forensic opportunities/god bless

by marconi 27.05.13 0:36

In my opinion, there were already forensic opportunities in 2007 and I wonder if the police found more of them, later. Somewhere in a freezer in the one of the apartments or house.

We never read somewhere that there was sand in the boots of the car. Sand with DNA. We still don't know. It is very well possible because no police tell everything before a case is solved.

And I wonder why the PJ are convinced that Kate is involved in Maddie's death. Cadaver scent in her clothes does not mean that it was Kate's guilt. It could only mean that she held her dead daughter in her arms, hugging her.

And it is strange that none of Gerry's clothes had cadaver scent. At least it is what it seems to be the case. IMO, He carried the child down the streets and no scent anywhere.

It is possible that he changed his clothes before arriving back in 5a and somebody of the Tapas hid it for him. Perhaps fearing blood stains.

by Peneda Geres 27.05.13 0:47

marconi wrote:In my opinion, there were already forensic opportunities in 2007 and I wonder if the police found more of them, later. Somewhere in a freezer in the one of the apartments or house.

We never read somewhere that there was sand in the boots of the car. Sand with DNA. We still don't know. It is very well possible because no police tell everything before a case is solved.

And I wonder why the PJ are convinced that Kate is involved in Maddie's death. Cadaver scent in her clothes does not mean that it was Kate's guilt. It could only mean that she held her dead daughter in her arms, hugging her.

And it is strange that none of Gerry's clothes had cadaver scent. At least it is what it seems to be the case. He carried the child down the streets and no scent anywhere.

It is possible that he changed his clothes before arriving back in 5a and somebody of the Tapas hid it for him. Perhaps fearing blood stains.

If indeed the sighting of Gerry is authentic, then you must remember, he had access to a number of children, who as we know are all still alive.

Edit to add, wasn't it Sean he was carrying off the plane when Mr Smith recognised him?

by marconi 27.05.13 4:53

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Perhaps Gerry took those clothes with him, when he went back to England to pick up Maddie's tooth brush.
That was the reason why he said there was no proper DNA in 5a. Maybe also to destroy incriminating evidence of something.

by aiyoyo 27.05.13 6:15

Logic dictates that the Mrs cant be the only one handling the body and/or disposing of it ALONE.
So logical deduction tells us that Mr must have disposed of his clothing, meaning there were more on his clothes than just cadaverine perfume and he knew it so he did what all criminals (even stupid ones no exception) would have done ie got rid of them.

by **tigger** 27.05.13 6:36

Peneda Geres wrote:
marconi wrote:In my opinion, there were already forensic opportunities in 2007 and I wonder if the police found more of them, later. Somewhere in a freezer in the one of the apartments or house.

We never read somewhere that there was sand in the boots of the car. Sand with DNA. We still don't know. It is very well possible because no police tell everything before a case is solved.

And I wonder why the PJ are convinced that Kate is involved in Maddie's death. Cadaver scent in her clothes does not mean that it was Kate's guilt. It could only mean that she held her dead daughter in her arms, hugging her.

And it is strange that none of Gerry's clothes had cadaver scent. At least it is what it seems to be the case. He carried the child down the streets and no scent anywhere.

It is possible that he changed his clothes before arriving back in 5a and somebody of the Tapas hid it for him. Perhaps fearing blood stains.

If indeed the sighting of Gerry is authentic, then you must remember, he had access to a number of children, who as we know are all still alive.

Edit to add, wasn't it Sean he was carrying off the plane when Mr Smith recognised him?

You're all making great points here - it has recently occurred to me that a well sedated Sean (for which condition we have lots of corroborative statements) who did have longish hair at the time and was very blond, unlike Maddie, would be the preferred decoy.
Gerry seemed very smug to me and I thought that was because he never actively took part in the disposal.
But there was the bag of clothes, jeans and a fleece found although I thought those were a woman's clothes and as JT is very informative on the fact that she didn't bring jeans and had to borrow ROB's fleece I assumed that these were hers.
Great point though, Sean makes a lot more sense. Was that one of the reasons to insist so much on them still being small enough for cots?
Kate's contaminated clothes could also be explained as having been in contact with Gerry's and then we have to consider those bruises on her arms. Which imo are restraining bruises.
The bag of clothes surfaced in November I think - it's in the timelines for November to January. iirc.

by Snifferdog 27.05.13 7:40

tigger wrote:
Peneda Geres wrote:
marconi wrote:In my opinion, there were already forensic opportunities in 2007 and I wonder if the police found more of them, later. Somewhere in a freezer in the one of the apartments or house.

We never read somewhere that there was sand in the boots of the car. Sand with DNA. We still don't know. It is very well possible because no police tell everything before a case is solved.

And I wonder why the PJ are convinced that Kate is involved in Maddie's death. Cadaver scent in her clothes does not mean that it was Kate's guilt. It could only mean that she held her dead daughter in her arms, hugging her.

And it is strange that none of Gerry's clothes had cadaver scent. At least it is what it seems to be the case. He carried the child down the streets and no scent anywhere.

It is possible that he changed his clothes before arriving back in 5a and somebody of the Tapas hid it for him. Perhaps fearing blood stains.

If indeed the sighting of Gerry is authentic, then you must remember, he had access to a number of children, who as we know are all still alive.

Edit to add, wasn't it Sean he was carrying off the plane when Mr Smith recognised him?

You're all making great points here - it has recently occurred to me that a well sedated Sean (for which condition we have lots of corroborative statements) who did have longish hair at the time and was very blond, unlike Maddie, would be the preferred decoy.
Gerry seemed very smug to me and I thought that was because he never actively took part in the disposal.
But there was the bag of clothes, jeans and a fleece found although I thought those were a woman's clothes and as JT is very informative on the fact that she didn't bring jeans and had to borrow ROB's fleece I assumed that these were hers.
Great point though, Sean makes a lot more sense. Was that one of the reasons to insist so much on them still being small enough for cots?
Kate's contaminated clothes could also be explained as having been in contact with Gerry's and then we have to consider those bruises on her arms. Which imo are restraining bruises.
The bag of clothes surfaced in November I think - it's in the timelines for November to January. iirc.

Aargh just lost post! Just want to say its great to have imput from new posters! roses

I agree that Peneda and Marconi have made some very interesting new comments and points. As Gerry said; "Confusion is good". I do wonder why he actually sais this as quite incriminating imo - must have been a slip of the tongue imo. Kate definitely was aware that Shaun was drugged and is why she was continiously checking on his breating imo.

by Guest 27.05.13 10:53

marconi wrote:
And I wonder why the PJ are convinced that Kate is involved in Maddie's death. Cadaver scent in her clothes does not mean that it was Kate's guilt. It could only mean that she held her dead daughter in her arms, hugging her.

Kate was Madeleine's mother.

Speaking for myself as a mother (and on behalf of all the mothers I know) if you kill my child, I will make it my life's work to hunt you down and destroy you. The same is true of fathers but not to that deep visceral extent.

Putting myself in Kate's place, if anyone else had been responsible for Maddies death ...even Gerry ...even by accident, I would be screaming it from the rooftops.

Kate's silence says more than her words ever have.

by Ayniia 30.05.13 22:05

tigger wrote:
You're all making great points here - it has recently occurred to me that a well sedated Sean (for which condition we have lots of corroborative statements) who did have longish hair at the time and was very blond, unlike Maddie, would be the preferred decoy.
Gerry seemed very smug to me and I thought that was because he never actively took part in the disposal.
But there was the bag of clothes, jeans and a fleece found although I thought those were a woman's clothes and as JT is very informative on the fact that she didn't bring jeans and had to borrow ROB's fleece I assumed that these were hers.
Great point though, Sean makes a lot more sense. Was that one of the reasons to insist so much on them still being small enough for cots?
Kate's contaminated clothes could also be explained as having been in contact with Gerry's and then we have to consider those bruises on her arms. Which imo are restraining bruises.
The bag of clothes surfaced in November I think - it's in the timelines for November to January. iirc.

I don't think Sean, I think Amelie. Always bothered me that the Mcs talk about the twins,about Sean...not about Amelie. It's like they wanted people to "forget" about her and we know they don't say/don't say anything by pure chance.
Regarding the bag of clothes, I don't believe it was more than gossip intended to scare Tanner/ROB. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by **tigger** 31.05.13 5:08

Ayniia wrote:
tigger wrote:
You're all making great points here - it has recently occurred to me that a well sedated Sean (for which condition we have lots of corroborative statements) who did have longish hair at the time and was very blond, unlike Maddie, would be the preferred decoy.
Gerry seemed very smug to me and I thought that was because he never actively took part in the disposal.
But there was the bag of clothes, jeans and a fleece found although I thought those were a woman's clothes and as JT is very informative on the fact that she didn't bring jeans and had to borrow ROB's fleece I assumed that these were hers.
Great point though, Sean makes a lot more sense. Was that one of the reasons to insist so much on them still being small enough for cots?
Kate's contaminated clothes could also be explained as having been in contact with Gerry's and then we have to consider those bruises on her arms. Which imo are restraining bruises.
The bag of clothes surfaced in November I think - it's in the timelines for November to January. iirc.

I don't think Sean, I think Amelie. Always bothered me that the Mcs talk about the twins,about Sean...not about Amelie. It's like they wanted people to "forget" about her and we know they don't say/don't say anything by pure chance.
Regarding the bag of clothes, I don't believe it was more than gossip intended to scare Tanner/ROB. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'd still go for Sean who was much bigger and could pass for a 3 yr old easily. Amelie was petite.
We don't know about the bag of clothes, whether it is true or not. But imo there is corroborating evidence in JT's insistence in the rogatory that she didn't have jeans with her and also had to borrow a fleece which presumably she didn't have with her. Thus focussing attention on the very items said to have been found in the bag.
If she didn't have these items with her, why mention it? There must have been a lot of other items she didn't have with her. She wasn't asked it she had those items with her, the information was volunteered.

by russiandoll 11.07.13 12:46

As a result of twitter abuse of McCann doubters READ THE FILES ! it was not 15 out of 19 but 15 out of 37 components!
I have read and re-read what I believe is all the forensic info made public and can find no ref to a number 37.
Would be grateful if anyone could point me to it, thanks.

I did find the following, which is all I have ever read re the components :

NUIPC 201/070 GALGS
4th Brigade
Inspector Joao Carlos

Date: 11-09-2007

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

This note serves to proceed to annex the report of a laboratory examination carried out in England, written in English and translated into Portuguese, delivered to this police force on 4th September 2007 by the British police officer Stuart Prior.

This laboratory report states with regard to the examinations carried out on two collections of samples, one from behind the living room sofa of apartment 5 A and the other from the boot of the hire car used by the McCanns from the end of May of this year.

In both of these collections (samples) DNA was found with components that are also found in Madeleine McCann’s DNA.

As regards the vestiges collected from behind the sofa all of the confirmed DNA components coincide with the corresponding components of Madeleine McCann’s DNA profile.

In the sample collected from the boot of the vehicle 15 of the identified DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in Madeleine McCann’s DNA profile, which has 19 components.

Portimao 11th September 2007

by sheila.edwards 11.07.13 14:51

I think as sample was a 3person mix they did not have all 37 and that is why result by experts was ?genuine or ?chance match to maddys and rendered inconclusive. I read it as 15/19 alles out of possible 37:spin:sample was taken from an area alerted by dogs!
:spin:different countries accept different results as evidence as far as I could gather so imo we may hear of this again !:spin:spin: : as portugals bar seemed to be highest from what I read usa lowest.!

by **tigger** 11.07.13 15:07

sheila.edwards wrote:
I think as sample was a 3person mix they did not have all 37 and that is why result by experts was ?genuine or ?chance match to maddys and rendered inconclusive. I read it as 15/19 alles out of possible 37:spin:sample was taken from an area alerted by dogs!
:spin:different countries accept different results as evidence as far as I could gather so imo we may hear of this again !:spin:spin: : as portugals bar seemed to be highest from what I read usa lowest.!

It's interesting that the DNA evidence went down the drain (literally) as there is no absolute guarantee that the alleged DNA collected from a pillowcase in Madeleine's bedroom in Rothley was really hers. There was no DNA of Maddie available in PdL.

by jd 11.07.13 15:15

Why would there ever be a need to go back to the UK to get DNA when the person had been living in the PDL apartment for a week!!!! From Maddie's bed sheets, her clothes (the pink dress in the poolside photo would have been perfect if this dress ever existed), pink tracksuit bottoms etc, cuddle cat...oh yes, kate mccann had them all washed asap

I think I am right in saying that there was no DNA from any of the women in apartment 5a (except kate mccann) but there was DNA from all the men.....

by russiandoll 11.07.13 16:45

thank you Sheila, but I still can't find any ref to the number 37 and do not know where this figure comes from or to what it refers. I read the letter I posted as there having been found 15 out of 19 components.
I do not understand what you have written 15/19 out of 37 ? what do the numbers 15 /19 refer to in relation to this figure of 37? Would be grateful if you could give a further explanation or post me to wherever you found these results.

thanks again, am searching and attempting to sort out the DNA results because of the constant refs to us doubters as stupid because we misinterpret the results deliberately to suit an agenda.

by Praiaaa 11.07.13 17:02

The jeans/fleece thing has always bothered me, as Jane T is precisely a jeans and fleece woman! Two small kids, travelling to a place where the weather was not much warmer than the UK - of course she would have worn jeans and a fleece - what else would she have taken??? The woman is hardly Victoria Beckham travelling to Elton's yacht in the Med in August...
If I had been in the PJ big grin

I would have quizzed them all about their clothes - may be a girl thing?

by russiandoll 11.07.13 17:10

and JT was not heard by Gezza or Jez, despite her flip- flopping along the street.
They must have been having one heck of an engrossing conversation.

by jd 11.07.13 17:13

Quote...."the bag contained a blue fleece jacket and a pair of adult jeans with traces of DNA that contained "moderate" links to the missing four-year-old"

From jane tanners RI 8th April 2008, she states:
4078 “It is a long time ago, I know, we have already discussed the feasibility of this. But describe, not just that you saw Gerry up the road, describe what route you take and what you can see and what you can hear and whether it is light or dark and any other noises that you are conscious of”.
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “I know it is a tall order”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “But just do the best you can”.
Reply “Yeah. Erm, I’m just trying to, well I’ve walked out of the, walked out of the, erm, the Tap, you know, walked sort of into the reception of the Tapas Bar and obviously walked up the road. I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans, I know I didn’t take jeans on holiday, and then. Oh I’m sidetracking a bit, but that’s why I knew one of the pictures in the paper wasn’t from the holiday, because I hadn’t got jeans on the holiday with me, so. Erm, yeah, and I’d got cropped trousers on and just flip-flops, so I can remember sort of walking, I couldn’t walk that quickly because I’d got these silly flip-flops on and I couldn’t walk that, that well in them, so to speak. " ......The important headline 6 months prior: MADDIE DNA: TRACES FOUND ON FLEECE AND STAINED JEANS

When asked to describe the route she took and what she saw and heard....why does Russell's fleece come to mind and also not taking jeans on holiday?

Maddie DNA clue in airport bag News of the World

Traces found on fleece and stained jeans

By Dominic Herbert

A BAG of clothes containing DNA linked to Madeleine McCann has been found dumped by a road in Portugal. The white carrier bag was discovered in a layby two weeks ago near Faro airport, the News of the World can reveal.
Maddie's parents Kate and Gerry McCann have learned the bag contained a blue fleece jacket and a pair of adult jeans with traces of DNA that contained "moderate" links to the missing four-year-old. There was also a SHOWER CURTAIN inside.

Meanwhile, the bag, found by a passer-by, was sent to a UK lab in Birmingham for forensic tests. A leaked report showed experts concluded the clothes contained bodily fluid and traces of hair that could have come from Maddie.

Other items recovered from the bag included a white flannel, a green elastic band, a light green child's T-shirt with a green flower on the front and a pink and blue pencil case with a pink heart motif. A source said: "The bag could be crucial.

"The DNA isn't an exact match to Maddie's, but it does link. It is the first clue found outside the apartment complex and could provide a trail."
The report—which was handed to detectives ten days ago—was obtained by the News of the World from Portuguese police sources. The jeans contained more than 60 different stains.
The report concluded: "The blue fleece and jeans were found to contain traces of congealed skin and hair. They were found to contain DNA characteristics that could be attributed to Madeleine McCann." No traces of Maddie's DNA were found on any of the other items.

Newspaper reports suggest that the McCanns will consider sueing the Portugese police for £1 million if they are eventually released from their arguido status without charge.
unquote

by sheila.edwards 11.07.13 23:39

. surely it would have been police who collected samples in uk not GM ? is that why uncertainty:spin:they must have dna they think Is hers, they checked sightings dna:spin: .

by Kepharel 12.07.13 1:54

russiandoll wrote:As a result of twitter abuse of McCann doubters READ THE FILES ! it was not 15 out of 19 but 15 out of 37 components!
I have read and re-read what I believe is all the forensic info made public and can find no ref to a number 37.
Would be grateful if anyone could point me to it, thanks.

I did find the following, which is all I have ever read re the components :

NUIPC 201/070 GALGS
4th Brigade
Inspector Joao Carlos

Date: 11-09-2007

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

This note serves to proceed to annex the report of a laboratory examination carried out in England, written in English and translated into Portuguese, delivered to this police force on 4th September 2007 by the British police officer Stuart Prior.

This laboratory report states with regard to the examinations carried out on two collections of samples, one from behind the living room sofa of apartment 5 A and the other from the boot of the hire car used by the McCanns from the end of May of this year.

In both of these collections (samples) DNA was found with components that are also found in Madeleine McCann’s DNA.

As regards the vestiges collected from behind the sofa all of the confirmed DNA components coincide with the corresponding components of Madeleine McCann’s DNA profile.

In the sample collected from the boot of the vehicle 15 of the identified DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in Madeleine McCann’s DNA profile, which has 19 components.

Portimao 11th September 2

When in doubt...get it in writing......preferably from a reliable source....

by Lostfridge 12.07.13 11:29

tigger wrote:
sheila.edwards wrote:
I think as sample was a 3person mix they did not have all 37 and that is why result by experts was ?genuine or ?chance match to maddys and rendered inconclusive. I read it as 15/19 alles out of possible 37:spin:sample was taken from an area alerted by dogs!
:spin:different countries accept different results as evidence as far as I could gather so imo we may hear of this again !:spin:spin: : as portugals bar seemed to be highest from what I read usa lowest.!

It's interesting that the DNA evidence went down the drain (literally) as there is no absolute guarantee that the alleged DNA collected from a pillowcase in Madeleine's bedroom in Rothley was really hers. There was no DNA of Maddie available in PdL.

Why on earth did the PJ ever allow Gerry to leave the country! to collect DNA for Maddie!!. If you have 5 people in an apartment and the only one you cant get confirmed DNA for is the one that is now missing, surely that's a red flag to investigate WHY! and like hell would you let the father travel to England. Was Gerry accompanied by a PJ officer to the UK?>

by Guest 12.07.13 12:25

First time I've read about these items that have been collected, has anyone else?

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Posters words:
This post by Ines on MM really gives me the creeps, the PJ were collecting these items in December 2007? The blanket sounds like Madeleine's ...a piece of child's clothing, only one shoe, one sock..torn bin bags what?

Does anyone know where these items were recovered from?

Outros Apensos IV; vol 2.

Pages 285 - 287

Guide

Complainant : PJ

Arguido: Robert Murat and others

NUIPC: 201/07.0 Galgs, Section: 4th Brigade. Inspector Joao Carlos

The undersigned officer remits the following articles to the PJ:

Portimao 14 December 2007

To be Deposited:

1. An envelope containing one elastic band made of synthetic material, used to tie hair.

2. An envelope containing one plastic bag from C.M in Lagos and one woven bag containing a stone.

3. An envelope containing a green children’s jacket with the label “Saccor”, size 4 and a child’s vest, with the label Palomino, size 98 with a floral pattern.

4. An envelope containing a pink and orangey brown blanket.

5. An envelope containing a pair of “Chico” children’s sports shoes.

6. A plastic bag from the “Alisuper” supermarket containing various items of clothing, namely a checked shirt, two pairs of trousers and three empty and torn bin bags.

7. An envelope containing one pair of blue and grey children’s socks.

8. A plastic bag containing baby toys.

9. An envelope containing six buccal swabs with samples, supposedly blood (Rua 25 de Abril nº 14, P da L).

10. An envelope containing one blue and red Clarkes sports shoe.

11. An envelope containing a pink child’s sock.

12. An envelope containing a cotton “corpete”, edged with a floral border.

13. An envelope containing a red and white piece of child’s clothing.

Handwritten note referring to item 1

On 9th May 2007 at 06.00 a police officer from Aljezur found (at the back of Maddie’s parents bedroom) an elastic hair band abandoned/dropped on the floor

by Guest 13.07.13 9:38

OFFICIAL INQUIRY FILES and DOCUMENTS
SUNDRY FINDING CLOTHES SHOES BAGS

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Some items are stated where found and by who, others are less clear where they have been collected from, all very confusing!.