Re: Missing Tia Sharp

by grove39 11.08.12 15:16

i lived on that estate about 6 years ago for about 12 months, i hated the place but due to my personal situation at the time it was my only option, i've only been back to that estate once in 5 years .

you can stand pretty much anywhere on that estate and throw a stone and i could guarantee you you'd hit a house with people just like these in them.

crime is the main occupation on that estate, people do have jobs etc but mostly they are all scumbags.

also while i was living there i did have a problem with one of the neighbours kids who thought it was fine to play football in my front garden, i went to talk to their parents about it and about 30 minutes after i had the dad who didnt look much different to half the people you've seen on TV came to my house with a baseball bat wanting to kill me because he said his kids should be able to do whatever they like cos i was an "outsider" who had no right to say anything to anybody who lived there.

thats the kind of mentality around that area, they are all the same and the generation who live there now are no different to their parents who pretty much also live on the same estate.

the next generation of these families will be exactly the same as nobody there has any idea how to better themselves and get out.

by ProfessorPPlum 11.08.12 15:29

Smokeandmirrors wrote:I've been following this on DigitalSpy, although not all of the hundreds of pages of posts! I did just want to mention that there were loads of people commenting that no-one should jump to conclusions or be judgemental about the type of family, neighbourhood etc and it was making me quite cross really. Whilst we might not have got every detail spot-on (certainly based on what has been thus far confirmed via the news), many people have been pretty bang-on from the off. Our instincts and ability to read situations is overall pretty good as is panning out as the days go by - so what exactly IS wrong with being judgemental?

I make no apologies for be as judgemental as hell - in early middle age, I have had plenty of time to observe behaviours and consequences, as have very many. We have often used our suspicions and judgements wisely, and one might even go as far to say that on occasions our judgements have helped us divert potentially dangerous situations. History shows us that time and time again, our initial observations ad judgements are entirely worthy. So why oh why do some faux do-gooders persist in hectoring us with the notion that it is wrong to make value judgements and have opinions about characteristics and behaviours which we know damn well are not conducive to decent and harmonious living?

This case has so far vindicated "judgemental" thinking. What do others think of this??

I know I'm a bit late on this but I just wanted to say that sums me up completely. My judgment has served me very well and I trust my intuition because it's never been wrong. I'm not going to dismiss that knowledge / ability for any text-book idea about being 'non-judgmental'. What I try not to do is underestimate people, value them less or treat them differently because of any judgment I form about them.

ETA: Actually, not true. My intuition is *mostly* right. I admit I was wrong in the first instance about the Philpotts - however I kind of let myself off there because I actually don't believe they intended to kill their children at all so the grief I observed was, I think, genuine.

by EnfysB 11.08.12 15:52

A few days ago according to media reports, the 'last person to see Tia' was supposedly a woman 'neighbour'. The reports claimed she had seen Tia leaving her grandmother's home around the same time as Hazell claimed she had gone out, giving a description of her clothing etc. I am not going to name her here but IIRC there was also a video in which she spoke, although I can't find that now so I could be mistaken. Other earlier online news articles (in a paragraph that now seems to rapidly be getting 'whooshed' but is currently still viewable in some articles and remains present in cached versions of others) also quoted 'next door neighbour' 'Paul Meehan, 39'- there is no mention in the news reports of any claim on his part to have seen Tia that I can find, but he is reported as saying something else (unrelated to the 'sighting') that is again similar to something the 'woman neighbour' is reported to have said. I'm not elaborating more here as it is potentially sensitive but anyone interested can see what I have (GIYF- have just checked and the quote from PM is now appearing in 1 cache version only as far as I can see- if you do find it, please don't post any more detail about this than I have, here or in any other public forum). Mistaken identity on the part of the woman neighbour and sheer coincidence about the other similarity, or connection? This seems quite odd to me...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9455423/Missing-schoolgirl-Tia-Sharp-looked-happy-and-relaxed-claims-last-person-to-see-her.htmlRe

edit- have just checked the above link and that whole article now seems to have disappeared...

re-edit- no its still there at the above link- I managed to add an extra bit on the end that messed up the link. the correct version is below. but mod/s, please still edit/delete this post if you think necessary!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9455423/Missing-schoolgirl-Tia-Sharp-looked-happy-and-relaxed-claims-last-person-to-see-her.html

by One 11.08.12 16:34

Human Error delayed the discovery of the body..

by EnfysB 11.08.12 16:36

One wrote:Human Error delayed the discovery of the body..

http://www.itn.co.uk/UK/52993/police-admit-human-error-in-tia-case

by Smokeandmirrors 11.08.12 16:42

Cristobell wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
It all seems to fall under the heading of 'don't question authority', and this makes me uncomfortable. The law makers and enforcers are not infallible, and history has shown that they are not always to be trusted. How can you gauge public opinion, if opinion is forbidden by law?

One of my main interests in the case of the McCanns is the threat to freedom of speech. It has now reached a stage where we are now unable to exchange ideas due to draconian libel laws and we have reached the ridiculous situation where people can be imprisoned merely for voicing their opinion. Next step, Thought Police?

I felt sick to the stomach when I watched the interview with Stuart Hazell, as I am sure many others did too, but we were reminded (even on here actually) not to speculate. As you say Smokeandmirrors, we have life experience and many of us have studied psychology and human behaviour, why then are our opinions not valid? Or worse, not allowed?

Quite so. I appreciate Candyfloss's comment on Chris Jefferies, although the circumstances surrounding that case were a bit different I agree that people can and do get it wrong.

Where this case appeared to be different is that this family seemed to feel it acceptable for someone convicted of serious crimes was suitable not only for two generations of women to shack up with, but to leave a young girl alone with. When Hazell claimed "everyone has a shady past" it had chilling echoes to a similar proclamation made by rather different people in a case we are all oh-so familiar with.

I suppose that what has really riled me about this case outside of the expected sadness that a young girl has lost her life so prematurely, is that there seems to be such a growing mass of individuals in this country who lead such horrid, irresponsible lives. We all have free will and regardless of any excuses of birth and circumstance, the way we choose to live our life especially in adulthood, is 100% our individual responsibility. We saw a similar set of values surrounding the Matthews case, yet hoards more people living lives not conducive to anything decent and largely a huge drain on the patience and finances of normal people. There seem to be no boundaries anymore, and society always seems to seek the lowering of standards, facilitation/funding of these sorts of lifestyles and browbeats those who are just fed up of this growing swell of the underclass (I use this term as the REAL working class to my way of thinking need to be separated from the feckless hooligans).

If the state seeks to control what we think and do, this is the group to start with.

We do indeed have free will, but if it is not backed by education and guidance, it can go awry. The majority of those in prison are illiterate.

It is too simple to blame all of society's ills on the underclass, and financially they are not the ones draining the economy - far more is creamed off at the top. Sadly, those children born to poor dysfunctional families will continue to fall out of education system and normal society, unless we address the heart of the problem. We now have families where generations have never worked and will never work, because they lack social skills, moral guidance and a basic education.

Stuart Hazell is perhaps one of the worst examples of this underclass. Clearly uneducated, it is unlikely that he was raised in a family that encouraged education and a lifelong career. However, I am not making excuses for him, this is not a petty crime. I believe him to be evil and manipulative, and I should be allowed to say that.

I passionately believe in parenting classes, in fact, I would go so far as to include parenting in the National Curriculum, we need to reach future mums and dads before the damage is done, and sadly this is often before little ones reach school age. I am sure many of us have encountered mini thugs in nurseries and day centres, children taught to settle disagreements with fists and violence. By the time they reach school, they are often beyond control. Their futures are predicable.

Just to add to my 'nanny state' views, lol, I would also bring in free school meals for all children.

I agree about addressing the heart of the problem, just feeling quite cantankerous and belligerent about it all, particularly when children are being pulled down by the generational failures inflicted on them. Somehow, and hopefully soon, the whole sorry cycle of shabby behaviour and standards needs to be cracked down on hard. The sympathetic liberal type approach is failing miserably, in fact it seems to be encouraging the problem. Tough love is the way to go. By all means, support individuals through periods of greatest need, but couple it with the instillation of an ideology of genuine self improvement, not necessarily monetary, but in living moral, safe and secure lives, served up with a hefty dose of "do as you would be done by". (Goodness, I'm feeling like a sanctimonious old boot today! - this has really got to me ) sad

by **PeterMac** 11.08.12 16:44

Cristobell wrote:
We do indeed have free will, but if it is not backed by education and guidance, it can go awry. The majority of those in prison are illiterate.

It is too simple to blame all of society's ills on the underclass, and financially they are not the ones draining the economy - far more is creamed off at the top. Sadly, those children born to poor dysfunctional families will continue to fall out of education system and normal society, unless we address the heart of the problem. We now have families where generations have never worked and will never work, because they lack social skills, moral guidance and a basic education.

Stuart Hazell is perhaps one of the worst examples of this underclass. Clearly uneducated, it is unlikely that he was raised in a family that encouraged education and a lifelong career. However, I am not making excuses for him, this is not a petty crime. I believe him to be evil and manipulative, and I should be allowed to say that.

I passionately believe in parenting classes, in fact, I would go so far as to include parenting in the National Curriculum, we need to reach future mums and dads before the damage is done, and sadly this is often before little ones reach school age. I am sure many of us have encountered mini thugs in nurseries and day centres, children taught to settle disagreements with fists and violence. By the time they reach school, they are often beyond control. Their futures are predicable.

Just to add to my 'nanny state' views, lol, I would also bring in free school meals for all children.

What we must also always remember is that these people are not only illiterate and ill educated. They are also very stupid. They have low IQs.
Intelligence across a large population follows the normal or Gaussian distribution.

For every person on the right there is one on the left. For every Nobel prize winner there is someone who cannot operate outside an institution.
Two thirds of the population, so the majority, lie within 1 standard deviation from the mean, and have IQs between 85 and 115.
In the old days an IQ of 100, exactly average, brought you 5 good O levels. Since it was decreed that half of all children should go to University, it necessarily follows that the IQ necessary for entrance is 100. (Socialists have never understood this.)

To become a professional in any field implies an IQ towards or beyond the upper range on the right, 115 - 130, (between 1 and 2 standard deviations)
BUT
for every one of those, there is another at equal distance from the mean on the left of the graph.
with an IQ of between 85 and 70.
People with IQs of 70 find it hard to learn to read. (Yes, I am aware that there are other reading problems which are unrelated, but that statement is generally correct.)
They find it impossible to think of "delayed gratification'. They live for the moment. They have limited concentration spans, and so on
And what the welfare state has done, with its free housing, free education, free "benefits" for being unemployed, is to allow people with low IQs to divest themselves of any responsibility for themselves and their futures.

by Guest 11.08.12 16:44

Interesting EnfysB. "Human Error" - that won't please the McCann followers desperate for the dogs to get the blame. I think they have been wrong on just about everything in this case (and other cases Missing Tia Sharp - Page 17 160807

)

by Nina 11.08.12 16:55

EnfysB wrote:
One wrote:Human Error delayed the discovery of the body..

http://www.itn.co.uk/UK/52993/police-admit-human-error-in-tia-case

Quote from the link,

In total four scene examinations were made at the property on the New Addington estate, near Croydon, including a two hour search on August 5 which covered the location where the body was eventually discovered.

So they had already covered the location where her body was eventually discovered, and missed it. The mind boggles.

by Guest 11.08.12 16:55

Mr Mac and Cristobell, aren't we all following a case in which the players are all professionals, not the disadvantaged? There are good and bad people in all environments - we as followers of this case should know that.

by **PeterMac** 11.08.12 16:58

Which is why they have done so well thus far. And why the heavens will crash in on them all when the truth is revealed.

by Smokeandmirrors 11.08.12 17:02

PeterMac wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
We do indeed have free will, but if it is not backed by education and guidance, it can go awry. The majority of those in prison are illiterate.

It is too simple to blame all of society's ills on the underclass, and financially they are not the ones draining the economy - far more is creamed off at the top. Sadly, those children born to poor dysfunctional families will continue to fall out of education system and normal society, unless we address the heart of the problem. We now have families where generations have never worked and will never work, because they lack social skills, moral guidance and a basic education.

Stuart Hazell is perhaps one of the worst examples of this underclass. Clearly uneducated, it is unlikely that he was raised in a family that encouraged education and a lifelong career. However, I am not making excuses for him, this is not a petty crime. I believe him to be evil and manipulative, and I should be allowed to say that.

I passionately believe in parenting classes, in fact, I would go so far as to include parenting in the National Curriculum, we need to reach future mums and dads before the damage is done, and sadly this is often before little ones reach school age. I am sure many of us have encountered mini thugs in nurseries and day centres, children taught to settle disagreements with fists and violence. By the time they reach school, they are often beyond control. Their futures are predicable.

Just to add to my 'nanny state' views, lol, I would also bring in free school meals for all children.
What we must also always remember is that these people are not only illiterate and ill educated. They are also very stupid. They have low IQs.
Intelligence across a large population follows the normal or Gaussian distribution.

For every person on the right there is one on the left. For every Nobel prize winner there is someone who cannot operate outside an institution.
Two thirds of the population, so the majority, lie within 1 standard deviation from the mean, and have IQs between 85 and 115.
In the old days an IQ of 100, exactly average, brought you 5 good O levels. Since it was decreed that half of all children should go to University, it necessarily follows that the IQ necessary for entrance is 100. (Socialists have never understood this.)

To become a professional in any field implies an IQ towards or beyond the upper range on the right, 115 - 130, (between 1 and 2 standard deviations)
BUT
for every one of those, there is another at equal distance from the mean on the left of the graph.
with an IQ of between 85 and 70.
People with IQs of 70 find it hard to learn to read. (Yes, I am aware that there are other reading problems which are unrelated, but that statement is generally correct.)
They find it impossible to think of "delayed gratification'. They live for the moment. They have limited concentration spans, and so on
And what the welfare state has done, with its free housing, free education, free "benefits" for being unemployed, is to allow people with low IQs to divest themselves of any responsibility for themselves and their futures.

And of course they have all the time in the world to go forth an multiply at a rate of knots. I dread to think what our society will be like in another two or three generations - it's the stuff of nightmares. There is a "mother" in our locality that has had 8 children (by 6 fathers) taken away, two of her ex-partners have also had children taken into care, and there is another on the way. None have ever done a stitch of work in their lives, and are quite frankly unemployable anyway nah

by Spaniel 11.08.12 17:12

Nina wrote:
Spaniel wrote:
tigger wrote:
Spaniel wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:It is,believe me, heard it on the radio that Christine Bicknell was her real name, the person lists themselves as 46, picture of Tia, it isn't anyone else.
Picture of Tia on her facebook, were her other grandchildren featured too? Granny also had Tia in large letters tattoed across her foot, with no sign of the other grandchildren's names.

I was just about to post on that, the tattoo looks very fresh and dark. My betting is it was done very, very recently. This act of repentance reminds me of other such acts - a tattoo or a sudden revelation of the true faith? Either one will do as a penance - or proof of innocence?
The tattoo is so black, I read the article expecting it to be permanent marker. Perhaps then the pic on FB was a recent addition as well.

For some reason I cannot access it but I am rather concerned that she has her grandaughter's photograph on public view, is this normal practice?

Possibly the "tattoo" and picture were added after Tia went missing. Part of the public suffering, as in printed T-shirts and the lighted candle ceremony.

It's part of the "look at me" section of society, spawned by talent shows, and then realising they don't have a talent to discover, fostered/festered by the likes of facebook where they post minutiae of their daily lives and gossip about all the others who don't work.

I read, but don't know if true that as a "community" whole familes went out searching, with no regard as what their kids might stumble upon. I daresay they set SkyPlus to catch a glimpse of themselves later. The only time they would feel that they are recognised for doing something worthwhile.

This is the problem for many who don't contribute by not working and I don't mean mums or dads who care for children, but to be handed money for nothing is never the same as earning it.

There is no such thing as an unemployed painter and decorator, as grandad was supposedly. If he could go up a ladder, he could work. Look at the success Kevin Wells made from cleaning windows.

While the garden was overgrown, he left granny to do a darned hard job as a carer. She must have been desperate for a bloke to go to work for him.

Seen on Sky News:

"Christine Sharp very often provided accommodation for Tia at weekends. She told us when we spoke to her on Monday that Tia used her home as a bit of a refuge."

Some refuge.

"Provided accomodation"? That sounds like Tia wasn't welcome in her own home. Her mother's not going to come out of this whiter than white either.

by OpenMind 11.08.12 17:20

I like to take folk as I find them, so from day one I found the "step-grandad", who used to date the grandmother's daughter, who served a year for brandishing a machete, and a previous 2 1/2 years for dealing crack cocaine, who believes "we all have previous", to be a thug and a good-for-nothing ner-do-well, who I would not want within a million miles of my kids at any time, let alone left solely responsible for them on a regular basis.

The parents have to take some responsibility for this tragedy, as they failed to safeguard their daughter. Although bought up by a mother who uses facebook to spout hatred and vileness, maybe the mother knows no better.

On a completely different note, as a mother of 3 happy children in a successfully "blended" family, I was a little upset by one comment on here which condemned mothers of young children bringing new partners into their children's lives. On the contrary, if the situation is handled with care, consideration firstly for the children's happiness and wellbeing and planned and monitored in an objective and adult way, happy families can be created from the ruins of broken homes. My children's beaming faces and happy outlook would confirm this. Committed relationships / marriage still make the best platforms from which children can grow (my humble opinion!!!)

Serial monogamy and partner swapping amongst relatives however, I would agree is wrong and I wonder if Tia ever stood a chance with the dysfunction all around her. RIP Tia x

by EnfysB 11.08.12 17:38

tcat wrote:Interesting EnfysB. "Human Error" - that won't please the McCann followers desperate for the dogs to get the blame. I think they have been wrong on just about everything in this case (and other cases )

Quite (!) The Wail has more info at the following link, including a long quotation from the lead officer. He seems to be saying the human error referred to is that she was missed at the second search (the first search being as routine, fairly superficial), but that the EVRD dog (third search) subsequently indicated that Tia was there, sadly no longer alive, in an area that had already been covered at the second search, leading to the fourth (successful) search (IMO/by my reading anyway). So actually the dog was essential/instrumental to success in this case, actually correcting the 'human error' (or confirming the continuing, but as yet unsubstantiated, human suspicion) and getting them swiftly back on the right track:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2186935/Tia-Sharp-murder-Why-did-police-officers-dogs-8-days-body-missing-12-year-old.html

The retired guy criticising at the end is right in many ways, but I don't like the way he phrases what he says about dogs. Humans obviously missed her the first and second times (They couldn't pull the place apart at the very beginning without first establishing that Hazell's/grandmother's/neighbour's lies were exactly that- a carefully constructed, synchronised pack of lies, i.e. by trawling through at least the first 120 hours of CCTV and extensive local enquiries/searches... all time-consuming; and I can only imagine that there was no EVRD dog present at the 2nd search- it seems that, if so, that was actually the key error?) but without the EVRD dog, and the obviously still-suspicious 'human brain/s' that decided to take it to the grandmother's house for a third search, the perpetrators would have had more time to cover their tracks and possibly even get away with this. I get the feeling that wherever she was, Tia was well-hidden, from a human perspective. Poor little love.

by Guest 11.08.12 18:00

I don't see where he says the dog alerted on the 3rd search (unless I'm missing it?) but he doesn't say it didn't alert either.

I guess we'll find out exactly what happened on the 3rd search eventually.

by dragonfly 11.08.12 18:11

Tony Bennett wrote:
Popcorn wrote:I find it interesting that there are now three people under arrest in connection with Tia's murder. I often hear people insist that the McCanns must be innocent because other people - their friends - would never help them to cover up a crime against their daughter. If Tia's case carries on in the direction it's going, it would appear that some people will do exactly that.
I am absolutely sure that this occurred following the killing of Stuart Lubbock at Michael Barrymore's home at around 4.30pm on 1 April 2001.

Three men were arrested on suspicion of murder: Michael Barrymore, his then-lover Joanthan Kenney, a drag queen from Lancashire, and Justin Merritt, who was a local drug-dealer in the area (maybe still is). But there were six other people at that so-called party who I am sure did not participate in the acts that killed Stuart (one of them Justin Merritt's sister). I am sure they were bought off and warned. I read the police witness statements and one of the two girls picked up from the local night-club by bBrrymore and his associates that night referred in her statement to her 'crying because there had been a rape...' But she refused to say more

off topic, Tony would you be able to start a thread on Barrymore , I would be interested to hear more about that case, as I only know the version the papers printed, Thanks in advance

by **tigger** 11.08.12 18:13

I don't think a retired police officer should - certainly not at this stage - criticise his erstwhile colleagues. Certainly not in public and for the press.
Someone posted earlier that John O'Connor is a great TM supporter? I've never heard of him but clearly he's keen on the limelight.

by Guest 11.08.12 18:16

tigger wrote:I don't think a retired police officer should - certainly not at this stage - criticise his erstwhile colleagues. Certainly not in public and for the press.
Someone posted earlier that John O'Connor is a great TM supporter? I've never heard of him but clearly he's keen on the limelight.

You should google John O'Connor and Kate and Gerry McCann...you'll find quite a lot!

by Spaniel 11.08.12 18:16

OpenMind wrote:I like to take folk as I find them, so from day one I found the "step-grandad", who used to date the grandmother's daughter, who served a year for brandishing a machete, and a previous 2 1/2 years for dealing crack cocaine, who believes "we all have previous", to be a thug and a good-for-nothing ner-do-well, who I would not want within a million miles of my kids at any time, let alone left solely responsible for them on a regular basis.

The parents have to take some responsibility for this tragedy, as they failed to safeguard their daughter. Although bought up by a mother who uses facebook to spout hatred and vileness, maybe the mother knows no better.

On a completely different note, as a mother of 3 happy children in a successfully "blended" family, I was a little upset by one comment on here which condemned mothers of young children bringing new partners into their children's lives. On the contrary, if the situation is handled with care, consideration firstly for the children's happiness and wellbeing and planned and monitored in an objective and adult way, happy families can be created from the ruins of broken homes. My children's beaming faces and happy outlook would confirm this. Committed relationships / marriage still make the best platforms from which children can grow (my humble opinion!!!)

Serial monogamy and partner swapping amongst relatives however, I would agree is wrong and I wonder if Tia ever stood a chance with the dysfunction all around her. RIP Tia x

I don't feel it's a completely different note at all, as I'm sure you not only knew your new partner's friends (always a good indicator for a new relationship) and his relatives, judged him accordingly. You then gradually introduced him into your family.

That is how it should be done and thousands do so very successfully.

Had you then found his friends were drug users, he'd lived with the mother of his ex? No of cause not. He'd have been dropped like a hot brick for the sake of your children if nothing else. You did it the right way. They didn't, and poor Tia has gone.

I don't know the post you refer to, but we can all take offence according to our situation, as any comedian, no matter how inoffensive will attest to.

No way would you have let that man into your circle. Good for you and your family. We all make blunders, me more than most.

Most important "OpenMind" is to carry on your lovely united family.

by Miraflores 11.08.12 18:21

And why the heavens will crash in on them all when the truth is revealed.

I think that we will all be dead before that happens, PeterMac. Certainly for those of us already over 60.

by Guest 11.08.12 18:27

tigger wrote:I don't think a retired police officer should - certainly not at this stage - criticise his erstwhile colleagues. Certainly not in public and for the press.
Someone posted earlier that John O'Connor is a great TM supporter? I've never heard of him but clearly he's keen on the limelight.

This is him (praising the PJ!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5-UkgsWGic

by Spaniel 11.08.12 18:34

dragonfly wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Popcorn wrote:I find it interesting that there are now three people under arrest in connection with Tia's murder. I often hear people insist that the McCanns must be innocent because other people - their friends - would never help them to cover up a crime against their daughter. If Tia's case carries on in the direction it's going, it would appear that some people will do exactly that.
I am absolutely sure that this occurred following the killing of Stuart Lubbock at Michael Barrymore's home at around 4.30pm on 1 April 2001.

Three men were arrested on suspicion of murder: Michael Barrymore, his then-lover Joanthan Kenney, a drag queen from Lancashire, and Justin Merritt, who was a local drug-dealer in the area (maybe still is). But there were six other people at that so-called party who I am sure did not participate in the acts that killed Stuart (one of them Justin Merritt's sister). I am sure they were bought off and warned. I read the police witness statements and one of the two girls picked up from the local night-club by bBrrymore and his associates that night referred in her statement to her 'crying because there had been a rape...' But she refused to say more

off topic, Tony would you be able to start a thread on Barrymore , I would be interested to hear more about that case, as I only know the version the papers printed, Thanks in advance

Drangonfly, after the trial, I too would like to hear Tony's view on many of his works. With Tony preparing, maybe now is not the time.

The most disgusting accusation was that the hospital staff caused the injuries. If we do ever discuss it, I hope it's not here for public viewing but to trusted members only.