David Payne

...mine cuts both ways.

People keep dragging up this idea that Yvonne Martin perhaps thinks she possibly maybe remembers someone who vaguely looked like someone from the group.

Ok, but that isn't evidence.

For that recollection to be any use, you have to be able to place it sufficiently well to refer back to your files and pick out the person you were thinking of - and then get the documented facts from the files. Maybe it will be them, maybe it will be someone who just looks a little like them. Point is, vague maybes just don't mean an awful lot. Unless you think we should start convicting people based on a social worker's fussy memory?

No, till a relevant file, documenting actual events is found, then this memory means absolutely nothing to me. Especially as, if convicted of something 'improper' then either DP wouldn't be practicing or, at the least, a record would exist with the GMC's disciplinary committee.

So, until the memory leads to a file, then I'm not sure how useful this is - except as an unsubstantiated smear - which does no one any credit

I must agree with what Letterwriter has said - or should that be written? I have never placed too much importance on Ms Martin's statement; if she cannot identify precisely when and where she has seen David Payne before (if she ever has) I don't think that her information is of any help at all.

If Yvonne Martin has a memory of David Payne and that memory was wrong, she would have been forced by now to confirm that she had got it wrong. It certainly would have been corrected by the time the case files had been released for millions to see.

It was not, which absolutely suggests that she was right.

David Payne has never challenged this either.

Stella wrote:David Payne has never challenged this either.

The Curious Incident of the Payne in the Night-time ?

The suggestion by YM that she had met him before, with the implication that it was 'professionally', is potentially defamatory. Why has he remained silent ?
Come to think of it why had JT remained silent in the face of multiple accusations of lying, or at least of having made up the sighting ?
Why has O'Brien remained silent in the face of the allegations about his alleged 'visit' ?
Why have they all remained tight-lipped for so long ?
One might almost think there was a "Pact of Silence".

The suggestion by YM that she had met him before, with the implication
that it was 'professionally', is potentially defamatory. Why has he
remained silent ?

Quite often when a rumour goes round it comes from the one source repeated endlessly by different people, but what I find interesting in this case is that this suspicion about DP comes from two sources. There is YM's suggestion and there is the Gaspar's concern. As far as I am aware none of them knew each other, so must have formed their opinions independently. DP has remained silent about both.

Miraflores wrote:
Quite often when a rumour goes round it comes from the one source repeated endlessly by different people, but what I find interesting in this case is that this suspicion about DP comes from two sources. There is YM's suggestion and there is the Gaspar's concern. As far as I am aware none of them knew each other, so must have formed their opinions independently. DP has remained silent about both.

And that Miraflores highlights the most significant point of all. Two different sources, unknown to each other, yet both have concerns about the same man.

We must not forget that these two individuals are also professionals. One a Doctor, the other a Social Worker.

Stella wrote:If Yvonne Martin has a memory of David Payne and that memory was wrong, she would have been forced by now to confirm that she had got it wrong. It certainly would have been corrected by the time the case files had been released for millions to see.

It was not, which absolutely suggests that she was right.

David Payne has never challenged this either.

Right. It was not only the rememberence of Yvonne Martin, but the combination with the Gaspar statements (that obviously aren't challenged either by the McCanns) that rises suspicion.
They are remarkably quit concerning this subject aren't they? Exept shouting pedofile relating to the "abductor"

Further to the last posting re the paedophile angle being heavily emphasised, I can't get the expression "It takes one to know one" out of my mind.

Stella Yesterday at 9:19 am

And that Miraflores highlights the most significant point of all. Two
different sources, unknown to each other, yet both have concerns about
the same man.

We must not forget that these two individuals are also professionals. One a Doctor, the other a Social Worker.

If we are to assume that these two individual professionals were
justified in reporting their concerns regarding David Payne then we must
question the the McCanns themselves in light of them actaully knowing
about these submitted reports/statements. The reference to Madeleine's
genitalia in Kate McCann's book seems to project the sexual exploitation
of her daughter onto someone personally unknown to her as if the sexual
exploitation of children is external threat, which of course is a myth. Perhaps this "projection"
is the only way Kate McCann can deal with what may have really happened
to happened to her daughter during that fateful holiday. Perhaps Kate
was fully aware of the "undesirable attention" Madeleine was receiving
from DP & other person's known to her and resented the attention her
daughter was receiving to such an extent that...........? Well, we may
never know but I feel if there is any truth to the reports about David
Payne resentment could prove to be a motive worth considering to explain any accidental death or homicide in this case.

I have heard before people coming out with the argument that DP cant be guilty of any wrongdoing cos he is still practising so it may be a relevant time to remind posters of this article. Therefore I think an open mind needs to be kept and not the possibility of DP being involved in anything being dismissed out of hand. That is not to say he is guilty of anything - we dont know.

DOCTORS WITH MAJOR CONVICTIONS STILL TREATING PATIENTS


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The NHS has employed doctors with serious convictions






Sunday September 23,2007

By Lucy Johnston Health Editor







THOUSANDS of patients are being treated by doctors convicted of serious crimes or punished for appallingly non-professional conduct.


The Sunday Express examined hundreds of files and uncovered scores of medics who are allowed to practise in spite of committing shocking offences.

Under the law all cautions and convictions given to doctors have to be examined by their governing body, the General Medical Council.

However, in many cases the GMC allows the disgraced medics to continue practising, while issuing a warning or temporary suspension.

A small number of court cases hits the headlines. Others, including cases of assault, drink driving, drug abuse and domestic violence, remain unpublicised and can only be found in the archives of the GMC website.

The Sunday Express examined details of misconduct hearings over the last year and our inquiries uncovered:

Two doctors allowed to work after manslaughter convictions.

An anaesthetist who watched a movie, read a newspaper and fell asleep during surgery.

A medic responsible for a hit-and-run car crash who was suspended for just nine months.

A doctor who punched a woman in the face who was suspended for three months.

A physician who failed to report his concerns about morphine doses administered by the serial killer Dr Harold Shipman.

Our investigation comes two years after the Shipman inquiry called for a radical overhaul of the GMC, which was accused of “looking after its own” and doing too little to protect patients.

Dame Janet Smith, who led the Shipman inquiry, recommended that the GMC no longer has sole responsibility for assessing doctors’ fitness to practise. The GMC says it has made wholesale changes, but our research indicates the reforms have not gone far enough.

In a previous interview Dame Janet said: “I am by no means convinced that new GMC procedures will protect patients.” Magda Taylor, of patients’ group The Informed Parent, said: “Why would I want to go and see a doctor if he was a drug addict, done for manslaughter or had beaten someone up?

These cases show many are working who are not healthy minded.” Doctors convicted of the most serious offences can practise for months and even years while they await a GMC hearing.

Three years ago Dr Amit Misra and Dr Rajeev Srivastava were convicted of manslaughter due to gross negligence following the death of six-year-old Sean Phillips at Southampton General Hospital in June 2000 during a routine knee operation.

The doctors failed to react to obvious warning signs that Sean had developed an infection and he died.

Despite warnings from the hospital trust to the GMC, a police investigation and the subsequent manslaughter conviction in April 2003, the GMC did not take action until October 2005 – more than five years after Sean’s death.

A misconduct committee suspended Dr Misra from the register and allowed Dr Srivastava to practise under supervision.

In a GMC hearing last July, Dr Christopher Vella Bonnici was found guilty of failing to realise a 35-year-old patient was awake during surgery at a Birmingham hospital.

Weeks later, he watched a DVD on his laptop during an operation and in January 2004 another woman who was awake during surgery said she felt instruments being inserted.

Dr Bonnici was also found guilty of reading a newspaper and sleeping during other operations.

The GMC hearing concluded his conduct was “unprofessional, irresponsible and below standard”.

It suspended Dr Bonnici for a month. In another case last year, Dr Graeme Holt was convicted of assault in Glasgow.

He pushed a woman on to a bed and punched her in the face, severely injuring her. The GMC suspended him for three months.

Dr Szymon Jozef Niemiec failed to appear before a GMC hearing in January after his car struck a 12-year-old boy and he fled the scene. The GMC suspended him for nine months.

Many cases involve doctors convicted of drug offences. Dr Richard Archer, 41, pleaded guilty to stealing morphine, pethidine and diamorphine in King’s Lynn in July 2003.

Archer was a partner at the Heacham, Norfolk group of surgeries which cover the Queen’s Sandringham estate.

He received a 12-month suspended jail sentence. When the conviction was assessed by the GMC last December it ruled that Dr Archer, now practising in Wilmslow, Cheshire, could work under supervision for 12 months.

A spokeswoman for the GMC said: “Our primary concern is not protecting doctors but patient safety.

We try to hear cases as quickly as possible.” The Sunday Express contacted the doctors named in this report but they were either unavailable or declined to comment.

Who is the child David Payne is clutching in the holiday photos at PdL?

Is it Jane Tanner's daughter?

As I've said before, whoever it is really doesn't like the way he's squeezing her. Her hands are trying to push him away and her smile is a grimace.

He's like one of those dodgy old men most of us have come across in childhood, who pretend to "tickle" or hug when all they are doing is groping.

Sickening.

I've never seen the photo to which Juliet refers. Is it possible to post it on the site?

Cherry Today at 6:17 pm

I have heard before people coming out with the argument that DP cant be guilty of any wrongdoing cos he is still practising

The GMC have allowed doctors to continue to practise despite being convicted sex offenders so that argument that DP can't be guilty of any wrongdoing because he is still allowed to practice is totally irrelevant as you can see from the following article:-
 
Doctor convicted of downloading child porn worked at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital

Jul 17 2010

A DOCTOR caught with a stash of 5,000 child porn pictures has been working at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital.

Stuart Ruthven worked in the hospital last month as part of a training programme.

In 2003, the then Royal Navy surgeon was convicted of making indecent photographs of children.

He was sentenced to an 18-month community rehabilitation order, and made to sign the Sex Offenders Register for five years.

A review panel of the General Medical Council (GMC) ruled that Dr Ruthven could continue to practise, with the condition he didn’t treat under-16s.

But, in December, 2008, that condition was revoked, meaning he can now work with children, and in entering the hospital he was breaking no laws, court orders or GMC rulings. Dr Ruthven, who is in his early 30s, is retraining as a pathologist, and worked in the children’s hospital as part of his study programme.

Children’s charity Kidscape say they have grave concerns about the medic’s freedom to practise. Director Claude Knights said: “The possession of indecent images of children represents a vile crime, which is even more despicable when the perpetrator is a doctor.

“The downloading of indecent images of children is never a victimless crime, and encourages this deplorable trade. Some people would question whether this doctor's sentence reflects fully the horror of his crimes.”

Dr Ruthven is understood to be employed by the Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen University Hospitals Trust, and is undertaking his training under the Mersey Deanery, and undertakes work placements in different hospitals.

The Deanery confirmed he worked at the children’s hospital between June 14 and 25. Alder Hey confirmed the doctor had worked in the hospital, but added he never actually treated patients.

ayne Shaw, director of human resources and organisational development at Alder Hey Children’s NHS Foundation Trust, said: “I can confirm that Dr Stuart Ruthven is a doctor in training and has never been employed by the trust. He did take a very short-term placement at the hospital as a requirement of his training.

“Dr Ruthven was fully supervised throughout this placement, during which time he did not have any direct contact with patients.”

Dr Ruthven, who also worked at the Countess of Chester Hospital in 2009, was caught during a national crackdown on internet child porn following a tip-off from the FBI.

Speaking at a GMC hearing in 2006, Dr Ruthven, who downloaded the images at his parents’ house in Flixton, Trafford, said in 2002, during a tour of duty on a submarine, he was driven “stir-crazy” by the conditions.

He added: “In 2003, I was in a situation where myself and many of my friends were frequenting strip bars. Pornography was fairly widespread and a common occurrence, and I had seen a lot. I was bored and looking to see what was out there and I was de-sensitised. I didn't go out specifically looking for child pornography.”

A spokesman for the Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen University Hospitals Trust said: “We currently act as lead employer for a large number of doctors across Merseyside who don’t necessarily work in our hospitals. Dr Ruthven, like other trainees, will work in placements at a range of NHS Trusts in Merseyside.”

Dr Ruthven was today unavailable for comment.

liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/07/17/doctor-convicted-of-downloading-child-porn-worked-at-alder-hey-children-s-hospital-100252-26871416/2/

Marian,
If you google "greyscale David Payne" you will find a set of photos of Payne and his daughter and the other child on the Pamalam site.

If you all read the "Madeleine" book by KM she shows that David Payne was one of the reasons (if not the main reason) that she didn't want to talk to Yvonne Martin and although KM has been most helpful with all the possible sightings of a lurker she is dismissive of the Smiths sightings (and indeed actually misquotes their evidence to the PJ and totally ignores the Gaspars' statements altogether.

Almost before they'd been asked the McCanns were on about how much they trusted their friends.

Given the fact that they supposedly didn't even know Tanner and O'Brien very well, or Oldfield and his wife, that seems odd.

The story is that their really good pals are Fiona and David Payne. But again, there seem to be a lot of question marks over Payne.

Weird too that he is so like Murat to look at.

So many questions of identity in this case.

Am I really the only person to wonder about the greyscale Payne photos - particularly in light of the Gaspar statements?
Who is that child? Why is he grabbing her?

juliet wrote:Am I really the only person to wonder about the greyscale Payne photos - particularly in light of the Gaspar statements?
Who is that child? Why is he grabbing her?

Photos here...........

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candyfloss wrote:

juliet wrote:Am I really the only person to wonder about the greyscale Payne photos - particularly in light of the Gaspar statements?
Who is that child? Why is he grabbing her?

Photos here...........

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Are these supposed to be all of David Payne's photos because they all seem to be of children (only 2 aren't) and why so many photos of him holding the same 2 girls?

Are there photos available to see that were taken by any of the others in their party (or are they mixed in the PJ black and white files (that I cant tell who is who in)?

David Payne, organiser of the trips, the same person whose sleazy attitude had been reported by S.G. and K.G. There is nothing incriminating in his past and, as we were able to verify, he has no criminal record. What we are sure of is that he has been a close friend of Madeleine's father since university

Is he Kates bf?

Or Gerry's bf?

Is Gerry gay Willo?

Is Gerry cockold Rosa? :)

i dont know what you mean sorry?

ROSA wrote:David Payne, organiser of the trips, the same person whose sleazy attitude had been reported by S.G. and K.G. There is nothing incriminating in his past and, as we were able to verify, he has no criminal record. What we are sure of is that he has been a close friend of Madeleine's father since university

There is Yvonne Martin, who made a statement at the PJ and had Payne checked out when she returned to UK. He looked familiar to her, she has worked in child protection for 25 plus years.

DP is also said to have connections with police and there is a question mark over a call made by him to Leicestershire police .
I don't think he's the devil in disguise but he strikes me as a facilitator and I certainly believe the Gaspars.
Being a close friend of G is no recommendation...

Zelina wrote:The statement always struck me as weird for a number of reasons:

1 - The Gaspars never discussed Paynes's gestures during their holiday. I find that unbelievable. Surely if you were in the same situation, you would discuss it with your partner as soon as the two of you were alone together?

2 - if you were on holiday with other couples and someone had said this in front of you about a child, you wouldn't just be careful when they're bathing your children. You would be so uncomfortable around them that you would leave.

3 - Mrs Gaspar was sitting between Payne and McCann. Any father hearing another man referring to his daughter like this would have a violent reaction, verbal or even physical. The fact that he didn't has some serious implications for both men, and also for some of the other adults (assuming they heard it).
However if several people in the group were paedophiles, would they be so careless as to behave like this in front of witnesses? Especially considering that the Gaspars and Paynes had only known each other for a few days.

1)Mrs. G. always bathed her child herself after that and told her husband why. Also had nothing to do with the group after that. Which would be my reaction because you can't prove anything.
2) They were new to the group. Amaral thinks the group are 'swingers'. I've seen a photo of G where he's as high as a kite, with enormous pupils, coke?

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I think that's quite possible. A bit of recreational drug taking, a bit of extra marital sex without the risks. All amongst consulting adults. But the main players, the McC's and DP are possibly up to more.
G in particular, strikes me as a sort of person you'd get in a club and he would be the one to go too far, like a spoiled younger child. Then you'd have to protect him, because your own, lesser secrets would come out.
Someone who observed them in the restaurant said G and DP were vying for leadership, the most important in the group.
The dynamics of the group are interesting. I think four of them were not in on the real story.

I have strongly suspected David Payne is somehow in the centre of all this. Can't quite put my finger on it yet (though I have my theories) but after reading more police statements, came across this which a letter from Leicester police to the PL on October 24 2007 that is not on the DVD

"Ricardo, As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar. I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne. but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there. He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon. He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield. He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.

For many questions, he does not give a complete response, affirming simply that he has already given this information to the Portuguese police in his declarations. I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement."

What has confused me is didn't GM send him to the apartment to check on KM and the kids at 6.30pm? as they were playing tennis together? or have I got this wrong?

He is saying here that he went to the apartment at 5pm but they were playing tennis then....or have I missed something?

Fiona Payne says she went to the apartment at 7pm with KM. I thought KM was already in the apartment bathing and putting the kids to bed, and David Payne had seen the kids at 6.30pm in the apartment in their pyjama's......Im very confused now!

I have seen that letter you are referring to jd, I think its on mccanpjfiles site.

It does not tally with David Payne's rogatory.....................

[snipped]

but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we’d, you know I’d come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can’t remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he’d asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can’t remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who’d had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he’d, he’d played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me,


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