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What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

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Did Gerry McCann bury Madeleine's body?

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What happened to Madeleine McCann?

Post by G-Unit on 23.01.15 12:39

Thanks, that's how I read what he said about the dogs, but i wasn't sure.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Guest on 23.01.15 12:42

@G-Unit wrote:Thanks, that's how I read what he said about the dogs, but i wasn't sure.
I'm no expert just my take.(what happened with the colour in my previous post lord knows.)

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Ayniia on 23.01.15 12:45

@G-Unit wrote:
All just my theory, of course. I worked to the KISS principle (keep it short & simple)

With all due respect G  , there's nothing short and simple about this case. It's not as simple as GM burried her or not. Let alone in the beach- Think about it , what do people /children/dogs do at the beach? they dig,they play in the sand . And after the alarm was raised , so many people were on the streets , it wouldn't be feasible to leave her in a place someone could find her. ALL IMO.

@Khaleesi wrote:The problem is that layer of sand is quite thin there. You see the sandy beaches in this area are all artificially made, as the natural beaches are rocky. The sand would not be deep enough to dig a grave there, even if it is a grave of small girl.

And I completely agree with Khaleesi . I just can't see how they could find a body at 6:30 pm and decide do hide it, go bury it in the beach , meanwhile maintaining enough composture to go to the Tapas appointemente and "act normal". Again all IMHO.

ETA:
WMD wrote:
The highlighted part in green,my understanding is that eddie does indeed alert to cadaver and blood,but keela only alerts to blood,so if eddie only alerted in one place that keela didn't alert there,then it would then be more than likely it was cadaver being alerted to.

IIRC Eddie gave different signs for blood or cadaver , so the handler knew what he was alerting to.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Guest on 23.01.15 12:54

@Ayniia wrote:
@G-Unit wrote:
All just my theory, of course. I worked to the KISS principle (keep it short & simple)

With all due respect G  , there's nothing short and simple about this case. It's not as simple as GM burried her or not. Let alone in the beach- Think about it , what do people /children/dogs do at the beach? they dig,they play in the sand . And after the alarm was raised , so many people were on the streets , it wouldn't be feasible to leave her in a place someone could find her. ALL IMO.

@Khaleesi wrote:The problem is that layer of sand is quite thin there. You see the sandy beaches in this area are all artificially made, as the natural beaches are rocky. The sand would not be deep enough to dig a grave there, even if it is a grave of small girl.

And I completely agree with Khaleesi . I just can't see how they could find a body at 6:30 pm and decide do hide it, go bury it in the beach , meanwhile maintaining enough composture to go to the Tapas appointemente and "act normal". Again all IMHO.

ETA:
WMD wrote:
The highlighted part in green,my understanding is that eddie does indeed alert to cadaver and blood,but keela only alerts to blood,so if eddie only alerted in one place that keela didn't alert there,then it would then be more than likely it was cadaver being alerted to.

IIRC Eddie gave different signs for blood or cadaver , so the handler knew what he was alerting to.
Why the use of two dogs then?

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Ayniia on 23.01.15 13:01

WMD wrote:
Why the use of two dogs then?

To be sure. They worked as a team. Keela is trained in finding blood and Eddie was trained more to find cadavers but also could detect anoter scents, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
ETA:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

"Keela: The 16-month-old springer spaniel can sniff out the smallest samples of human blood - even after items have been cleaned or washed many times.
Eddie is a "victim recovery dog" who can detect blood and human remains."

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Guest on 23.01.15 13:04

@Ayniia wrote:
WMD wrote:
Why the use of two dogs then?

To be sure. They worked as a team. Keela is trained in finding blood and Eddie was trained more to find cadavers but also could detect anoter scents, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Doesn't really matter,the dogs alerted.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by woodforthetrees on 23.01.15 13:51

@G-Unit wrote:
@woodforthetrees wrote:My theory options:

IMO, re both theories... 

- Madeleine left alone (in an un-checked sense) in the apartment/bedroom from approx 4.30pm
- No checking was going on by any of the tapas group the entire evening, hence the scrambled 'cover your ar5es rota' scribbled down and pact of silence since, plus 
- Madeleine's body was removed from the apartment at approximately 9.15 (tanner sighting being genuine but due to the faded light and distance, it is no use)
- The body was temporarily stored in a vacant/part built building until the initial searches had died down
- Smith sighting has been given credibility by SY to protect the McCanns and Tapas group by moving the timeline further out, thus allowing for some checking and just enough time for cadaver scent to start being produced in the apartment. 
- IMO the Smith sighting is a red herring, introduced by the Smiths to help clear Murat
- The McCanns were aware right from the first 48hrs that she was dead, regardless of who took her, but have to maintain she is alive to stay in the clear for any neglect charges and get money for the fund.
- SY and the PJ have considerably more files/evidence than the PII files released to the public and know a lot more than they let on.


Theory a)

A lone paedo entered the apartment between 5pm and 8pm, committed a horrific act and unfortunately Madeleine died. a panic ensued and the body was moved around the apartment (either in a bid to make it look like an accident, or whilst looking for something to wrap her up in), hence the cadaver scent. Where were the parents at this time? Kate's clothes had cadaver scent. IMO the parents were out and about the complex between 4-7 then out by more like 7.30 at the latest. The cadaver scent stays on items for anything up to a year so i predict that the cadaver scent was transferred onto Kates clothes and other items post incident (if going with my theory b) A quick clean up was done and the body passed/pushed out of the window to assist with not being seen. Body then taken away and stored in a local building.
Cadaver scent in the hire car was due to cross contamination from scent picked up/transferred to items from contact in the apartment. I agree, It's hard to imagine keeping a body as has been suggested. True, although some narcissists are capable of such plans and actions, so not entirely unbelievable. However, what i find rather hard to comprehend is the planning and movement of the body at a later date with so much media and law enforcement presence. IMO this is a big issue as they were being watched pretty much around the clock.
 

Theory b)

Madeleine died in the apartment either by overdose of sleeping aid or by falling. Neither of the parents were actually checking the kids from 6pm and were more concerned about getting ready to go out. Where the children in bed at 6pm then? I presume so, with something to help them sleep no doubt, can't have the little blighters ruining their evening out by screaming as they get ready can they!  Do you think Gerry went to tennis between 6pm and 7pm? Possibly. Either way, he wasn't in the apartment and if he returned at any point, he would've quickly got changed and gone back out to the tapas bar  Did Madeleine fall behind the sofa without either of them noticing? I suspect so, hence them not noticing or raising the alarm early on and also explains how cadaver scent had time to develop  No checking was actually being done throughout the evening as scribbled on the rota. I agree, any checking was much less frequent than the timeline. Gerry discovered the accident at around 9pm and panicked, then quickly wrapped her up and took her to a temporary storage place (vacant building) and returned back to the group to continue the evening. Even if she fell, then, there was still a reason why they had to get rid of the body (sedation or abuse) I think more like they knew they had a possibility of being charged with death by neglect and being doctors, would know that a good estimate about the time of death would be evident when paramedics arrived would lead to questions as to 'why did it take you so long to notify us and what time did you actually discover her?" Kate raised the alarm at 10pm and only became aware of Gerrys actions over the next few days when being told either out jogging or walking on the beach. Are you saying Kate didn't know Madeleine was dead? Did Gerry open the window then, or was the window never opened? I think the window was never opened in this theory, only afterwards opened from the inside by Kate when they were pushing their "shutters smashed" blurb
Cadaver scent in the car was from later disposing of Madeleine's body. I would think this was only possible if they had help, seems very risky to have her around somewhere for so long. The confidence they showed in starting the appeal suggests that they felt safe that she wasn't going to be found any time soon, if at all. Not necessarily. They were informed very very early on that the chances of her being recovered were extremely slim, if at all

Based on the fact that the McCanns are not arguidos or suspects, SY are going with a lone paedo theory and sticking to it.  It will be difficult to fit him/her into the timeline without branding the Tapas 9 as liars do you think? Exactly, which is why the smith sighting has been promoted, it means SY can continue with their paedo search and also make the timelime fit a bit better for all who have given statements  It's not just a case of those physically checking the apartment, it's those who were around outside. Jane Tanner twice (9.15 and 9.45) Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien (9.30 - 9.40) Russell O'Brien (9.50) Jeremy Wilkins (9.15). The Tapas had to all say they were checking the kids and returning back to the apartments on a regular basis to show that non of them were sedating/leaving their children. I'm sure Gerry made it very clear to them "if we go down for neglect, we all go down", hence the pact of silence afterwards. I also think the Tanner sighting is genuine and the crecheman rubbish was just to add credit to smithman to protect Gerry etc,  Also, the cadaverine alerted to by Eddie. I find Grimes' explanation of what the dogs do difficult to understand. He seems to be saying that Eddie alerts to cadaverine and blood. There was blood behind the sofa (Keela confirmed this), but not in the bedroom, so was Eddie definately alerting to cadaverine in the bedroom and only possibly in the living room? I'm not absolutely clear on that. 2 dogs, one specialises in blood, the other cadaver Why would a paedo keep moving her round the apartment? Few reasons...(sorry if this one makes people feel a bit nauseous) performing acts on a deceased child for kicks, panic trying to stage an accident scene, wanting to keep the body witht hem as they look for something to use to cover it, or somewhere to hide it (like a cupboard), who knows what the excact reason is. It might be that the body was not moved about, but the person in contact witht he body moved around the apartment transfering cadaver scent.  He/she must have been confident that no-one was going to walk in or he was known to the parents and was there with their permission? If they had been watching their evening patterns, and knew they weren't actually checking on them at all, i would assume they would be very confident they have a window of opportunity of at least 3hrs to play with, without someone coming back. How will they explain the cadaverine on Kate's clothes and the toy? Transferred/contaminated when initially searching/sitting, walking, touching things in the apartment, before it was declared a crime scene 
We are not so far apart in our theories it seems. Just a few thoughts in red above.


Thanks for the input G-Unit, i've put a few more comments in blue where i can to try and answer or add clarity to the best of my knowledge/understanding..

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What happened to Madeleine McCann?

Post by G-Unit on 23.01.15 15:04

WMD wrote:
@Ayniia wrote:
@G-Unit wrote:
All just my theory, of course. I worked to the KISS principle (keep it short & simple)

With all due respect G  , there's nothing short and simple about this case. It's not as simple as GM burried her or not. Let alone in the beach- Think about it , what do people /children/dogs do at the beach? they dig,they play in the sand . And after the alarm was raised , so many people were on the streets , it wouldn't be feasible to leave her in a place someone could find her. ALL IMO.
What I meant was that I am ignoring all the other theories about something happening earlier in the week, substitutes etc. The case is not simple, I agree. I have no idea where any body might have gone either. I never said beach I think?
@Khaleesi wrote:The problem is that layer of sand is quite thin there. You see the sandy beaches in this area are all artificially made, as the natural beaches are rocky. The sand would not be deep enough to dig a grave there, even if it is a grave of small girl.

And I completely agree with Khaleesi . I just can't see how they could find a body at 6:30 pm and decide do hide it, go bury it in the beach , meanwhile maintaining enough composture to go to the Tapas appointemente and "act normal". Again all IMHO.
It certainly seems utterly incredible I agree, and not something I could do for sure. The personalities of those involved as demonstrated since, however, could make this possible IMO. The McCanns have consistently refused to acknowledge that they did wrong by leaving their children. They have referred to 'the situation that Madeleine found herself in' to which you could, if you wanted to, add 'when she ran out of the apartment and fell' making it her own fault, in effect. They have said 'if she died accidentally when we weren't there how would that be our fault'. Kate prepared the ground on Thursday evening by mentioning the unlocked door and the Wednesday night crying. They were fighting for their reputations and their lifestyle. Gerry said 'It's a disaster', and it would have been if their daughter's body showed signs of sedation or abuse. Finally, they did not search and they mentioned abduction immediately. 

All IMO naturally

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Ayniia on 23.01.15 16:07

@G-Unit wrote:
WMD wrote:
@Ayniia wrote:
@G-Unit wrote:
All just my theory, of course. I worked to the KISS principle (keep it short & simple)

With all due respect G  , there's nothing short and simple about this case. It's not as simple as GM burried her or not. Let alone in the beach- Think about it , what do people /children/dogs do at the beach? they dig,they play in the sand . And after the alarm was raised , so many people were on the streets , it wouldn't be feasible to leave her in a place someone could find her. ALL IMO.
What I meant was that I am ignoring all the other theories about something happening earlier in the week, substitutes etc. The case is not simple, I agree. I have no idea where any body might have gone either. I never said beach I think?You're right , you never said beach, I apologize. But let's not forget that the rest of the soil around is very very hard, so much that they had to use machines in the latest diggings
@Khaleesi wrote:The problem is that layer of sand is quite thin there. You see the sandy beaches in this area are all artificially made, as the natural beaches are rocky. The sand would not be deep enough to dig a grave there, even if it is a grave of small girl.

And I completely agree with Khaleesi . I just can't see how they could find a body at 6:30 pm and decide do hide it, go bury it in the beach , meanwhile maintaining enough composture to go to the Tapas appointemente and "act normal". Again all IMHO.
It certainly seems utterly incredible I agree, and not something I could do for sure. The personalities of those involved as demonstrated since, however, could make this possible IMO. The McCanns have consistently refused to acknowledge that they did wrong by leaving their children. They have referred to 'the situation that Madeleine found herself in' to which you could, if you wanted to, add 'when she ran out of the apartment and fell' making it her own fault, in effect. They have said 'if she died accidentally when we weren't there how would that be our fault'. Kate prepared the ground on Thursday evening by mentioning the unlocked door and the Wednesday night crying. They were fighting for their reputations and their lifestyle. Gerry said 'It's a disaster', and it would have been if their daughter's body showed signs of sedation or abuse. Finally, they did not search and they mentioned abduction immediately. 

All IMO naturally

Still, I don't think you can come up with a reasonable theory about anything (not just this case) by ignoring facts that are so important as the odd things that happened that week before the 3rd. But that's just MOO.

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by ScarletLaw on 23.01.15 16:31

I haven't read all the replies but in terms of evidence reported of when she died, there's indication that the curtains were washed and there wasn't much DNA of Madeleine found in the Apartment, suggesting some kind of clean up had to take place and this would take time. So I don't think it happened later in the evening when they were in the Tapas. Also Kate wasn't cool in the Tapas that evening and was commenting to Jane, that Gerry was taking his time, which suggests anxiety and there's the very fishy account of Jane Tanner. Which my instinct tells me that she was a look out or aiding Gerry in a way at that time, suggesting that something had already been put in place earlier-but seeing Jez, then through this into confusion a little. Also the scent was found in various places around the apartment suggesting a body had been moved and for the scent to have been picked up by the dogs much later, it had to have been there for a time. I do believe that the other Doctor was involved though along with his wife. Also I don't believe in the fridge theory but more than likely it's packets of ice on a body being transported in a car.

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What happened to Madeleine McCann?

Post by G-Unit on 23.01.15 17:53

@ScarletLaw wrote:I haven't read all the replies but in terms of evidence reported of when she died, there's indication that the curtains were washed and there wasn't much DNA of Madeleine found in the Apartment, suggesting some kind of clean up had to take place and this would take time. So I don't think it happened later in the evening when they were in the Tapas.
friedtomatoes said in this forum in 2012
Keela the blood dog alerted to the lower part of a curtain in the living room. Even when things are washed she can still detect the scent of blood. I have a vague memory that the curtains were washed by the owner/Mark Warner as a routine yearly freshen up and a while after May. I think that KMC washing them is one of those myths as is washing the shower curtains. 5a bathroom had a glass screen and not shower curtains.
Also Kate wasn't cool in the Tapas that evening and was commenting to Jane, that Gerry was taking his time, which suggests anxiety Ah yes, I'd forgotten that, well spotted!
and there's the very fishy account of Jane Tanner. Which my instinct tells me that she was a look out or aiding Gerry in a way at that time, suggesting that something had already been put in place earlier-but seeing Jez, then through this into confusion a little. Some or all of the others could have known, just my attempt to keep things simple.
Also the scent was found in various places around the apartment suggesting a body had been moved and for the scent to have been picked up by the dogs much later, it had to have been there for a time. I'm not clear how long a body needs to be in place to be detectable. Anyone? I do believe that the other Doctor was involved though along with his wife. Also I don't believe in the fridge theory but more than likely it's packets of ice on a body being transported in a car. According to Martin Grimes, Eddie marked the car first. Then Keela went inside the car and marked the boot and the key. Both dogs marked the key again when it was taken from the car and put elsewhere. As Eddie alerts to blood as well as cadaver scent, then that is what he may have been alerting to in the car, so there may have been no body in the car OR there was cadaver scent from clothing and the toy when the McCanns moved to the villa. I could be wrong, obviously. Comments welcome.
Ayniio - I am not necessarily suggesting any digging, I just really have no idea what happened to any body. I would have had a complete nervous breakdown wondering what to do with it myself. I would be grateful to hear which strange things happened earlier in the week in your opinion. I know it was a very strange week.
All IMO

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by ScarletLaw on 23.01.15 18:21

@G-Unit wrote:
@ScarletLaw wrote:I haven't read all the replies but in terms of evidence reported of when she died, there's indication that the curtains were washed and there wasn't much DNA of Madeleine found in the Apartment, suggesting some kind of clean up had to take place and this would take time. So I don't think it happened later in the evening when they were in the Tapas.
friedtomatoes said in this forum in 2012
Keela the blood dog alerted to the lower part of a curtain in the living room. Even when things are washed she can still detect the scent of blood. I have a vague memory that the curtains were washed by the owner/Mark Warner as a routine yearly freshen up and a while after May. I think that KMC washing them is one of those myths as is washing the shower curtains. 5a bathroom had a glass screen and not shower curtains.  I don't know anything about the bathroom but I did come across something that said about the curtains being washed but also that some kind of chemical suggested in clean-up also, which is interesting considering the blood detected by the dog.
lso Kate wasn't cool in the Tapas that evening and was commenting to Jane, that Gerry was taking his time, which suggests anxiety Ah yes, I'd forgotten that, well spotted!
and there's the very fishy account of Jane Tanner. Which my instinct tells me that she was a look out or aiding Gerry in a way at that time, suggesting that something had already been put in place earlier-but seeing Jez, then through this into confusion a little. Some or all of the others could have known, just my attempt to keep things simple. I'm still not sure about the others yet but I'm pretty sure about these two could be involved, especially Jane, who doesn't like Gerry. If anyone cracks-my guess is it's going to be her first.
Also the scent was found in various places around the apartment suggesting a body had been moved and for the scent to have been picked up by the dogs much later, it had to have been there for a time. I'm not clear how long a body needs to be in place to be detectable. Anyone? Because the dogs came much later I've been told that probably 2-3 hours at least in order for the scent to linger that long, but I have to check this with others yet for certain.  I do believe that the other Doctor was involved though along with his wife. Also I don't believe in the fridge theory but more than likely it's packets of ice on a body being transported in a car. According to Martin Grimes, Eddie marked the car first. Then Keela went inside the car and marked the boot and the key. Both dogs marked the key again when it was taken from the car and put elsewhere. As Eddie alerts to blood as well as cadaver scent, then that is what he may have been alerting to in the car, so there may have been no body in the car OR there was cadaver scent from clothing and the toy when the McCanns moved to the villa. I could be wrong, obviously. Comments welcome. I'm not certain either that there was a body in the car and like you think it could've come from elsewhere but I still feel, with the witness in Portugal who spoke to Amaral about the car being left open for days is really, really strange; and I can't see any other reason for them doing that apart from a body being in there?
 The reason I think, if they did transport her and just my opinion, is they drew our attention to meat and fish thawing as an excuse? And this would psychologically fit in with a body thawing-hence the body being covered in ice. Either for preservation or covering the scent. Just theories at this stage.
Ayniio - I am not necessarily suggesting any digging, I just really have no idea what happened to any body. I would have had a complete nervous breakdown wondering what to do with it myself. I would be grateful to hear which strange things happened earlier in the week in your opinion. I know it was a very strange week.
All IMO

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Ayniia on 23.01.15 18:23

@G-Unit wrote:
Ayniio - I am not necessarily suggesting any digging, I just really have no idea what happened to any body. I would have had a complete nervous breakdown wondering what to do with it myself. I would be grateful to hear which strange things happened earlier in the week in your opinion. I know it was a very strange week.
All IMO

Better than my opinion here's a great topic http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4141-could-something-have-happened-to-madeleine-earlier-in-the-week?highlight=first+week

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What happened to Madeleine McCann?

Post by G-Unit on 23.01.15 21:56

Thank you Ayniia. Sorry, I got your name wrong before! big grin

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Re: What Happened To Madeleine McCann?

Post by Ayniia on 23.01.15 22:56

@G-Unit wrote:Thank you Ayniia. Sorry, I got your name wrong before! big grin

It's ok G, happens to all of us :) There's so many theories and ideas around...I've been following this case from day one and still I can't come up with a plausible theory.. I spent almost an year reading every post on this site before posting myself. I always say: oh I'm going to stop frying my brains over this case, but I always end up getting back to it. It's fascinating. From a criminal point of view, from a social point of view... But it's so frustrating sometimes ! Your theory, I'm sorry, doesn't work for me. But anyway I respect it and I'm just trying to help you in having acess to more information that can make your theory more complete. I try hard keeping away from this case but I can't. It's an obcession. Madeleine deserves justice, so does Mr. Amaral and Tony and everyone that suffered because of this...
Sorry for the off topic.

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