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What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

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Did Gerry McCann bury Madeleine's body?

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What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by NormanStebson on 23.12.14 20:48

Before I begin, I would like to make it clear that what I write below is only a THEORY. I am not purporting any of this to be fact. I am not stating that the McCann's are definitely involved in the disappearance of their daughter, I am merely putting forward a THEORY as to what might have happened to Madeleine McCann based on the facts that we know.

From what I understand, Madeleine was last seen by three independent witnesses between 4:30pm and 6pm on 3rd May. Therefore we have to assume that Madeleine was still alive at this time. The McCann’s claim that they arrived at the tapas restaurant at around 8:30pm, and that their children were asleep by 7:30pm. Kate raised the alarm between 10pm and 10:30pm, and Gerry McCann was said to be at the apartment when the police arrived at around 11:15pm. If Madeleine was involved in a fatal accident in the apartment during the evening then there would only be a few hours available to hide the body from the earliest time when the accident could have occurred (shortly after 6pm).

If Gerry hid the body then he would have to do it that very night and in a place that is generally out of sight to passers by. Bearing in mind that Gerry is in an area that he would have limited knowledge of, he would probably opt to bury the body nearby and in a location that he is already aware of. The most obvious place would be underground, but where would Gerry get a spade or other suitable tool to dig a deep hole at such short notice? And how would he be able to carry the spade as well as the body to the location? To avoid being seen, he probably wouldn’t be able to go further than about half a mile on foot in any direction whilst carrying a body. He would also have to take the quietest and darkest route to the location. Plus he would need to select a suitable place that is quiet, then dig the hole, then bury the body, then refill the hole and leave the ground looking undisturbed. The digging would probably have to be carried out after 9pm when it is dark. The sun doesn’t begin to set until at least 8:30pm in Portugal in May. This only leaves about 90 minutes or so for Gerry to remove the body from the apartment and bury it whilst under the cover of darkness. 

There are no independent witnesses to confirm that Gerry was at the tapas restaurant between 9pm and 10pm. Therefore I would suggest that around 9pm when Gerry went to the apartment to check on the children, he might have found the body and then rushed to a nearby location to dig a hole to hide the body. He might have been on his way to this location when Jez Wilkins saw him outside the apartment. But of course, where would Gerry get a spade at that time of night? It would be too difficult, dirty and time-consuming to have dug a hole in hard mud with his bare hands. It would probably also result in Gerry’s hands being cut and bruised during the process. The only suitable place to dig a hole quickly and with bare hands is on a sandy beach. It is very easy to make a deep hole in sand with bare hands, plus sand wipes off clothes and skin quite easily. The hole would need to be at least 3 feet deep to ensure the body is well hidden for the time being. This could be carried out within a period of about 30 minutes including the time it takes to get to and from the beach. Gerry was said to have been gone a long time when he went to check on the children at around 9pm, so he would have had ample time to get to the beach and dig a hole in the sand. The Smith family say they saw Gerry McCann carrying a child at around 9:50pm on the Rua da Escola Primária, and that he was heading towards the small sandy beach, just east of the overturned boats, which is 200 metres away from the Smith sighting. Could it be that Gerry was on his way back down to this small alcove beach to hide the body in a hole that he had dug earlier? This particular beach looks to be very secluded and it is within an alcove surrounded by rocks. There are also a few crevices on this beach that would provide cover for someone digging a hole and burying a body. The tides overnight would wash away any cadaver scent on the surface of the sand whilst the body remains well hidden below. The tide would also wash and smooth away any evidence that a hole had been dug in the sand. The only way in which the body would be discovered is if that part of the beach was dug up at some point in the future.

In my opinion, this small beach should have been the first place to be dug up in search for Madeleine. This entire small beach could be dug down to 3 feet within one day by a team of people, each with a spade (or even quicker using a mechanical digger).

Although it is likely that Gerry would have returned to the site at some point to take the body to a more secure location, the beach is still well worth digging up by a search party because it could be done easily within a few hours, and without permanently defacing the area in any way.

NOTE: Although it is possible for Gerry alone to have dug the hole and buried the body, it could be that an accomplice (eg: David Payne) dug the hole. Gerry’s only task then would be to carry the body to the hole, which he could have done before the alarm was raised by Kate between 10pm and 10:30pm. An accomplice would also be handy in order to ensure that there are no witnesses on the beach when Gerry arrives to bury the body in the pre-dug hole.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this theory.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by aquila on 23.12.14 20:55

I think your theory is about as credible as Stephen Birch's theory.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Guest on 23.12.14 21:07

@aquila wrote:I think your theory is about as credible as Stephen Birch's theory.

Why? If the events happened as Dr Amaral believes - i.e., the accident happened that night and the resultant chaos was panicked cover-up - then the beach would be a very credible hiding place. Although I believe it would have been a temporary one. I can't imagine two trips would've been made, though, so no spade imo, more likely she was secreted somewhere quickly for that night only.

Just a theory also, one of many that are possible.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by roy rovers on 23.12.14 21:09

welcome I for one don't believe that she was alive between 4:30pm and 6pm on 3rd May so that's a bad start for your theory IMO.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by aquila on 23.12.14 21:11

Dee Coy wrote:
@aquila wrote:I think your theory is about as credible as Stephen Birch's theory.

Why? If the events happened as Dr Amaral believes - i.e., the accident happened that night and the resultant chaos was panicked cover-up - then the beach would be a very credible hiding place. Although I believe it would have been a temporary one. I can't imagine two trips would've been made, though, so no spade imo, more likely she was secreted somewhere quickly for that night only.

Just a theory also, one of many that are possible.
I don't have time to give a reason Dee Coy as I have to go and do something. I'll come back to you.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Khaleesi on 23.12.14 21:46

@NormanStebson wrote:
From what I understand, Madeleine was last seen by three independent witnesses between 4:30pm and 6pm on 3rd May. Therefore we have to assume that Madeleine was still alive at this time.

I wouldn't call David Payne or anyone else from the Tapas 7 an independent witness. Therefore, IMO, the last independent sighting of Madeleine would be by the nannies in creche. But somehow I don't trust Catriona Baker and the second nanny from the Mini Club, Emma Wilding, stated that:

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 16:45 as was customary.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA_WILDING.htm

That makes me unsure if Maddie indeed stayed in the creche till the high tea, or was signed out earlier.


There are no independent witnesses to confirm that Gerry was at the tapas restaurant between 9pm and 10pm.

Oh yes, there are the independent witnesses, unless you believe that the McTeam bribed the tapas staff. They of course are unable to give Gerald alibifor the whole period between 9 and 10 pm, but they saw him there. Jeronimo Salcedas, Joaquim Baptista, Ricardo Oliveira... You can check their statements on PJ Files.

Therefore I would suggest that around 9pm when Gerry went to the apartment to check on the children, he might have found the body and then rushed to a nearby location to dig a hole to hide the body. He might have been on his way to this location when Jez Wilkins saw him outside the apartment. But of course, where would Gerry get a spade at that time of night? It would be too difficult, dirty and time-consuming to have dug a hole in hard mud with his bare hands. It would probably also result in Gerry’s hands being cut and bruised during the process. The only suitable place to dig a hole quickly and with bare hands is on a sandy beach. It is very easy to make a deep hole in sand with bare hands, plus sand wipes off clothes and skin quite easily. The hole would need to be at least 3 feet deep to ensure the body is well hidden for the time being. This could be carried out within a period of about 30 minutes including the time it takes to get to and from the beach. Gerry was said to have been gone a long time when he went to check on the children at around 9pm, so he would have had ample time to get to the beach and dig a hole in the sand. The Smith family say they saw Gerry McCann carrying a child at around 9:50pm on the Rua da Escola Primária, and that he was heading towards the small sandy beach, just east of the overturned boats, which is 200 metres away from the Smith sighting.

The problem is that layer of sand is quite thin there. You see the sandy beaches in this area are all artificially made, as the natural beaches are rocky. The sand would not be deep enough to dig a grave there, even if it is a grave of small girl. Also the terrain surrounding the little beach (nasty rocks) would be too difficult to cross in the dark, while holding something in your arms.

I am pretty sure he hid her temporarily somewhere, just not on the small beach.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by ultimaThule on 23.12.14 22:06

Dee Coy wrote:
@aquila wrote:I think your theory is about as credible as Stephen Birch's theory.

Why? If the events happened as Dr Amaral believes - i.e., the accident happened that night and the resultant chaos was panicked cover-up - then the beach would be a very credible hiding place. Although I believe it would have been a temporary one. I can't imagine two trips would've been made, though, so no spade imo, more likely she was secreted somewhere quickly for that night only.

Just a theory also, one of many that are possible.

I agree, Dee.  If, as Dr Amaral would appear to believe, the child died in the early evening of 3 May it's entirely possible that, having no vehicle and no time to find a more permanent place of concealment, the body was initially buried on a sandy beach where, as I've said elsewhere, a depth of 3' would be sufficient to avoid detection by dogs other than EVRDs such as Eddie was.

Although it is situated close to the long swathe of sand west of the village, the natural instinct of the perpetrator(s) would be to conceal the body as far away as possible from the apartment somewhere on the other side of the promontory which separates the 'old town' from that of the relatively new build sprawl surrounding the Ocean Club.  

This scenario would of course make the Smithman sighting more credible than some hold it to be and would be a 'disaster' for anyone who was carrying a small pyjama clad corpse at a time when it could reasonably expected that residents and guests of Luz would be engaged indoors with their evening meals.

In addition, the whereabouts of the child's father between 9.30-10.30pm is uncertain, one of the group stated they were 'on the beach' with him in the early hours of the morning, and the mother of the child has written that she and her spouse were out and about in Luz as soon as it was light.

However, again imo, the last thing we need on this forum is yet another thread with a poll as it will inevitably develop into the usual bunfight whenever Smithman is mentioned and I find it curious that you've chosen to create one as your very first post, Norman.   Do you have a particular reason for having done so?

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 23.12.14 22:49

@Khaleesi wrote:
@NormanStebson wrote:
From what I understand, Madeleine was last seen by three independent witnesses between 4:30pm and 6pm on 3rd May. Therefore we have to assume that Madeleine was still alive at this time.

I wouldn't call David Payne or anyone else from the Tapas 7 an independent witness. Therefore, IMO, the last independent sighting of Madeleine would be by the nannies in creche. But somehow I don't trust Catriona Baker and the second nanny from the Mini Club, Emma Wilding, stated that:

Personally I don't believe any of them were independent or their statements credible. Therefore, the timeline needs to reverse somewhat to find the last truly independent witness.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by jeanmonroe on 23.12.14 23:18

NormanStebson asked:

Did Ge££y McCann bury Madeleine's body?
----------------------------------

Well, Ge££y & Hate CERTAINLY 'buried' the truth, didn't they?

So, 'burying' Madeleine's 'body', wouldn't be that hard for them, would it?

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by suzyjohnson on 24.12.14 1:22

I was going to say that I think it is possible that MM was buried underneath the sand. 

GM would not have needed to be on the beach for an hour between 9 and 10 pm but only needed to have placed MM there briefly because GM, I think in the company of David Payne, returned to the beach after she was reported missing and this would have given him loads of extra time, either before the police were informed, or during the night when he was out, or the early hours of the morning when GM was out with KM.

I suppose it would depend (assuming the parents to have been involved) on what exactly they were trying to cover up. If MM had suffered a serious head injury for example, it would not matter so much whether MM was well hidden, only that it needed to appear as though an abductor had caused it. It would be more difficult to explain away drugs in her system.

However the information about the beaches (provided above by Khaleesi) also needs to be taken into account. I didn't know that before.

One thing that have just thought of, and would be very interested to know the answer to if anyone knows the area, why (if indeed he did) GM went in the direction that would mean he would encounter the Smiths at 9.50 pm? If someone was was carrying a child who had had a fatal accident down to the beach (to buy them some time) and their starting point was apartment 5A, which way would they go? Why would they choose that direction (as someone said above, to get as far away as possible?) Why not any of the other choices?

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by XTC on 24.12.14 14:42

@suzyjohnson wrote:I was going to say that I think it is possible that MM was buried underneath the sand. 

GM would not have needed to be on the beach for an hour between 9 and 10 pm but only needed to have placed MM there briefly because GM, I think in the company of David Payne, returned to the beach after she was reported missing and this would have given him loads of extra time, either before the police were informed, or during the night when he was out, or the early hours of the morning when GM was out with KM.

I suppose it would depend (assuming the parents to have been involved) on what exactly they were trying to cover up. If MM had suffered a serious head injury for example, it would not matter so much whether MM was well hidden, only that it needed to appear as though an abductor had caused it. It would be more difficult to explain away drugs in her system.

However the information about the beaches (provided above by Khaleesi) also needs to be taken into account. I didn't know that before.

One thing that have just thought of, and would be very interested to know the answer to if anyone knows the area, why (if indeed he did) GM went in the direction that would mean he would encounter the Smiths at 9.50 pm? If someone was was carrying a child who had had a fatal accident down to the beach (to buy them some time) and their starting point was apartment 5A, which way would they go? Why would they choose that direction (as someone said above, to get as far away as possible?) Why not any of the other choices?Yes the
Yes these are all very good points you make.

The main thing is: if you bury a body ( even on a small beach ) and you need to recover it you'd better remember where you put it in the first place.

No stone unturned?

The problem with a ' whitewash ' for SY is the choosing of the method. Brush/paint pad/roller etc etc?

Have you ever painted a wall that had dark paint to cover? This is similar. Evidence yes but not enough to convict. You put one coat on and you can still see what's underneath. Two coats and still it's there.

The suspects are becoming layers of paint if you like and the discovery and revisiting of these people will not find Madeleine.

Of course if your remit is to ignore the so called Tapas 9 evidence then that's what will happen. No Madeleine will be found. Simple as that for me.

Logic is not something that I am used to but if the SY group are as savvy as is made out by the media in general let's look at two applications of this.

The finding of Madeleine's DNA:

No independent verification of Madeleine's DNA exists in 5a.

The Parental Control ( 19 markers from the parents ) matches the Rothley pillowcase. It does not match the twins. Good.

Therefore by deduction the Rothley pillowcase MUST be Madeleine. Excellent.

Eddie the cadaver scent dog:

Eddie detects cadaver scent in 5a/and on various items ( including Cuddle cat - washed? ) and in the Scenic.

The PJ say no-one  has died in 5a. No-one had definitely died in the Scenic.

No dead bodies were reported in PdL in the period of Madeleine's missingness.

By deduction therefore ( using the same logic as the DNA deduction) the the cadaver scent MUST be Madeleine.

Yet SY still plough a strange furrow. A search for suspects rather than a search for Madeleine.

There are many theories as to what happened and the vast majority are as valid as my own.


Personally I think that what happened was a tragedy ( a cry for help?) and it may have happened at around 5.30 pm on.

The discovery of the consequences was possibly made by a friend who alerted the other friends to what had happened.

Unfortunately the others survived and one didn't.

The cover up evolved from there.

The removal was to avoid a post mortem. Otherwise why remove a body?

Since then it has been a process of avoiding embarassment and momentary weakness.

No moralising no judgement nothing about what occurred. What happened happened.

The back up of friends is understandable but the thing has gone too far.

Whomever was involved ought to state what happened .

If not this will go on forever.

They may be friends but a young girl requires and deserves respect.

She is findable if someone tells the tale.

All opinion of course.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by phil_burton on 24.12.14 19:58

I don't think she was buried on the evening of the 3rd, as the OP points out it would require tools and a good deal of planning, not to mention how time consuming it would be.

I think that initially she was placed in a temporary hiding place - a garage, a fridge in an old out building - who knows, somewhere where you wouldn't look for what was purportedly a living person at the time. Remember, according to K&G, she was alive when taken, and the search was for a living child.

I think whatever happened, happened in the presence of David Payne earlier in the day. The discrepancies around the tennis game were odd. What followed that evening was a charade, a show that was contrived.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone discuss whether the night out was setup deliberately to provide a window of opportunity for a kidnapper. The timings were there just to illustrate the parents innocence and to exonerate the families.

Think about it, it would give them a few hours to clean up, plan their next move and they successfully threw all the initial helpers off the scent, which bought them more time.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by MRNOODLES on 29.12.14 12:08

@roy rovers wrote:welcome I for one don't believe that she was alive between 4:30pm and 6pm on 3rd May so that's a bad start for your theory IMO.

Me too, IMO the Mccanns wants us to think she was alive then.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Ayniia on 22.01.15 18:29

@ultimaThule wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:
@aquila wrote:I think your theory is about as credible as Stephen Birch's theory.

Why? If the events happened as Dr Amaral believes - i.e., the accident happened that night and the resultant chaos was panicked cover-up - then the beach would be a very credible hiding place. Although I believe it would have been a temporary one. I can't imagine two trips would've been made, though, so no spade imo, more likely she was secreted somewhere quickly for that night only.

Just a theory also, one of many that are possible.

I agree, Dee.  If, as Dr Amaral would appear to believe, the child died in the early evening of 3 May ...?

A bit off topic, sorry , I've said this before, Mr. Amaral stated that in the book because he was taking information from the files and investigation available at the time. He wasn't speculating about anything else. Since then I heard him putting forward some other ideas and IMHO I don't think he still believes that "independent sighting" in the early evening of 3 May 2007. Again this is just my opinion based on things Mr. Amaral said, I don't remember him saying specifically that but I know for sure he hinted at the possibility.
Of course my opinion on that subject is also biased because I don't believe Madeleine was still alive on the 3rd.

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What happened to Madeleine McCann?

Post by G-Unit on 22.01.15 19:38

My theory is that Madeleine died after 6.30 on May 3rd. Perhaps David Payne did see her. He left and Kate then decided to have a quick shower, and Madeleine took the opportunity to go out of the patio door to see where her Daddy was. She either fell down the steps or over the wall. Gerry was coming back just as Kate came dashing out to see where Madeleine was. They found her. One of them picked her up dashed behind the sofa with her so the twins couldn't see and start screaming. The other one ushered the twins into the bedroom. This explains the blood behind the sofa, and even the splattering, possibly. 


They now have from 7pm to 8.30pm to grieve, move the body into the bedroom, clean up and decide for whatever reason that they cannot report the death. Possibly sedation in the milk as Gerry really doesn't like questions about sedation. They don't tell anyone else of their plan. 


Gerry collected Madeleine from the bedroom at 9ish, and maybe he was going to go along the path and through the gap between Blocks 4 and 5. Suddenly he heard Jeremy coming. As it makes sense for Jeremy to cut through that way to get to Block 4, Gerry puts Madeleine down in the garden (where Eddie was interested), meets Jeremy and keeps him talking. Perhaps he blocked the entry to the path and Jeremy wandered away and went up the road and turned left instead of pushing past to go down the path. Jane Tanner could have walked behind Jeremy because the two men were talking intently, so they may not have seen her. She may have actually seen someone carrying a child. 


Once Jeremy had gone, Gerry was free to carry on, making sure when he exited the path between blocks 4 and 5 that Jeremy was safely in Block 4. Where he took her then is anyone's guess.


When the alarm was raised the others believed what they were told, why would they not? The men and Fiona Payne ran off and searched. Later they all phoned anyone they could think of because they weren't convinced that the police were closing roads, airports etc. The timeline was created as they were all guilty of leaving their children. It was done so quickly that they  made a mistake and left little or no time for an abductor or burglar to do his evil deed.


My two weak links are a) the Smith sighting. If that was Gerry McCann I have no idea why the others didn't say he was missing between 9.30pm and 10pm. I can only suggest that the Smiths saw him earlier or it was an innocent child carrier or they lied for Robert Murat or whatever? My other weak link is that David Payne said Madeleine was dressed in white. In fact she was either wearing that T Shirt or her pyjamas. Mind you, the twins were not in white either, so we can probably disregard his description of their clothing. Any criticisms welcome, this is only a theory.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Ayniia on 22.01.15 21:44

@G-Unit wrote:My theory is that Madeleine died after 6.30 on May 3rd.

But if that's so ,how do you explain all the weird things that happened starting on the 30th? RM sudden flight, the creche records, the phone calls, the Crying Ms. Fenn heard on the 1st...?

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by stumo on 22.01.15 21:52

@NormanStebson wrote:.

From what I understand, Madeleine was last seen by three independent witnesses between 4:30pm and 6pm on 3rd May. 



I got this far ( i've not read the rest of your theory) but who are the three independent witnesses?

Any of the Tapas crew don't count........ i've not seen any other accounts, please elaborate....

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by JohnyT on 22.01.15 22:22

@G-Unit wrote:My theory is that Madeleine died after 6.30 on May 3rd. Perhaps David Payne did see her. He left and Kate then decided to have a quick shower, and Madeleine took the opportunity to go out of the patio door to see where her Daddy was. She either fell down the steps or over the wall. Gerry was coming back just as Kate came dashing out to see where Madeleine was. They found her. One of them picked her up dashed behind the sofa with her so the twins couldn't see and start screaming. The other one ushered the twins into the bedroom. This explains the blood behind the sofa, and even the splattering, possibly. 


They now have from 7pm to 8.30pm to grieve, move the body into the bedroom, clean up and decide for whatever reason that they cannot report the death. Possibly sedation in the milk as Gerry really doesn't like questions about sedation. They don't tell anyone else of their plan. 


Gerry collected Madeleine from the bedroom at 9ish, and maybe he was going to go along the path and through the gap between Blocks 4 and 5. Suddenly he heard Jeremy coming. As it makes sense for Jeremy to cut through that way to get to Block 4, Gerry puts Madeleine down in the garden (where Eddie was interested), meets Jeremy and keeps him talking. Perhaps he blocked the entry to the path and Jeremy wandered away and went up the road and turned left instead of pushing past to go down the path. Jane Tanner could have walked behind Jeremy because the two men were talking intently, so they may not have seen her. She may have actually seen someone carrying a child. 


Once Jeremy had gone, Gerry was free to carry on, making sure when he exited the path between blocks 4 and 5 that Jeremy was safely in Block 4. Where he took her then is anyone's guess.


When the alarm was raised the others believed what they were told, why would they not? The men and Fiona Payne ran off and searched. Later they all phoned anyone they could think of because they weren't convinced that the police were closing roads, airports etc. The timeline was created as they were all guilty of leaving their children. It was done so quickly that they  made a mistake and left little or no time for an abductor or burglar to do his evil deed.


My two weak links are a) the Smith sighting. If that was Gerry McCann I have no idea why the others didn't say he was missing between 9.30pm and 10pm. I can only suggest that the Smiths saw him earlier or it was an innocent child carrier or they lied for Robert Murat or whatever? My other weak link is that David Payne said Madeleine was dressed in white. In fact she was either wearing that T Shirt or her pyjamas. Mind you, the twins were not in white either, so we can probably disregard his description of their clothing. Any criticisms welcome, this is only a theory.
So......your child dies in an accident and you go to all these lengths to cover it up? Surely people would be more sympathetic with them about the accident?
Sorry, not for me and no, I don't have a theory as it all seems so confusing.
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What happened to Madeleine McCann?

Post by G-Unit on 22.01.15 22:46

@Ayniia wrote:
@G-Unit wrote:My theory is that Madeleine died after 6.30 on May 3rd.

But if that's so ,how do you explain all the weird things that happened starting on the 30th? RM sudden flight, the creche records, the phone calls, the Crying Ms. Fenn heard on the 1st...?
Thanks for the comments, they will make me think. I don't know why Murat flew back. It could have been related or not, I suppose. I have left him out as I think suspicion only fell on him due to people pointing at him - Lori Campbell and three of the McCann's friends.

The creche records were a complete mess, and I imagine that there were harsh words spoken to the nanny's about that but why would any of them lie for the McCanns? They all searched too. 

I have tried to look at phone calls, but it's a big subject and I must admit I haven't really got a handle on it. Do any of the phone records make my theory impossible do you know? 

Mrs Fenn may well have heard crying because it's possible that the checking on the children was very lax all week. It is also possible that someone was in the apartment with Madeleine who should not have been there, which may be another reason to keep an accident quiet. 

All just my theory, of course. I worked to the KISS principle (keep it short & simple)

JohnyT; I can only explain the cover up by suggesting either sedation which would have shown up on postmortem, or abuse ditto.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by JohnyT on 22.01.15 22:51

@G-Unit wrote:
@Ayniia wrote:
@G-Unit wrote:My theory is that Madeleine died after 6.30 on May 3rd.

But if that's so ,how do you explain all the weird things that happened starting on the 30th? RM sudden flight, the creche records, the phone calls, the Crying Ms. Fenn heard on the 1st...?
Thanks for the comments, they will make me think. I don't know why Murat flew back. It could have been related or not, I suppose. I have left him out as I think suspicion only fell on him due to people pointing at him - Lori Campbell and three of the McCann's friends.

The creche records were a complete mess, and I imagine that there were harsh words spoken to the nanny's about that but why would any of them lie for the McCanns? They all searched too. 

I have tried to look at phone calls, but it's a big subject and I must admit I haven't really got a handle on it. Do any of the phone records make my theory impossible do you know? 

Mrs Fenn may well have heard crying because it's possible that the checking on the children was very lax all week. It is also possible that someone was in the apartment with Madeleine who should not have been there, which may be another reason to keep an accident quiet. 

All just my theory, of course. I worked to the KISS principle (keep it short & simple)

JohnyT; I can only explain the cover up by suggesting either sedation which would have shown up on postmortem, or abuse ditto.
@G-Unit.....yep I understand what you mean now re. the alleged reason for a possible cover-up.
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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Khaleesi on 22.01.15 23:27

@G-Unit wrote:My theory is that Madeleine died after 6.30 on May 3rd. Perhaps David Payne did see her. He left and Kate then decided to have a quick shower, and Madeleine took the opportunity to go out of the patio door to see where her Daddy was. She either fell down the steps or over the wall. Gerry was coming back just as Kate came dashing out to see where Madeleine was. They found her. One of them picked her up dashed behind the sofa with her so the twins couldn't see and start screaming. The other one ushered the twins into the bedroom. This explains the blood behind the sofa, and even the splattering, possibly. 

Nice theory, there is a hole in it though. You see it was still daylight, there were the people in the tapas bar in the play area, the people were walking on the streets and most probably also in the passage between the blocks 4&5 and the Ocean Club wall. And none of them saw a child falling down? Nobody saw the little body in the garden,nobody noticed the parents sprinting down and then returning up the stairs with little, profusely bleeding body in their arms? Really?

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What happened to Madeleine McCann?

Post by G-Unit on 23.01.15 0:30

@Khaleesi wrote:
@G-Unit wrote:My theory is that Madeleine died after 6.30 on May 3rd. Perhaps David Payne did see her. He left and Kate then decided to have a quick shower, and Madeleine took the opportunity to go out of the patio door to see where her Daddy was. She either fell down the steps or over the wall. Gerry was coming back just as Kate came dashing out to see where Madeleine was. They found her. One of them picked her up dashed behind the sofa with her so the twins couldn't see and start screaming. The other one ushered the twins into the bedroom. This explains the blood behind the sofa, and even the splattering, possibly. 

Nice theory, there is a hole in it though. You see it was still daylight, there were the people in the tapas bar in the play area, the people were walking on the streets and most probably also in the passage between the blocks 4&5 and the Ocean Club wall. And none of them saw a child falling down? Nobody saw the little body in the garden,nobody noticed the parents sprinting down and then returning up the stairs with little, profusely bleeding body in their arms? Really?
I was doing so well too I thought lol. OK, maybe she fell down the steps. Perhaps David Payne left the stair gate open and she tripped over the bit at the bottom that a lot of them have. She would be hurrying as she knew she was supposed to stay inside - Kate probably said 'stay there' while she showered. She would not have been visible to anyone until she landed on the steps and for anyone to see her on the steps they would have to be in the street and look directly through the gate. If her Dad arrived back from tennis and saw her, his instinct would likely be to scoop her up and run up the steps to the apartment with her to assess the damage. That would have been very fast as he would panic, maybe fast enough that no-one would look too hard - just someone running up the steps to his apartment. All my theory only and criticisms welcome to sharpen my brain. Thanks folks for the comments.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by woodforthetrees on 23.01.15 10:18

My theory options:

IMO, re both theories... 

- Madeleine left alone (in an un-checked sense) in the apartment/bedroom from approx 4.30pm
- No checking was going on by any of the tapas group the entire evening, hence the scrambled 'cover your ar5es rota' scribbled down and pact of silence since, plus 
- Madeleine's body was removed from the apartment at approximately 9.15 (tanner sighting being genuine but due to the faded light and distance, it is no use)
- The body was temporarily stored in a vacant/part built building until the initial searches had died down
- Smith sighting has been given credibility by SY to protect the McCanns and Tapas group by moving the timeline further out, thus allowing for some checking and just enough time for cadaver scent to start being produced in the apartment. 
- IMO the Smith sighting is a red herring, introduced by the Smiths to help clear Murat
- The McCanns were aware right from the first 48hrs that she was dead, regardless of who took her, but have to maintain she is alive to stay in the clear for any neglect charges and get money for the fund.
- SY and the PJ have considerably more files/evidence than the PII files released to the public and know a lot more than they let on.


Theory a)

A lone paedo entered the apartment between 5pm and 8pm, committed a horrific act and unfortunately Madeleine died. a panic ensued and the body was moved around the apartment (either in a bid to make it look like an accident, or whilst looking for something to wrap her up in), hence the cadaver scent. A quick clean up was done and the body passed/pushed out of the window to assist with not being seen. Body then taken away and stored in a local building.
Cadaver scent in the hire car was due to cross contamination from scent picked up/transferred to items from contact in the apartment.

Theory b)

Madeleine died in the apartment either by overdose of sleeping aid or by falling. Neither of the parents were actually checking the kids from 6pm and were more concerned about getting ready to go out. No checking was actually being done throughout the evening as scribbled on the rota. Gerry discovered the accident at around 9pm and panicked, then quickly wrapped her up and took her to a temporary storage place (vacant building) and returned back to the group to continue the evening. Kate raised the alarm at 10pm and only became aware of Gerrys actions over the next few days when being told either out jogging or walking on the beach.
Cadaver scent in the car was from later disposing of Madeleine's body. 

Based on the fact that the McCanns are not arguidos or suspects, SY are going with a lone paedo theory and sticking to it.

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What happened to Madeleine McCann?

Post by G-Unit on 23.01.15 12:06

@woodforthetrees wrote:My theory options:

IMO, re both theories... 

- Madeleine left alone (in an un-checked sense) in the apartment/bedroom from approx 4.30pm
- No checking was going on by any of the tapas group the entire evening, hence the scrambled 'cover your ar5es rota' scribbled down and pact of silence since, plus 
- Madeleine's body was removed from the apartment at approximately 9.15 (tanner sighting being genuine but due to the faded light and distance, it is no use)
- The body was temporarily stored in a vacant/part built building until the initial searches had died down
- Smith sighting has been given credibility by SY to protect the McCanns and Tapas group by moving the timeline further out, thus allowing for some checking and just enough time for cadaver scent to start being produced in the apartment. 
- IMO the Smith sighting is a red herring, introduced by the Smiths to help clear Murat
- The McCanns were aware right from the first 48hrs that she was dead, regardless of who took her, but have to maintain she is alive to stay in the clear for any neglect charges and get money for the fund.
- SY and the PJ have considerably more files/evidence than the PII files released to the public and know a lot more than they let on.


Theory a)

A lone paedo entered the apartment between 5pm and 8pm, committed a horrific act and unfortunately Madeleine died. a panic ensued and the body was moved around the apartment (either in a bid to make it look like an accident, or whilst looking for something to wrap her up in), hence the cadaver scent. Where were the parents at this time? Kate's clothes had cadaver scent. A quick clean up was done and the body passed/pushed out of the window to assist with not being seen. Body then taken away and stored in a local building.
Cadaver scent in the hire car was due to cross contamination from scent picked up/transferred to items from contact in the apartment. I agree, It's hard to imagine keeping a body as has been suggested.
Theory b)

Madeleine died in the apartment either by overdose of sleeping aid or by falling. Neither of the parents were actually checking the kids from 6pm and were more concerned about getting ready to go out. Where the children in bed at 6pm then? Do you think Gerry went to
tennis between 6pm and 7pm? Did Madeleine fall behind the sofa without either of them noticing? 
No checking was actually being done throughout the evening as scribbled on the rota. I agree, any checking was much less frequent than the timeline. Gerry discovered the accident at around 9pm and panicked, then quickly wrapped her up and took her to a temporary storage place (vacant building) and returned back to the group to continue the evening. Even if she fell, then, there was still a reason why they had to get rid of the body (sedation or abuse) Kate raised the alarm at 10pm and only became aware of Gerrys actions over the next few days when being told either out jogging or walking on the beach. Are you saying Kate didn't know Madeleine was dead? Did Gerry open the window then, or was the window never opened? 
Cadaver scent in the car was from later disposing of Madeleine's body. I would think this was only possible if they had help, seems very risky to have her around somewhere for so long. The confidence they showed in starting the appeal suggests that they felt safe that she wasn't going to be found any time soon, if at all.

Based on the fact that the McCanns are not arguidos or suspects, SY are going with a lone paedo theory and sticking to it.  It will be difficult to fit him/her into the timeline without branding the Tapas 9 as liars do you think? It's not just a case of those physically checking the apartment, it's those who were around outside. Jane Tanner twice (9.15 and 9.45) Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien (9.30 - 9.40) Russell O'Brien (9.50) Jeremy Wilkins (9.15). Also, the cadaverine alerted to by Eddie. I find Grimes' explanation of what the dogs do difficult to understand. He seems to be saying that Eddie alerts to cadaverine and blood. There was blood behind the sofa (Keela confirmed this), but not in the bedroom, so was Eddie definately alerting to cadaverine in the bedroom and only possibly in the living room? I'm not absolutely clear on that. Why would a paedo keep moving her round the apartment? He/she must have been confident that no-one was going to walk in or he was known to the parents and was there with their permission? How will they explain the cadaverine on Kate's clothes and the toy?
We are not so far apart in our theories it seems. Just a few thoughts in red above.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Guest on 23.01.15 12:24

@G-Unit wrote:
@woodforthetrees wrote:My theory options:

IMO, re both theories... 

- Madeleine left alone (in an un-checked sense) in the apartment/bedroom from approx 4.30pm
- No checking was going on by any of the tapas group the entire evening, hence the scrambled 'cover your ar5es rota' scribbled down and pact of silence since, plus 
- Madeleine's body was removed from the apartment at approximately 9.15 (tanner sighting being genuine but due to the faded light and distance, it is no use)
- The body was temporarily stored in a vacant/part built building until the initial searches had died down
- Smith sighting has been given credibility by SY to protect the McCanns and Tapas group by moving the timeline further out, thus allowing for some checking and just enough time for cadaver scent to start being produced in the apartment. 
- IMO the Smith sighting is a red herring, introduced by the Smiths to help clear Murat
- The McCanns were aware right from the first 48hrs that she was dead, regardless of who took her, but have to maintain she is alive to stay in the clear for any neglect charges and get money for the fund.
- SY and the PJ have considerably more files/evidence than the PII files released to the public and know a lot more than they let on.


Theory a)

A lone paedo entered the apartment between 5pm and 8pm, committed a horrific act and unfortunately Madeleine died. a panic ensued and the body was moved around the apartment (either in a bid to make it look like an accident, or whilst looking for something to wrap her up in), hence the cadaver scent. Where were the parents at this time? Kate's clothes had cadaver scent. A quick clean up was done and the body passed/pushed out of the window to assist with not being seen. Body then taken away and stored in a local building.
Cadaver scent in the hire car was due to cross contamination from scent picked up/transferred to items from contact in the apartment. I agree, It's hard to imagine keeping a body as has been suggested.
Theory b)

Madeleine died in the apartment either by overdose of sleeping aid or by falling. Neither of the parents were actually checking the kids from 6pm and were more concerned about getting ready to go out. Where the children in bed at 6pm then? Do you think Gerry went to
tennis between 6pm and 7pm? Did Madeleine fall behind the sofa without either of them noticing? 
No checking was actually being done throughout the evening as scribbled on the rota. I agree, any checking was much less frequent than the timeline. Gerry discovered the accident at around 9pm and panicked, then quickly wrapped her up and took her to a temporary storage place (vacant building) and returned back to the group to continue the evening. Even if she fell, then, there was still a reason why they had to get rid of the body (sedation or abuse) Kate raised the alarm at 10pm and only became aware of Gerrys actions over the next few days when being told either out jogging or walking on the beach. Are you saying Kate didn't know Madeleine was dead? Did Gerry open the window then, or was the window never opened? 
Cadaver scent in the car was from later disposing of Madeleine's body. I would think this was only possible if they had help, seems very risky to have her around somewhere for so long. The confidence they showed in starting the appeal suggests that they felt safe that she wasn't going to be found any time soon, if at all.

Based on the fact that the McCanns are not arguidos or suspects, SY are going with a lone paedo theory and sticking to it.  It will be difficult to fit him/her into the timeline without branding the Tapas 9 as liars do you think? It's not just a case of those physically checking the apartment, it's those who were around outside. Jane Tanner twice (9.15 and 9.45) Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien (9.30 - 9.40) Russell O'Brien (9.50) Jeremy Wilkins (9.15). Also, the cadaverine alerted to by Eddie. I find Grimes' explanation of what the dogs do difficult to understand. He seems to be saying that Eddie alerts to cadaverine and blood. There was blood behind the sofa (Keela confirmed this), but not in the bedroom, so was Eddie definately alerting to cadaverine in the bedroom and only possibly in the living room? I'm not absolutely clear on that[/green]. Why would a paedo keep moving her round the apartment? He/she must have been confident that no-one was going to walk in or he was known to the parents and was there with their permission? How will they explain the cadaverine on Kate's clothes and the toy?
[color]

We are not so far apart in our theories it seems. Just a few thoughts in red above.
[/color]
[color]

The highlighted part in green,my understanding is that eddie does indeed alert to cadaver and blood,but keela only alerts to blood,so if eddie only alerted in one place that keela didn't alert there,then it would then be more than likely it was cadaver being alerted to.


[/color]

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