Re: Textusa's revised theory, published 13 November, of The Last Photo - explained for further discussion

by Joss 16.11.15 2:30

Or here, it looks like she has a goiter:

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by Joss 16.11.15 2:41

My personal opinion is that i hope there would be more than just a supposed last family photo to prove that Madeleine was still around when she was supposed to be, and if the entire case just hinged on the photo alone it would not be very much to go by.

by Guest 16.11.15 7:20

Joss wrote:Or here, it looks like she has a goiter:

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Good analysis.

Photoshopped head can be taken off the list (again).

by Guest 16.11.15 8:18

The more you look at TextUsa's blog the worse it gets:

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She can not be serious.

Wrong glasses type.
Wrong pool size.
Wrong photographer position.
Wrong everything.

And she says it's nearly perfect.

Why is anyone taking this seriously?

by joyce1938 16.11.15 10:25

The little chubby neck I think is not unusual with tiny kids. Maddie was a slight child I think when really young . If short the neck will show it. Just a thought as one of my sons had short neck. joyce1938

by Joss 16.11.15 11:31

BlueBag wrote:
Joss wrote:Or here, it looks like she has a goiter:

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Good analysis.

Photoshopped head can be taken off the list (again).

I really dunno about photoshopping, i am no expert in that application and have never used photoshop for anything myself, but just saying her neck looks weird to me is all.
But no neck folds or prominent lines on this photo though, funny that.

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by joyce1938 16.11.15 11:53

She is quite a bit older in 2nd photo and I think that kids even out after being a bit taller and older. I really don't think all heads are photoshopped. joyce1938

by Joss 16.11.15 12:17

joyce1938 wrote:She is quite a bit older in 2nd photo ,and I think that kids even out after being a bit taller and older ,I really don't think all heads are photoshopped.joyce1938

I'm not saying anything is "photoshopped" Joyce, just noticing "spot the differences" in some of the photos that i find odd is all.

by Moonbathed skin 16.11.15 14:49

FWIW and IMO the last/not last photograph has as far as photoshopping is concerned become an unnecessary bone of contention between the two sides of the .....It has/Hasn't.... fence, this is particularly true for the "it has" posters.

The reason I say this is that if it proved to have been photoshopped (and I'm not saying it has been) then TM will just give another one of their lame excuses sorry explanations, for instance "Kate was topless", "Sean was piddling in the pool" "there were other peoples children in the photograph" etc. And it would just have to be swallowed in the same way as the reasons for the washing of cuddle cat, the scent of cadaverine being found or the children sharing a toothbrush. Are any of TM's explanations credible on these three things? not IMO, but it is falls on SY or PJ to prove otherwise. So unless the original photo was found then any enquirey would have to accept at face value the " yes, we had to photoshop it as there were other peoples children in the photograph" or whatever they can think up, and if it was photoshopped then they will already have an explanation ready to be trotted out.

Just my humble opinion.

by Joss 16.11.15 16:40

Moonbathed skin wrote:FWIW and IMO the last/not last photograph has as far as photoshopping is concerned become an unnecessary bone of contention between the two sides of the .....It has/Hasn't.... fence, this is particularly true for the "it has" posters.

The reason I say this is that if it proved to have been photoshopped (and I'm not saying it has been) then TM will just give another one of their lame excuses sorry explanations, for instance "Kate was topless", "Sean was piddling in the pool" "there were other peoples children in the photograph" etc. And it would just have to be swallowed in the same way as the reasons for the washing of cuddle cat, the scent of cadaverine being found or the children sharing a toothbrush. Are any of TM's explanations credible on these three things? not IMO, but it is falls on SY or PJ to prove otherwise. So unless the original photo was found then any enquirey would have to accept at face value the " yes, we had to photoshop it as there were other peoples children in the photograph" or whatever they can think up, and if it was photoshopped then they will already have an explanation ready to be trotted out.

Just my humble opinion.

I agree that they would have an explanation too if it was proven the photo was photoshopped. I think the best one i have heard yet was K. McC had handled corpses before their holiday in PDL, that was the reason for the cadaver transfer on the McCann items the dogs alerted to. As if.

by **Tony Bennett** 16.11.15 17:31

Moonbathed skin wrote:FWIW and IMO the last/not last photograph has as far as photoshopping is concerned become an unnecessary bone of contention between the two sides of the .....It has/Hasn't.... fence, this is particularly true for the "it has" posters.

The reason I say this is that if it proved to have been photoshopped...then TM will just give another one of their lame excuses sorry explanations, for instance..."yes, we had to photoshop it as there were other peoples children in the photograph" or whatever they can think up, and if it was photoshopped then they will already have an explanation ready to be trotted out.

The 'bone of contention' is being fought over because the subject does matter. It is far from being 'unnecessary'.

I want to re-examine some points in bobbin's long ramble today about x-axes and y-axes, which tried to overwhelm the clearest possible evidence provided by 'knitted' in his video that - of course - vertical lines on sunglasses ARE possible. He provided absolute proof that it is possible.

Here are some points made by bobbin in that post - and some others I want to refer to:
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bobbin said: "In the polls on the Maddie case, there are more people who in their gut instinct feel that the image in Gerry’s sunglasses in the last photo is incorrect and therefore it must have been manipulated into place rather than occurring naturally. It is always a sound reaction to trust gut instincts".

REPLY: It's true that the balance of opinion to date in those two polls is that the photo has been photoshopped. Although it must be said that a majority prefer 'The Last Photo is genuine' to Textusa's ideas. A substantial proportion of the 188 people who have voted agree that it's been photoshopped, but disagree with Textusa on how.

I am not sure that it can be said that everyone who voted 'It's been photoshopped' is doing so form a 'gut instinct', but I'll that pass.

In any event, the poll is just a snapshot of opinion at this moment in time. Soon after Operation Grange was set up, the forum-owner ran a poll about Grange headed just 'Whitewash' or 'Justice'. I had called it an expensive charade from Day One. The poll verdict was, by a considerable majority, that Grange was an honest search for the truth and not a cover-up. The poll was re-run three years later, and almost no-one thought it was an honest search for the truth.

bobbin wrote: "Both flat-earthians and instinctives agree the imagery to be pool side and pool water".

REPLY: So, describing those who think the Last Photo is genuine, including Prof H Farid, as 'flat-earther'? Not nice. Not nice at all.

bobbin: "Every photo of sunglasses worn perpendicular to the face of an upright person, looking face on, will show reflection of the lines in the true image of the field of vision".

REPLY: Then you just have to watch knitted's video again. Plus the fact (as I think is admitted by bobbin) that the lenses in Gerry's sunglasses are not straight, they are curved

bobbin: " Conclusion. In the video above, the expert does not replicate the conditions of the last photo".

REPLY: 'knitted' did not carry out an exact replication of the 'Last Photo' conditions - but he didn't need to. He intended to defeat the claim by both bobbin & Textusa that you could NEVER - under any circumstances - get vertical lines in sunglasses. He did that successfully.

bobbin: "The common experience of the instinctives is that when they are looking at reflective sun glasses, the sun glasses will reflect the scenery behind them, as if they were looking at the true image themselves but with left eye instead of right and vice versa."

REPLY: Again, look at 'knitted's video for a practical demonstration.

bobbin: "The laws of mathematical geometry confirm the instinctives’ belief".

REPLY: Quite simply, a false statement of fact. Once again, knitted's video tells you all you need to know - and from his video we can see how the image in the (acrylic) sunglasses varies as he moves around. We do not need reams of pages from a Grade 8 Mathematics book or a degree in Physics to work this out.

'knitted's practical demonstration provides all the proof we need - and of course avoids the convoluted explanations that folk like bobbin and Textusa have to resort to, one they maintain that the sunglasses have been photoshopped.

Nuala Seation and Textusa "I'm not interested in what your experts had to say. We don't know who they are and we don't know what questions they were asked. Besides which no-one should blindly take the word of an expert and I'm surprised that you do. Anyone who has seen expert witnesses giving testimony in court cases knows two experts on the same subject can have totally opposing views. So expecting to shut down this debate with the "experts" argument isn't going to work. We're intelligent people with minds of our own and we use them.

REPLY: The plain fact is that PeterMac has gone to two acknowledged top experts, and they, independently of each other, pronounce the Last Photo 'genuine' with no evidence of photoshopping. Speaking for the 'Last Photo is genuine' brigade, I don't think any of us are saying that their opinion is the 'last word'. Let the photoshopping camp get hold two acknowledged experts, also using forensic techniques, who can say that the photo has been photoshopped - and then tell us how - and the debate will be more even. But until they do, the photoshopping brigade amateurs are simply preferring their own individualist impressions over the experts. And one of the other key problems for the photoshopping brigade is that they all furiously differ amongst themselves about HOW it has been photoshopped.



Nuala Seaton, Textusa and bobbin: "The reflection in GM's sunglasses is impossible. The photo was photoshopped".

REPLY: Watch 'knitted's video

by Guest 16.11.15 17:43

BlueBag wrote:The more you look at TextUsa's blog the worse it gets:

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She can not be serious.

Wrong glasses type.
Wrong pool size.
Wrong photographer position.
Wrong everything.

And she says it's nearly perfect.

Why is anyone taking this seriously?

I wonder why bobbin didn't respond to this.

by **Tony Bennett** 16.11.15 17:58

BlueBag wrote:
BlueBag wrote:The more you look at TextUsa's blog the worse it gets:

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She can not be serious.

Wrong glasses type.
Wrong pool size.
Wrong photographer position.
Wrong everything.

And she says it's nearly perfect.

Why is anyone taking this seriously?
I wonder why bobbin didn't respond to this.

I think bobbin 'instinctively' feels that Textusa is right about everything - and that she must be accepted without question. As do 40-odd other souls on here, apparently.

(Signed) A Flat Earther

by Doug D 16.11.15 18:32

Never had a problem with the sunglasses or anything else in the picture, other than the composition, which gut instinct to me suggests the insertion of MM.

Even a rubbish photographer taking a photo of three people would get them all somewhere near the middle unless there was a reason not to and as I have said before, with digital cameras, nobody ever takes just one photo, ‘just in case’, so where are the other similar photos, especially the one which would have had AM looking up after KM called her?

There is nothing of note to the left as we look at it and if there was someone else who would have been in shot to the right if not taken in the way it has, I am sure we would have heard about them.

If Textusa’s suggestion of a contrived photo taken a couple of weeks later was correct, surely they would have made a better job of it?

Prof H Farid has apparently come up with computer analysis programs for photos which in this case produce no evidence of photoshopping, but I have little doubt that a program could equally be written to allow a photoshop insert and average/blur the pixel colours at the edges of any insert to leave no evidence and create/correct any shadows etc.
Much the same sort of program working around in the other direction surely?

by **Tony Bennett** 16.11.15 19:03

Doug D wrote:Never had a problem with the sunglasses or anything else in the picture, other than the composition, which gut instinct to me suggests the insertion of MM.

Prof H Farid has apparently come up with computer analysis programs for photos which in this case produce no evidence of photoshopping, but I have little doubt that a program could equally be written to allow a photoshop insert and average/blur the pixel colours at the edges of any insert to leave no evidence and create/correct any shadows etc.

Much the same sort of program working around in the other direction surely?

@ DougD Did you see BlueBag's posts on page 6 of the thread where he dealt more than adequately with the possibility that Madeleine had been photoshopped in.

With very persuasive analysis of the two Madeleine pics (with elbow, without elbow), he showed that the photo of Madeleine on her own was photoshopped FROM, i.e. OUT OF the 'Last Photo', and not photoshopped in (as Textusa and bobbin suggest).

If you've not already seen that analysis, please have a look and come back here and give us your verdict,

I think a photoshopping programme that could precisely determine where shadows might fall on a photo that is photoshopped in would be a very ambitious project indeed.

by hentie 16.11.15 19:20

Two independent experts who declared photo not photo shopped.
Surely if there was any software available to disguise photo shopping, these experts would know it as a possibility and not give a definitive answer?
Just a thought.

by Doug D 16.11.15 21:39

TB:

@ DougD Did you see BlueBag's posts on page 6 of the thread where he dealt more than adequately with the possibility that Madeleine had been photoshopped in.

With very persuasive analysis of the two Madeleine pics (with elbow, without elbow), he showed that the photo of Madeleine on her own was photoshopped FROM, i.e. OUT OF the 'Last Photo', and not photoshopped in (as Textusa and bobbin suggest).

If you've not already seen that analysis, please have a look and come back here and give us your verdict,’

Bluebag P.5. 11.35 :

‘Another reason TextUsa is wrong:

The picture without the elbow was created FROM the "last photo" not the other way around.’

Yes I have seen it, but sorry, Bluebag is displaying false logic here imo.

Yes, I agree that the shot of MM on her own has clearly been photoshopped out of the ‘last picture’, not very well, with just a bit of quick cut and pasting of the wall etc to build up the background, but that does not preclude her from having been professionally photoshopped in, in the first place.

It would be interesting to see the two expert opinions in full, as to whether they actually say ‘no evidence of photoshopping’ or ‘not photo shopped’ which is what hentie is now saying.

As for:

‘I think a photoshopping programme that could precisely determine where shadows might fall on a photo that is photoshopped in would be a very ambitious project indeed.’

any program looking for photoshopped anomalies would be looking for exactly the same types of discrepancies that a ‘create’ program would be seeking to build in, so sophistication wise, I reckon it would be very similar.

Shadows are very much an inexact science, in yes they fall where they should fall, but small differences such as leaning back or leaning forward, even if ever so slight, make differences, so without the complete 3D picture it is impossible to tell exactly where they should fall and no program is going to identify that with 100% certainty.

If the experts are actually categoric with a ‘not photo shopped’ verdict, I will happily fall on my sword and remove my 'gut feeling'.

by sammi1967 16.11.15 21:50

Concerning the image in the lens of the sunglasses.....wouldn't it be easier to look through hundreds of holiday snaps online to see how many images are vertical instead of horizontal...this would be a good indication of how possible it is. If anyone has the patience to do so.

by **Jill Havern** 16.11.15 21:59

Professor Farid sent this link to PeterMac to help explain his analysis: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Grande Finale 16.11.15 22:10

1) textusa assumes GM's glasses convex in both horizontal and vertical planes but this is not the case (see image below.) this flat plane makes a vertical image possible as per the youtube video.

2) If sunglasses were hanging from GM's Tshirt then GM's Chin is missing from the reflection.

3) The important point is the date of this photograph and according to all sources this is easily altered.

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by Guest 17.11.15 7:51

Doug D wrote:TB:

@ DougD Did you see BlueBag's posts on page 6 of the thread where he dealt more than adequately with the possibility that Madeleine had been photoshopped in.

With very persuasive analysis of the two Madeleine pics (with elbow, without elbow), he showed that the photo of Madeleine on her own was photoshopped FROM, i.e. OUT OF the 'Last Photo', and not photoshopped in (as Textusa and bobbin suggest).

If you've not already seen that analysis, please have a look and come back here and give us your verdict,’

Bluebag P.5. 11.35 :

‘Another reason TextUsa is wrong:

The picture without the elbow was created FROM the "last photo" not the other way around.’

Yes I have seen it, but sorry, Bluebag is displaying false logic here imo.

There is no false logic in what I said.

You even agree with what I said.

Bizarre.

People WERE claiming that Madeleine was photoshopped in from the picture without the elbow. I guess that claim will disappear for a while now (don't worry someone will resurrect it like it was never debunked).

TextUSa uses that picture in her 3 picture composite graphic.

No false logic.

But now the goalposts are moving once again as they always do... now we have yet another photo thrown in that Madeleine was supposedly photoshopped from.

How convoluted do you want to get?

by Guest 17.11.15 7:52

Grande Finale wrote:1) textusa assumes GM's glasses convex in both horizontal and vertical planes but this is not the case (see image below.) this flat plane makes a vertical image possible as per the youtube video.

2) If sunglasses were hanging from GM's Tshirt then GM's Chin is missing from the reflection.

3) The important point is the date of this photograph and according to all sources this is easily altered.

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ABSOLUTELY!!!

TextUsa analysis is totally bogus.

by Guest 17.11.15 8:00

Tony Bennett wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
BlueBag wrote:The more you look at TextUsa's blog the worse it gets:

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She can not be serious.

Wrong glasses type.
Wrong pool size.
Wrong photographer position.
Wrong everything.

And she says it's nearly perfect.

Why is anyone taking this seriously?
I wonder why bobbin didn't respond to this.
I think bobbin 'instinctively' feels that Textusa is right about everything - and that she must be accepted without question. As do 40-odd other souls on here, apparently.

(Signed) A Flat Earther

I'll say it again.

Why is anyone with half a brain listening to the junk she is saying?

Just look at that picture.... it's garbage.

by Guest 17.11.15 8:13

Well, well, well...

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Outrageous.

And a key to what is going on with this crap.

I think we are looking at inverse reputation management.

by Joannep43 17.11.15 8:15

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The obvious thing to me is what another poster has mentioned.If this photo had been take on or around the 18th May then Gerry McCann would have quite a suntan.This photo looks like it was taken on the first or second day of the holiday.Occams razor is an old principle which says the simplest answer is usually correct not the more complex theory.It is still relevant today.Its simple to change a date.

Textusa's revised theory, published 13 November, of The Last Photo - explained for further discussion

I've carefully read the explanation of Textusa's Last Photo theory of the composite of 3 images and I think...