be more surprised if they didn't know each other, and/or were friends. I still don't think that would be enough of an incentive to pervert the course of justice by lying to a police investigation, into the disappearance/death of a toddler.

Perhaps the recently joined member TaninaR might be able to fill in some gaps when next online. If I remember rightly she said her mother (she must be much the same age) is/was a friend of Robert Murat's mother, Maybe she knows something about Pamela Fenn?

by Verdi 02.06.16 20:27

Maria wrote:Maybe the press was pressing Mrs Fenn for info as she lived above the McCanns and thats how they knew her story before her statement, the press can be bullies and she might have felt intimidated.. It might also be possible the PJ didn't know she had anything to say til they saw it in the papers and then asked her to make a statement..

I can't see how the McCanns gained anything from her statement. She said the crying was on 1st may, maybe if she had have said the night of the 2nd or day of 3rd it might have helped them. But i dont think her statement helped them either way.

Maybe she did hear crying and it was Kate crying for Maddie, some women squeal like a child.

Its hard to tell really

And some squeal like a stuck pig.

by pennylane 02.06.16 20:28

Mrs Fenn heard a child (Maddie imo) crying "daddy daddy," and getting louder and louder, for 1 hour and 15 minutes on 1st May 2007 as she claimed. I do not for one minute believe she made it up.

by **Tony Bennett** 02.06.16 20:42

pennylane wrote:Mrs Fenn heard a child (Maddie imo) crying "Daddy, Daddy," and getting louder and louder, for 1 hour and 15 minutes on 1st May 2007 as she claimed. I do not for one minute believe she made it up.

Just for the record:

1. Despite Pamela Fenn allegedly hearing this continuous crying for 75 minutes, she did nothing about it, except (allegedly) contacting her friend Mrs Glyn

2. Madeleine was continuing to cry during the (alleged) 'phone call to Mrs Glyn

3. Despite their (alleged) conversation, neither woman (so far as we are aware) did anything about the (alleged) severe distress of the crying child

4. There is no record of Mrs Glyn being contacted to verify (or otherwise) this (alleged) 'phone call from Mrs Fenn

5. There is no evidence whatsoever that Pamela Fenn reported this (alleged) crying incident to anyone before 20 August 2007 - a full 111 days after it (allegedly) occurred

6. There is absolutely no evidence of any other holidaymaker, resident or Ocean Club member (or anyone else) hearing this (alleged) continuous distressed screaming.

by pennylane 02.06.16 20:48

Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:Mrs Fenn heard a child (Maddie imo) crying "Daddy, Daddy," and getting louder and louder, for 1 hour and 15 minutes on 1st May 2007 as she claimed. I do not for one minute believe she made it up.
Just for the record:

1. Despite Pamela Fenn allegedly hearing this continuous crying for 75 minutes, she did nothing about it, except (allegedly) contacting her friend Mrs Glyn

2. Madeleine was continuing to cry during the (alleged) 'phone call to Mrs Glyn

3. Despite their (alleged) conversation, neither woman (so far as we are aware) did anything about the (alleged) severe distress of the crying child

4. There is no record of Mrs Glyn being contacted to verify (or otherwise) this (alleged) 'phone call from Mrs Fenn

5. There is no evidence whatsoever that Pamela Fenn reported this (alleged) crying incident to anyone before 20 August 2007 - a full 111 days after it (allegedly) occurred

6. There is absolutely no evidence of any other holidaymaker, resident or Ocean Club member (or anyone else) hearing this (alleged) continuous distressed screaming.

Hi Tony,

I don't think any of the above points proves Mrs Fenn didn't hear the crying!

by Maria 02.06.16 20:49

Yes it's mind boggling, i hadn't read that other statement before from her niece/granddaughter? I'm surprised Mrs Fenn didn't mention the crying to her while they were chatting on the balcony. I also didn't read about the ankle grabbing burglar.

I never payed much attention to Mrs. fenn because I believed her, so never read much about her except that she heard the crying on 1st May. I had always believed her story. I need to read more about her.

by Maria 02.06.16 20:52

Verdi wrote:
Maria wrote:Maybe the press was pressing Mrs Fenn for info as she lived above the McCanns and thats how they knew her story before her statement, the press can be bullies and she might have felt intimidated.. It might also be possible the PJ didn't know she had anything to say til they saw it in the papers and then asked her to make a statement..

I can't see how the McCanns gained anything from her statement. She said the crying was on 1st may, maybe if she had have said the night of the 2nd or day of 3rd it might have helped them. But i dont think her statement helped them either way.

Maybe she did hear crying and it was Kate crying for Maddie, some women squeal like a child.

Its hard to tell really
And some squeal like a stuck pig.

Meaning?

by Columbo 02.06.16 20:59

Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:Mrs Fenn heard a child (Maddie imo) crying "Daddy, Daddy," and getting louder and louder, for 1 hour and 15 minutes on 1st May 2007 as she claimed. I do not for one minute believe she made it up.
Just for the record:

1. Despite Pamela Fenn allegedly hearing this continuous crying for 75 minutes, she did nothing about it, except (allegedly) contacting her friend Mrs Glyn

2. Madeleine was continuing to cry during the (alleged) 'phone call to Mrs Glyn

3. Despite their (alleged) conversation, neither woman (so far as we are aware) did anything about the (alleged) severe distress of the crying child

4. There is no record of Mrs Glyn being contacted to verify (or otherwise) this (alleged) 'phone call from Mrs Fenn

5. There is no evidence whatsoever that Pamela Fenn reported this (alleged) crying incident to anyone before 20 August 2007 - a full 111 days after it (allegedly) occurred

6. There is absolutely no evidence of any other holidaymaker, resident or Ocean Club member (or anyone else) hearing this (alleged) continuous distressed screaming.

As usual, Tony, excellent points. But, I'm confused as to why Mrs Fenn would fabricate the crying incident.

It's unlikely she was attention seeking as she waited so long to make her statement.

The fact she did nothing about the crying doesn't mean it didn't happen. It could have been typical British reticence - minding one's own business. We may think she *should* have done something at the time, but we are trying to establish if the incident happened - not judge her actions in relation to it.

It is confusing if GM pressured Mrs Fenn into making her statement. I cannot see how it would help the TM case, except trying to prove they really did abandon their children each night - a sort of "it's worth making ourselves look bad if it emphasises the abduction theory".

Like Pennylane, I think Mrs Fenn did hear some crying. Maybe less than 75 continuous minutes*, but I think she heard something. FWIW, I am dubious about Mrs Fenn grabbing the alleged burglar's ankle...

*75 minutes seems a curiously exact length of time, why not "just over an hour"?

by Liz Eagles 02.06.16 21:02

Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:Mrs Fenn heard a child (Maddie imo) crying "Daddy, Daddy," and getting louder and louder, for 1 hour and 15 minutes on 1st May 2007 as she claimed. I do not for one minute believe she made it up.
Just for the record:

1. Despite Pamela Fenn allegedly hearing this continuous crying for 75 minutes, she did nothing about it, except (allegedly) contacting her friend Mrs Glyn

2. Madeleine was continuing to cry during the (alleged) 'phone call to Mrs Glyn

3. Despite their (alleged) conversation, neither woman (so far as we are aware) did anything about the (alleged) severe distress of the crying child

4. There is no record of Mrs Glyn being contacted to verify (or otherwise) this (alleged) 'phone call from Mrs Fenn

5. There is no evidence whatsoever that Pamela Fenn reported this (alleged) crying incident to anyone before 20 August 2007 - a full 111 days after it (allegedly) occurred

6. There is absolutely no evidence of any other holidaymaker, resident or Ocean Club member (or anyone else) hearing this (alleged) continuous distressed screaming.

I think number 6 is a particularly good point.

by plebgate 02.06.16 21:25

Mrs. Fenn said that when she phoned her friend and reported the incident she (Mrs. Glyn) said I am not surprised.

Maybe that's why Mrs. Fenn didn't report it to reception as it could have been that there was quite a bit of crying from children as families regularly rented properties, but what was unusual was the length of time of the crying (hope that makes sense).

Regarding no other person reporting crying/screaming that's true, but remember the newspaper report that a couple went in to soothe a crying child. Where did that come from I wonder as I don't recall hearing that was in the police files.

I agree re. the point of Mrs. Fenn tackling a burglar due to her age, unless of course he was a big fat pot bellied smelly person who couldn't move very fast. winkwink

by worriedmum 02.06.16 21:42

Regarding point number 6,

i) The McCanns were on the end of the row
ii) Mrs Fenn was directly above
iii) Some of the surrounding (holiday let) apartments were not in use
iv) The tapas friends' apartments were in the surrounding area and were allegedly occupied only by other children
v) Anyone passing by would only hear crying for a minute at most, so would have had no idea how long it had been going on for.

Mrs Fenn was agitated enough to ring her friend. To me this suggests that she was not the type of person who would go downstairs and knock on the door. It proves that she was concerned but did not feel willing or able to cross the taboo of interfering in another family's affairs. If she had heard crying that sounded like the child was being physically hurt, I am fairly sure she would have gone down. But the crying is described as continuous. For all she knew the parents were present and ignoring it;sometimes it is a battle of wills to get a child to stay in bed, for instance.

For me the most important aspect of this crying incident as reported by Mrs Fenn, is that she only heard ONE child crying. Why , after 75 minutes, was there only one child crying?

by pennylane 02.06.16 21:43

plebgate wrote:Mrs. Fenn said that when she phoned her friend and reported the incident she (Mrs. Glyn) said I am not surprised.

Maybe that's why Mrs. Fenn didn't report it to reception as it could have been that there was quite a bit of crying from children as families regularly rented properties, but what was unusual was the length of time of the crying (hope that makes sense).

Regarding no other person reporting crying/screaming that's true, but remember the newspaper report that a couple went in to soothe a crying child. Where did that come from I wonder as I don't recall hearing that was in the police files.

I agree re. the point of Mrs. Fenn tackling a burglar due to her age, unless of course he was a big fat pot bellied smelly person who couldn't move very fast.

The child soothing couple was reported as happening on 2nd May I believe? Which is when the McCanns tried to move the crying incident to.

Re grabbing the burglar by the ankles, did Mrs Fenn really say that is what happened when she saw the burglar, or is it more efforts by TM to discredit her, just like Kate's description of the 'plummy accent,' and her 'disinterest in a missing child.'

by plebgate 02.06.16 21:52

Do you know if the soothing couples incident was in the police files pennylane? I can't remember but I do recall it was coverered by (I think) the Daily Express. It seems a strange story to me.

by BarryTheHatchet 02.06.16 21:54

It's bullshit, is what it is. It was all made up by Team McCann, and Desmond duly obliged. He's not so obliging now, though, after having been stung for half a million quid and being the stingy get that he is, he will want it back. And will probably get it, too. Eventually.

The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Observations on the 'Crying Incident' thread so far

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Just for the record - 6 facts about that ALLEGED crying incident

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Why Mrs Fenn appears to be the only witness to 'the crying incident' ?

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

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