Discrepancy about the McCann twins being in the Creche on Thursday morning

Hicks wrote:Miss Chekeya was invited to join GM at his table sometime between 9.30-9.50 on the Tuesday night. Miss Chekeya said in her statement that there was one place setting unused and she could not remember seeing Kate McCann so Kate was probably back in the apartment by 10.00 or just after.

Between 22.16 and 22.27 KM phone was activated six times in rapid fire, probably whilst in 5a. Was she phoning a friend complaining about her useless husband who was now flirting? The husband who also left her to constantly look after three children, one a real handful who now wouldn't stop crying?
 
Mrs Fenn stated that the crying started 22.30, Madeleine crying for her father. Did Madeleine know her mother was already in the flat? It is highly likely that she heard her mother enter 5a as she was obviously not asleep.  Perhaps Kate had told her to be quiet, or had been into the children's bedroom shouting at her to go back to sleep. Kate would have been stressed, upset, angry with GM for ignoring her and possibly flirting with the pretty Quiz master. 
Madeleine continued crying for over an hour.....then suddenly the crying stopped as the doors were opened. Could it be that someone went out instead of entering? Imo this is the time that Madeleine sadly died.

On the Wednesday morning KM was up very early on the phone to her friend Amanda( who's husband is a pathologist). According to the phone records there are no details of how long these calls lasted or whether they were SMSs, they were all deleted. Also on the Wednesday Kate received that call from a landline in Swansea. This was the day that help from the UK was mobilized imo. 

On the Tuesday evening, and the Wednesday it is possible to see a pattern of events. An outburst of uncontrolled temper, frustration and anger perhaps unleashed onto Madeleine, who was on the receiving end.

GM stands by his wife as no doubt she has told him that he is equally guilty as his actions that night drove her to such an extreme.

The McCann's must know people in power, or know bad things about people in power, or have had intimate dealings of some kind with people in power to get the protection they have enjoyed.

All my opinion. not factual.

Carrry On Doctor wrote:. . . why do you go for Wednesday specifically ?

Dr What wrote:d as long as the UK public never reads his book or the official files, then they can live with this.There will always be an answer for any inconsistency in any statements given over 7 years ago.
However, the one area that will not go away for them, and which the public will not forget, concerns the dogs.Everyone knows that these dogs rarely get it wrong.Hence, to convince the UK public of the McCanns innocence,once and for all, these dogs need to be discredited.Permanently.

But they will not be able to discredit them.It just will not wash with the public.The public generally trusts dogs.Despite all the best legal minds acting for them, all the money in the world available to them, these sad and lonely parents are doomed to live in a world of isolation, never daring to look another in the eye.This is the future that they have created for themselves.

00.00.0 Getting ready. I was reluctant to let the dog inside as I did not feel that it would do much good. In truth, I was a little sceptical – I had not felt a favourable impression from the handler (Martin Grimes) at our initial meeting and I was dubious, although my opinion of his qualities and integrity was to markedly change as events unfolded. I began to realise as I worked closely with him over a period of months that what I originally took as arrogance was simply supreme confidence in the ability of his dogs in the face of jealous, empire protecting rivals who were not as professionally capable. Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many ‘verifying’ tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed.

PeterMac wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:. . . why do you go for Wednesday specifically ?

I don't.
I just go back to a day before Thursday, and Wednesday evening / night seems to fit.
It also involves a lot less complications and a lot fewer people.
The further back you try to push it, the more complicated becomes all the organisation.

If you assume Sunday for example - why not 'dispose' on Monday
Why wait ?

Carrry On Doctor wrote:
Thanks Peter, I go for earlier (Sunday/Monday) because;
1. The mobilisation of Robert Murat on Tuesday 1st (perhaps not having been told the full story). He booked and flew from Exeter on the same day. His police approved translation skills, local knowledge, and property contacts who could 'hold the key' to finding MBM (in a temporary holding place) would be invaluable. I have read that Gerry wanted to borrow keys to apartments to 'search' them, and when GM was asked if he knew RM previously he replied 'Im not prepared to answer that' or words to that affect. RM could well have been acting in good faith depending on what line he was fed, I dont know, but IMO his presence is significant.
2. The lack of family photos throughout the holiday. I find this bizarre and highly unlikely for a group of young families. The 'last photo' could well be an appropriate title, but taken much earlier when conditions were more sunny.
3. The creche records and absence from breakfast quite early on.
The theory put forward on this thread about Tuesday night is also very plausible, so I am exploring all options, but I have never gone for the evening of the 3rd.
In response to your question (why wait ?) I would say that time would be needed to let the dust settle following an event (GM is quite a measured person IMO), help would be needed and this doesn't happen right away, and also time would be needed to get others on board and to plan/stage the events of the 3rd.
All of the above IMO of course.

PeterMac wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:. . . why do you go for Wednesday specifically ?

I don't.
I just go back to a day before Thursday, and Wednesday evening / night seems to fit.
It also involves a lot less complications and a lot fewer people.
The further back you try to push it, the more complicated becomes all the organisation.

If you assume Sunday for example - why not 'dispose' on Monday
Why wait ?

PeterMac wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:
Thanks Peter, I go for earlier (Sunday/Monday) because;
1. The mobilisation of Robert Murat on Tuesday 1st (perhaps not having been told the full story). He booked and flew from Exeter on the same day. His police approved translation skills, local knowledge, and property contacts who could 'hold the key' to finding MBM (in a temporary holding place) would be invaluable. I have read that Gerry wanted to borrow keys to apartments to 'search' them, and when GM was asked if he knew RM previously he replied 'Im not prepared to answer that' or words to that affect. RM could well have been acting in good faith depending on what line he was fed, I dont know, but IMO his presence is significant.
2. The lack of family photos throughout the holiday. I find this bizarre and highly unlikely for a group of young families. The 'last photo' could well be an appropriate title, but taken much earlier when conditions were more sunny.
3. The creche records and absence from breakfast quite early on.
The theory put forward on this thread about Tuesday night is also very plausible, so I am exploring all options, but I have never gone for the evening of the 3rd.
In response to your question (why wait ?) I would say that time would be needed to let the dust settle following an event (GM is quite a measured person IMO), help would be needed and this doesn't happen right away, and also time would be needed to get others on board and to plan/stage the events of the 3rd.
All of the above IMO of course.

Mobilising RM is one thing I have to leave out of my scenario. I can only explain it in another way, and for another reason, though it certainly bothers me.
Like you, I am fairly secure in my 'purporting' that Madeleine was not alive at any time on 3rd.  The forged Last photo seems conclusively to 'prove' that, and many thanks to Mitchell for having flagged it up so clearly !  I believe it was taken on the Sunday, for all the reasons we have explored on another thread.
The lack of other photos is interesting, though we note that the Last Photo camera - the Canon - was not handed to the PJ. (See Prosecution Exhibit KH 1)   There may be many more family photos on that chip, but of course the order in which they appear would be crucial and potentially damning. A single photo of Madeleine AFTER the Last Photo would finish the entire investigation.  The Last Photo is rather like the dog's alerts.  They have committed themselves fully to it.  
Creche records are almost useless although they do indicate.
Absence from breakfast is, in my view, even less important, though again it may tend to indicate.

PeterMac wrote:

The lack of other photos is interesting, though we note that the Last Photo camera - the Canon - was not handed to the PJ. (See Prosecution Exhibit KH 1)   There may be many more family photos on that chip, but of course the order in which they appear would be crucial and potentially damning. A single photo of Madeleine AFTER the Last Photo would finish the entire investigation.  The Last Photo is rather like the dog's alerts.  They have committed themselves fully to it.  

aiyoyo wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:. . . why do you go for Wednesday specifically ?

I don't.
I just go back to a day before Thursday, and Wednesday evening / night seems to fit.
It also involves a lot less complications and a lot fewer people.
The further back you try to push it, the more complicated becomes all the organisation.

If you assume Sunday for example - why not 'dispose' on Monday
Why wait ?

I go along with a day earlier.
The anomalies with creche record and phone record seem strange, no doubt.
Earlier death would have to mean earlier disposal.
I can't see the body left for a few days in full view of the twins.
Then there is the mortis rigor and smell issue.
Died night before and disposed off next morning taken out in blue bag seems more plausible.

Justformaddie wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:. . . why do you go for Wednesday specifically ?

I don't.
I just go back to a day before Thursday, and Wednesday evening / night seems to fit.
It also involves a lot less complications and a lot fewer people.
The further back you try to push it, the more complicated becomes all the organisation.

If you assume Sunday for example - why not 'dispose' on Monday
Why wait ?

I go along with a day earlier.
The anomalies with creche record and phone record seem strange, no doubt.
Earlier death would have to mean earlier disposal.
I can't see the body left for a few days in full view of the twins.
Then there is the mortis rigor and smell issue.
Died night before and disposed off next morning taken out in blue bag seems more plausible.

Same here, I don't think k&gm, as bad as they are, could cope with the body of their daughter hidden in the apartment for a few days with them and the twins, a short time yes, til the plan was hatched. I also don't think anyone else would agree to store maddie for a few days to help them out either, that's just too far IMO

Carrry On Doctor wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

The lack of other photos is interesting, though we note that the Last Photo camera - the Canon - was not handed to the PJ. (See Prosecution Exhibit KH 1)   There may be many more family photos on that chip, but of course the order in which they appear would be crucial and potentially damning. A single photo of Madeleine AFTER the Last Photo would finish the entire investigation.  The Last Photo is rather like the dog's alerts.  They have committed themselves fully to it.  

Thank you Peter. Re bold above, I'm not sure if I follow you on this. Do you think that SY believe the last photo to be fake ?

HelenMeg wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:
Thanks Peter, I go for earlier (Sunday/Monday) because;
1. The mobilisation of Robert Murat on Tuesday 1st (perhaps not having been told the full story). He booked and flew from Exeter on the same day. His police approved translation skills, local knowledge, and property contacts who could 'hold the key' to finding MBM (in a temporary holding place) would be invaluable. I have read that Gerry wanted to borrow keys to apartments to 'search' them, and when GM was asked if he knew RM previously he replied 'Im not prepared to answer that' or words to that affect. RM could well have been acting in good faith depending on what line he was fed, I dont know, but IMO his presence is significant.
2. The lack of family photos throughout the holiday. I find this bizarre and highly unlikely for a group of young families. The 'last photo' could well be an appropriate title, but taken much earlier when conditions were more sunny.
3. The creche records and absence from breakfast quite early on.
The theory put forward on this thread about Tuesday night is also very plausible, so I am exploring all options, but I have never gone for the evening of the 3rd.
In response to your question (why wait ?) I would say that time would be needed to let the dust settle following an event (GM is quite a measured person IMO), help would be needed and this doesn't happen right away, and also time would be needed to get others on board and to plan/stage the events of the 3rd.
All of the above IMO of course.

Mobilising RM is one thing I have to leave out of my scenario. I can only explain it in another way, and for another reason, though it certainly bothers me.
Like you, I am fairly secure in my 'purporting' that Madeleine was not alive at any time on 3rd.  The forged Last photo seems conclusively to 'prove' that, and many thanks to Mitchell for having flagged it up so clearly !  I believe it was taken on the Sunday, for all the reasons we have explored on another thread.
The lack of other photos is interesting, though we note that the Last Photo camera - the Canon - was not handed to the PJ. (See Prosecution Exhibit KH 1)   There may be many more family photos on that chip, but of course the order in which they appear would be crucial and potentially damning. A single photo of Madeleine AFTER the Last Photo would finish the entire investigation.  The Last Photo is rather like the dog's alerts.  They have committed themselves fully to it.  
Creche records are almost useless although they do indicate.
Absence from breakfast is, in my view, even less important, though again it may tend to indicate.

The Murat coincidence (that he booked flight and returned to PdL on same day e.g  1st May ) is something that could or could not be relevant. Surely it would be wrong to base a theory on that fact alone, in that he probably frequently flew between Portugal and UK having such strong anglo-portuguese connections).
However, having said that, the fact that he ends up becoming arguido and such a key character within the case seems a coincidence too far. Not to mention he makes a lot of money through being involved.

He appears to be the 'fixer' -someone through his knowledge and access to properties, language skills, local area, local connections etc etc who would be absolutely essential to pulling off the charade.   
The mc Canns and crew would have surely needed someone like Murat to put it mildly. Without his local knowledge it could be fair to say they would not have been able to achieve what they did.

Therefore, I think that the fact that he came back so urgently (as if summoned) and the fact that GM seems to be an astute,  cunning and  methodological type (not prone to acting rashly without pre-planning) is starting to  convince me that RM's return to PdL indicates death occurred Sunday ... but only indicates.

aiyoyo wrote:Would I rush back at a drop of hat at an ungodly hour to help people I hardly know dispose or hide a body even if they promised me £1million? NO way hosey!
Mcs seemed skint at that time and would not  have that kind of money to entice him.

Carrry On Doctor wrote:

HelenMeg wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:
Thanks Peter, I go for earlier (Sunday/Monday) because;
1. The mobilisation of Robert Murat on Tuesday 1st (perhaps not having been told the full story). He booked and flew from Exeter on the same day. His police approved translation skills, local knowledge, and property contacts who could 'hold the key' to finding MBM (in a temporary holding place) would be invaluable. I have read that Gerry wanted to borrow keys to apartments to 'search' them, and when GM was asked if he knew RM previously he replied 'Im not prepared to answer that' or words to that affect. RM could well have been acting in good faith depending on what line he was fed, I dont know, but IMO his presence is significant.
2. The lack of family photos throughout the holiday. I find this bizarre and highly unlikely for a group of young families. The 'last photo' could well be an appropriate title, but taken much earlier when conditions were more sunny.
3. The creche records and absence from breakfast quite early on.
The theory put forward on this thread about Tuesday night is also very plausible, so I am exploring all options, but I have never gone for the evening of the 3rd.
In response to your question (why wait ?) I would say that time would be needed to let the dust settle following an event (GM is quite a measured person IMO), help would be needed and this doesn't happen right away, and also time would be needed to get others on board and to plan/stage the events of the 3rd.
All of the above IMO of course.

Mobilising RM is one thing I have to leave out of my scenario. I can only explain it in another way, and for another reason, though it certainly bothers me.
Like you, I am fairly secure in my 'purporting' that Madeleine was not alive at any time on 3rd.  The forged Last photo seems conclusively to 'prove' that, and many thanks to Mitchell for having flagged it up so clearly !  I believe it was taken on the Sunday, for all the reasons we have explored on another thread.
The lack of other photos is interesting, though we note that the Last Photo camera - the Canon - was not handed to the PJ. (See Prosecution Exhibit KH 1)   There may be many more family photos on that chip, but of course the order in which they appear would be crucial and potentially damning. A single photo of Madeleine AFTER the Last Photo would finish the entire investigation.  The Last Photo is rather like the dog's alerts.  They have committed themselves fully to it.  
Creche records are almost useless although they do indicate.
Absence from breakfast is, in my view, even less important, though again it may tend to indicate.

The Murat coincidence (that he booked flight and returned to PdL on same day e.g  1st May ) is something that could or could not be relevant. Surely it would be wrong to base a theory on that fact alone, in that he probably frequently flew between Portugal and UK having such strong anglo-portuguese connections).
However, having said that, the fact that he ends up becoming arguido and such a key character within the case seems a coincidence too far. Not to mention he makes a lot of money through being involved.

He appears to be the 'fixer' -someone through his knowledge and access to properties, language skills, local area, local connections etc etc who would be absolutely essential to pulling off the charade.   
The mc Canns and crew would have surely needed someone like Murat to put it mildly. Without his local knowledge it could be fair to say they would not have been able to achieve what they did.

Therefore, I think that the fact that he came back so urgently (as if summoned) and the fact that GM seems to be an astute,  cunning and  methodological type (not prone to acting rashly without pre-planning) is starting to  convince me that RM's return to PdL indicates death occurred Sunday ... but only indicates.

Thank you Helenmeg, TB has identified 17 change of stories with respect to RM, which anyone would find suspicious. To re-iterate, he may well have been told limited information to get him to assist, but he would indeed have been an invaluable asset.

The other thing to consider is what influence GM would have on others. He comes across as particularly forceful and persuasive, and I can imagine him calling in favours and reminding people of consequences if they didn't play ball. I'm not sure I agree with Textusa, but at the very least other members of the T7 were leaving their children alone to party, which wouldn't reflect well at all on image and careers etc. I would expect GM would drive that point home. Other T7 members (those in the know) would need time to consider their position...I don't think they would have made a snap decision.

Just my thoughts based on what I read. Always keeping an open mind.

All IMO of course.

HelenMeg wrote:

Justformaddie wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:. . . why do you go for Wednesday specifically ?

I don't.
I just go back to a day before Thursday, and Wednesday evening / night seems to fit.
It also involves a lot less complications and a lot fewer people.
The further back you try to push it, the more complicated becomes all the organisation.

If you assume Sunday for example - why not 'dispose' on Monday
Why wait ?

I go along with a day earlier.
The anomalies with creche record and phone record seem strange, no doubt.
Earlier death would have to mean earlier disposal.
I can't see the body left for a few days in full view of the twins.
Then there is the mortis rigor and smell issue.
Died night before and disposed off next morning taken out in blue bag seems more plausible.

Same here, I don't think k&gm, as bad as they are, could cope with the body of their daughter hidden in the apartment for a few days with them and the twins, a short time yes, til the plan was hatched. I also don't think anyone else would agree to store maddie for a few days to help them out either, that's just too far IMO

Unless they had an empty property with a freezer available to them. A property waiting to be rented out

aiyoyo wrote:

HelenMeg wrote:

Justformaddie wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:. . . why do you go for Wednesday specifically ?

I don't.
I just go back to a day before Thursday, and Wednesday evening / night seems to fit.
It also involves a lot less complications and a lot fewer people.
The further back you try to push it, the more complicated becomes all the organisation.

If you assume Sunday for example - why not 'dispose' on Monday
Why wait ?

I go along with a day earlier.
The anomalies with creche record and phone record seem strange, no doubt.
Earlier death would have to mean earlier disposal.
I can't see the body left for a few days in full view of the twins.
Then there is the mortis rigor and smell issue.
Died night before and disposed off next morning taken out in blue bag seems more plausible.

Same here, I don't think k&gm, as bad as they are, could cope with the body of their daughter hidden in the apartment for a few days with them and the twins, a short time yes, til the plan was hatched. I also don't think anyone else would agree to store maddie for a few days to help them out either, that's just too far IMO

Unless they had an empty property with a freezer available to them. A property waiting to be rented out

Knowledge and access to empty property with fridge/freezer would mean local knowledge or having sourced that info from a local.

If Murat was in town, if he was asked general question about  property for sale/let  for example he might have innocently provided the info since that was his line of work.  

Was he knowingly involved in the plan? imo, no.
Would  Gerry the control freak involve an outsider? imo, no. too risky. The lesser people know the safer.

It's pretty unusual for perpetrator/s to involve outsider unless the outsider was present when the crime took place.

Justformaddie wrote:

Carrry On Doctor wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

The lack of other photos is interesting, though we note that the Last Photo camera - the Canon - was not handed to the PJ. (See Prosecution Exhibit KH 1)   There may be many more family photos on that chip, but of course the order in which they appear would be crucial and potentially damning. A single photo of Madeleine AFTER the Last Photo would finish the entire investigation.  The Last Photo is rather like the dog's alerts.  They have committed themselves fully to it.  

Thank you Peter. Re bold above, I'm not sure if I follow you on this. Do you think that SY believe the last photo to be fake ?

Silly question, but just to be sure, exactly what pic have they said was the last pic? Was it the pool one, or the tennis one? I know the pool one could not have been taken on the 3rd because of the weather, but when did they say the tennis one was taken?

HelenMeg wrote:
Well you see I dont think that GM has that much influence at all - or needed to have. I think it was all arranged by key players in PdL - such as JG. It was their influence that made RM return. I dont think RM would have agreed to help out for the likes of GM / DP etc,. No way - but I most certainly think there was a hierarchy of business men / influential people in PdL (ex pats etc ) and that RM would do anything to join their crown and be like them.  He wasn't part of the gang yet aspired to be. He arranged  and fixed things for them but didnt have their money etc.    He was a useful, amenable type that the main players probably took advantage  of.  When this kicked off he was the ideal person to help and someone liek JG clicked his fingers and R came scuttling back. IMO.

HelenMeg wrote:
Unless they had an empty property with a freezer available to them. A property waiting to be rented out

Justformaddie wrote:I just can't see in this day and age, or 07, why someone or several, would let themselves get involved with the cover up of the death of a 3yr old child IMO

HelenMeg wrote:

Justformaddie wrote:I just can't see in this day and age, or 07, why someone or several, would let themselves get involved with the cover up of the death of a 3yr old child IMO

Well thats fair enough.

I can easily believe it - if they hadn't let themselves get involved then their reputations, on which their status and lifestyle depends, comes plummeting down to the gutter.  There was nothing that could be done to help the dead child...

Out of interest then JustforMaddie, from what you believe,  you obviously think that Mr and Mrs Mc Cann acted alone with no help? Interesting.