Re: David Payne

by jd 26.07.11 19:49

Thanks for that candlyfloss

This is obviously a total and complete contradiction! and proves I am not going mad! This is not just a time inconsistency but one which says GM was in the apartment and another saying he was playing tennis with him. Nobody could get this scenario so wrong unless they were lying in the first place!

by jd 26.07.11 19:51

and they all keep saying 'you know' all the time in their statements. First line of defence saying something like this when you are not saying the truth

by **Tony Bennett** 26.07.11 20:20

jd wrote:I have strongly suspected David Payne is somehow in the centre of all this. Can't quite put my finger on it yet (though I have my theories) but after reading more police statements, came across this which a letter from Leicester police to the PL on October 24 2007 that is not on the DVD

"Ricardo, As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar. I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne. but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there. He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon. He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield. He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.

For many questions, he does not give a complete response, affirming simply that he has already given this information to the Portuguese police in his declarations. I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."

What has confused me is didn't GM send him to the apartment to check on KM and the kids at 6.30pm? as they were playing tennis together? or have I got this wrong?

He is saying here that he went to the apartment at 5pm but they were playing tennis then....or have I missed something?

Fiona Payne says she went to the apartment at 7pm with KM. I thought KM was already in the apartment bathing and putting the kids to bed, and David Payne had seen the kids at 6.30pm in the apartment in their pyjama's...Im very confused now!

jd, I'd like to thank you very much for (a) finding that report from Leicestershire Police and (b) posting it up here.

It's one of those moments when one really appreciates the research benefits of forums like this, reminds me of some of the awesoms research threads we used to get on 3As in its heyday.

It's valuable to us at this time because we are just compiling a list of major contradictions and changes of story in the various statements of the McCanns and their 'Taps 9' friends, in order to send our friends at Scotland Yard a comprehensive set of them to analyse - and your 'find' really helps us to develop two or three contradictions around the movements of Dr Gerald McCann and Dr David Payne that late afternoon and early evening.

Can I just say one thing, though. The sheer number of contradictions there are - and the fact that so many are utterly irreconcilable - really tells us that things did not happen even approximating their stories that late afternoon and early evening. I suggest it is powerful evidence that they are rehearsing an alternative story, and cannot remember their scripts.

Generally speaking, with most sets of contradictions, one can say that either:

a) one person is right, and the other is mistaken or lying, or
b) both are mistake or lying.

IMO in this case, the contradictions suggest that, usually, both are lying.

Take, for example, the issue of Dr David Payne's claimed visit to the McCanns' apartment, at 5pm or 6.30pm or whenever it was alleged to have happened. The stories about this are so at odds with each other that I am prepared to suggest:

That visit of Dr David Payne to the McCanns' apartment never happened.

I go further.

I suggest it was invented to bolster the claim that Madeleine McCann was alive that afternoon/early evening.

Having said that, let me now share some observations I made in a letter to Carter-Ruck dated August 2010. The observations were based on a series of extracts of statements of the McCanns and their friends which I 'numbered' 'A' to 'W':

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

LIST OF CONTRADICTIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE AFTERNOON AND EVENING OF 3 MAY 2007:

(Nos. 1 to 7 omitted)

8)Dr Gerald McCann in his account says that he returned to play tennis at 6.00pm and Dr Payne says that he continued to play at 7.00pm. That would seem unlikely if he had genuinely had an Achilles tendon injury which at 4.30pm prevented him from playing any more tennis. At this point it is pertinent to observe that according to their accounts, Dr Gerald McCann arrived at the tennis courts at 3.00pm and remained there throughout for four whole hours except, he says, for briefly visiting the crèche just before 5.30pm and bathing the children between then and 6.00pm.

9) From David Smith we now get an account of what happened at 7.00pm which varies significantly from the accounts given by Dr Gerald McCann and Dr Kate McCann about the reading of books to the children. Dr Gerald McCann tells David Smith: “We all sat on Madeleine’s bed reading stories”. Dr Kate McCann says: “I [not her husband] read stories to the children on the sofa”. But Smith’s account says: “Gerry was in his apartment at 7pm, had a glass of water, then a beer, while the children sat with Kate on the couch having stories with a snack”.

One or two other points about this are worthy of note en passant. In Dr Kate McCann’s first statement (D above), she refers only to giving ‘milk and biscuits’ to the twins (not to Madeleine). She then decides to take a shower. The reference to ‘not being able to remember what coloured top Madeleine was wearing’ is curious to say the least when the McCanns produced, around three weeks after she was reported missing, and only after Dr Gerald McCann had returned to England for a couple of days at the end of May, the so-called ‘last photo’ of Madeleine, apparently taken at 2.29pm, when she was clearly wearing a pink dress or top.

Finally, Dr Kate McCann says this: “After David left, Kate dressed and sat with the children, Madeleine on her lap. She was wearing a top, she doesn’t remember what colour it was, a green long-sleeved t-shirt, blue denim trousers, sports shoes and white socks”. David Payne either left when he arrived at about 6.30pm (Dr Kate McCann’s version) or half-an-hour later (Dr David Payne’s version). But Dr Gerald McCann says this: “That they bathed the children [between 17h30 and 18h00], the deponent having left at 18h00 for a tennis game only for men”. It seems very strange therefore that between half-an-hour to an hour after Madeleine was bathed, Dr Kate McCann says she is on her lap ‘wearing a top, she doesn’t remember what colour it was, a green long-sleeved t-shirt, blue denim trousers, sports shoes and white socks’. Moreover, the descriptions ‘green long-sleeved T-shirt’ and ‘blue denim trousers’ hardly accords with what Dr David Payne recollects seeing: three ‘angelic’ children dressed in white.

10) Turning now to the Panorama programme of 19 November 2007 (Item (I) above), which again was thoroughly researched, presenter Richard Bilton asserts: “At 6, Gerry McCann has his third tennis lesson of the day, so he leaves the flat. He says as a family they talked about bringing the children back out to play in the area by the courts”. This account first of all contradicts the David James Smith article which states that Dr Gerald McCann was unable to play any more tennis after 4.30pm on account of his Achilles tendon injury. Moreover, the claim that the couple talked about bringing the children out to play in the recreation area after 6.00pm is flatly contradicted by Dr Kate McCann’s account that the children were very tired at 5.30pm, and that the couple decided to bath them and get them ready for bed between 5.30pm and 6.00pm and had by that time ruled out the children going out to play any more. Richard Bilton’s account continues: “At 6.30 Gerry McCann asks a friend, David Payne, to pop in on Kate to see if the children are coming down”. Once again, this does not accord at all with Dr Kate McCann’s account that they had already decided to bath the children and get them ready for bed.

11) In Dr Gerald McCann’s ‘arguido’ statement of 7 September 2007, he states: “He says that he was playing tennis at 18h30 when David appeared near the tennis court and asked him through the net if he was going to continue playing. The deponent said he didn’t know because Kate might be needing help to look after the three children, even more so because they intended to bring them to the recreation area after their showers”. Clearly, then, although Dr Gerald McCann told David James Smith that he was unable to play tennis because of an Achilles tendon at 4.30pm, he was in fact playing a game of tennis at 6pm. We are now told, however, that the reason that Dr Gerald McCann sent Dr Payne up to his apartment was ‘because Kate might be needing help to look after three children’. Here he again claims: “We intended to bring [the children] to the recreation area after our showers”, despite Dr Kate McCann, back on 6 May, stating to the Portuguese police that the two of them were bathing the children between 5.30pm and 6.00pm, having already decided that the children were not going out any more. There is also that curious reference to bringing the children to the recreation area ‘after their showers’. Dr Gerald McCann does not mention having a shower at all. And Dr Kate McCann said she had just stepped out of the shower when Dr Payne came a-knocking at her front door.

12) If we now turn to Item (K), in what appears to be another article directly sourced from Clarence Mitchell, we learn: “The source said: ‘David Payne saw Madeleine at around 6.30pm. He popped in because Gerry wanted to make sure Kate was O.K. Gerry was playing tennis and David said he was going past. I expect it was said [by Gerry] as: ‘If you are heading back that way, stick your head in and see if Kate is all right’.” So now the story has changed again; this time Dr Payne goes not to fetch Dr Kate McCann and the children down to the recreation area but instead: ‘To make sure that Kate is O.K.’ We may note that this article, quoting the source, says: “The McCanns then took the children for tea…” That is not consistent with the accounts of your clients who say, rather, that the children were already having tea in the creche when they joined them. We might also note a very important further contradiction. While Fiona Payne states that Dr David Payne returned to the apartment at 7.10pm, he himself maintains that he was playing tennis until nearly 8.00pm”.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

It is manifest from the above that there are many contradictions in the various accounts, just concerning this one period of time. I might mention briefly another area about which your client Dr Kate McCann has been asked, namely why she was so adamant on visiting the apartment at 10.00pm on 3 May 2007 that Madeleine had been abducted. During the period your clients were ‘arguidos’, Dr Kate McCann consistently said that she could not answer that question whilst they were under arguido status, because of Portugal’s ‘strict judicial secrecy laws’. However, after their arguido status was lifted, they were asked again about this but your client has failed to answer the question: what made you so certain that Madeleine had been abducted? It is one of the central questions in the whole case, yet your client has not given us an answer, despite asking the world to help look for Madeleine. Your clients cannot be surprised if people speculate about why she keeps so silent on this crucial issue.

[REST OF LETTER SNIPPED]

by Guest 26.07.11 20:45

Tony in case you need it for reference the letter about Payne is here in full..................

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by jd 27.07.11 0:45

Thanks Tony for your reply. It feels very good to find anything that will help get to the truth and find Maddie. The list of contradictions you posted is some reading! And though they are all true, it feels unbelievable at the same time, how all their stories all contradict each other so much like this. There are so many different versions of that afternoon it is hard to come to a conclusion of what is likely to be the truth except for your one....That visit of Dr David Payne to the McCanns' apartment never happened. Its all a bit too obvious

I think KM answered the question 'what made you so certain that Madeleine had been abducted?' in the Australian report on Sunday....well her lying answer at least....When she realised Maddie was gone, it dawned on her what Maddie said the night before 'Why didn't you come when we cried last night?". This will be the McCanns answer which has taken 4 years to produce, and I think they highlighted Maddie saying this on Sundays programme to answer the elusive question 'what made you so certain that Madeleine had been abducted?'

I am reading through all the statements etc and as you know there is so much to get through. When I find other interesting contradictions I will post them up. Something I haven't seen being asked yet (maybe it has somewhere else) was GM's answer to whoever was videoing in the airport bus. Its well documented that the video said 'cheer up Gerry you're on holiday' to which GM replies 'F off I'm not here to enjoy myself".....has anyone asked why 'he was not there to enjoy himself'???

Very odd answer considering he had just arrived in Portugal for a family holiday with his family and friends! I know the audio isn't very clear but he wouldn't say 'F off I am here to enjoy myself' as an answer as that wouldn't make sense to the question, so it has to be 'I am not here......' But then what does make sense with any of their answers, I can honestly say so far I haven't read or seen anything from the facts that does make sense except for a possible scenario that the so called invisible abductor could have entered the apartment through the unlocked the patio doors and left via the front door. This is the only thing that I can make sense from the McCanns versions of events, but then wouldn't the elusive abductor have needed a key to open the door from the inside? Not sure but it was some special type of key

The McCanns were desperate for children but seem to only see them at meal times and bath times. The rest of the days they are being looked after by someone else (in the UK too it seems) which begs the question why on earth go through all the trouble of having children in the first place. In the words of Mark Lewis 'it stinks" (not words he was referring to the Maddie case but something else)

I trust you will send to SY Candlyfloss's post earlier today "as if by magic'!! What can you say in reply to the facts of this! I think David Payne needs to be thoroughly investigated as I am sure as I can be he is right in the middle of this

by **Tony Bennett** 27.07.11 8:31

jd wrote:But then what does make sense with any of their answers, I can honestly say so far I haven't read or seen anything from the facts that does make sense except for a possible scenario that the so called invisible abductor could have entered the apartment through the unlocked the patio doors and left via the front door. This is the only thing that I can make sense from the McCanns versions of events, but then wouldn't the elusive abductor have needed a key to open the door from the inside? [REST SNIPPED]

The McCanns' narrative is now even more complex than this...unbelieveable though it may seem, this is the scenario the McCanns are now putting forward...

* We are sure we were being watched that week [look at the video on our website, did you see the man wearing a yellow T-shirt, jeans and sunglasszes and seen staring at our apartment]

* We are sure the abductor must have entered or tried to enter our apartment the night before and disturbed the children, that's why Sean and Amelie cried

* The abductor entered the patio door, which we either left open by accident, or perhaps deliberately in case there was a fire in the flat so the children could escape

* The abductor was already in the apartment when Gerry McCann did his check, but managed to remain unnoticed

* In the three to four minutes available to him after Gerrry left to return to the Tapas restaurant, the abductor opened the shutters and windows as a 'red herring'

* He probably walked out of the front door where he was seen shortly afterwards by Jane Tanner.

Whereas the truth might be...Madeleine was already dead, the apartment was pre-arranged to make it look like an abdcution scene, and the 'checking' that evening was an elaborate 'charade'.

by **PeterMac** 27.07.11 8:39

“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”
Sherlock Holmes.

by pauline 27.07.11 9:04

[quote=

* We are sure the abductor must have entered or tried to enter our apartment the night before and disturbed the children, that's why Sean and Amelie cried

* .[/quote]

If the abductor was there the night before, why didn't he grab a child then? And get away via the nearest convenient exit to his presumably nearby car?

The fact that he had disturbed the children and one of them was crying is not really relevant. Who was going to do anything? The parents are not there. Mrs Fenn I think was out that night (she heard crying for over an hour the night before) but if she had been there, presumably she would have done nothing

by dragonfly 27.07.11 9:34

Tony Bennett wrote:
jd wrote:But then what does make sense with any of their answers, I can honestly say so far I haven't read or seen anything from the facts that does make sense except for a possible scenario that the so called invisible abductor could have entered the apartment through the unlocked the patio doors and left via the front door. This is the only thing that I can make sense from the McCanns versions of events, but then wouldn't the elusive abductor have needed a key to open the door from the inside? [REST SNIPPED]

The McCanns' narrative is now even more complex than this...unbelieveable though it may seem, this is the scenario the McCanns are now putting forward...

* We are sure we were being watched that week [look at the video on our website, did you see the man wearing a yellow T-shirt, jeans and sunglasszes and seen staring at our apartment]

* We are sure the abductor must have entered or tried to enter our apartment the night before and disturbed the children, that's why Sean and Amelie cried

* The abductor entered the patio door, which we either left open by accident, or perhaps deliberately in case there was a fire in the flat so the children could escape

* The abductor was already in the apartment when Gerry McCann did his check, but managed to remain unnoticed
not only remain unnoticed but luck was on the abductors side this night, as all 3 children kept quite for abductor and none of them woke up this time, despite Mccann claims of two people entering apartment which are both Gerry and abductor , and despite abductors 'dummy run' previous night and again Mccann claims Maddie and Sean awoke because of the abductor entering apartment , he then decides to hang about and start lifting up noisy shutters ,

* In the three to four minutes available to him after Gerrry left to return to the Tapas restaurant, the abductor opened the shutters and windows as a 'red herring'

* He probably walked out of the front door where he was seen shortly afterwards by Jane Tanner.

Whereas the truth might be...Madeleine was already dead, the apartment was pre-arranged to make it look like an abdcution scene, and the 'checking' that evening was an elaborate 'charade'.

by lj 27.07.11 13:41

pauline wrote:[quote=

* We are sure the abductor must have entered or tried to enter our apartment the night before and disturbed the children, that's why Sean and Amelie cried

* .

If the abductor was there the night before, why didn't he grab a child then? And get away via the nearest convenient exit to his presumably nearby car?

The fact that he had disturbed the children and one of them was crying is not really relevant. Who was going to do anything? The parents are not there. Mrs Fenn I think was out that night (she heard crying for over an hour the night before) but if she had been there, presumably she would have done nothing [/quote]

So from "we" as in Madeleine and one of the other, they go to the twins crying.

by lj 27.07.11 13:43

* The abductor was already in the apartment when Gerry McCann did his check, but managed to remain unnoticed
not only remain unnoticed but luck was on the abductors side this night, as all 3 children kept quite for abductor and none of them woke up this time, despite Mccann claims of two people entering apartment which are both Gerry and abductor , and despite abductors 'dummy run' previous night and again Mccann claims Maddie and Sean awoke because of the abductor entering apartment , he then decides to hang about and start lifting up noisy shutters ,

3 people: don't forget "they" claim Mike also entered.

by jd 27.07.11 17:42

Reading Gerrys statement on 10th May 2007 he says (Deponent is GM) " After 17H30 they went to the apartment, the deponent having entered by the main door, which he did not lock while he was inside the residence. KATE and the children entered by the rear door, after this had been opened from the inside by the deponent.
------ That they bathed the children, the deponent having left at 18H00 for a tennis game only for men, at which were: DAN, tennis instructor; JULIAN, with whom he had played tennis several times; and CURTIS, with whom he had also played.
------ During the afternoon of that day the rest of the group members, including the children, were at the beach, [they] having returned at 18H30, the time at which he saw DP next to the tennis court. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, to which [entreaty] he did not accede as he had already been plying for about an hour and had to go back to to his wife. Nevertheless, RUSSELL, DAVID and MATHEW stayed to play."

This totally blows David Payne's statement when he says ""He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry" and Fiona Payne's statement where she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to

Also, it seems to be clear that the Paynes had walkie talkies to their room on their restaurant table so they could hear their kids. This same offer was refused by the McCanns. Baring in mind Madeleines odd question on the morning of May 3rd 2007 'why weren't you there when Sean and I cried last night" (which both the McCanns say in their original statements and say this was a very strange thing for Maddie to say)...as parents you would have thought that at the very least they would have used Mark Oceans offer of walkies talkies so they could hear their children if they cried again! they seemed to be more interested in downing New Zealand wine!

by ROSA 30.07.11 23:57

The former senior PJ officer understands that David Payne should have been summoned by the McCanns, given the fact that it was he who, right after the child's disappearance was communicated - on the 3rd of May 2007 - prevented other persons, namely an employee of the English Social Services (who happened to be in the area) from adopting measures. "That's right. The doctor who used to bathe the children is missing, the doctor whom an English couple complained about, in England, on the 16th of May, over something that happened with an underage daughter of theirs, in Mallorca, in 2005", Gonçalo Amaral added.
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by lj 31.07.11 0:36

Also, it seems to be clear that the Paynes had walkie talkies to their room on their restaurant table so they could hear their kids. This same offer was refused by the McCanns. Baring in mind Madeleines odd question on the morning of May 3rd 2007 'why weren't you there when Sean and I cried last night" (which both the McCanns say in their original statements and say this was a very strange thing for Maddie to say)...as parents you would have thought that at the very least they would have used Mark Oceans offer of walkies talkies so they could hear their children if they cried again! they seemed to be more interested in downing New Zealand wine!

I thi nk that was a walkie talkie/babyfoon they brought themselves, I don't recall MW providing those. It did not work though and much later Jane Tanner claimed in her rogatory interview they had one too.

by jd 31.07.11 3:51

ROSA wrote:The former senior PJ officer understands that David Payne should have been summoned by the McCanns, given the fact that it was he who, right after the child's disappearance was communicated - on the 3rd of May 2007 - prevented other persons, namely an employee of the English Social Services (who happened to be in the area) from adopting measures. "That's right. The doctor who used to bathe the children is missing, the doctor whom an English couple complained about, in England, on the 16th of May, over something that happened with an underage daughter of theirs, in Mallorca, in 2005", Gonçalo Amaral added.
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I know that David Payne is involved deeply in all of this so it makes sense he prevented others from adopting measures, This guy seriously needs to be exposed and investigated

The walkie talkie from all the statements all say that there was just the one on the table, maybe it was Jane Tanners....only the Tapas 7 can stop being so silent and come out and just tell the truth

by Bebootje 31.07.11 9:09

lj wrote:
Also, it seems to be clear that the Paynes had walkie talkies to their room on their restaurant table so they could hear their kids. This same offer was refused by the McCanns. Baring in mind Madeleines odd question on the morning of May 3rd 2007 'why weren't you there when Sean and I cried last night" (which both the McCanns say in their original statements and say this was a very strange thing for Maddie to say)...as parents you would have thought that at the very least they would have used Mark Oceans offer of walkies talkies so they could hear their children if they cried again! they seemed to be more interested in downing New Zealand wine!

I thi nk that was a walkie talkie/babyfoon they brought themselves, I don't recall MW providing those. It did not work though and much later Jane Tanner claimed in her rogatory interview they had one too.

I don't know about MW offering walki talkies but they did offer childcare the day after the crying incident. I believe it is in the statement of Sylvia Batista and Vera (of Essex) mentioned the same.

by russiandoll 15.01.12 17:35

From the rogatories, which I am re- reading [ taking ages but worth it]. I have read elsewhere about a strange premonition. Is there anything anywhere else a little more exact about what Kate was bothered about regarding this holiday?

Could someone please elaborate on this please?

”Right, and you say
that Kate and Gerry initially weren’t that keen because of, what is it
they weren’t
keen about?”
Reply ”Well, say from, you know, from recollections and obviously we have discussed
you know the situation since.”
1485 ”Yeah.”
Reply
”Err was
that you know Kate had
got an uneasy feeling, that’s all you know, has come back to her and I
remember you know again,
whether this is
something that’s subsequently I feel has happened be, you know before
the event, but you know Fiona
had certainly mentioned
it err that you know Kate wasn’t quite you know, didn’t feel quite easy
about it but there
was no explanation that I
could give you or you know even subsequently err in discussions that
you know there wasn’t
one thing. Kate, err I
think Gerry’s very, he’s very enthusiastic and I think he’s you know,
you see the
way that he’s conducted
himself you know over the last few months, he’s a very sorted person, a
very dynamic person
you know he was all you
know, don’t worry you know it’ll be fine and everything…”
1485
”Yeah.”
Reply
”Will work its way out and you know whether it be the logistics
of the situation that
err Kate was more concerned about you know I really couldn’t answer that
question.”
1485
”Mm, so just so I’ve
got it straight in my head, did the, the concern from Kate materialise
with Fiona since
or did it come out in
the period that the holiday was booked?”
Reply ”I, in my mind
there
was some concern before
the holiday but I find it very difficult to separate whether this is
just something which is implanted
since we’ve discussed
after err Madeleine’s disappearance.

Also, I find his statement during this interview that Portugal was the only MW resort offering a holiday at that time of year hard
to believe...Portugal is not as warm in Spring as Greece, [where I
believe MW have resorts.... have just looked at their 2012 brochure and
in May you can go and could I reckon in 2007 have gone to Greece.] May
is a popular month for holidays abroad as it is warm bit not too warm
and so good for young children.....is DP trying to say you could only go
to Portugal in May and nowhere else?

Err you know I’d looked on the internet at you know what the availability was in different err
locations and Portugal was the only err Mark Warner holiday that would offer err you know a holiday at that
time of the year.

DP is I am sure being dishonest here, but WHY? Did it have to be Portugal for some reason?

by russiandoll 11.05.12 11:50

Maybe why it had to be Portugal is not an issue, but I still find it strange that a group which wanted to spend a lot of the day outdoors chose an area which has unreliable weather at that time of year. Eastern Med more reliable but maybe length of flights with children was an issue.
I find the following from DP's RI interesting :

”Moving on then to the time that you, when you say after the alarm was raised you went into the MCCANN’S apartment. Can you describe the layout of the apartment?”
Reply ”If you’re going in through the patio doors you walk directly into the, err the living, you know, lounge space. Then if you’re going, walking through the apartment towards the front door you have the kitchen on the, err right, which was a small kitchen, which was boxed off from the rest of err open plan living space. If you were walking from the patio doors into the apartment and you were walking towards the front door and turn left you would go towards the bedroom areas. Directly in front of you, you had the bathroom err as you were looking at the bathroom the door to the left would be the, the room where Kate and Gerry stayed and the door to the right was err where the children were sleeping. Err you know there was the double bed in the err Kate and Gerry’s room and as you went into err Sean and Amelie’s room there was a bed up against the far wall where there was the, you know, was the window. There was another bed parallel to that but across the other side of the room, err along the wall where the door is where you walked into the apartment. In between the two parallel beds was the, err two cots also parallel with the space err between the two of them, and obviously the twins were sleeping in the err cots and then err Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there.”

A ref to Sean and Amelie's room.
this was meant to describe what he saw after alarm raised.
Even allowing for him muddling up where Maddie would usually sleep before she went missing [ and unless he was told where by the child herself or others, or knew this because he saw Maddie in this bed.]....why does he say Madeleine was on the bed, rather than in it ? He cannot be speaking about 10pm May 3rd here, if he mentions Maddie on that bed.
The above is very strange imo.

”Throughout the holiday from the twenty eighth till the fifth, or till the third…”
Reply ”Mm.”
1485 ”How many times do you think you actually went into the MCCANN’S apartment?”
Reply ”Err probably more than other people as I said there was the, there was one, there was the incident with the cot where were trying to, you know, had some difficulty with one of the cots that had been provided to err you know so and they’d got the spare cot that you know so I had to go down and pick that up and then I, I popped in there you know some other times as well, I say I probably, in total during the week, I’d have said five, half a dozen times I’d been to that apartment.”

He knows the layout pretty well, hence his earlier answer re the layout post-alarm." If you're going in....." a general description not a specific one for after alarm raised 3 May 10pm, what he was asked about.
The question posed to DP re- alarm raised and apartment layout after he went into 5a, was asked immediately after DP's strange description of Madeleine.

by jmac 12.05.12 1:55

Interesting.

In between the two parallel beds was the, err two cots also parallel with the space err between the two of them, and obviously the twins were sleeping in the err cots and then err Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there.

What this tells me is that Payne is NOT describing the room as he found it after the alarm was raised because he would not have found Madeleine on the bed.

`On` the bed is how Gerry was supposed to have left Madeleine. Had they been conferring and Payne gets muddled and lets this slip?

by david_uk 15.05.12 15:31

Just been reading the Gasper Statement again, and somethign stood out that ive not noticed before , near the end

"The man who is holding the glass of wine in the photograph is Stuart. These photographs were taken while we were in Majorca.!

Who is Stuart? sorry if im being a total dunce!

by friedtomatoes 15.05.12 16:07

Must be S Gold, he and his wife were friends with some of the party and went on that holiday. Not call me stu Stuart
big grin

by Guest 15.05.12 16:09

david_uk wrote:Just been reading the Gasper Statement again, and somethign stood out that ive not noticed before , near the end

"The man who is holding the glass of wine in the photograph is Stuart. These photographs were taken while we were in Majorca.!

Who is Stuart? sorry if im being a total dunce!

I think it is Dr Stuart Gold, and Tara Gold, who holidayed with the McCanns and the others. They are mentioned in the tapas statements I think.

by david_uk 15.05.12 16:18

I see. thank you for replies.

Does anyone else find the amount of holidays as groups a bit odd!. May be its just me but 1. i wouldnt want to go on so many holidays with groups of friends, I like the time away with just me my wife and the kids!! 2. If i did go with friends i wouldnt want to spend every waking hour with them anyway!. Add to this the amount of times these holidays appear to have been `co-ordinated` by one person (D.Payne). Something very odd here? or just me?

I am also wondering if anyone has considered that perhaps Mrs Gasper got the wrong end of the stick. If all these couple appear to be so intimate, perhaps Payne and Gerry where talking about their wives?. Still very wrong, but possibly not as wrong as is made out?. just a thought.

by **tigger** 15.05.12 17:23

david_uk wrote:I see. thank you for replies.

Does anyone else find the amount of holidays as groups a bit odd!. May be its just me but 1. i wouldnt want to go on so many holidays with groups of friends, I like the time away with just me my wife and the kids!! 2. If i did go with friends i wouldnt want to spend every waking hour with them anyway!. Add to this the amount of times these holidays appear to have been `co-ordinated` by one person (D.Payne). Something very odd here? or just me?

I am also wondering if anyone has considered that perhaps Mrs Gasper got the wrong end of the stick. If all these couple appear to be so intimate, perhaps Payne and Gerry where talking about their wives?. Still very wrong, but possibly not as wrong as is made out?. just a thought.

The Gaspar statement: KG says quite definitely that David Payne asked Gerry if Madeleine also did this. That's what alerted her - I think it's quite clear.
In other words, it wasn't just gestures but a verbal exchange between the two men.
It should be in the McCannfiles.com - if you type in 'gaspar statement' and select McCannfiles you should find it fairly easily, there may also be a bit of scrolling to do and in fact the statement is quite long.

by Guest 15.05.12 17:30

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by sami 15.05.12 17:57

candyfloss wrote:
david_uk wrote:Just been reading the Gasper Statement again, and somethign stood out that ive not noticed before , near the end

"The man who is holding the glass of wine in the photograph is Stuart. These photographs were taken while we were in Majorca.!

Who is Stuart? sorry if im being a total dunce!

I think it is Dr Stuart Gold, and Tara Gold, who holidayed with the McCanns and the others. They are mentioned in the tapas statements I think.

They took the place of Jane Tanner and ROB on that holiday as Jane discovered she was pregnant and decided not to go, iirc.