David Payne

by Doubtful 09.06.11 18:16

I just saw this on twitter and didn't know David Payne made gestures about his own child. Is this true?

jimuckmac jimuck mac
David #Payne allegedly made provocative gestures about Maddy, another occasion David #Payne made provocative gesture about his own child

by LittleMissMolly 09.06.11 20:37

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thumbsup

by lj 10.06.11 1:05

The strangest thing from that story is that you let another man bathe your daughter.

Call me old fashioned, after all I am a child of the sixties and that was a long time ago, I would never do that.

by Guest 10.06.11 8:26

Yes LJ I agree with you about that - I will admit though that I hardly knew anyone when my son was small so I would have been hard pressed to find someone (male or female) to bathe him. What do other posters think? Would you allow a family friend to do this?

by LittleMissMolly 10.06.11 8:32

Marian wrote:Yes LJ I agree with you about that - I will admit though that I hardly knew anyone when my son was small so I would have been hard pressed to find someone (male or female) to bathe him. What do other posters think? Would you allow a family friend to do this?

Not in a million years ... not even my children's step-dad ever bathed them, let alone any other male and only very close female relatives (ie their grandmother and Aunt).

Even if there is no perceived risk, It's just too open to mis-interpretation at best $i don\'t know$

by Guest 10.06.11 8:40

Thanks for that LMM. This has brought to mind the story of the female newsreader (I won't name her for the moment) who was investigated by the police some years ago when she took photos of her partner (not the child's father) bathing her young daughter. She was very indignant to be put under suspicion. No doubt there was nothing untoward but I do feel that she was being a little naive for not being able to understand other people's concerns.

by ufercoffy 10.06.11 8:52

Years ago my husband and I fostered a little 3 year old girl whose mum was my best friend. The mum had to go into hospital for many months as she had severe clinical depression. I then had to go into hospital myself for an emergency operation and my husband had to look after (and bathe) the little girl in my absence. What was the alternative?

by Guest 10.06.11 9:09

I take your point Ufercoffy but I think that we're talking more about scenarios where there are people available other than unrelated males who can be called upon to bathe children.

by Zelina 10.06.11 9:19

The statement always struck me as weird for a number of reasons:

1 - The Gaspars never discussed Paynes's gestures during their holiday. I find that unbelievable. Surely if you were in the same situation, you would discuss it with your partner as soon as the two of you were alone together?

2 - if you were on holiday with other couples and someone had said this in front of you about a child, you wouldn't just be careful when they're bathing your children. You would be so uncomfortable around them that you would leave.

3 - Mrs Gaspar was sitting between Payne and McCann. Any father hearing another man referring to his daughter like this would have a violent reaction, verbal or even physical. The fact that he didn't has some serious implications for both men, and also for some of the other adults (assuming they heard it).
However if several people in the group were paedophiles, would they be so careless as to behave like this in front of witnesses? Especially considering that the Gaspars and Paynes had only known each other for a few days.

by Guest 10.06.11 9:24

Zelina: you've taken the words out of my mouth. I have raised some of these issues before myself.

by Guest 10.06.11 10:12

Zelina wrote:The statement always struck me as weird for a number of reasons:

1 - The Gaspars never discussed Paynes's gestures during their holiday. I find that unbelievable. Surely if you were in the same situation, you would discuss it with your partner as soon as the two of you were alone together?
They did. The husband was told never to leave their daughter alone ever when DP was around.

2 - if you were on holiday with other couples and someone had said this in front of you about a child, you wouldn't just be careful when they're bathing your children. You would be so uncomfortable around them that you would leave.
They never went on another holiday with them, I think that says it all.

3 - Mrs Gaspar was sitting between Payne and McCann. Any father hearing another man referring to his daughter like this would have a violent reaction, verbal or even physical. The fact that he didn't has some serious implications for both men, and also for some of the other adults (assuming they heard it).
This says a lot about Payne and McCann then.

However if several people in the group were paedophiles, would they be so careless as to behave like this in front of witnesses?
You have obviously never worked in a large male environment, where they think they are untouchable.

Especially considering that the Gaspars and Paynes had only known each other for a few days.
Seminars can bring out the worst in some people. Too much alcohol and voila!! Loose lips, sink a thousand ships and all that.

by ROSA 10.06.11 10:25

paedophile is a word used many times by Kate what about Gerry has he used the word

by ROSA 10.06.11 13:15

Hi Brian,

Found some new stuff for you

Here's a link about David Payne making the reservations for the Holiday Trip to PDL:
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You have to scroll down to message: Oct 7th, 2007, 03:27 PM - BagAngel (Roz)
I think that this person has got is own weblog of Madeleine.

This link also talks about Matthew Oldfield being accused of Medical Negligence,
at the Leicester Hospital.

***

I also found this link, here they talk about some kind of system they found (the Tapas 9)
to watch over (Babysit) there children when they would go out for dinner.

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Where is said:
Recently they all went to Mark Warner's in Greece where they had devised a plan of leaving their children to sleep while they had dinner nearby. As Mr McCann explained: "The distance is so small, it was so close it was almost like having dinner in your garden. What we were doing was rigorous with multiple people checking at regular intervals."

Why, if they have this system, did the Payne's (as the only one's in the group) use a baby-monitor?????

Groetjes,

Dolores

by newguest 10.06.11 15:39

Zelina Today at 9:19 am However if several people in the group
were paedophiles, would they be so careless as to behave like this in
front of witnesses?

I don't see why not given the 'myths' surrounding child sex offenders (paedophiles)

parentsprotect.co.uk/quick_facts.htm

You have to remember that most child sex offenders (paedophiles) don't view themselves as paedophiles or consider their behavior towards children as harmful so given this fact how does one expect a child sex offender (paedophile) to behave in front of potential witnesses?

by Laraz 10.06.11 16:34

My son is 2 and my daughter is 7 weeks old and not a hope in hell id let anyone bathe them!! My son is toilet trained and he can go himself now but when he was just after being trained i would be the only person that went with him if he needed the loo!!

by newguest 11.06.11 3:36

ROSA Yesterday at 10:25 am

paedophile is a word used many times by Kate what about Gerry has he used the word

Code:: Gerry McCann has spoken in a personal video of his belief that his family was watched by "a predator" in the days before his daughter's disappearance. In the video, filmed by a family friend in August and to be screened on BBC One's Panorama, he tells of a "window of opportunity" taken by an abductor.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7100377.stm

Whichever particular choice of words Kate or Gerry choose to describe the alleged 'abductor' of their daughter the Home Office facts (as opposed to the myths) about paedophiles/predators (child sex offenders) speak for themselves in my opinion.

Greater protection for children as sex offender disclosure scheme goes national

Donald Findlater statement

Donald Findlater, Director of Research and Development at the Lucy Faithfull Foundation, said: 'It's vital that as many tools as possible are available to parents and carers to help them protect their children from sexual abuse and the Disclosure Scheme is one such tool. While we want people to go to the police when they have a concern – we also want all adults to do what they can to ensure children remain safe at all times.

'The police only know about known offenders, and if you have concerns about someone who the police do not know, this does not mean they are automatically ‘safe’. We should all remain vigilant to the warning signs so we can take action if necessary.

'Sex offenders are mostly not the monsters commonly portrayed in the media – they are people we know, often people we care for. Recognising that someone close to us could pose risk to children is not easy to think about. But, if we know what to look out for and where to go for help and advice we are much better placed to protect children from harm.'

homeoffice.gov.uk/media-centre/press-releases/greater-protection-children

by ROSA 11.06.11 4:43

High level peds know exactly what theyre doing is wrong 1st if a politicion lawyer doctor etc is a ped he or she is a intelligent person who has acheived their high profile status and they hide behind their status they slip under the radar when the truth is exposed their life is over
Its easy to imagine the lengths these people woulld take to protect themselves and silence any threat

by newguest 11.06.11 6:06

ROSA Today at 4:43 am
Its easy to imagine the lengths these people woulld take to protect themselves and silence any threat

What threat? According to Clarence Mitchell 'Kate and Gerry McCann are entirely innocent and have nothing to hide.'

Given this claim of innocence and what is 'factually' known about child sex offenders (paedophiles) why haven't Kate & Gerry ever questioned the behavior of the friends, most notably David Payne? It is understandable that "recognising that someone close to us could pose risk to children is not
easy to think about" but surely questioning the behaviour of those people who had direct access to your child (i.e. friends, neigbours, etc) in the hours before & after they went missing would be a small sacrifice to pay in the search for you child wouldn't it?

by ROSA 11.06.11 6:47

Clarence the clown is just a mouth anything he says is a joke just another act who joined circus mccann

by newguest 11.06.11 7:59

ROSA Today at 6:47 am
Clarence the clown is just a mouth anything he says is a joke just another act who joined circus mccann

I can't understand why the McCanns need the services of Clarence Mitchell? Its obvious Mitchell is 'the link' to the press/media but regardless of what people see or read in the press/media about the case of Madeleine McCann it doesn't change the facts regarding child sex offenders (paedophiles) does it? The facts are (according to the Home Office supported website Parents Protect!) that 8 out of 10 children who are sexually abused know their abuser.

by Guest 11.06.11 9:17

newguest wrote:
ROSA Yesterday at 10:25 am

paedophile is a word used many times by Kate what about Gerry has he used the word

Code:
Gerry McCann has spoken in a personal video of his belief that his family was watched by "a predator" in the days before his daughter's disappearance. In the video, filmed by a family friend in August and to be screened on BBC One's Panorama, he tells of a "window of opportunity" taken by an abductor.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7100377.stm

Whichever particular choice of words Kate or Gerry choose to describe the alleged 'abductor' of their daughter the Home Office facts (as opposed to the myths) about paedophiles/predators (child sex offenders) speak for themselves in my opinion.

Greater protection for children as sex offender disclosure scheme goes national

Donald Findlater statement

Donald Findlater, Director of Research and Development at the Lucy Faithfull Foundation, said: 'It's vital that as many tools as possible are available to parents and carers to help them protect their children from sexual abuse and the Disclosure Scheme is one such tool. While we want people to go to the police when they have a concern – we also want all adults to do what they can to ensure children remain safe at all times.

'The police only know about known offenders, and if you have concerns about someone who the police do not know, this does not mean they are automatically ‘safe’. We should all remain vigilant to the warning signs so we can take action if necessary.

'Sex offenders are mostly not the monsters commonly portrayed in the media – they are people we know, often people we care for. Recognising that someone close to us could pose risk to children is not easy to think about. But, if we know what to look out for and where to go for help and advice we are much better placed to protect children from harm.'

homeoffice.gov.uk/media-centre/press-releases/greater-protection-children

There is a witness statement in the PJ files that says that this person overheard Gerry McCann talking to someone on his mobile unaware he was being listened to (I think he was in some bushes) and GM said something like I think she's been taken by a paedophile.

by LittleMissMolly 11.06.11 9:25

newguest wrote:

What threat? According to Clarence Mitchell 'Kate and Gerry McCann are entirely innocent and have nothing to hide.'

Given this claim of innocence and what is 'factually' known about child sex offenders (paedophiles) why haven't Kate & Gerry ever questioned the behavior of the friends, most notably David Payne? It is understandable that "recognising that someone close to us could pose risk to children is not
easy to think about" but surely questioning the behaviour of those people who had direct access to your child (i.e. friends, neigbours, etc) in the hours before & after they went missing would be a small sacrifice to pay in the search for you child wouldn't it?

Now THIS is yet another reason why I doubt the McCanns' story ... they are educated people, who must be aware of the statistics concerning child abuse (and abduction) being most likely perpetrated by people known to the child. Kate in particular, given her GP training, must surely be aware of these facts!

Yet they have chosen unequivocally to show support and no suspicion towards their friends - even in the face of the dogs' alerts and Yvonne Martin's 'doubts' about David Payne - that makes no sense to me whatsoever $i don\'t know$ Personally I'd have been harassing the UK authorities to comb their files in relation to these people.

by Guest 11.06.11 9:56

There was a well-publicised case some 30 years ago in, if I remember correctly the Harlow area, so I'm sure that Tony will also know of it; a boy called Steven (9 or 10 years old) disappeared and all his family, friends and neighbours joined in the hunt for him. It eventually transpired that the killer was his father's best friend who lived next door and had helped in the search. Yes there is a danger to children from unknown predators but sadly there is a greater chance of them coming to harm at the hands of someone they know.

by newguest 12.06.11 16:22

LittleMissMolly Yesterday at 9:25 am

Now THIS is
yet another reason why I doubt the McCanns' story ... they are educated
people, who must be aware of the statistics concerning child abuse (and
abduction) being most likely perpetrated by people known to the child.
Kate in particular, given her GP training, must surely be aware of these
facts!

Of course the McCanns are fully aware of the facts/statistics concerning child abuse (and
abduction). Gerry McCann, in particular, sought the facts/statistics himself regarding missing missing & exploited children from CEOP & the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children didn't he? However, according to the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children, "the often forgotten piece in the puzzle of the sexual victimization of children is acquaintance molestation."

This is because, "people seem more willing to accept a sinister stranger from a different location or father/stepfather from a different socioeconomic background as a child molester than a clergy member, next-door neighbor, law-enforcement officer, pediatrician, teacher, or volunteer with direct access to children."

Again, whilst it is understandable for the McCanns to more willing believe or accept that their daughter was abducted by a 'sinister stranger' I am not so sure it is as understandable nor acceptable for the police to willing believe or accept such a theory.

by ROSA 19.06.11 9:16

How can Gerry claim a abductor had window of oportunity and he did not of course Gerry had his own OPORTUNTYS The statements of T9 are exactly just their versions or lies re 3rd may and if Madeleine died before that date their statements re M that night are all lies

by Gillyspot 19.06.11 10:41

newguest wrote:
ROSA Today at 6:47 am
Clarence the clown is just a mouth anything he says is a joke just another act who joined circus mccann

I can't understand why the McCanns need the services of Clarence Mitchell? Its obvious Mitchell is 'the link' to the press/media but regardless of what people see or read in the press/media about the case of Madeleine McCann it doesn't change the facts regarding child sex offenders (paedophiles) does it? The facts are (according to the Home Office supported website Parents Protect!) that 8 out of 10 children who are sexually abused know their abuser.

I think they have employed him for his connections to the civil service in Whitehall as he will certainly still have his finger on the pulse there I am sure.

As regards David Payne I am still surprised that nothing has come of Yvonne Martin's statement regarding recognising him from her job as a social worker. If he is innocent of any child abuse at the very least I would have expected a retraction from YM regarding this but nothing (how strange!)

by pauline 19.06.11 11:40

[quote="honeybunch"]

newguest wrote:
ROSA Today at 6:47 am
Clarence the clown is just a mouth anything he says is a joke just another act who joined circus mccann

As regards David Payne I am still surprised that nothing has come of Yvonne Martin's statement regarding recognising him from her job as a social worker. If he is innocent of any child abuse at the very least I would have expected a retraction from YM regarding this but nothing (how strange!)

yes indeed. Why has David Payne not called on the lawyers to refute the serious implications from Yvonne Martin's statement? What she said was serious for anyone but he is a doctor. Nobody would want to be treated by a doctor with such a question mark hanging over him.

by Gillyspot 19.06.11 14:10

also if Yvonne Martin recognised David Payne perhaps he also recognised her when she first went to see Kate. This would explain why he appeared to be persuading her not to speak with Yvonne (this seems quite likely if Yvonne has met him in her professional capacity and not as a colleague.

Does anyone know where David Payne worked etc before he met Mccanns in Leicester?

by LittleMissMolly 20.06.11 8:15

honeybunch wrote:also if Yvonne Martin recognised David Payne perhaps he also recognised her when she first went to see Kate. This would explain why he appeared to be persuading her not to speak with Yvonne (this seems quite likely if Yvonne has met him in her professional capacity and not as a colleague.

Does anyone know where David Payne worked etc before he met Mccanns in Leicester?

I used to know all this stuff ... but it's been a long time since I researched it all so I could be mis-remembering!

I believe that Gerry and David Payne met at Glasgow Royal Infirmary when they were Medical Students ... David Payne later transferred to Leicester to finish his training (where he shared a house with O'Brien) and he's been there ever since.

by dragonfly 26.06.11 15:37

Name: Yvonne Warren Martin

Profession: Social Services and Child Protection Manager

This diligence is accompanied by this PJ’s interpreter who is present in this Department, Mr Carlos Moura, as the deponent neither speaks nor reads the Portuguese language.

The deponent says that she has been living in Portugal for seven years on a part-time basis, in other words, she lives a few months of the year her home in Sargaçal and for the rest of the year lives in England, where she still works.

Last month of May, more precisely on the 4th of May 2007, the deponent was in Portugal, enjoying a holiday, when at about 07h00 she turned on the television and saw, on an English news channel (BBC or SKY NEWS), an appeal for British citizens on holiday in the Algarve to offer all possible support to a British couple that was on holiday in Praia da Luz and whose underage daughter had disappeared on the 3rd of May 2007.

As she works directly with situations of children at risk, and as she was very close to Praia da Luz, she went there with the intention of giving all possible support to the couple, and arrived there at about 09H30.

She clarifies that she did not leave immediately for Praia da Luz because she still had some personal things to do at home but left at around 09H00.

Initially, she could not locate the exact site where the family was spending their holidays. Upon seeing a police patrol car that passed close by her, she asked those policemen if they could show her the right location. She was thus accompanied by the patrol car to the apartment from where the child had disappeared and where the parents were staying.

On location there was a group of three people, two being males and one female.

She approached the group and identified herself.

Two members of that group, a male and a female, identified themselves as being the parents of the missing child, which is to say, the McCann couple.

The couple was visibly upset, and the mother was crying intensely.

The third person never identified itself, and upon the deponent’s insistence the couple replied that he was a close friend of the family.

She adds that this third person looked familiar to her.

Using the information that she had obtained on the news, she started by questioning the couple about how often they had checked on the children, obtaining the reply that people went to see them every hour.

As is normal and routine in her line of work, she questioned the couple whether Gerry was the biological father of the missing child, to which he replied that he was.

She clarifies that she asked this question because during the course of her 25 years of service working with children at risk, it is very normal that when a couple has a child and where the father or the mother is not a biological parent, the latter has a tendency to come and “fetch” his child.

After having obtained the verbal response from Gerry, the mother, Kate, asked what was going on as those questions should be asked by the police, which should be on location already and large numbers to find her daughter, who had been taken by a couple.

At this moment, the deponent noticed that the couple began to show doubts about her capacity (did Kate refer to her finding her boring?)and she immediately exhibited her official documents and credentials issued by the British government to calm them down.

Gerry took her documents and showed them to the third person, telling him that they were authentic and with a police certificate.

At this moment, the deponent wishes to clarify that, in England, anyone who works directly with children, whether a doctor, police officer or social worker, has to have a proper credential issued by the police and that this was one of the documents she showed to the McCanns.

Because she found it strange that Kate told her that her daughter had been taken by a couple, she tried to separate her from the other two individuals so that both could speak under more privacy, suggesting to Kate that they should go inside the apartment, which prompted for Kate to react aggressively and against such an idea and told her that they could speak on the street.

The deponent then asked her whether anyone from the Medical Centre had been with her as she was very agitated and needed some support, she answered no.

At this point, Kate told her that her daughter had disappeared 13 hours ago. It was about 10 in the morning.

Meanwhile a fourth individual came towards the group and identified himself as a journalist, and the deponent alerted the couple to the kind of statements they were about give and if it wouldn’t be better for them to remain silent.

At this moment, the third person, who was always near to the couple and the deponent, moved the couple away from her and the three of them talked in a hushed voice for some time.

After this, and leaving the couple behind him, he approached the deponent again and told her that the couple didn’t wish to speak any more with her, or with anyone else.

The deponent replied to him that if the McCann couple felt the need to talk to her later, she would be at their full disposal.

As she said earlier, this third person of the group is familiar to her, and thinks that she may have come across him in the course of her work, as a suspect or a witness.

Therefore, she describes him as tall man, height about 1,80 m, about 35 years old, of normal physical complexion, with short, dark hair, with a round face and with a scar on the left side of his face covering part of the eyebrow and cheek, using graduated glasses of small dimension with rectangular lenses, he spoke with a southern English accent and was wearing cream coloured trousers and a dark coloured polo shirt.

When asked whether she could identify him from a photograph or personally, the deponent said yes.

She adds that after having spoken to the McCann couple, she spoke to the resort manager, and after identifying herself, asked him whether there had been a break-in to enter the apartment where the child was, to which he replied no but that the door was open as were the shutters of one of the windows, which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open.

Nothing more was said. Reads, ratifies and signs.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Process 201/07.0 GALGS Vol. XIII, page 3429
Polícia Judiciária
Photographic Recognition File

On the 13th of June of 2007, at this CID of Portimão, Yvonne Warren has presented herself before me, José Monteiro, Inspector, to perform a photographic recognition.

Because this was solicited from her, she described the suspect, and she was presented with photographs of the several individuals that composed the McCann couple’s holiday group.

From the visualisation of the photographs, it resulted that she recognised David Anthony Payne, an individual that is portrayed in several pictures, as being the one that she mentioned in her statements and whom she supposedly already knew from another circumstance.
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