Re: A TENSE SITUATION by Dr Martin Roberts

by Bishop Brennan 31.03.14 2:50

Many threads of this story seem to lead back to DP. Can it just be coincidence that the recent Portuguese documentaries feature him so prominently and that all 3 CW programs erased him entirely from the story? Such a pity that SY were prevented from doing a proper background search on him, as Amaral in particular seems to see him as central to the mystery.

by ultimaThule 31.03.14 3:18

It seems to me that 'whooshing' the Payne/Webster trio from the Crimewatch production which was shown the UK, the Netherlands, and Germany while in Portugal David Payne continues to occupy a prominent position in accounts of the evening of 3 May 2007, is a deliberate act, Bishop, and I've added a response to the 'Twitter claim' thead in the Members' Lounge which relates to this particular matter.

On reflection, there's no reason why my comments on the 'Twitter claim' thread shouldn't be reproduced here if others should think it fitting.

by kimHager 31.03.14 3:29

My opinion is Kate n Jane wAs video taping this other child to possibly :
A. ) Photoshop her and pass her off as another Maddy or at least take the video home to family or police to say oh look at Madeleine play when she was never there.
B) possibly use this as a " video" from the said abductor with a random note showing different children that looks like Maddy.. Thinking the PJ wouldn't figure it out as Maddy changes her looks in every pic
C. ) for darker reasons... Perhaps if they were into pedophilia this was a candidate.

Any way you look at it K and J didn't get to use the video.... But they said Nigel had the camera... Oh dear they can't even figure out a good lie to lie about

by **tigger** 31.03.14 6:32

Bishop Brennan wrote:Many threads of this story seem to lead back to DP. Can it just be coincidence that the recent Portuguese documentaries feature him so prominently and that all 3 CW programs erased him entirely from the story? Such a pity that SY were prevented from doing a proper background search on him, as Amaral in particular seems to see him as central to the mystery.

I'll try and find it but I'm sure that around July last year there was a report that in 2008 both the Paynes made a statement to the PJ. In this statement they do not place Gerry at the table for quite a long time.
I think that snippet got lost amongst the barrage of news at the time. It would certainly explain poor JT being snarled at in the doc when she said he was away a long time. I believe it's also supported by the waiter.

What if Payne realised later that he'd better safeguard himself and turn Queen's Evidence should the occasion arise.

How the 'friends' were persuaded to take part in the farce of the 3rd I don't know. But there is something known as 'small group dynamics' something that drives anything from a sports team to a terrorist cell.
For it is a fact that some of the group barely knew the McCanns and so their cooperation seems inexplicable.

by Rupert_the_Bore 31.03.14 9:27

Is anybody ever going to tell the truth about what they are thinking in this case or are conjecture and speculation going to reign supreme forever.

by russiandoll 31.03.14 9:28

BCB, the safety gate does not enter into a fall if the fall was from the balcony, a possibility if the patio door was open as Maddie would have had access to the table and chairs for climbing, which were placed right next to the balcony railings. Will check the 5a photos, it looks as if a fall from one part of the balcon would have been on to the steps, from another part down into the garden area.

Not saying this is what happened, just pointing out the danger of the balcony area, regardless of the safety gate.

by AndyB 31.03.14 9:39

Rupert_the_Bore wrote:Is anybody ever going to tell the truth about what they are thinking in this case or are conjecture and speculation going to reign supreme forever.

As none of us know what happened there can only be conjecture and speculation. I'm not sure what you mean by "tell the truth"

by Guest 31.03.14 9:43

I just wish that those most closely connected to the case would tell the truth.

by Rupert_the_Bore 31.03.14 10:24

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I just wish that those most closely connected to the case would tell the truth.

Exactly. How many times can this investigation into a dead man be re-visited? All we hear about are media theories with the same theme trotted out time after time.. Surely there is a journo out there that is prepared to ferret some information on the only witnesses to the events as they happened. These people are living in the UK, they cannot all be under some divine protection like the McCann couple.

by Guest 31.03.14 10:38

russiandoll wrote:BCB, the safety gate does not enter into a fall if the fall was from the balcony, a possibility if the patio door was open as Maddie would have had access to the table and chairs for climbing, which were placed right next to the balcony railings. Will check the 5a photos, it looks as if a fall from one part of the balcon would have been on to the steps, from another part down into the garden area.

Not saying this is what happened, just pointing out the danger of the balcony area, regardless of the safety gate.

Absolutely agreed RD, I have a three year old and she could easily climb over that wooden fence with the help of a chair/table, or probably without. Not all children are such climbers I expect but my heart would be in my mouth the whole time if I was staying in that apartment because of that drop. And children can of course surprise you and do the unexpected, especially somewhere new and on holiday. I find myself very restricted by drops, open staircases and cliffs/sea walls etc when going anywhere with my lo that apartment would have been out of the question for me to start with.

ETA: I actually think that there is more to this case than a simple fall but if sedation was involved then yes, it is a possibility.

by Monty Heck 31.03.14 10:52

BlackCatBoogie wrote:
Monty Heck wrote:
russiandoll wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
Doug D wrote:And then thoughtful parent KM says in KH1 (p.45):

'Though I envied David & Fiona their sea view, being on the ground floor meant we didn't have to worry about the childrens safety on a balcony'

so a fall from their balcony/patio of maybe 10/12 feet wouldn't matter then.

The balcony is right over the sharp stone steps as can be seen here.......

Very dangerous to a child imo.

There is not a detective in the world who would accept that a 3 year old was allowed access to that BALCONY area via an unlocked door, especially by parents who were experienced medics and who would have seen during their A and E training many examples of childhood trauma, mostly accidents in the home, such as falls.
Therefore the door was locked, or there were means used to ensure no waking and wandering.

eta first thing on the Met home page in big letters

New appeal following the disappearance of Madeleine McCann
no mention of the A word here
(Bold mine)
No question that this is a balcony and at least as dangerous as the Paynes' (if not more so due to the steps below), therefore KMcC's statement that they had no need to worry about it because they had a "ground floor" apartment is nonsense. Leaving such young children alone in that accommodation would not and could not have "felt so safe" to anyone of even average intellect unless, as you say RD, means to ensure no waking and wandering were used.

This IMO is the crux of the entire case. The accuracy and reliability of the earliest and most vital testimony on which the entire case hinged were notably absent. Yet the T9 received the benefit of doubt to a more than generous extent, due in no small part to the campaign in evidence from the earliest moments, that any difficulty comprehending the actions of the group were due to alleged cultural differences. There is no question the tale as told would NOT have been swallowed quite as whole had the investigation been on home turf.

Despite evidence such as the scene itself proving the lie regarding wholly unjustifiable feelings of safety arising from the accommodation and resort, the group's resolute, unanimous insistence that their behaviour was both safe and normal was not subject to sufficient challenge, for understandable reasons. This should have been picked up on by Leicestershire Constabulary but it seems that it was not. Despite all the evidence pointing to faked abduction and no evidence in 7 years of actual abduction, in summing up the AG had to concede the following insurmountable difficulties:

1) the group's behaviour on the evening of 3 May appeared normal (presumably this is up to 10.00pm, as some very odd behaviour was notable thereafter)
2) they were all (apparently) new to the area and had no local knowledge or vehicle, therefore concealment of a body without discovery would have been problematic
3) the forensic evidence thus far was of insufficient weight to allow charges of simulated abduction and cadaver concealment to be brought
According to this article from 30/09/2007 - allegedly there was a child safety gate at the top of the stairs - I think these are the same steps as referred to above.

http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/09/madeleine-mccann-died-after-fall-down-steps/

There are also some interesting comments in this article re alleged cadaver odour found on the steps and the PJ allegedly being certain that MBM died in the apartment.

I don't think this is what happened but it is certainly a possibility.

Thanks BCB, interesting article with some interesting comment. Dated 30/9/2007 so early arguido days before the press was fettered:

"But yesterday, a source close to the couple hit back at the allegations. Kate carrying Cuddle-Cat. The toy with cadaver scent detected by the dog Eddie. (description of photo of KMcC)

“Where is the proof that this happened? Madeleine was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness. When is Madeleine supposed to have fallen?“If the police are 100 per cent certain that Madeleine fell down some steps, that means they must be able to prove she died in that way. It’s just not possible without a body.”The couple’s spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, added: “It is just ludicrous. All of these reports are unsourced and unsubstantiated.”

Interesting CM claiming M was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness to that, which I don't recollect ever reading in the case files but perhaps I have that wrong? If this isn't in the files and consequently investigated previously, Mr Mitchell should be invited to SY to provide details of this witness who he has publicly claimed can substantiate that MMcC was seen alive at 7pm as the PJ have recorded the last sighting of her outwith the family as being 5.30pm. Interesting that the source close to the couple cannot credit that a child put to bed at 7 could have fallen down the steps - perhaps he/she should be asked to elaborate as to why the child could not have got out of bed and attempted to climb over the gate as there must be something behind such an assertion.

by jeanmonroe 31.03.14 12:59

C Mitchell:
“Where is the proof that this happened? Madeleine was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness.
------------------------------------------------------------

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.
-------------------------------------------------

19H00 (7pm) on the 3rd May 2007.

SO it seems Pinkie KNEW of this 'visit' by FP at 7pm.

But a lot of people have DP as the last 'non' McCann to see Madeleine.

DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry

First he was there at 17H00 for the LAST time on 3rd May 2007 (but he was actually at the beach then)

THEN, hastily added, imo, it was his 'visit', (at 18H30?) after GM 'asked' him, after he had left the beach cafe.

But, it IS, the 'unhelpful and hurtful' UK Police that SAY it was FP who was the last 'non' McCann to be in 5A at 7pm (19H00)

NOT DP!

Hmmmm.

If anyone here can give me 'an innocent explanation' for this 'time travel', i'm all ears!

by Monty Heck 31.03.14 18:39

jeanmonroe wrote:C Mitchell:
“Where is the proof that this happened? Madeleine was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness.
------------------------------------------------------------

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.
-------------------------------------------------

19H00 (7pm) on the 3rd May 2007.

SO it seems Pinkie KNEW of this 'visit' by FP at 7pm.

But a lot of people have DP as the last 'non' McCann to see Madeleine.

DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry

First he was there at 17H00 for the LAST time on 3rd May 2007 (but he was actually at the beach then)

THEN, hastily added, imo, it was his 'visit', (at 18H30?) after GM 'asked' him, after he had left the beach cafe.

But, it IS, the 'unhelpful and hurtful' UK Police that SAY it was FP who was the last 'non' McCann to be in 5A at 7pm (19H00)

NOT DP!

Hmmmm.

If anyone here can give me 'an innocent explanation' for this 'time travel', i'm all ears!

Thank you JM. So we have a PC who states FP declared within her depositions that she was in 5A around 19.00. If she is who Mitchell was referring to, he seems to have gone somewhat further than saying she was there at that time which is all this statement above is claiming. Mitchell stated that M was seen (being put to bed) at 7pm on 3 May by a witness, one and a half hours later than the last accepted (by the PJ) sighting. There is an urgent need for SY to revisit these statements and finally unravel the pertinent facts from the heap of obfuscation with which the initial investigation was littered. This is no longer a review and it's high time this investigative stage finally focussed on the key players that week, to elicit a coherent and credible timeline of events. Or not, if that is the case.

by kimHager 31.03.14 22:31

I'm sorry but I have 3 children under 5 and there is NO Way I can get them to bed all at the same time much less before 8 pm. There is always another drink of water, an I'm scared tell me another story, at least one who is sneaking around the bedroom door and always that extra cuddle that one needs. How on earth did Kate manage this incredible feat? Maybe JT couldn't believe it either and just had to see it for herself...for all three kids to be so soundly sleeping is unusual to say the least I know my kids wake up several times and of they don't see me they don't lay down and go quietly back to dreamland.. No they go looking for me or daddy. Did the crying that abruptly stopped that night Ms. Fenn heard it possibly be because she heard someone on the patio or the patio door... Perhaps Madeleine went out that door and fell down the steps ?

by ProfessorPPlum 31.03.14 22:52

So not only doesn't David Payne remember what Kate wasn't wearing when she came to the door at 5.30 when he popped in alone for his 30 minute (or 30 second) visit but now he doesn't remember that it was really 7pm and his own wife was already there when he knocked?

I can't accept that these rather glaringly contradictory statements have not - at some point - been placed side-by-side on a table somewhere in SY by one of the decent 37 police officers assigned to this case. Perhaps it has and perhaps that's why Dr. David Payne has been conspicuous by his absence in recent years.

by **Tony Bennett** 31.03.14 23:13

ProfessorPPlum wrote:I can't accept that these rather glaringly contradictory statements have not - at some point - been placed side-by-side on a table somewhere in SY by one of the decent 37 police officers assigned to this case. Perhaps it has and perhaps that's why Dr. David Payne has been conspicuous by his absence in recent years.

Surely not 'side by side'?

More likely, in a shredding bin labelled:

'HURTFUL AND UNHELPFUL THEORIES BY NUTCASES AND HOUNDERS'

by TheTruthWillOut 31.03.14 23:16

Tony Bennett wrote:
ProfessorPPlum wrote:I can't accept that these rather glaringly contradictory statements have not - at some point - been placed side-by-side on a table somewhere in SY by one of the decent 37 police officers assigned to this case. Perhaps it has and perhaps that's why Dr. David Payne has been conspicuous by his absence in recent years.
Surely not 'side by side'?

More likely, in a shredding bin labelled:

'HURTFUL AND UNHELPFUL THEORIES BY NUTCASES AND HOUNDERS'

Aye! The Met have banned shredding! titter

by ultimaThule 31.03.14 23:28

Tony Bennett wrote:
ProfessorPPlum wrote:I can't accept that these rather glaringly contradictory statements have not - at some point - been placed side-by-side on a table somewhere in SY by one of the decent 37 police officers assigned to this case. Perhaps it has and perhaps that's why Dr. David Payne has been conspicuous by his absence in recent years.
Surely not 'side by side'?

More likely, in a shredding bin labelled:

'HURTFUL AND UNHELPFUL THEORIES BY NUTCASES AND HOUNDERS'

You have every right to be embittered by your experience of the McCanns and despairing that justice will ever be done in this case, Tony, but if you're unable to believe that any of the 37 UK police officers assigned to Operation Grange have placed contradictory statements side by side, may I urge you to have faith that at least one of the 37 Portuguese officers assigned to the PJ's re-opened investigation has not consigned them to the shredding bin?

by kimHager 31.03.14 23:55

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL Ref: David Payne Date: October 24, 2007

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

So FP went there together with Kate? Then the husband arrives 10min later.... So where was FP and KM before this... Wasn't this asked by the PJ? The children were where? Alone again? There is a big time gap between DP's visit and his wife's. The only logical thing is if Gerry was there. So Gerry was there (assumption ) and... Kate and Fiona P. Show up either by call or Kate went to get her. Then David Payne arrives? To me this must have been clean up time. Assuming Madeleine was alive on May 3rd, but I don't believe it. Otherwise it was time to go over what they would say, do, etc. As they put operation raise the alarm into motion later that evening. Perhaps they shared that NZ wine high5

by **Tony Bennett** 01.04.14 0:13

ultimaThule wrote:
You have every right to be embittered by your experience of the McCanns and despairing that justice will ever be done in this case, Tony, but if you're unable to believe that any of the 37 UK police officers assigned to Operation Grange have placed contradictory statements side by side, may I urge you to have faith that at least one of the 37 Portuguese officers assigned to the PJ's re-opened investigation has not consigned them to the shredding bin?

I recommend that you obtain and read Graeme McLagan's book: 'BENT COPPERS':

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bent-Coppers-Scotland-against-corruption/dp/0752859021

ETA: You emphasised the number 37.

Both it and its reverse, 73, are associated with the six-ponted Star of David, smaller and larger versions. A fascinating prime number, in fact:

http://members.home.nl/frankcolijn/frankcolijn/5._The_Star_of_David.htm

by ultimaThule 01.04.14 4:56

Tony Bennett wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:
You have every right to be embittered by your experience of the McCanns and despairing that justice will ever be done in this case, Tony, but if you're unable to believe that any of the 37 UK police officers assigned to Operation Grange have placed contradictory statements side by side, may I urge you to have faith that at least one of the 37 Portuguese officers assigned to the PJ's re-opened investigation has not consigned them to the shredding bin?
I recommend that you obtain and read Graeme McLagan's book: 'BENT COPPERS':

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bent-Coppers-Scotland-against-corruption/dp/0752859021

ETA: You emphasised the number 37.

Both it and its reverse, 73, are associated with the six-ponted Star of David, smaller and larger versions. A fascinating prime number, in fact:

http://members.home.nl/frankcolijn/frankcolijn/5._The_Star_of_David.htm

I'm under no illusion about the extent of corruption in the police and other institutions in the UK, Tony. Neverthless, imo even the most nine bob note of coppers will draw the line at covering up for parent(s) who are complicit in the needless death of their child and, ime, few will leave colleagues who are wrongly accused to their fate.

In numerology 37 is indeed a fascinating number; for the Chaldeans it symbolised the Force, the Capacity, and the Power. In the Greek gematria it's the symbol of the Christ and the alive word of God

Its reverse, 73, is the value of Hebrew noun for Wisdom and if we add together the number of UK and Portuguese police working on investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann we have 78, the number which in the Book of Thoth Hermes is said to represent the Incorruptible Spirit which I trust will prevail and deliver justice for this little girl.

by ultimaThule 01.04.14 5:40

candyfloss wrote:
Doug D wrote:And then thoughtful parent KM says in KH1 (p.45):

'Though I envied David & Fiona their sea view, being on the ground floor meant we didn't have to worry about the childrens safety on a balcony'

so a fall from their balcony/patio of maybe 10/12 feet wouldn't matter then.

The balcony is right over the sharp stone steps as can be seen here.......

Very dangerous to a child imo.

Stone steps and marble floors can be be unforgiving surfaces for children and adults alike. However, as access to the apartment via its front door is child friendly, there was no need for the McCanns to use the rear entrance and no reason why all, or any, of their children should have been on the balcony/patio unsupervised at any time.

Others may have commented on this previously, but I can't resist calling attention to the fact that the diagram of Apartment 5A on page 46 of Exhibit KH1 has it that the 'patio doors' lead on to a 'veranda' (sic) which has gated top and bottom steps leading to Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins, the road on which the entrance to the swimming pool complex and Tapas Bar is situated, and all of the apartment's windows appear to protrude from the premises in a manner which suggests that any shutters could easily be opened from outside.

In this diagram 5A's walled garden area has been whooshed and replaced by a row of ~~blobs~~ bushes bordering an 'access path' beyond which is the 'Tapas and Pool Area'. Similarly, what purports to be a map of The Ocean Club on page 50 gives no indication of the high walls which enclose the swimming pool/bar complex and the blob which denotes 5a has joined the row of bushes (above) giving every impression that eating at the Tapas Bar is just like dining al fresco in one's own back garden, albeit on the other side of one's own swimming pool don'cha know, dahlings smilie

.

Bearing in mind tigger's earlier observation that "Accurate measurements happen to other people, McCann measurements are variable" it seems that, much like their cartographers, Mcdiagrams and Mcmaps are not to be relied on for accuracy.

by russiandoll 01.04.14 9:34

quote UT : Stone steps and marble floors can be be unforgiving surfaces for children and adults alike. However, as access to the apartment via its front door is child friendly, there was no need for the McCanns to use the rear entrance and no reason why all, or any, of their children should have been on the balcony/patio unsupervised at any time.

Agreed, but we have to go by the statements which speak repeatedly of a sound asleep [ but not sedated] Maddie, who was sleeping with the patio door closed but unlocked, therefore she did have access to this very dangerous area, while drowsy and uncoordinated if she were to wake up...so increasing the danger.

by ultimaThule 01.04.14 9:40

Absolutely, rd. I'm merely making a case for child neglect and endangerment should other charges fail... winkwink

by **Tony Bennett** 01.04.14 10:15

ultimaThule wrote:
I'm under no illusion about the extent of corruption in the police and other institutions in the UK, Tony. Neverthless, imo even the most nine bob note of coppers will draw the line at covering up for parent(s) who are complicit in the needless death of their child...

I could counter this by producing evidence to you that it is not 'nine bob note' coppers who are behind the widespread extent of serious police corruption in this country, but police officers at the most senior levels.

If we look for example at the work done by Operation Tiberius (highlighted recently on this forum) - an investigation into corrupt relationships between very senior Met Polcie officers and some of the nation's most powerful drug barons and career criminals - I could tell you from personal knowledge of many murders that have been covered up.

If I were to name names, I would be at personal risk, but please don't proceed with your life today without recognising that senior police officers in the UK are quite capable of smothering the truth about murders, if it is in the interests of 'The-Powers-That-Be'.

Two words.

Daniel Morgan (also discussed on this forum).

But there are many other murders being covered up.

Corrupt senior police officers frighten police whistleblowers into silence by two tried-and-trusted techniques:

1. Threaten them with prosecution under the Officfial Secrets Act and

2. Threaten them with being dismissed for gross misconduct - thus losing their pension entitlement.

Even retired police officers can have their pensions withdrawn on the recommendation of their former Chief Constable.