What my sister in law use to do

by peethagoras 22.02.17 17:24

Sometimes when she couldn't get her two children to sleep, my sister in law would give them a drop of a kind of sleeping potion. I think it was called "Phengan".

The point is this: a group of adults enjoying a drink, situated out of earshot from a child, might not realise that: between their table and the child's room there's a deep swimming pool.

A sleepy child searching for its parents in the middle of the night. . . .

just a thought.

by MayMuse 22.02.17 17:30

Hello and welcome.
Madeleine did not leave that apartment by herself, it was ruled out years ago by the Mccanns themselves.

The stuff you are speaking of is Phenergen known as Promethazine. A neuroleptic and anti histamine. It is a strong sedative and usually children would not wake up drowsy in the middle of the night after it being administered , they sleep soundly for hours on end normally till morning. I think it was taken off the market years ago.

by peethagoras 22.02.17 21:52

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Yes that was it, Phenergen.

I did not realise she did not leave that apartment by herself'. Can you recall what was said by the Mccanns regarding it?

regards

by MayMuse 22.02.17 22:03

peethagoras wrote:Hi, thanks for the reply.

Yes that was it, Phenergen.

I did not realise she did not leave that apartment by herself'. Can you recall what was said by the Mccanns regarding it?

regards

Considering that the McCanns reported theory is "abduction", how does that equate with her leaving by herself? Not once have the McCanns said that Madeleine left the apartment on her own, they venomously deny it.

Anyway, here is an interview from 2011 have a watch through as Kate does discuss this.

by suzyjohnson 23.02.17 10:42

Drowning is a possibility.

Practically I don't know when this could have happened though. Had she drowned without being sedated, the parents would have just said so.

There probably wouldn't have been enough time on the Thursday evening for this to have happened (particularly if you take the evidence from Eddie and Keela into account)

So when? Wednesday or earlier? The two things I always have difficulty with here are

1) How was MM seen at the creche by independent witnesses on the Thursday if she was not there? (Amaral is satisfied MM was last seen at 5.30 pm that evening and that's good enough for me)

2) I can't honestly imagine that the tapas group could callously continue with a pretense, playing tennis, dining out for an entire week to cover up whatever had happened.

by Guest 23.02.17 14:12

suzyjohnson wrote:

2) I can't honestly imagine that the tapas group could callously continue with a pretense, playing tennis, dining out for an entire week to cover up whatever had happened.

I think that's a really good point but could it be possible that the others in the group didn't know, or if they did know they felt a collective guilt and a need to conceal a tragedy without considering the long term implications? From what I've read, it seems the rest of the group did distance themselves from the McCanns by going to the restaurant for breakfast together, going to lunch and the beach without them. Also, the phone records do suggest a flurry of activity and behavioral changes around May 2.

by peethagoras 23.02.17 14:34

Perhaps the parents each unwittingly gave the child a dose of some kind of sleeping potion, each thinking the other had not. In which case, could it have been an accidental overdose, administed by two professional medicals?

by MayMuse 23.02.17 14:54

peethagoras wrote:Perhaps the parents each unwittingly gave the child a dose of some kind of sleeping potion, each thinking the other had not. In which case, could it have been an accidental overdose, administed by two professional medicals?

Perhaps, but what about the blood detected? How would that come in to it?

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If you use the search bar on the forum you can find threads on different aspects of the case to help you.

by suzyjohnson 23.02.17 20:03

MayMuse wrote:
peethagoras wrote:Perhaps the parents each unwittingly gave the child a dose of some kind of sleeping potion, each thinking the other had not. In which case, could it have been an accidental overdose, administed by two professional medicals?
Perhaps, but what about the blood detected? How would that come in to it?

.

That's a very real possibility.

With the rest of the story playout out the same way MayMuse, a very drowsy MM, an accident, etc.

Or perhaps an attempt to revive her when they realised what they had done?

by Guest 23.02.17 20:16

suzyjohnson wrote:
MayMuse wrote:
peethagoras wrote:Perhaps the parents each unwittingly gave the child a dose of some kind of sleeping potion, each thinking the other had not. In which case, could it have been an accidental overdose, administed by two professional medicals?
Perhaps, but what about the blood detected? How would that come in to it?

.

That's a very real possibility.

With the rest of the story playout out the same way MayMuse, a very drowsy MM, an accident, etc.

Or perhaps an attempt to revive her when they realised what they had done?

I seem to remember from when my own kids were little that child safety gates are not very safe after the age of about two because older children will try to climb over them. A drowsy child trying to get out past a child safety gate would be very dangerous...

by suzyjohnson 23.02.17 20:18

What's_up_doc? wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:

2) I can't honestly imagine that the tapas group could callously continue with a pretense, playing tennis, dining out for an entire week to cover up whatever had happened.
I think that's a really good point but could it be possible that the others in the group didn't know, or if they did know they felt a collective guilt and a need to conceal a tragedy without considering the long term implications? From what I've read, it seems the rest of the group did distance themselves from the McCanns by going to the restaurant for breakfast together, going to lunch and the beach without them. Also, the phone records do suggest a flurry of activity and behavioral changes around May 2.

I don't know. It's difficult to imagine anyone keeping up a pretence for an entire week over something so serious as the death of a child (the initial impact would be devastating). And if some of the group did not know, I don't know how on earth they did not suspect anything.

I can accept that the group were foolish, selfish, irresponsible, but to be able to go about a week's holiday as though nothing had happened, that's something else again. Mind you, if we're correct that the McCann's and some of the others were involved in a cover up, then they have managed to keep up a pretence for a very long time.

by Guest 23.02.17 20:56

... I think you are right - I'm thinking maybe the night before. This is the night of the row when Gerry left early and when Kate followed, five minutes later he was already fast asleep. I'm thinking maybe he went to check on the kids at ten o'clock and when he didn't come back Kate followed because she new something was wrong. I enjoyed watching the interview above - the interviewer is actually quite probing. I like the bit were Kate says "Gerry and I don't row"!

by suzyjohnson 23.02.17 22:23

What's_up_doc? wrote:... I think you are right - I'm thinking maybe the night before. This is the night of the row when Gerry left early and when Kate followed, five minutes later he was already fast asleep. I'm thinking maybe he went to check on the kids at ten o'clock and when he didn't come back Kate followed because she new something was wrong. I enjoyed watching the interview above - the interviewer is actually quite probing. I like the bit were Kate says "Gerry and I don't row"!

And so ...... if they don't row, then it's potentially very significant that the night before their daughter went missing that they did row isn't it?

by plebgate 23.02.17 22:30

peethagoras wrote:Sometimes when she couldn't get her two children to sleep, my sister in law would give them a drop of a kind of sleeping potion. I think it was called "Phengan".

The point is this: a group of adults enjoying a drink, situated out of earshot from a child, might not realise that: between their table and the child's room there's a deep swimming pool.

A sleepy child searching for its parents in the middle of the night. . . .

just a thought.

Link:

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by Guest 24.02.17 8:23

suzyjohnson wrote:
What's_up_doc? wrote:... I think you are right - I'm thinking maybe the night before. This is the night of the row when Gerry left early and when Kate followed, five minutes later he was already fast asleep. I'm thinking maybe he went to check on the kids at ten o'clock and when he didn't come back Kate followed because she new something was wrong. I enjoyed watching the interview above - the interviewer is actually quite probing. I like the bit were Kate says "Gerry and I don't row"!

And so ...... if they don't row, then it's potentially very significant that the night before their daughter went missing that they did row isn't it?

Absolutely! I hadn't thought of it but as you say, potentially very significant as it's totally incoherent and draws attention to the inconsistencies of that night.

Thanks also for the link to the drugs thread plebgate - I think there is still a fallacy out there that the higher up the Food chain you go, the better the parenting skills should be and it's a nonsense. I met a woman at my antenatal classes (many moons ago) and stayed in contact for a while. Her infant daughter spent a great deal of time on her own, in a beautiful nursery, plonked in front of a three hour Telly tubby video. The mother had had a very high powered job and really could not adjust to having a baby and I think, looking back, she had post-natal depression after a traumatic birth. I do think if Kate's medical records had been given to the Portuguese Police as requested, we might be able to make more sense of this tragic case.

by peethagoras 24.02.17 9:38

suzyjohnson wrote:
MayMuse wrote:
peethagoras wrote:Perhaps the parents each unwittingly gave the child a dose of some kind of sleeping potion, each thinking the other had not. In which case, could it have been an accidental overdose, administed by two professional medicals?
Perhaps, but what about the blood detected? How would that come in to it?

.

That's a very real possibility.

With the rest of the story playout out the same way MayMuse, a very drowsy MM, an accident, etc.

Or perhaps an attempt to revive her when they realised what they had done?

I wonder if its possible to cause a burst blood vesse l- say in the nose - by an overdose of some sleeping potion?

by ChippyM 24.02.17 9:39

MayMuse wrote:Hello and welcome.
Madeleine did not leave that apartment by herself, it was ruled out years ago by the Mccanns themselves.

The stuff you are speaking of is Phenergen known as Promethazine. A neuroleptic and anti histamine. It is a strong sedative and usually children would not wake up drowsy in the middle of the night after it being administered , they sleep soundly for hours on end normally till morning. I think it was taken off the market years ago.

I looked it up. You can still buy it from online chemists, the ones where they ask you to fill in a disclaimer form saying you've had it before etc. I imagine a doctor could get it no problem.

The possible side effects if used on children sound pretty scary.

"Phenergan should not be given to a child younger than 2 years old. Phenergan can cause severe breathing problems or death in very young children. Carefully follow your doctor's instructions when giving this medicine to a child of any age.

If a child is using this medicine, tell your doctor if the child has any changes in weight. Phenergan doses are based on weight in children, and any changes may affect your child's dose.
Overdose symptoms may include overactive reflexes, loss of coordination, severe drowsiness or weakness, fainting, dilated pupils, weak or shallow breathing, or seizure (convulsions).
Common Phenergan side effects may include:

drowsiness, dizziness;
ringing in your ears;
double vision;
feeling nervous;
dry mouth; or
tired feeling, sleep problems (insomnia). "

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by Yvie Han 24.02.17 10:06

In 2007 the medicine that many were using for children was one called Medi-sed.

It was paracetamol based, so same as Calpol, but with a antihistamine - similar to piriton/hayefever meds that cause drowsiness.

I actually tried some and it honestly knocked my legs off, really strong vile stuff, and I never again gave it to my child.

I know of phenergan, but in 2007 it was not stocked at many pharmacies, it is a fairly old medicine and my mother a medical professional now in her late 60's would mention it many times.

Having a child 10 months younger than Maddie, I know the alternative was Medi-sed and it was very much hyped in 2007.

by Yvie Han 24.02.17 10:07

Oh here we go it was DISCONTINUED !!!!!

You can read here that it was knocking children out. !!!

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by ChippyM 24.02.17 10:12

The tablets are not discontinued because you can still buy them. Some forms such as topical and intravenous were discontinued.

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Edited to add, Sorry I see you are talking about Medised.

by Yvie Han 24.02.17 10:15

ChippyM wrote:The tablets are not discontinued because you can still buy them. Some forms such as topical and intravenous were discontinued.

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Sorry Ididn't mean Phenergen ..... MEDISED the childrens Calpol with Seditive was Discontinued around 2014, becasue of its effects.

If you read my post above that, it explains a bit more about Medised, it was a children's over the counter medicine in 2007 that had very strong sedative effect.

by ChippyM 24.02.17 10:20

Yvie Han wrote:
ChippyM wrote:The tablets are not discontinued because you can still buy them. Some forms such as topical and intravenous were discontinued.

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Sorry Ididn't mean Phenergen ..... MEDISED the childrens Calpol with Seditive was Discontinued around 2014, becasue of its effects.

If you read my post above that, it explains a bit more about Medised, it was a children's over the counter medicine in 2007 that had very strong sedative effect.

No it was my fault for not reading properly, I noticed just after I posted.

by peethagoras 24.02.17 10:21

I wondered about the blood thing in relation to an accidental overdose of Phenegan, and found this site:

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by Yvie Han 24.02.17 11:00

WOW look what I just found .....

Medised in 2007 was used in 3+ Months, it then changed to 6+YEARS .

BUT astonishingly I have just found it MUST NOT BE USED with a certain eye condition.!!!!

I put the link below, I am not sure what Maddies eye condition was or if there is any links, but I though carrying on from my posts above regarding the Medised it could be something or nothing.

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by Yvie Han 24.02.17 11:25

I'm thinking this could very well be a part of this story.

It seems very coincidental, G.P's were recommending this to parents in 2005 onwards.

It has strong sedative effects, and on the front of the bottle and box that is the thing it points out " aids restful sleep"

Also the ages changed sometime in 2008 it from being used in babies to then becoming a medicine for 6 year olds and over.

It was then taken off the UK market completely.

The bit where it mentions an eye condition that it should not be used, I find pretty strange !!! Just ONE where it shouldn't be used!

Also being Dr's if something like this was in play and caused an accidental death, I am sure they would keep it all under wraps as those huge pharmaceutical companies have bigger strings than the government! They would receive a huge payout.

Could be totally barking up the wrong tree, but having a child at the same time and around the same age I know how Medised was the new BUZZ, as it was basically talked about as Calpol but helped them sleep 12 hours, i know parents used it to make the children sleep through the night, it really was massively in fashion in 2007.