Leaving the children alone

by Cristobell 01.02.13 19:53

I have never been able to get my head around the idea that a group of adults, 6 of whom worked on the frontline of the NHS, could leave small children alone in a holiday apartment.

I never did it, no-one I have ever asked would do it, and even the most fervent McCann supporters always preface their posts by saying, they wouldn't do it themselves. So how were we sold the idea it was 'commonplace' and the idiot doctors became national heroes?

How a party that included no less than 6 doctors, thought it OK to leave such young children on their own is unbelievable, and yes, they should have been punished. It was not a simple mistake, it was a deliberate plan of action for their entire holiday, that took no account whatsoever of the danger they were placing their children in, the least of which, was kidnapping. That it was usual in 1950's Butlins, is no excuse, we are more enlightened now, the good Doctors, especially.

I would imagine that nannies and childminders would be dismissed on the spot, if they were found to be leaving their charge on their own, while they chatted to their mates down the road. Fortunately most of us would be stricken with horror at the mere thought of it. However, the marketing campaign was so slick from the start that we had all sorts of celebrities 'fessing up, and saying I've done that too, and suddenly it didn't seem so bad. It was a brilliant marketing campaign, no-one can deny, but the fear is, there will be young parents out there daft enough to be taken in by this blase attitude towards childcare. And that, I feel is wicked.

We have all been squeezed of sympathy, and some of cash. Enough now. Let other tragedies take centre stage. The McCanns must accept that they will never find that vindication they are struggling for if they continue to blame others for their loss. Sending a pensioner to prison will not bring Madeleine back, nor will causing an ex police detective to suffer, relieve their pain. If I remember the Our Father correctly, don't we ask God to 'forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others'?

by Guest 01.02.13 20:02

Cristobell, could you give this topic another title please.

by Casey5 01.02.13 20:28

It is hard to believe that ALL of the tapas 9 thought it was ok to leave 8 children unattended every single night of their holiday isn't it?
I don't believe they ever did. The McCanns' accepted the neglect charge because if they hadn't they couldn't have shouted "abduction" from the rooftops.
Neglect = possibility of abduction
No neglect = no abduction

As soon as they realised that the "jemmied shutters, removing Madeleine from the window" had been rumbled as a lie, they switched to "unlocked patio door" as the next best option.

It's highly unlikely that all of the group, bar none, would decide it was ok to leave 8 kids, one of them a baby with diarrohea on their own every night outside of the Mark Warner complex.
The Paynes had a monitor, not easy to hear in a noisy environment with alcohol playing a part.
They also had a potential babysitter, Diane Webster - funny woman isn't she? Had I been in her position I would have stayed in with the children and told my daughter exactly what I thought of her.

by Cristobell 01.02.13 20:33

candyfloss wrote:Cristobell, could you give this topic another title please.

- of course, but wonder if you could do it, I am not very techy. I do apologise. Maybe, Leaving the children alone?

by Inspectorfrost 01.02.13 20:39

Casey, if that were true, then they have ALL lied to the police, both in PT and the UK. I'm not sure they would all do that.

by tiny 01.02.13 20:44

Inspectorfrost wrote:Casey, if that were true, then they have ALL lied to the police, both in PT and the UK. I'm not sure they would all do that.

I think they would,if they hadnt why have they let Madeleine down by not speaking up,they must know the mccanns have lied as like us they have read the pj files.

by Inspectorfrost 01.02.13 20:53

tiny wrote:
Inspectorfrost wrote:Casey, if that were true, then they have ALL lied to the police, both in PT and the UK. I'm not sure they would all do that.

I think they would,if they hadnt why have they let Madeleine down by not speaking up,they must know the mccanns have lied as like us they have read the pj files.

Not speaking to the media is not the same as lying about whether they left their kids alone though.

by Cristobell 01.02.13 21:06

Casey5 wrote:It is hard to believe that ALL of the tapas 9 thought it was ok to leave 8 children unattended every single night of their holiday isn't it?
I don't believe they ever did. The McCanns' accepted the neglect charge because if they hadn't they couldn't have shouted "abduction" from the rooftops.
Neglect = possibility of abduction
No neglect = no abduction

As soon as they realised that the "jemmied shutters, removing Madeleine from the window" had been rumbled as a lie, they switched to "unlocked patio door" as the next best option.

It's highly unlikely that all of the group, bar none, would decide it was ok to leave 8 kids, one of them a baby with diarrohea on their own every night outside of the Mark Warner complex.
The Paynes had a monitor, not easy to hear in a noisy environment with alcohol playing a part.
They also had a potential babysitter, Diane Webster - funny woman isn't she? Had I been in her position I would have stayed in with the children and told my daughter exactly what I thought of her.

We are all too well aware of how chaotic a trio of toddlers must be and the thought of them alone in a strange apartment would send shudders through every parent.

As for Diane Webster, hmmm, strange. But then, her daughter was one of the doctors with much to lose. As a grandmother though, hard to believe she would endorse the group's childcare arrangements.

by Guest 01.02.13 21:10

Inspectorfrost wrote:Casey, if that were true, then they have ALL lied to the police, both in PT and the UK. I'm not sure they would all do that.

Why not?

We don't know them, do we?

And neither do we know what moves them, where their interests lie (ly? I forget)

Financially or otherwise.

by Inspectorfrost 01.02.13 21:23

Portia wrote:
Inspectorfrost wrote:Casey, if that were true, then they have ALL lied to the police, both in PT and the UK. I'm not sure they would all do that.

Why not?

We don't know them, do we?

And neither do we know what moves them, where their interests lie (ly? I forget)

Financially or otherwise.

No, we don't know them and can't know either way. I just find it hard to believe they would all lie to the police and risk being charged with perversion of the course of justice or anything else. Besides, they were all at the tapas restaraunt and bar every night so did leave their kids alone. A bunch of witnesses attest to that too.

by Lady-Heather 01.02.13 21:38

Just a detail, the witnesses that claimed to have seen the T9 at the Tapas each evening were OC staff, is that correct?

by Inspectorfrost 01.02.13 21:43

Lady-Heather wrote:Just a detail, the witnesses that claimed to have seen the T9 at the Tapas each evening were OC staff, is that correct?

And other holidaymakers

by Mariita 01.02.13 21:50

The other children must think they had extreme luck for not being abducted, it could have been one of them instead as they were left alone aswell. One girl was the same age as Maddie, she might even remember something. At one time the tapaspeople all will get the question from their children, as soon as they are old enough. Madeleine was taken when she and her siblings were alone in the room ,so the official version. So of course it could have happened one of them. Or maybe their apartments were more difficult to reach for an intruder? Or have they been told they were not alone, just Madeleine? It's hard to know, but they don't live isolated so I guess they by know are familiar with the Internet and all that can be found there..

by russiandoll 01.02.13 22:06

The statements from the group are evidence that they were not ALL there EVERY night.. there was sickness in the group.
There were evenings when the tapas were minus one who stayed in their apartment feeling ill. [ did not seem to start in the daytime for any of the patients, only evenings and did not appear to interfere with the next day's activities to any great extent. strange that ]

by Inspectorfrost 01.02.13 22:28

russiandoll wrote:The statements from the group are evidence that they were not ALL there EVERY night.. there was sickness in the group.
There were evenings when the tapas were minus one who stayed in their apartment feeling ill. [ did not seem to start in the daytime for any of the patients, only evenings and did not appear to interfere with the next day's activities to any great extent. strange that ]

So? you saying one stayed behind every night to check on the kids? Only there were two nights none were sick and if there was this happening, no one would have gotten up off the table every so often to check every night.

Their statements about what night it was and who checked on who are a bit contradictory though and raise eyebrows. We have Matt ill on Sunday but Russell goes to check on Matts kids. Then we have Gerry saying he locked the patio doors on Sunday but Russell says he checked onGerrys kids using the open patio door, etc etc etc

by monkey mind 01.02.13 22:32

russiandoll wrote:The statements from the group are evidence that they were not ALL there EVERY night.. there was sickness in the group.
There were evenings when the tapas were minus one who stayed in their apartment feeling ill. [ did not seem to start in the daytime for any of the patients, only evenings and did not appear to interfere with the next day's activities to any great extent. strange that ]

RD, yes very strange.

Particularly when we consider that all of the T9 allegedly abandoning their children every night serves the handy purpose of making this behaviour seem normal rather than unfathomable. It softens the accusations of “guilty of neglect”.

I think there are two statements that can be made regards leaving the children alone. Only one is correct.....

1. If the children had not been left alone the abduction would not have happened.

2. If the children had not been left alone the abduction could not have happened.

Going purely on the evidence, I know which one makes sense to me.

by russiandoll 01.02.13 22:49

who must like all of them have seen some horrendous injuries caused to children in domestic accidents ] his wife, his mother in law, did not once leave the table to check on their very young children, to go and look at them , because they used a baby monitor........3 whole hours !
I certainly don't.....

by Inspectorfrost 01.02.13 23:19

russiandoll wrote:who must like all of them have seen some horrendous injuries caused to children in domestic accidents ] his wife, his mother in law, did not once leave the table to check on their very young children, to go and look at them , because they used a baby monitor........3 whole hours !
I certainly don't.....

These days parents are so paranoid they check ontheir babies breathing with or without a babymonitor, to leave your three babies alone ina foreign country out of sight and earshot 200 metres away or a neighbour or friend near them and sit down away andhave a meal and a drink is crazy

How any parent would feel comfy with that is beyond me

We dont have ANYONE in PDL saying they did that too

By all accounts they took their kids with them or used the creche

by russiandoll 01.02.13 23:24

We have evidence of their awareness of child safety issues....the delay at Faro when they waited for suitable child car seats. I will never accept that those children were left unattended, any more than I accept that Madeleine McCann had an eye defect. Invented with a self-serving motive.

by Inspectorfrost 01.02.13 23:28

russiandoll wrote:We have evidence of their awareness of child safety issues....the delay at Faro when they waited for suitable child car seats. I will never accept that those children were left unattended, any more than I accept that Madeleine McCann had an eye defect. Invented with a self-serving motive.

Then you will have to prove they were not left unattended and also that Madeleine did not have an eye defect. Her parents and grandmother said she did. photos show she did.

by plebgate 01.02.13 23:35

I still do not believe that the children were left in an unlocked apartment, no way.
I understand that 2 women witnesses IIRC gave a statement to say that they had seen the adults entering and leaving the apartment through the unlocked patio door. What the statements did not say was whether they had witnessed this in day time or night time. Again, IIRC.
It would be perfectly acceptable to enter and leave through an unlocked patio door during the day as the children would have been in the creche and possibly the adults popping in and out for a chat/coffee BUT I do not believe that they would have found this acceptable at night time especially in view of the written warnings from the management that there had been a spate of burglaries recently in the area.

by Inspectorfrost 01.02.13 23:56

plebgate wrote:I still do not believe that the children were left in an unlocked apartment, no way.
I understand that 2 women witnesses IIRC gave a statement to say that they had seen the adults entering and leaving the apartment through the unlocked patio door. What the statements did not say was whether they had witnessed this in day time or night time. Again, IIRC.
It would be perfectly acceptable to enter and leave through an unlocked patio door during the day as the children would have been in the creche and possibly the adults popping in and out for a chat/coffee BUT I do not believe that they would have found this acceptable at night time especially in view of the written warnings from the management that there had been a spate of burglaries recently in the area.

Read back. restaraunt staff and others have them there ergo not with their kids

by plebgate 01.02.13 23:58

Not sure what you post means Inspect frost but just because staff saw them there, doesn't mean that the children were left in an UNLOCKED apartment.

by Inspectorfrost 02.02.13 0:12

plebgate wrote:Not sure what you post means Inspect frost but just because staff saw them there, doesn't mean that the children were left in an UNLOCKED apartment.

The original discussion was about whether they left kids alone not whether it was in a locked or unlocked apt
the staff and fellow holidaymakers attested to the fact they were in the bar without their kids, they wouldnt know if the doors were locked or unlocked

by plebgate 02.02.13 0:21

Inspector frost having followed this case from the very beginning I am quite well aware of much of what has been said. I repeat they have stated that they left their children alone in an unlocked apartment - I do not believe that and am entitled to post it without you telling me what the original post was about. Really can't fathom what your complaint is but in any event I have had my say and will not reply to you further on this thread. BYE BYE.