2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

long time lurker here

so if the 2 sightings of man with bundle/small child are to believed then where is the blue bag?

both sightings don't show blue bag so where is it ?

also would like the truth regarding one of the tapas 7 visiting kate when gerry was playing tennis

I'm sure I read that kate said he was only at door as she had just got out of shower yet he says he went in for 5 mins and saw the kids

I know that if my wife was going out at 8-30 she wouldn't get a shower so early plus I don't think she would let any friends in if she was just in a towel and me not there

all niggling things that I cannot understand

No idea about the blue bag.

But the Payne visit to see Mrs McCann draped in a towel...and more importantly see the KIDS, at the moment is the only statement that ensures that we all think that Maddie was still awake and in the apartment.Without that 'sighting', Maddie could have met her fate earlier in the day/evening.

So,perhaps, it was essential to present a 'sighting' by a non-McCann for that time in the evening.

I hope for Payne's sake that he is telling the truth and not putting himself in a very damaging position!

The blue bag was photographed in the wardrobe? cupboard? and was, therefore still there when the pj photographs were taken and was conspicuous by it's absence. It could have been used later to transport something in a discreet way and may still be hiding something or may have been disposed of.

Blue Bag....gone, but never forgotten...

soundworks wrote: also would like the truth regarding one of the tapas 7 visiting kate when gerry was playing tennis

I'm sure I read that kate said he was only at door as she had just got out of shower yet he says he went in for 5 mins and saw the kids

There is really no way that the two accounts of David Payne's alleged visit to Apartment G5A at around 6.30pm on 3 May 2007 can be reconciled. Those on the 'pro-McCann' side of the debate usually refuse to discuss it - or dismiss it out-of-hand as 'a minor inconsistency of the type you always get when people are struggling to recall what happened'.

There are as you say those two accounts and you have got the gist of it. To put a bit more detail on it:

Kate McCann says: showering when I heard knock on the front door >> put towel on >> went to answer door >>  it was David Payne >> she talked to him while he was outside the flat and she was in >> he said >> are you OK, are you bringing the kids down to watch Gerry play tennis? >> Kate said 'No >> end of story >> lasted 30 seconds

Payne says: Gerry asked me to check on Kate/to see if she was all right/to ask if she was coming down to watch Gerry play tennis (about 4 different reasons have been given for why he went there (if he did)) >> strolled through open patio door >> sat down >> chatted to Kate >> saw all the kids >> all dressed in white >> looked 'angelic' >> saw Kate with the children >> thought what a simply wonderful mother she was >> visit lasted at least several minutes >> maybe up to half an hour.

The importance of this outright contradiction cannot be over-emphasised. It is the last 'sighting' of Madeleine by anyone other than Kate and Gerry McCann.

Their statements were made very soon after Madeleine was reported missing.

This episode was glossed over in the Kate's book, 'madeleine' (page 67), as follows:

"At around 6.40, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio dooirs and I heard David's voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me, I stepped into the sititng room. David had popped his head round the patio door, looking for me. The others had met up with Gerry at the tennis courts and he'd mentioned we were thinking of bringing the kids to the play area. David had nipped up to see if he could give me a hand taking them down. As they were all ready for bed and seemed content with their books, I decided they were probably past the stage of needing any more actrvity. So he went back to the tennis while I quickly dressed and sat down on the couch with the children..

In her first statement to the PJ on 4 May, she referred to 'taking a bath' not a shower.  

So how do we explain the outright contradictions about the alleged 'Payne visit'?

I suggest these possibilities:

1. Kate had poor memory of this visit

2. David Payne had poor memory of this visit

3. Both had poor memories of this visit

4. Kate was lying

5. David Payne was lying, or

6. Both were lying.

I will say no more.

Tony Bennett wrote:

soundworks wrote: also would like the truth regarding one of the tapas 7 visiting kate when gerry was playing tennis

I'm sure I read that kate said he was only at door as she had just got out of shower yet he says he went in for 5 mins and saw the kids

There is really no way that the two accounts of David Payne's alleged visit to Apartment G5A at around 6.30pm on 3 May 2007 can be reconciled. Those on the 'pro-McCann' side of the debate usually refuse to discuss it - or dismiss it out-of-hand as 'a minor inconsistency of the type you always get when people are struggling to recall what happened'.

There are as you say those two accounts and you have got the gist of it. To put a bit more detail on it:

Kate McCann says: showering when I heard knock on the front door >> put towel on >> went to answer door >>  it was David Payne >> she talked to him while he was outside the flat and she was in >> he said >> are you OK, are you bringing the kids down to watch Gerry play tennis? >> Kate said 'No >> end of story >> lasted 30 seconds

Payne says: Gerry asked me to check on Kate/to see if she was all right/to ask if she was coming down to watch Gerry play tennis (about 4 different reasons have been given for why he went there (if he did)) >> strolled through open patio door >> sat down >> chatted to Kate >> saw all the kids >> all dressed in white >> looked 'angelic' >> saw Kate with the children >> thought what a simply wonderful mother she was >> visit lasted at least several minutes >> maybe up to half an hour.

The importance of this outright contradiction cannot be over-emphasised. It is the last 'sighting' of Madeleine by anyone other than Kate and Gerry McCann.

Their statements were made very soon after Madeleine was reported missing.

Almost unbelievably, this crucial incident was TOTALLY OMITTED from Kate McCann's 'very truthful' book, 'madeleine'.

Not only that, but at page 53 of that book, she writes: "After putting the children to bed [at about 7.30pm], Gerry and I showered, dressed and sat down with a glass of wine before heading over to the Tapas restaurant..."  

Thus, a shower at around 6.30pm (Payne visit) and ANOTHER shower at just after 7.30pm.

Unusual.

So how do we explain this outright contradiction?

I suggest these possibilities:

1. Kate had poor memory of this visit

2. David Payne had poor memory of this visit

3. Both had poor memories of this visit

4. Kate was lying

5. David payne was lying, or

6. Both were lying.

I will say no more.

And let's not forget Dr Amaral saying that he would like to know at what time David Payne bathed the children and for how long.

It's really not worth speculating why Kate would need another shower after Payne's visit   given the obviously scandalous conclusions one could draw if one where to follow that question.

@Smoke and Mirrors -  oh errr.

plebgate wrote:@Smoke and Mirrors -  oh errr.

Indeed. Just as Kate says it was 30 seconds, Payne's pride MADE him say the whole experience  visit lasted 30 minutes! In this instance I know who I believe!!

Smokeandmirrors wrote:It's really not worth speculating why Kate would need another shower after Payne's visit   given the obviously scandalous conclusions one could draw if one where to follow that question.

Oooh er indeed! hasn't it been said that they were all swingers? 

A swinging child bather? 

Smokeandmirrors wrote:

plebgate wrote:@Smoke and Mirrors -  oh errr.

Indeed. Just as Kate says it was 30 seconds, Payne's pride MADE him say the whole experience  visit lasted 30 minutes! In this instance I know who I believe!!

So do I Smoke & Mirrors, so do I.  ha ha.

happychick wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:It's really not worth speculating why Kate would need another shower after Payne's visit   given the obviously scandalous conclusions one could draw if one where to follow that question.

Oooh er indeed! hasn't it been said that they were all swingers? 

A swinging child bather? 

You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment!! (Francis Urqhuart, House of Cards)

But they do say that the Devil is in the detail…...

plebgate wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:

plebgate wrote:@Smoke and Mirrors -  oh errr.

Indeed. Just as Kate says it was 30 seconds, Payne's pride MADE him say the whole experience  visit lasted 30 minutes! In this instance I know who I believe!!

So do I Smoke & Mirrors, so do I.  ha ha.

 

It's like with anglers, a minnow suddenly turns into a pike!!

Smokeandmirrors wrote:

plebgate wrote:

Smokeandmirrors wrote:

plebgate wrote:@Smoke and Mirrors -  oh errr.

Indeed. Just as Kate says it was 30 seconds, Payne's pride MADE him say the whole experience  visit lasted 30 minutes! In this instance I know who I believe!!

So do I Smoke & Mirrors, so do I.  ha ha.

 

It's like with anglers, a minnow suddenly turns into a pike!!

Too funny.   lol, very lol.

The DP visit was omitted from CW which was interesting for what was not there  rather than for what we heard and saw.

  Readers of Kate's book will be puzzled because even if they believe the story this was a crucial event in the timeline.....and not even glossed over but expunged .

The pros cant say CW was only concentrating on important events like the checks........the DP visit was a hugely important event.

Sorry to be so picky but Kate does mention DP's visit in her book, very briefly just saying he popped his head round the door. Also in the book she mentions blow drying her hair when Gerry takes his shower, not having another shower. Again sorry to be picky but I think it's confusing enough keeping up with the twists and turns of this case .

Didnt she say she took a bath after the shower...?

Sceneset wrote:Didnt she say she took a bath after the shower...?

In her statement made to th PJ on 4/5/07 she doesn't mention a shower but says that after children in bed she had a bath.

All very confusing isn't it. Think I need to take a break now as ma heids mince. 

In an email from leicestershire police to Pj, it was stated that Payne visited 5a at 5pm, also present were kate and Gerry. There was no reason given for visit. The police were lookin at the 'missing six hours' and Payne came forward with the 6.30 statement, and Gerry and Kate suddenly remembered this. Acccording to clarrie the parents hoped this would prove their innocence. Now its disappeared. . .

Rufus T wrote:Sorry to be so picky but Kate does mention DP's visit in her book, very briefly just saying he popped his head round the door. Also in the book she mentions blow drying her hair when Gerry takes his shower, not having another shower. Again sorry to be picky but I think it's confusing enough keeping up with the twists and turns of this case .

 Right on both counts, Rufus T, I had in error read a page from a previous day, very sorry about that, have corrected my post.

I mis-remembered the shower bit, you're quite right, it was a bath in her original version of 4 May.

russiandoll wrote:The DP visit was omitted from CW which was interesting for what was not there  rather than for what we heard and saw.  Readers of Kate's book will be puzzled because even if they believe the story, this was a crucial event in the timeline....and not even glossed over but expunged

My mistake, and thanks to Rufus T for the polite correction, I had quoted from the events of a previous day - so, apologies to all on the thread:

1. The David Payne visit wasn't expunged in the book

and

2. There were not '2 showers'

In CW it was said iirc that at 6pm gerry went off to tennis while Kate stayed in to get children ready for bed. If so she is more saintly than most wives...most would be pretty unhappy to get three small kids bathed and settled while dad cleared off. It didn't ring true. Another thing: early on there was talk of Gerry injuring his Achilles heel that day. But that was rarely mentioned afterwards.

Tony Bennett wrote:

russiandoll wrote:The DP visit was omitted from CW which was interesting for what was not there  rather than for what we heard and saw.  Readers of Kate's book will be puzzled because even if they believe the story, this was a crucial event in the timeline....and not even glossed over but expunged

My mistake, and thanks to Rufus T for the polite correction, I had quoted from the events of a previous day - so, apologies to all on the thread:

1. The David Payne visit wasn't expunged in the book

and

2. There were not '2 showers'

Tony.... I gather your 2nd reply is to someone else, as I never mentioned showers.

Also I began my post by mentioning the omission of the Payne visit from CW. The end of my post where I stated that it was not just glossed over but expunged related to CW not the book [ I am very familiar with the Payne visit and all its permutations !]

 hope that clears  it up !

Another early version of that evening had G and K bathing Madeleine together and " carefully removing a trendy bead from her hair." There was talk that this was to link to the band/bead in the last photo. But then that story evaporated too.

I think the he is involved in the case more than any of the others

Im not up to date or involved as much as many on here but have tried to read lots

i came across this

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

and in particular the email from Leic police to PJ. How come DP says he last saw Madeleine at 5 pm when both Kate and Gerry were present at the apartment? I thought they were both playing tennis and Gerry told him to go check on Kate and the kids?

 Leicestershire Police: Follow up to Gaspar statements PJ Files 

Processos Vol. XIII
Pages 3909-3915

To: Ricardo Paiva - Polícia Judiciária
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL - Leicester Police Constabulary
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.

I read carefully the written statements given by David Payne but was not able to extract any other information besides what is already known.

He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann's apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. Similarly he does not indicate for how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and he cannot remember if anyone else was there.

He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon.

He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield.

He did not partake in the searches realised on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.

For many of the questions, he does not give a complete answer, affirming simply that he has already given this information/declaration to the Portuguese police.

I examined again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states that 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to, if to Gerry or her own husband.

Her responses to the written questionnaire are vague, given that, she continues to answer to the questions with "they conform to my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.

Thank you! I knew I had read that somewhere, but couldn't find it again.