When did poor Maddie die?

by Bishop Brennan 26.05.14 11:40

Now that SY have effectively confirmed the demise of Madeleine, I wonder how the forum splits on the 'when' question. A morbid question for sure, but central to the mystery. I will open the proceedings by saying that I believe she died late on the 2nd, and was discovered early on the 3rd.

If it's 'some other time', perhaps leave a comment to say when you think?

by Doug D 26.05.14 11:51

Sorry, can't vote as I just don't know.

I could argue a case for most of your answers.

by Guest 26.05.14 12:20

Me too. I'd rule out the hellish lair as an option though.

by **PeterMac** 26.05.14 12:36

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Me too. I'd rule out the hellish lair as an option though.

The Hellish Lair is STILL their preferred idea, in that they have NEVER publicly disassociated themselves from it.
We must therefore assume that the McCanns and Mitchell officially approve of it.
Perhaps each time Kate goes to PdL she jogs around trying to find it . . .

It surely can't be a LIE can it, Carter-Ruck ?

by Guest 26.05.14 12:56

Easter 2007.

by Bishop Brennan 26.05.14 13:01

Clay Regazzoni wrote:Easter 2007.

Easter!? Before the holiday you mean? huh

Care to say more?

by **PeterMac** 26.05.14 13:42

For me the night of 2nd, a fall onto the marble floor behind the sofa fits the available evidence, such as it is.
It allows cadaverine to develop and leak onto the floor by the window,
might explain the panic when the stiff and cold body was discovered and the morning of 3rd,
and the true extent of the abandonment and / or sedation, was revealed,
allows the use of the blue bag for storage and then temporary disposal on 3rd during the afternoon to a commercial fridge
which in turn contaminates the shelf in the wardrobe when they put it back - empty.
It is also consistent with getting Kate and the Tapas 7 out of the way during the afternoon - for the first and only time - so that there should be no witnesses of anything, (including negative witnesses)
with the subsequent tennis going on into the early evening far longer than on any other day
with the nonsense of the Last Photo,
and so on.

There may be a few lacunæ to be filled in, but this is the Purported hypothesis I keep coming back to
Edited to add
It also doesn't require a particularly involved Conspiracy theory.
Just one other person, about whom we had a clearly false answer from one of the main players.

by **tigger** 26.05.14 15:05

Clay Regazzoni wrote:Easter 2007.

Fair enough:

Airport bus - not proof and too grainy
Donegal photos - photoshopped
Sighting cleaner Sunday 29th - no proof (didn't know M)

Zaival beach waiter testimony Easter - noted.
Curious silence re the owner of 5a - although those using 5a earlier interviewed.
Burgau - possible for photos but little time in May to use.

I tend to trip over the evidence of the dogs which makes 5a the focus.
But I'm for the 29th April - McCanns behaviour was 'off' as from that date.
Might even be 28th evening as visiting Millenium was never repeated and imo wasn't a meal with Maddie present.
Perhaps the 'accident' happened even that evening. Perhaps we're not even looking at one injury event.
All the retro-fitting of MW hasn't helped.

The crying episode is a red herring - it's what I believe. The twins cried on the 1st, which is the early version of the event from according to both of them.Everything else is the McCs thinking they're clever.

For me, (btw this is an individual opinion and based on my braincells making connection to supply possible and more logical scenarios - this needless explanation is specifically for those who have mistaken my opinion as fact and complained about it)
It is quite possiblethat Maddie was to be passed on to a distant relative who'd look after her for the short time she'd have left on earth as it's my considered opinion she was ill.
But she died in 5a, and she shouldn't have for none of the plans and schemes included disposal of a body.
There was nothing prepared for that eventuality.

So 29th for me Bish. winkwink

by Hicks 26.05.14 15:43

For me it is hard to pinpoint an actual day.
I cannot believe the reasoning that if an accident occurred, out of the blue, earlier than the 3rd May the McCann's could have carried on with the holiday as though nothing had happened. They would have been in shock, their behaviour strained.
I can find no witness account( from outside the group) in the PJ files to say their behaviour changed or they looked upset at a certain time.

If Madeleine did die earlier than the 3rd then to my mind if must have been planned in the UK.

Evidence of a pre-planned fake abduction....

The blood stains found in 5a contained traces of bleach.

Curtains in 5a washed--who washes curtains on holiday?

Several postcard type photos of Madeleine ready to hand out a couple of hours after madeleine went missing.

The McCann's acting skills, appearing to make the noises of crying yet no tears, as reported by the first GNR on the scene.

The mention of the tea stain--I think we all know what KM was trying to imply.

The immediate mention of paedophiles being responsible. GM was overheard during a phone call on his balcony, shortly after the alarm was raised, by an independent witness, saying that paedophiles had taken her.

The fund set up so soon.

The McCann's playing tennis and jogging just days after the 3rd.

Dr Christian Ludke , a specialist in criminology gives his thoughts on the McCann's. A good read.

What day? I don't know.

by rainbow-fairy 26.05.14 16:35

I voted 'some other time' - I really can't decide on a date. Apart from before the 3rd - just not enough time imo for all to be done.
IMO there are persuasive arguments for most dates on the holiday.
Clay thinks Easter 2007? Maybe... In fact were it not for the dogs and all the discrepancies I really would struggle to be certain Maddie existed at all...

by Bishop Brennan 27.05.14 9:15

Interesting - almost 70% of us think that the most likely time that she died was NOT on the 3rd May, but rather on the 1st or 2nd. A possibility that has never once been raised in the press or media. Interestingly GA himself seems to go with "3rd May between 6pm and 10pm" - which is not a popular answer here.

No-one going for the 'hellish lair' - no surprise there... Just the McCanns then.

by roy rovers 27.05.14 9:22

28 April - date of arrival.

by MarleneP 27.05.14 9:25

Bishop Brennan wrote:Interesting - almost 70% of us think that the most likely time that she died was NOT on the 3rd May, but rather on the 1st or 2nd. A possibility that has never once been raised in the press or media. Interestingly GA himself seems to go with "3rd May between 6pm and 10pm" - which is not a popular answer here.

No-one going for the 'hellish lair' - no surprise there... Just the McCanns then.

The result is really interesting. We only have information from second or third hand. If GA it looks different, he may have information that we do not know. And McCanns are either guilty or they have a knowledge of the actual background that knows not even GA. This background knowledge may be the cause of the whitewash.

by Guest 27.05.14 9:41

I would be interested to know now after 7 years, whether GA still stands by his original thesis of between 6pm and 10pm on the 3rd of May..

by aiyoyo 27.05.14 9:58

MarleneP wrote:
Bishop Brennan wrote:Interesting - almost 70% of us think that the most likely time that she died was NOT on the 3rd May, but rather on the 1st or 2nd. A possibility that has never once been raised in the press or media. Interestingly GA himself seems to go with "3rd May between 6pm and 10pm" - which is not a popular answer here.

No-one going for the 'hellish lair' - no surprise there... Just the McCanns then.

The result is really interesting. We only have information from second or third hand. If GA it looks different, he may have information that we do not know. And McCanns are either guilty or they have a knowledge of the actual background that knows not even GA. This background knowledge may be the cause of the whitewash.

When was last time Amaral expressed his view on this?
Up till the time of his leaving the case that was his theory but he could have changed his view since....
Had he still being in charge he would have changed his view as evidence unfolds.

by Guest 27.05.14 9:58

Andrew77R wrote:I would be interested to know now after 7 years, whether GA still stands by his original thesis of between 6pm and 10pm on the 3rd of May..

I think that Sr. Amaral's date and time were taken from the evidence that was available during the investigation working on the assumption that the witnesses were telling the truth - he might suspect an earlier date/time but witnesses claimed to have seen Madeleine that day.

by aiyoyo 27.05.14 10:01

@ PeterMac

Commercial fridge ? That is interesting.

That sort of narrow it down to who the couple (and/or friends) might possibly know that operates a F&B business with big fridge.

by Guest 27.05.14 10:02

Poe wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:I would be interested to know now after 7 years, whether GA still stands by his original thesis of between 6pm and 10pm on the 3rd of May..

I think that Sr. Amaral's date and time were taken from the evidence that was available during the investigation working on the assumption that the witnesses were telling the truth - he might suspect an earlier date/time but witnesses claimed to have seen Madeleine that day.

Yes exactly Poe.

That's why after all this time it would be good to hear what he really thinks now and whether he, like the majority on here, believe MBM met her fatal demise prior to the 3rd of May and not actually on the 3rd of May...

by **sharonl** 27.05.14 10:04

Reasons to suspect that Madeleine died on 29th April

1. The timing of certain people arriving in Praia Da Luz who possibly back up the McCanns' statements or assist them in some way:
a. Robert Murat
b. Carole Tranmer
c. Certain Government officials

2. The change in the behaviour of the McCanns
a. The sudden decision to have breakfast in their apartment, this started on the 30th April and continued until just after the news of Madeleines’ disappearance broke.
b. Taking lunch in their own apartment even when the rest of the group including the children, all took lunch on David Paynes’ balcony which was just above them.
c. Kate and Gerry leaving and entering the apartment by different doors during the day but using only one door in the evening.

3. The absence of Madeleines’ DNA in the apartment
a. Madeleines’ bed had not been slept in
b. Were all Madeleine's holiday clothing new and unworn? Surely there was some older clothing that had Madeleines' DNA? A jacket or hat that doesn’t need washing every time it is worn, her trainers?

4. No credible sighting of Madeleine on the holiday

5. Kate allegedly asking Madeleine if she was upset about not going to the beach with the others - why didn't she go?

6. No photographs after the poolside one, suspected to have been taken on or around the 29th

7. Assuming that this was an accident, the time that it would take to:
a. Find the body
b. Get over the initial shock
c. Decide what to do and hatch a plan
d. Clean up
e. Hide the body
f. Stage the abduction
g. Arrange for assistance from the UK

by aiyoyo 27.05.14 10:09

Bishop Brennan wrote:Now that SY have effectively confirmed the demise of Madeleine, I wonder how the forum splits on the 'when' question. A morbid question for sure, but central to the mystery. I will open the proceedings by saying that I believe she died late on the 2nd, and was discovered early on the 3rd.

If it's 'some other time', perhaps leave a comment to say when you think?

The Police are not in any hurry, not even with the digs, so they can't be looking for an alive child.

For me it is 2nd bordering 3rd, incident happened in their presence, and the 3rd break way from friends and routine (first and only time) was time Kate used to clean apt while Gerry took her out in the blue bag to dispose off.

As for the cold storage, any suggestion where and whose fridge it could possibly be.
One other person outside the group must have helped them if 'fridge' is in the equation.

by Guest 27.05.14 10:15

I've voted - some other date.

I don't think Mrs Fenn heard Madeleine crying - I think Mrs Fenn heard Kate crying, "Maddie, Maddie". Maybe it happened earlier that day but, by the night of the first, Madeleine was already long gone.

I've just had a thought - when you have a bunch of young kids together and one of them starts wailing, it sets the others off as well. So if we are to believe the McCanns when they say it was Madeleine who was crying, Mrs Fenn should have heard at least two little voices (Sean and I) but more likely three. Kids that age don't cry quietly.

by missbeetle 27.05.14 10:30

I'm with Clay on this one.

by **tigger** 27.05.14 10:31

Andrew77R wrote:
Poe wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:I would be interested to know now after 7 years, whether GA still stands by his original thesis of between 6pm and 10pm on the 3rd of May..

I think that Sr. Amaral's date and time were taken from the evidence that was available during the investigation working on the assumption that the witnesses were telling the truth - he might suspect an earlier date/time but witnesses claimed to have seen Madeleine that day.

Yes exactly Poe.

That's why after all this time it would be good to hear what he really thinks now and whether he, like the majority on here, believe MBM met her fatal demise prior to the 3rd of May and not actually on the 3rd of May...

Dr. Amaral is a clever and intelligent man. But for the purpose of clearing his name he had to stick to the statements and facts and then only those which have been made public, nothing from the unpublished files.
I'm 100% with Sharonl - almost from the moment they arrived something was not right.
The McCanns never had lunch with the rest of the group in the Payne's flat. So not on the Sunday the 29th either when three children were seen by the maid. None of whom can be proved to have been Maddie.
All the T7 lied or were 'mistaken' about various events during the week.
Leaving out the disastrous ''abduction'' on the 3rd, the rogatories show up their wildly differing or impossible timelines, such as MO's 8 mile run on Wednesday. Such as several people who took the tennis photo.
The creche records are doubtful as from the first day.

by Guest 27.05.14 10:34

missbeetle wrote:I'm with Clay on this one.

Tigger's "Three ring circus" topic was interesting. I think the whole week of the abduction was basically a contrived sham - a combination of cover up, and a chance for a load of hangers-on to stick their own oars in. It would be interesting to know what the usual occupancy rate and clientele profile for that week was/is, and whether anybody else tried to book and was unable to, or had an existing booking cancelled. Frankly I think almost everybody there was playing a role.

by **sharonl** 27.05.14 10:41

Poe wrote:I've voted - some other date.

I don't think Mrs Fenn heard Madeleine crying - I think Mrs Fenn heard Kate crying, "Maddie, Maddie". Maybe it happened earlier that day but, by the night of the first, Madeleine was already long gone.

I've just had a thought - when you have a bunch of young kids together and one of them starts wailing, it sets the others off as well. So if we are to believe the McCanns when they say it was Madeleine who was crying, Mrs Fenn should have heard at least two little voices (Sean and I) but more likely three. Kids that age don't cry quietly.

You voted "some other date", if that is correct, then Madeleine could not have been crying on that night which leaves the twins.

Mrs Fenn made a point of saying that the child she heard was a young child of 3 or 4 not a baby of 2 or under.

But whatever happened to Madeleine, if the event had occurred before 3rd May, would the McCanns or the rest of the group, risk any harm coming to the other children by leaving them home alone?

Either the McCanns are telling the truth about the kids being home alone and Mrs Fenn did hear Madeleine cry, or she died earlier in the week and the home alone story was created just made up to add credibility to the abduction scenario.