Madeleine McCann search to enter 'substantial phase' of activity

1soapy wrote:Is it possible to destroy/dispose of a body as well as can be done in a proper cremation? For example, what temperature is required to destroy bone or render it to ashes? Could a body be sliced up so small as to be dispersed in a field or mixed with peat or spread at sea? Would a weighted body dropped somewhere in water be effective? Are there other ways to confidently or effectively dispose of a body, with or without professional people or gadgets? Could any of these or other possibilities be being pursued by authorities in the current search/proposed digging phase? I find it hard to see some of these being done by family and hard to see how the risk of involving others would be taken, though the former seems more likely if performed by someone with the right temperament and a realistic view of what the future might hold if it wasn’t done.

aiyoyo wrote:
Would they need to bring in industrial digger to look for items instead of body?
Those mentioned items are easy to dispose off and would have ended in a land fill long ago.
Chances of finding the body if using phone forensics may be marginally higher than chances of finding those items.
Bringing in ground detection radar, digger, and dogs just for photo shoot is just wasteful of time and money.
About the freezer, if the PJ had an inkling where the freezer could possibly be, would they not have accessed that first before the excavation if it was not already thrown away. The freezer might just be a myth.

But yeah Gerry worked those raptured achilles on the 3rd on his day out of the resort.  He couldn't have gone too far because he made it back in time for purpose.

Bishop Brennan wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:
Would they need to bring in industrial digger to look for items instead of body?
Those mentioned items are easy to dispose off and would have ended in a land fill long ago.
Chances of finding the body if using phone forensics may be marginally higher than chances of finding those items.
Bringing in ground detection radar, digger, and dogs just for photo shoot is just wasteful of time and money.
About the freezer, if the PJ had an inkling where the freezer could possibly be, would they not have accessed that first before the excavation if it was not already thrown away. The freezer might just be a myth.

But yeah Gerry worked those raptured achilles on the 3rd on his day out of the resort.  He couldn't have gone too far because he made it back in time for purpose.

No indeed!  A small trowel would be quite sufficient.  And as you say, small items would have been put into a local bin and been land-filled without trace long long ago.   Bringing in such expensive resources for a random dig and photo-party does seem very wasteful, but then again if they've powered their way through £7m so far, then spending another £70k or so (a mere 1% budget increase) for a grand-finale might well have been signed off.  

The freezer seems to be part myth, part plausible explanation.  GA remains keen on the 'cold storage' theory - and it does seem the only way to bridge the timeframe between Gerry's afternoon walk on the 3rd, and the scenic some 20+ days later.  Grizzly stuff though.

Atomic Peanut wrote:Q: Why would you announce, in a blaze of publicity, that big things are about to happen?

A: To study the reaction and movements of those who might have an interest in those developments.

A.  (a) To continue with the official narrative that has been promoted since Day One, (b) to impress the public, and (c) to justify the current £7.6 million expenditure by SY which has actually found...nothing

aiyoyo wrote:

Woofer wrote:
I agree he could be a liability in respect of keeping quiet, but I was thinking along the lines of what was on his computer and obviously what he was `into` - its enough for him to be putty in anyone`s hands. 

He'd no reason to be concerned about his PC contents since he did not reckon to be given a going over caused by an unfortunate identity mishap.  That goes to show had he been involved in their criminality he would have deleted the contents just in case.

I know there`s nothing in the files but GA reckons on freezing.  This wouldn`t mean frozen solid - it would just mean keeping at a temperature low enough to slow down decomposition as in the morgue.

I dont remember reading GA reckons on a freezer.  From the fluids the conclusion was she had been kept in temperature that slows down decomposition, assuming refrigeration type temperature, but no specific was given as to the device.
Unless Gerry stumbled upon an empty apt that had a freezer in it, I can't see 'you know who' allowing him to store a dead body in a chiller belonging to him or to someone he knows, or that chiller had to be thrown away after that.

Also you have to wonder why GA did not check out the unoccupied apartments in the vicinity if he'd sussed out about the freezer as storage.

/quote]

1soapy wrote:Here's a bit on the doctor - an atheist who did a documentary recreating the crucifixion with a real person on a cross. Having looked at it, I think it would be pushing boundaries of imagination if this were a method used, even by doctors, but people get ideas from all sorts of sources, e.g. books, TV, film, ...

Dee Coy wrote:

1soapy wrote:Here's a bit on the doctor - an atheist who did a documentary recreating the crucifixion with a real person on a cross. Having looked at it, I think it would be pushing boundaries of imagination if this were a method used, even by doctors, but people get ideas from all sorts of sources, e.g. books, TV, film, ...

I have often wondered, and have come to believe to be likely, that a source of inspiration could have been Phil's husband and their knowledge of his horrible fetish as a location for the final resting place. Prior to hearing about his predilection I had already come to the conclusion that a swampy bog would be a fitting place for Gerry's "Find the body..." challenge. When the revelation of the nature of Phil's husband's 'artwork' came to light the question mark was firmly slotted into place in my own mind.

As for an interim location,  would the church vaults be cool enough to slow down decomposition to the extent Dr Amaral believes was necessary to leave the type of fluids recovered from the car?

As ever, just my own speculation.

Angelique wrote:aiyoyo

"Read elsewhere industrial equipment will be brought in for dig, meaning they are thinking seriously
hard solid ground, could even be concrete ......! God only knows what's cooking but hopefully they know what they are doing."

Could it be the roadworks being carried out at the time ?

Woofer wrote:
Freezing, frozen or whatever - I can`t remember the exact word GA used, but I doubt it was frozen solid as in a home freezer - that would cause all sorts of problems for removal.  Even if chilled, leakages are going to occur, particularly from head and rear end and would easily filter through a sports bag. 

I`m not suggesting `you know who` necessarily knew of the location of apartments with chillers/freezers but he would know of corrupt undertakers who would store a body -  they would never grass.   And ... there are corrupt undertakers, believe me.  Just saying.

I agree, if it crossed GA`s mind that she was frozen/chilled or whatever and `you know who` also being a suspect at the time, were apartments checked - I doubt it.

aiyoyo wrote:

Woofer wrote:
Freezing, frozen or whatever - I can`t remember the exact word GA used, but I doubt it was frozen solid as in a home freezer - that would cause all sorts of problems for removal.  Even if chilled, leakages are going to occur, particularly from head and rear end and would easily filter through a sports bag. 

I`m not suggesting `you know who` necessarily knew of the location of apartments with chillers/freezers but he would know of corrupt undertakers who would store a body -  they would never grass.   And ... there are corrupt undertakers, believe me.  Just saying.

I agree, if it crossed GA`s mind that she was frozen/chilled or whatever and `you know who` also being a suspect at the time, were apartments checked - I doubt it.

Yes, I can believe there are corrupt undertakers...if the price is right !

Chilled will not stop decomposition, slow it down maybe, but stop - don't think so.  
Think meat kept in home fridge there is still a limited shelf life (used-by date).
There will be odour problem, so either it has to semi solid or she was moved pretty quickly from store to grave, and it wont be the 25 days lapse time, just MO.

aiyoyo wrote:
Could well be.
If they are going by phone forensics, witnesses account, etc they should have a basis when deciding on venues to dig.....

Tony Bennett wrote:

Atomic Peanut wrote:Q: Why would you announce, in a blaze of publicity, that big things are about to happen?

A: To study the reaction and movements of those who might have an interest in those developments.

A.  (a) To continue with the official narrative that has been promoted since Day One, (b) to impress the public, and (c) to justify the current £7.6 million expenditure by SY which has actually found...nothing

aiyoyo wrote:

Angelique wrote:aiyoyo

"Read elsewhere industrial equipment will be brought in for dig, meaning they are thinking seriously
hard solid ground, could even be concrete ......! God only knows what's cooking but hopefully they know what they are doing."

Could it be the roadworks being carried out at the time ?

Could well be.
If they are going by phone forensics, witnesses account, etc they should have a basis when deciding on venues to dig.....

Lance De Boils wrote:
Or perhaps local residences? There must have been properties under going 'home improvements' at the time - extensions being built, new swimming pools being put in place, patios being laid.

nobodythereeither wrote:ETA: There are a lot of people on here who seem to think they know exactly what SY are and aren't doing, and what they have/haven't found.

 I'd love to know where they are getting this information from.

Bishop Brennan wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:
Could well be.
If they are going by phone forensics, witnesses account, etc they should have a basis when deciding on venues to dig.....

If this is a genuine search.... (A very BIG if....) but let's run with it.  Then:

1. She died in 5A and was hastily buried in PDL between 9:55pm  (Smith sighting) and 10:00pm (start of search)  OR
2. She was taken from 5A, killed at some later point and buried in PDL   OR
3. She died early on the 3rd, and was taken by Gerry in a Blue Bag when walking off his achilles heel. Buried or stored in a freezer somewhere in or near to PDL.

Option 1 is impossible. There just isn't time.  Even if we allow the full 9:15pm to 10:00pm timeframe, there still isn't time.  
Option 2 is improbable (but seems to be the line SY is pushing).  How could she be buried when the world was looking for her...?
Option 3 is PM's (and others) main theory.   However it is not allowed by SY.  And it's more probable that she was moved to somewhere very remote at a later date.

As such, even if they trumpet phone forensics / witnesses etc, then of those that are known, NONE indicate that a search in PDL will be of any use.  So that takes us back to photo-party / double-checking on the 'useless' PJ / grand finale.  PDL is probably the one place she can't be...

ETA:  If they start searching way outside PDL, well then perhaps they have a chance - a phone pinging where it shouldn't for example.  But even so, that would be a long long shot. If GA is right and her body was moved by car, then she could be ANYWHERE (within the radius of the car's range).

NickE wrote:

biggles wrote:@canada12, @daffodil

Maybe there is no body.. perhaps it was cremated? That would explain why gerry is so confident that the body will not be found. I'm sure I remember reading about a vetinary in the PDL area that the body could have been taken to for the purposes of cremation, or was that discounted? Did I imagine that maybe? Agree with the freezer hypothesis.

Someone,correct me if I'm wrong here, but I have in mind that Roman Catholics do not practice cremation? 
or?

Bishop Brennan wrote:

Lance De Boils wrote:
Or perhaps local residences? There must have been properties under going 'home improvements' at the time - extensions being built, new swimming pools being put in place, patios being laid.

Yikes!  That's a lot of digging up to do...   I'm guessing the householders of PDL will be just a trifle miffed when SY appear with a giant digger:  "Just checking under your pool / extension / patio, sir - shouldn't be long.'       

If they don't have a specific tip, then digging is probably the most pointless exercise imaginable.  I'm still not convinced it will happen.  Perhaps some plods wandering around with "ground radars" and then reporting that there were no leads.   Unless AR is continuing his Grange suspect technique - "let's dig up everywhere in PDL just to eliminate each patch of ground from our enquiries..."

ChippyM wrote:

nobodythereeither wrote:ETA: There are a lot of people on here who seem to think they know exactly what SY are and aren't doing, and what they have/haven't found.

 I'd love to know where they are getting this information from.

 I agree. There are some posters here that may have more professional experience than others but at the end of the day we are all speculating and theorising because very little has actually been confirmed or denied by SY.

margaret wrote:
How do you know it's not allowed by SY? Redwood also said Maddie leaving the apartment alive may not follow with their thinking.