Blood spray

by Shhh 05.02.15 12:41

amaral believes the blood spray on the wall was from an attempt at reanimation.

A dead body doesn't bleed. So where did it come from? If blood had pooled in the mouth then maybe so during CPR. Or if maddie was choking and someone did an emergency tracheotomy. Other than that, if Amaral believes it occurred during reanimation and was a spray I can't think of any other possibilities as a dead body doesn't bleed.

by Shhh 05.02.15 13:29

Sorry posted in ŵrong forum, could this be moved please

by Guest 05.02.15 13:31

What blood spray?

Nothing was found on 4 May 2007 when the INML guys did two sweeps of 5A for blood.

The dogs alerted to the tiles, not to blood spray.

One of the tiles had a match to Madeleine, but in amounts so minute the FSS could not say whether it was blood or not.

Blood spray? That the INML did not find? That the dogs did not find? That the FSS did not find?

Sorry, not buying this one.

by Joss 05.02.15 14:02

Elça Craig wrote:What blood spray?

Nothing was found on 4 May 2007 when the INML guys did two sweeps of 5A for blood.

The dogs alerted to the tiles, not to blood spray.

One of the tiles had a match to Madeleine, but in amounts so minute the FSS could not say whether it was blood or not.

Blood spray? That the INML did not find? That the dogs did not find? That the FSS did not find?

Sorry, not buying this one.

Weren't there traces of blood on curtains & on the wall?

by Joss 05.02.15 14:07

Meanwhile, Keela, the blood-hound, found the smell of blood - note, blood, not just ‘body fluids’:
a) in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the external window of the apartment (exactly where Eddie had found the scent of human cadaverine), and

b) in the McCanns’ hired Renault Scenic:
(i) on the car key
(ii) in the interior of the car boot.

by Shhh 05.02.15 14:16

Thanks for moving. I can't copy and paste for some reason, hideho posted transcript of an interview on facebook group yesterday with Amaral where he said about blood spray and reanimation.

by LombardySkeptik 05.02.15 14:59

My understanding is that the evidence for blood (and especially Madeleines blood) being in 5A is far from clear

by Ayniia 05.02.15 15:13

Shhh wrote:Thanks for moving. I can't copy and paste for some reason, hideho posted transcript of an interview on facebook group yesterday with Amaral where he said about blood spray and reanimation.

I don't use facebook but I found this: http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Goncalo-Amaral/3A-Kazlux-Meeting-with-GOncalo-AMaral-Sofia-Leal-1-912167.html

"Q: What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?
A: Possibly from an attempt at reanimation." GA answer

by Shhh 05.02.15 16:56

That's the one, thanks.

by stumo 05.02.15 20:13

Slightly off topic but recently we had a customer at work who had a problem with a valve in his arm (which is part of a connector) that's used in dialysis.

The valve started leaking, initially it was a tiny dribble, and we were alerted to it by him asking for a plaster, within seconds his blood was spurting out in Monty Python style.

We quickly applied a tourniquet and called for an ambulance.

I wouldn't have believed how far the blood went if i hadn't seen it for myself, he had been sitting down and there was blood around 7 or possibly 8 foot away.

by tungsten tel 05.02.15 20:18

Ayniia wrote:
Shhh wrote:Thanks for moving. I can't copy and paste for some reason, hideho posted transcript of an interview on facebook group yesterday with Amaral where he said about blood spray and reanimation.

I don't use facebook but I found this: http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Goncalo-Amaral/3A-Kazlux-Meeting-with-GOncalo-AMaral-Sofia-Leal-1-912167.html

"Q: What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?
A: Possibly from an attempt at reanimation." GA answer

Did Amaral not say MM may have died twice ? Im sure I've read that on this site .

by **Hobs** 06.02.15 10:59

Arterial blood spray can travel for a fair distance since it is pumped by the heart to go round the body.
Venous blood is the one that tends to dribble as it doesn't have the pressure behind it since it is going back to the heart.

by Shhh 06.02.15 21:10

tungsten tel wrote:
Ayniia wrote:
Shhh wrote:Thanks for moving. I can't copy and paste for some reason, hideho posted transcript of an interview on facebook group yesterday with Amaral where he said about blood spray and reanimation.

I don't use facebook but I found this: http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Goncalo-Amaral/3A-Kazlux-Meeting-with-GOncalo-AMaral-Sofia-Leal-1-912167.html

"Q: What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?
A: Possibly from an attempt at reanimation." GA answer
Did Amaral not say MM may have died twice ? Im sure I've read that on this site .

Interesting.

Been reading, not really any risks of hitting an artery during a trachy. When husband has his coughing after the procedure would produce blood and secretions to fly out of the tube. He did one so strong it flew to the end of the bed.

Perhaps we have our blood spray.

Then unfortunately maddie passed due to a secondary injury. Head injury? Accounts for blood loss behind sofa.

Fell behind sofa/from sofa causing massive head trauma, choking on "the bead" at the same time. First thing in any situation is to clear the airway.

by ChippyM 07.02.15 12:13

Shhh wrote:amaral believes the blood spray on the wall was from an attempt at reanimation.

A dead body doesn't bleed. So where did it come from? If blood had pooled in the mouth then maybe so during CPR. Or if maddie was choking and someone did an emergency tracheotomy. Other than that, if Amaral believes it occurred during reanimation and was a spray I can't think of any other possibilities as a dead body doesn't bleed.

A broken neck may result in someone breathing out a spray of blood as they are dying, that's one possibility. Maybe a pattern like that could be caused by someone with this type of injury trying to pull them selves up from the floor and trying to find help?

by **PeterMac** 07.02.15 13:05

ChippyM wrote:
A dead body doesn't bleed. . . . I can't think of any other possibilities as a dead body doesn't bleed.

Yes they do. Bodies "leak" fluids of all sorts, hence the need to wear gloves and protective gear when handling them ( like check trousers, and a surgical cuddlecat to mop up spills !)

by G-Unit 07.02.15 13:43

It's probably me being stupid, but where can I find the information that it was blood on the wall?

by Guest 07.02.15 14:07

Joss wrote:
Elça Craig wrote:What blood spray?

Nothing was found on 4 May 2007 when the INML guys did two sweeps of 5A for blood.

The dogs alerted to the tiles, not to blood spray.

One of the tiles had a match to Madeleine, but in amounts so minute the FSS could not say whether it was blood or not.

Blood spray? That the INML did not find? That the dogs did not find? That the FSS did not find?

Sorry, not buying this one.
Weren't there traces of blood on curtains & on the wall?

The samples were all tested at the FSS in Birmingham, UK. Not a single one was identified by the FSS as blood, therefore you are reliant on Keela, who alerted in 5A to a floor tiles, not to the wall.

Keela also alerted to the key of the Renault Scenic. Again the sample was too small for the FSS to call it blood, so they called it cellular material. Once again you are reliant on Keela that this material is actually blood. Since Eddie alerted to the key as well, if you believe Eddie alerted to 'cadaverine' (never ever mentioned by Martin Grime) then you tend to go down the 'cadaver' route re the key.

That is unfortunate on two counts. Martin Grime is clear that Eddie would alert to decomposing blood, amongst other decomposition sources. And the FSS identified the 'cellular material' as originating with Gerry McCann, who is not a corpse.

On to the boot of the Scenic. Keela alerted, Eddie was not specifically tried out there. The FSS found 37 markers, and concluded these came from at least 3 people. They did not identify anything as blood, though if Keela is correct there was blood in minute amounts present.

Simplest solution? Gerry got a tiny scratch or graze in the boot, then got more blood on the key. Still, no one is dead. No cadaver and no 'cadaverine'.

What, if anything, did the FSS actually test for blood? Curtains samples from 5A, plus IIRC a couple of fabric samples from the rear of the sofa in 5A, plus vegetation from the rear of 5A where Eddie also alerted twice. The findings were simple - they could not find blood.

Therefore, one is entirely reliant on Keela that blood has been found, first on a floor tile in 5A, then on the Scenic key, then in the boot.

And if you trust in Keela, then surely you have to trust that, as she did not alert to 'blood spray' on the wall and curtains, the explanation is that there was no blood spray.

The photo of 5A showing marks on a wall proves nothing. If that was all that was required, then you could drop the FSS testing entirely.

The FSS did not find blood. Keela did not alert to blood spray. There was no blood spray.

by Guest 07.02.15 14:24

"I expressed the hope that Nicola will be different to Andy, and rather than sticking to the remit, she will explore ways to work outside of the box.

I have sent an email to Operation Grange to this effect, to the extent that she would do better by engaging the citizens of Luz. I fully expect a 100% automated thank you in response, and then complete silence. But one can only hope."

Elca Craig, you wrote the above on 23rd December, did you receive a reply to your email?

by G-Unit 07.02.15 14:37

Thank you for that. So. Eddie alerted in 5A behind the couch and in the parent's bedroom. As Keela alerted to blood behind the couch on the tiles, this could have been what Eddie was alerting to also. Keela did not alert in the bedroom, so we could assume Eddie was alerting to cadaverine there. Eddie also alerted to the McCann's hired car, and so did Keela, so there was probably blood there also. In addition, Eddie alerted to Kate's clothes and cuddle cat. If Keela did not, then that was probably cadaverine also. Corrections welcome!

by Guest 07.02.15 14:53

Ladyinred wrote:"I expressed the hope that Nicola will be different to Andy, and rather than sticking to the remit, she will explore ways to work outside of the box.

I have sent an email to Operation Grange to this effect, to the extent that she would do better by engaging the citizens of Luz. I fully expect a 100% automated thank you in response, and then complete silence. But one can only hope."

Elca Craig, you wrote the above on 23rd December, did you receive a reply to your email?

I have sent info to OG on a small number of occasions. The response has always been an automated thank you, with no further reply. In exchanges with others, they have had the same one-way experience.

I can see no reason why OG should keep me updated, but it would be nice if their automatic email indicated this, rather than implying that a further response may be forthcoming.

by Guest 07.02.15 15:16

G-Unit wrote:Thank you for that. So. Eddie alerted in 5A behind the couch and in the parent's bedroom. As Keela alerted to blood behind the couch on the tiles, this could have been what Eddie was alerting to also. Keela did not alert in the bedroom, so we could assume Eddie was alerting to cadaverine there. Eddie also alerted to the McCann's hired car, and so did Keela, so there was probably blood there also. In addition, Eddie alerted to Kate's clothes and cuddle cat. If Keela did not, then that was probably cadaverine also. Corrections welcome!

We have absolutely no evidence that Eddie alerts to cadaverine. There is at least one other product of decomposition, so 'cadaverine' is merely a term used by folks trying to imply a cadaver.

The dog's handler, Martin Grime, does not use the term 'cadaverine', but explains that Eddie will alert to many sources of decomposition. One of these sources is blood, and Martin Grime is in the PJ files on two occasions making it clear that Eddie will alert to blood, not fresh blood but decomposing blood.

Eddie alerted to the Scenic car key and the FSS identified the source as Gerry McCann i.e. not a cadaver.

I have explained this at length over at ShiningInLuz, but here is the short version.

The McCanns moved from 5A to 5H to spend a short part of one night with the Payne's. Eddie checked 5H and did not alert.

On 4 May, the McCanns moved to 4G, where they spent 2 months. Eddie checked 4G and did not alert. Further, 2 items of clothing to which Eddie would later alert, plus Cuddle Cat, can be proved to have been in 4G.

The McCanns moved to 27 Rua das Flores on 2nd July 2007. From there Eddie alerted to 3 items of clothing (two of them Kate's, one of them Sean's), Cuddle Cat and 2 places in the Scenic.

Anyone who wishes to suggest a death and cover-up in 5A has to explain why 5H is clean and 4G is clean. Particularly if there was blood spray in 5A, which there wasn't.

Finally, Eddie's alert in the parent's bedroom in 5A. You need to look at the long version (about 90 minutes) on YouTube. Martin Grime essentially dismisses Eddie's alert in the bedroom, so Martin Grime doesn't think Eddie is 100% accurate. He picks and chooses.

As an aside, where was Cuddle Cat in the forensic photos taken in the early hours of 4 May? In the children's bedroom on Madeleine's bed. That's another place that Eddie did not alert, so Cuddle Cat has to be explained.

What was found on the clothes to which Eddie alerted? I can't see anything from that going into the evidence chain, so the answer appears to be nothing.

by Joss 07.02.15 15:17

G-Unit wrote:It's probably me being stupid, but where can I find the information that it was blood on the wall?

I thought it was because of all the markers on the walls pictured here:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm

by G-Unit 07.02.15 16:05

Elça Craig wrote:
G-Unit wrote:Thank you for that. So. Eddie alerted in 5A behind the couch and in the parent's bedroom. As Keela alerted to blood behind the couch on the tiles, this could have been what Eddie was alerting to also. Keela did not alert in the bedroom, so we could assume Eddie was alerting to cadaverine there. Eddie also alerted to the McCann's hired car, and so did Keela, so there was probably blood there also. In addition, Eddie alerted to Kate's clothes and cuddle cat. If Keela did not, then that was probably cadaverine also. Corrections welcome!

We have absolutely no evidence that Eddie alerts to cadaverine. There is at least one other product of decomposition, so 'cadaverine' is merely a term used by folks trying to imply a cadaver.

The dog's handler, Martin Grime, does not use the term 'cadaverine', but explains that Eddie will alert to many sources of decomposition. One of these sources is blood, and Martin Grime is in the PJ files on two occasions making it clear that Eddie will alert to blood, not fresh blood but decomposing blood.

Eddie alerted to the Scenic car key and the FSS identified the source as Gerry McCann i.e. not a cadaver.

I have explained this at length over at ShiningInLuz, but here is the short version.

The McCanns moved from 5A to 5H to spend a short part of one night with the Payne's. Eddie checked 5H and did not alert.

On 4 May, the McCanns moved to 4G, where they spent 2 months. Eddie checked 4G and did not alert. Further, 2 items of clothing to which Eddie would later alert, plus Cuddle Cat, can be proved to have been in 4G.

The McCanns moved to 27 Rua das Flores on 2nd July 2007. From there Eddie alerted to 3 items of clothing (two of them Kate's, one of them Sean's), Cuddle Cat and 2 places in the Scenic.

Anyone who wishes to suggest a death and cover-up in 5A has to explain why 5H is clean and 4G is clean. Particularly if there was blood spray in 5A, which there wasn't.

Finally, Eddie's alert in the parent's bedroom in 5A. You need to look at the long version (about 90 minutes) on YouTube. Martin Grime essentially dismisses Eddie's alert in the bedroom, so Martin Grime doesn't think Eddie is 100% accurate. He picks and chooses.

As an aside, where was Cuddle Cat in the forensic photos taken in the early hours of 4 May? In the children's bedroom on Madeleine's bed. That's another place that Eddie did not alert, so Cuddle Cat has to be explained.

What was found on the clothes to which Eddie alerted? I can't see anything from that going into the evidence chain, so the answer appears to be nothing.

Thank you again. It is all much clearer to me now.

by lj 07.02.15 16:14

PeterMac wrote:
ChippyM wrote:
A dead body doesn't bleed. . . . I can't think of any other possibilities as a dead body doesn't bleed.
Yes they do. Bodies "leak" fluids of all sorts, hence the need to wear gloves and protective gear when handling them ( like check trousers, and a surgical cuddlecat to mop up spills !)

Plus CPR is meant to maintain a "circulation" where the pump function of the heart temporarily is taken over by compressions on the chest.