Re: Missing Tia Sharp

by Newintown 10.08.12 21:41

Smokeandmirrors wrote:Like PeterMac, I have a theory about all this which I committed to a document three days ago. (PM please PM me if what I have below is similar to your thinking )

Just want to say, seeing the guys with a ladder heading for the house was a big heads up IMO. I believe they found a false wall in the loft OR heaven forbid, reminds me of something from years back where someone had actually encroached into the loft of a neighbour.

He is allegedly a painter/decorator this Hazell chap, so has presumably in his working kit, tape and plastic sheeting? My guess is that some sort of DIY looked a little too fresh. I suspect it was the dogs alerting to a place that didn't look like a place, if that makes any sense.

There were nasty buckets of gunge being looked at in one SKY bulletin.

We may or may not ever know the whole truth here, but I fear there is more than one family member involved in this.

Saying about someone encroaching into the loft of a neighbour reminded me of some years ago after my father died and my mother was living on her own, the house next door (semi detached) was rented out to some very weird people, she put a number of locks on the trap door into the loft. I thought she'd gone barmy at the time but after she died and I lived in the house on my own to sort her things out, I realised that she felt quite "spooked" and did it for her own peace of mind incase these "weird" people started to encroach themselves on her property.

You can't trust anyone these days!

Missing Tia Sharp - Page 13 173510

by uppatoffee 10.08.12 21:44

Tigger - just found this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2186762/BREAKING-NEWS-Boyfriend-Tia-Sharps-grandmother-arrested.html

by russiandoll 10.08.12 21:46

Out of respect to Tia and sensitivity to her family, it is right that some details should be withheld. I also think another family member is involved with the concealment and cover up.

by ProfessorPPlum 10.08.12 21:47

OpenMind wrote:Think this says something about the type of person entrusted with this poor child, shamelessly lifted from her facebook page which is publicly accessible

Not any more its not. Disturbing to see Tia's picture instead of Granny's though. The content you posted is pretty nasty, but nothing I haven't seen a million times before online. Depressing.

by russiandoll 10.08.12 21:48

uppatoffee wrote:Tigger - just found this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2186762/BREAKING-NEWS-Boyfriend-Tia-Sharps-grandmother-arrested.html

Tia lived at the Lindens with her grandmother and SH acc to this? Police arrested the 37-year-old ten miles from the New Addington area, where he lived with the missing 12-year-old and her grandmother, Christine Sharp.

by dragonfly 10.08.12 21:51

Smokeandmirrors wrote:Like PeterMac, I have a theory about all this which I committed to a document three days ago. (PM please PM me if what I have below is similar to your thinking )

Just want to say, seeing the guys with a ladder heading for the house was a big heads up IMO. I believe they found a false wall in the loft OR heaven forbid, reminds me of something from years back where someone had actually encroached into the loft of a neighbour.

He is allegedly a painter/decorator this Hazell chap, so has presumably in his working kit, tape and plastic sheeting? My guess is that some sort of DIY looked a little too fresh. I suspect it was the dogs alerting to a place that didn't look like a place, if that makes any sense.

There were nasty buckets of gunge being looked at in one SKY bulletin.

We may or may not ever know the whole truth here, but I fear there is more than one family member involved in this.

I hear what you are saying, I will ask the question as a general rule of thumb in cases of searching , any signs of building work/ gardening partitioned walls ect would that not already be signs to look out for, even neighbours would of been asked questions of unusual activity , banging ect, I mean you only have to look at the fred west case to see there is no limit to where someone would hide a body , surely lights and torches are used in dark areas and dogs would be lifted up in to these areas it is not uncommon to have loft walk through's hence fire spreading to neighbours so easily , I would of thought this would be standard procedure am I wrong to think the experts would not check all this to prevent wasted man hours ?

by TheTruthWillOut 10.08.12 21:56

Don't really want to kick the Met when they are down but criticism of them is unanimous among all press and ex-detectives.

Dare I say they now know how the PJ feel.

by Guest 10.08.12 22:01

This paper tweeted first about Hazell's arrest, and now this tweet. He is editor of Croydon Advertiser. Wonder what he means the circumstances of his arrest were extraordinary. I did see a tweet earlier about many armed police ...............

Glenn Ebrey‏@glennebrey

Now Stuart Hazell has been arrested it's difficult to say too much - but the circumstances of his arrest are extraordinary #tia

by dragonfly 10.08.12 22:07

TheTruthWillOut wrote:Don't really want to kick the Met when they are down but criticism of them is unanimous among all press and ex-detectives.

Dare I say they now know how the PJ feel.

I think there is good and bad like in everything, I think in some cases their hands are tied and their powers are limited and the problem lies within government , And it for the people to put the pressure on the government yet they do not want to lock up child abusers ect yet let them live within the community , yet there is also corrupt officers , yet the public do nothing , We as a society have to demand for a change , until that happens we are on a down fall with laws being brought in until we are living in the worst Orwellian society

by Guest 10.08.12 22:09

TheTruthWillOut wrote:Don't really want to kick the Met when they are down but criticism of them is unanimous among all press and ex-detectives.

Dare I say they now know how the PJ feel.

Good point. And it's not as if this is the first high profile case British police have made big mistakes in either - the press and ex-cops should know better, but it's easy 'journalism' I guess.

by Guest 10.08.12 22:12

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/Tia-Sharp-Stuart-Hazell-arrested-suspicion-murder/story-16689478-detail/story.html

The partner of Tia Sharp's grandmother has been arrested on suspicion of murder, after being spotted by a teenage salon worker.

Stuart Hazell, 37, was detained after 18-year-old Bryoni Goodwin recognised him from TV news reports.

ARRESTED: Stuart Hazell

Bryoni, who works at Sculpture hairdressers, in Cannons Hill Lane, Merton, told the Advertiser: "He came in and said 'have you seen my Tia Sharp?' My boss took this at reception. He said 'I am the grandfather' We did not know at the time he was wanted,

"He said he was the grandfather and she went to Raynes Park School, so I'm looking around the area just in case.

"He said all he wants to do is find her in a McDonalds eating a burger, not in a field or woods.

"We said we had not seen her but when I was washing someone's hair, my boss checked the BBC and saw he was on the news and she ran into the shop next door and they said the same thing."

The salon worker then called the police and Hazell was later arrested on the common at Cannons Hill Lane, close to Joseph Hood Recreation Ground.

The area is currently cordoned off, with the police helicopter having been hovering over the site earlier.

The Met Police confirmed Hazell was arrested on suspicion of murder this evening (Friday) at around 8.30pm.

A spokesman said: "Police were called to a public place in Merton at 8.27pm this evening after a member of the public called 999.

"Officers near the scene deployed and arrested him on suspicion of murder.

"He is currently in custody at a South London police station. No updates are expected overnight."

A body was discovered by police searching the house of Christine Sharp - Hazell's partner - in The Lindens, New Addington, this afternoon.

The body has not yet been formally identified but it is believed to be that of 12-year-old Tia, who hasn't been seen since last Friday.

by Guest 10.08.12 22:26

Here is the statement from Commander Neil Basu..............

[youtube][/youtube]

by **Tony Bennett** 10.08.12 22:32

Smokeandmirrors wrote:I have a theory about all this...Just want to say, seeing the guys with a ladder heading for the house was a big heads up IMO. I believe they found a false wall in the loft OR heaven forbid, reminds me of something from years back where someone had actually encroached into the loft of a neighbour.
He is allegedly a painter/decorator this Hazell chap, so has, presumably, in his working kit, tape and plastic sheeting? My guess is that some sort of DIY looked a little too fresh. I suspect it was the dogs alerting to a place that didn't look like a place, if that makes any sense.

It's very hard to comment in the absence of hard data - and so much speculation and confused press reporting, but these matters stand out:

* The police have conceded that this was the FOURTH time they searched the grandmother's property in New Addington

* The garbled and strange account by Stuart Hazell of the events of Thursday night and Friday morning (and a number of other surounding facts) suggested that if Tia was murdered, it was probably on last Thursday night.

I cannot believe that Tia's body could possibly have been brought back into the house during the week.

So, what, then, was wrong with the searches and the dogs called in earlier in the week? - after all, the media are universally calling this whole affair a 'shambles', not least because the leading suspect was at large when the body was found, yet he lived in the house!

Clearly, in the light of the above, the first three police searches were, unarguably, incompetent to a huge degree.

So why didn't the original dogs find the body - if we assume human cadaverine had been leaking out of Tia's body for several days?

Surely the answer must lie in precisely what the dogs are trained to detect> They are not 'general practitioners', sniffing out all manner of things. They are specialists.

As I understand it, they are trained these days to detect one particular scent.

Were the German shepherd dogs/Alsatians trained only to follow a live scent, e.g. off Tia's clothing?

Is it possible that it was only on the fourth and last occasion that cadaver dogs, trained to alert to a human corpse, were brought in?

Sniffer dogs are trained to sniff for very specific scents, not just 'drugs', but one sniffer dog for cannabis, one for heroin, one for crack cocaine, one for amphetamines etc. etc.

Simlarly, dogs are not trained so much to detect 'explosives' in general, but specific explosives, e.g. semtex, gunpowder, etc. etc.

Did the police send in the 'wrong' dogs earlier in the week?

by Guest 10.08.12 22:38

Just a note of caution to all posting please be careful what you now say. I have just seen this tweet from a journalist who I think is right............

Steven Hallmark‏@steven_hallmark

Time for my weekly contempt of court warning. If someone arrested proceedings active so you can't say they're guilty

by Guest 10.08.12 22:44

Just seen this on twitter, those clever doggies again..............

Melanie Melanson Missing: Soil Samples, Cadaver Dogs Help Revive Cold Case

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/01/melanie-melanson-missing_n_1724781.html

by Lady-Heather 10.08.12 22:51

As a daughter of a police dog handler I can tell you this.. Tony is correct in that the dog will only alert to the scent they are trained to detect. In my case it was drugs and plastic explosives, other dogs will be trained to detect other specific scents such as cadaver, or human blood. It is a game to the dogs, as you can see in one photo where a dog exits the property with a toy plastic ring. It's quite plausible that it was tracker dogs, not specialist detection dogs that entered the property earlier this week.

by russiandoll 10.08.12 22:52

candyfloss wrote:Just a note of caution to all posting please be careful what you now say. I have just seen this tweet from a journalist who I think is right............

Steven Hallmark‏@steven_hallmark

Time for my weekly contempt of court warning. If someone arrested proceedings active so you can't say they're guilty

yes I think sub judice applies once an arrest is made, so careful discussion required.

by **Tony Bennett** 10.08.12 22:54

Lady-Heather wrote:As a daughter of a police dog handler I can tell you this.. Tony is correct in that the dog will only alert to the scent they are trained to detect. In my case it was drugs and plastic explosives, other dogs will be trained to detect other specific scents such as cadaver, or human blood. It is a game to the dogs, as you can see in one photo where a dog exits the property with a toy plastic ring. It's quite plausible that it was tracker dogs, not specialist detection dogs that entered the property earlier this week.

Exactly! Thank you for this further clarification, L-H

by **Tony Bennett** 10.08.12 23:09

candyfloss wrote:Just a note of caution to all posting please be careful what you now say. I have just seen this tweet from a journalist who I think is right...

Steven Hallmark‏@steven_hallmark

Time for my weekly contempt of court warning. If someone arrested proceedings active so you can't say they're guilty

Hallo 'candyfloss', you're undoubtedly right, as you have always been in the past, to exercise caution when posters make accusations against others, and there are indeed 'sub judice' rules which apply to 'publications' - which certainly could include relatively small (though busy tonight!) forums like this one.

It was a year ago that the Daily Mail and Daily Mirror were punished for contempt of court for publishing details about the contemptible serial murderer, Levi Bellfield. The trial of one of his (I have to say alleged) murders had to be abandoned because the judge held that the two newspapers had prejudiced a fair trial by publishing details of his previous murder convictions. This is a robust view from someone who thought the judge was dead right to halt the trial...and someone who believes it was right in the interests of justice to punish the two newspapers from breaching the sub judice rule:

http://eoghanhanlon.com/wordpress2/index.php/more-honoured-in-the-breach-right-to-a-fair-trial-is-no-technicality/

All of this does not mean that we cannot discuss this case. Far from it. There is much to discuss e.g. the police actions, the dogs, the troubled home life of Tia, etc. etc.

What we cannot do is discuss the e.g. character and previous convictions (if any) of Stuart Hazell.

Though this leads to absurd results. For example, the press may or may not have mentioned any previous convictions of Hazell (I am being careful here in what I say). So, if the press have previously carried reports of the convictions of an arrested person, should they e.g. wipe these reports from their internet archives? Should admin here go back through 40-odd pages on this thread and delete every adverse reference to Stuart Hazell?

It is a bit of a minefield.

Which means that 'candyfloss' is right to ask us to tread carefully.

by **Tony Bennett** 10.08.12 23:13

The Shelfstacker wrote:Subjudice and contempt of court only apply once a person is charged with an offence. At that point it becomes a matter for the courts.

Many people are arrested and never charged. You are free to comment on the case all the time they are in custody or under investigation.

Of course, 'Shelfstacker', you are right. The rules do indeed come into play only when someone is charged. So discussion can continue for a short while at least about Hazell's character and about what is known or thought to be known about the circumstances of Tia's death - though we should use our careful discretion

by The Shelfstacker 10.08.12 23:20

Tony Bennett wrote:
The Shelfstacker wrote:Subjudice and contempt of court only apply once a person is charged with an offence. At that point it becomes a matter for the courts.

Many people are arrested and never charged. You are free to comment on the case all the time they are in custody or under investigation.
Of course, 'Shelfstacker', you are right. The rules do indeed come into play only when someone is charged. So discussion can continue for a short while at least about Hazell's character and about what is known or thought to be known about the circumstances of Tia's death - though we should use our careful discretion

Actually Tony, and at risk of complicating the issue, I defer to you on your previous post, having looked up the law as it stands. I should have done that before my earlier post, which I have now deleted.

One interpretation amongst many which say essentially the same thing is (from www.out-law.com) is: Criminal proceedings are deemed active once a person is arrested, a warrant for arrest has been issued, a summons has been issued or a person has been charged and remain active until conviction.

I stand corrected.

by Guest 10.08.12 23:26

Thank you The Shelfstacker, the tweet I posted was from a journalist, and I would have thought they would know the law on such things.

So please be careful what you now say re the person arrested.

by justathought 10.08.12 23:27

Christopher Jefferies

by **Tony Bennett** 10.08.12 23:31

The Independent is more muted than the tabloids, but even they admit tonight that...

After three previous searches of the house on The Lindens estate near Croydon, officers finally found a body. The force said it could not rule out the possibility that the body had been there all the time and was facing difficult questions about why the searches – involving both specialist officers and a dog team –failed to find anything.
Scotland Yard also faced potential embarrassment about how the prime murder suspect, Stuart Hazell, 37, eluded them for several hours until he was arrested in south London last night when he was spotted by a member of the public. He was being held at a police station on suspicion of murder.

As the force launched an apparent damage-limitation exercise, the Metropolitan Police Commander Neil Basu said the time that the body was there would be the subject of what has become a murder investigation. "It would be wrong to jump to any conclusions until all the facts have been established," he said.

Commander Basu said the pre-planned search had taken place with the family's full co-operation. But retired detectives last night questioned why a full examination of the house was not carried out sooner. Martyn Underhill, a former detective chief inspector, said yesterday: "The rule with a missing child is to clear the ground under your feet. You have to ask why it wasn't done earlier."

by Guest 10.08.12 23:33

From the Daily Mail online................

[snipped]

[size=21]Police were alerted to the possible presence of a dead body when sniffer dogs trained to detect decomposition returned to her grandmother’s home early yesterday.

[/size]Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2186762/BREAKING-NEWS-Boyfriend-Tia-Sharps-grandmother-arrested.html#ixzz23BY0Ws2S

Yesterday, the first search with the dog??? and they didn't go in till today to do the search??????????