Justice or Whitewash?

plebgate wrote:I have no knowledge of how police go about their business but if one of them had cracked, told everything, (whatever that is) why wouldn't the cops haul them all in, tell them that they have a confession and know everything.  

If one of them has cracked I think they would be asking for a deal for their partner as well, so that would mean that at least two had "told all"?

Why not just arrest the lot, questions and then bail them pending further enquiries?

This is what happens on the cops shows lol.

You still have to have proof..it doesnt matter who says what...I guess we will see what happens as the case progresses :)

Yes you still have to have proof that is why people are bailed and police continue with their enquiries?

If I were on the the tapas crew and police told me that they had (possibly) two people who had "cracked", then I think I might well "crack" also and try and make things easier (if that is possible) for both my partner and myself.  Anyone with any sense would I think?

As you say, we will have to wait and see.

susible wrote:

Beanie wrote:Well after reading Pat Brown's new post I am feeling very down 

Whilst I admire Pat Brown for her stance in relation to the case, I think we have to remember that she is just voicing her opinion and I have noticed that recently she's been particularly negative about the possible outcome of the case, but I don't think her views are based on any real information, how could it be and although I do understand why people may not believe that there will be a satisfactory outcome, I don't see any justification for those opinions, in fact I see the total opposite.

Thank you susible I will hold on to that. Also the fact that Goncalo Amaral seems to accept the reopening of the case.

plebgate wrote:Yes you still have to have proof that is why people are bailed and police continue with their enquiries?

If I were on the the tapas crew and police told me that they had (possibly) two people who had "cracked", then I think I might well "crack" also and try and make things easier (if that is possible) for both my partner and myself.  Anyone with any sense would I think?

As you say, we will have to wait and see.

Yes, the 'crack' is just a theory   But after the last time...they wont be taking any chances I wouldnd think..they would want this one signed sealed and delivered, yes?

Justice.

A whitewash would have to entail both NYS and PJ putting all their chips on the abduction theory; a theory that, in my opinion, has little merit.

What evidence do either NYS or PJ have to support the notion that an individual or a team prosecuted a precise extraction of a three year old from an apartment in a holiday complex, effected a swift escape, and ensured that their captive remains out of sight for the next six years?

Here's the evidence that both NYS and PJ will have to chew over when attempting to justify any abduction hypothesis:

Forensic evidence - nil evidence that points to abduction
Physical evidence - errr, still nil evidence that would point to an abduction
Witness evidence - believe it or not, still no evidence that would support the abduction theory, i.e. not once single verified sighting of Madeleine being smuggled out of PDL.

That's a real head-scratcher for the abduction-mongers.

In order to pull off the crime of this, or any other millennium for that matter - a crime with no trace of forensic evidence to point to abductors. no physical evidence of any intrusion, and nobody positively identifying either Madeleine or her tormentors - this group would not only have to be highly organised but also possess a high degree of sophistication in order to succeed in such a spectacular way. Therefore, it's highly likely there would have been a history of similar abductions, remembering that if it were abduction it was almost certainly a preferential crime as two easier targets were eschewed.

Their modus operandi would have been perfected, but guess what folks, there's no history of abductions that replicate what occurred at the OC. 

Does anybody seriously believe that person or persons unknown had evolved from bungled forced entry attempts at PDL, including the fabled 'dry-run', to a crime that was not only perfectly executed, but also managed to leave real evidence that implicated K&G and pointed to a cadaver having been present in 5a?

Would such sophisticated operators be so capricious that they would risk hanging around a select holiday resort on the vague off-chance that they would stumble upon a couple of well-educated middle-class stooges who happen to think it's acceptable to leave a three year-old in charge of 18 month twins whilst they repair to a tapas bar on the p!ss? What a perfect storm that would have to be.

Both NYS and PJ know full well that any hypothesis has to be put to rigorous test. The abduction theory fails every test.

However....... how likely is it for one or two individuals with narcissistic psychopathy to evolve from neglect to physical abuse? This cannot be lost on either NYS or PJ. 

Both NYS OR PJ are as likely to give away their game plan as Arsene Wenger is of disclosing his tactics for next week's encounter against Liverpool.

Woofer wrote:If it is a whitewash, it will obviously be to protect the McCanns. I doubt there would be a whitewash if they were solely guilty - I think they would have been charged by now.  But if they were part of an organisation like Operation Ore to lure and trap paedophiles, obviously Jim Gamble is going to back them and probably our police force and government.  All the Tapas could be in the know if it had been going on for a few years and would explain why DP asked GM if `she did this and that` as they would be using their children as lures.  All little blonde girls and one in particularly who wore make up sometimes and posed provocatively.  If the detectives who were watching the apartment out on the street missed catching the paedos, the operation would be to blame. It is really the only reason I can think of them legitimately being protected. This is just a suggestion and not to be taken as true.

That has crossed my mind before now.

But then, virtually every scenario possible has crossed my mind at some point!

I'm a don't know too, so I didn't vote.

Going by past events whitewash would be the obvious conclusion.  The McCanns have got away with it this far, clearly with some help, so why would this time around be any different?

On the other hand my heart holds out for justice: Madeleine doesn't rest in peace and she deserves the real story of what happened to her to be revealed. 

I think the outcome of the libel trial will show which way the wind is blowing.  The Portuguese police files point to the parents being involved, the dogs say that someone died in the apartment.  Both those things are still outstanding. 

Head says whitewash, heart stays hopeful.

Enough of this 'whitewash' nonsense with not a shred of anything to support the idea yet, considering we know very little from Redwood Et al.

It all depends on what you call justice and white wash I think. I never believed in preplanned murder or paedophile theories, although I have to admit I find David Payne and Jon Conner very creepy, their statements are really off. My best guess is that there was an accident, maybe under some sedation, and they hid the body.
However, whatever happened, the parents are at the core of it, because of their neglect. Yes, I know, a lot of you don't believe in the neglect, but I do. Really a sane person could not make that up.

So for me justice would mean coming up with an acceptable explanantion, dead paedos are not. Furthermore the disastrous role of the parents should be made public so Kate never can say again: "it's not as if we did something wrong". On an aside, I would have Kate write 10x per day "yes, I did something wrong", maybe that will get through to her head.

The role of the various McCann enablers should be laid out.

I do not believe that the cover up is because the McCanns are something special, because they clearly are not. From the beginning I have said that they had a lot of people out of sympathy jumping their bandwagon and playing their tune. They did do that with a lot of noise and some very shady activities. "Important" people don't want to look stupid. But the stupidity only grew with each further attempt to "save" the pathetic parents. Can you imagine how Andy would look if he has to go on the screen again and tell the world that the only culprits are the parents? it really would look like a big satire, so that's not gonna happen. Therefore I don't believe there will be full clarity and justice. Too many people beside Andy that have eggs on their face, just think of Leveson to name an example. The timing of this enormous media violence in itself says enough: Dr. Amaral has to be silenced, even if it is through making a lot of noise on other channels. Anything goes.


ETA: I am just starting on the WOW thread. It will probably link to gary Hagland. Anyway, just confirms what I was trying to say.

loopzdaloop wrote:Enough of this 'whitewash' nonsense with not a shred of anything to support the idea yet, considering we know very little from Redwood Et al.

So you want people only to choose "justice"? Well there's a freedom of speech.

loopzdaloop wrote:Enough of this 'whitewash' nonsense with not a shred of anything to support the idea yet, considering we know very little from Redwood Et al.

Can you explain how after a 2.5 year review of the case the parents are not suspects, will suddenly become suspects again? How will that happen?

Put the kids up as lures to aid the capture of nonces. Who the f**k is going to allow their children to be used for that purpose. Regarding the whitewash scenario, I don't believe a word that the British press publish. From the Telegraph to the Star they are all a disgrace. If you want to whitewash you don't air the dirty laundry in public.  The McCann's are filthy and have only got away with events so far because they have fortunately for them been caught between two jurisdictions. Well they aren't now because two sides are playing for a credible outcome with the two freaks in the middle.

When the police do a raid it's at 5.00am not tea time. 

Great post from Bobby Peru. I like the thought process. With regards to the Arsenal - Liverpool game Wengers bet over 2.5 Goals; so it doesn't matter who wins, the McCanns lose... So to speak!

I'm also of the opinion that JT cracked (who wouldn't after the pressure of these years, with her kids growing up - how can she have had a blissful family life is she was waiting for the 5am knock at the door?) , and imo the quidproquo was the face saving finding of crecheman.

Yet again the phones are being mentioned.

quote :   The thesis of homicide integrates the framework of a kidnapping for reasons connected to paedophilia.

    so taken by paedophiles would appear to be one among other theories in the homicide scenario.

The Rooster wrote:Put the kids up as lures to aid the capture of nonces. Who the f**k is going to allow their children to be used for that purpose. Regarding the whitewash scenario, I don't believe a word that the British press publish. From the Telegraph to the Star they are all a disgrace. If you want to whitewash you don't air the dirty laundry in public.  The McCann's are filthy and have only got away with events so far because they have fortunately for them been caught between two jurisdictions. Well they aren't now because two sides are playing for a credible outcome with the two freaks in the middle.

When the police do a raid it's at 5.00am not tea time. 

I knew I had read that somewhere.  Thanks The Rooster for commenting on it.

russiandoll wrote:quote :   The thesis of homicide integrates the framework of a kidnapping for reasons connected to paedophilia.

    so taken by paedophiles would appear to be one among other theories in the homicide scenario.

Yes it does by the look of it, but the PJ must know about the dogs alerts?

I am finding it really difficult to see right now how this will ever end or go away unless either a body or Madeleine is found. There are just too many people involved and too many unanswered questions for it to be a whitewash. Looking at all the different possible scenarios the risk of someone somewhere at some point in time talking is just too great. So just a few thoughts here.

1/ If it's a pedophile ring involved whether directly or indirectly involved eventually someone will eventually talk to save their own neck. No one involved is 'safe'. Especially in view of the increasing public awareness of just how many people in the public eye or high powers are accused or being accused of involvement. Since the Saville case and all the others have been brought to public attention no pedophile is 'safe' regardless of their position or power. The public or victims will no longer be silenced on this.

2/ If it is the McCanns and any of the others were aware I think again that in time someone will spill the beans especially as they will never be allowed to forget. The mere fact that this is just not going to go away until a resolution is reached must be a continual dig in someones conscience. I can see how at the beginning someone could go along with it but over time and not being allowed to sweep it under the carpet means it has not and will not go away. Could they keep living with this when time has already proven it will not go away?
 
3/If it is a cover up on behalf of the government or police then again someone somewhere in time could potentially blow the whistle. There would in any case be too many people involved in this to be silenced forever. While there is this possibility no one involved could consider themselves 'safe'. 

There surely has to be some kind of resolution and am living in hope it is soon for everyone's sake!

Joti26 - very well made points. I agree. This relentless PR campaign was a very high risk strategy and is now imploding.
The T& must have realised very rapidly that it was a complete nightmare, and must be living hell, particularly Fiona Payne.

Regarding the reason the McCanns are not officially suspects at the current time, i.e. yet:

Watch an episode of Columbo ;-)

For me I think its a whitewash.

We are back to gypsies again!

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Dodgy gypsies
Dodgy charity workers
Dodgy dutch & Germans
Wandering parents with flaked out kids in pj's
Smell of death in apartments
Dodgy paedos

Welcome to PDL the family resort.

notlongnow wrote:Dodgy gypsies
Dodgy charity workers
Dodgy dutch & Germans
Wandering parents with flaked out kids in pj's
Smell of death in apartments
Dodgy paedos

Welcome to PDL the family resort.

Your forgot the cleaners & the white van

candyfloss wrote:

notlongnow wrote:Dodgy gypsies
Dodgy charity workers
Dodgy dutch & Germans
Wandering parents with flaked out kids in pj's
Smell of death in apartments
Dodgy paedos

Welcome to PDL the family resort.

Your forgot the cleaners & the white van

 

Thought it was to short a list.



I do wonder if there is a power struggle going on behind the scenes.
Some trying to whitewash it the other side starting to chip away at the truth.

These gypsy stories seem very convienient/timely.

I should think there may be one or two men with dodgy backs after all that carrying of children around.

plebgate wrote:I should think there may be one or two men with dodgy backs after all that carrying of children around.

Yes getting too silly now, can't stop laughing with what you just said.  

Is the crèche called Barefooted Pyjama resort, come and play barefooted you can leave their shoes and clothes behind. Drop off 7pm pick up 10pm, they can sleep for 3hours while you go out at night.

Is there any truth in rumours that the Ocean Club had spoken to them about Maddie crying previous to Mrs Fenn

plebgate wrote:I should think there may be one or two men with dodgy backs after all that carrying of children around. 

@plebgate

Is there any mention in the files of the PJ making enquiries of Luz's pharmacies as to whether any men had bought linament or muscle rub on Friday 4 May 2007, or asking local chiropractors if they had treated any pock marked, blond haired, or featureless men with back problems in the days following the child's disappearance?