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Sunday April 29th - the first full day

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Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 8:28

What do we know about this day? Who was missing from breakfast? Who did not attend Creche? Who stayed in their room all day?

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 8:35

Despite the nannies being present at the welcome meeting the day before, this is the first time Madeleine's nanny claims to have met her.

From Cat Baker’s Rogatory interview:

“I got to know Gerry and Kate McCann on the Sunday morning, 29.04.2007, in the Minis Club. They brought the children and as it was their first day of holidays the normal procedure was that they were allocated a childcare worker. I had previously written the children’s bracelets which included their name, allergies and relevant information. I stayed with Madeleine, 3 years old, in my group (Minis Club that week) together with E***, daughter of Jane Tanner”.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm

I think this is very important to remember. It would suggest she was missing from the line up at the welcome meeting, but why?

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 8:50

From Matt Oldfield’s Rogatory Interview:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

“But I started feeling a little bit queasy in the evening and then the Saturday evening into the Sunday morning I was actually throwing up, which is just incredibly rare for me. So I felt completely icky all the day Sunday, so I think to try and avoid infecting anybody else, I didn't do much outside the apartment and certainly in the evening I didn't go for dinner with everybody else".
4078 "That is Sunday out the way with then".
Reply "So Sunday was pretty much a write-off and I was thinking, oh, the start of my holiday and I'm not doing anything that day".

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 8:55

I'm reading Matt's statement as he was not feeling ill at dinner in the Millennium, but much later on in the evening. Is that right? Also a doctor who suspected food poisoning, would know he could not infect anyone else, so why the comment? If he was really ill and throwing up that night, I wonder if it was down to a sudden shock?

I gave my boss some bad news once and he nearly passed out. I had to continue talking to him, with him laying on the floor, so that he didn't collapse and I had to keep talking to him, to ensure he stayed awake. I shouldn't laugh, but the looks from everyone walking past was something I will never forget. But it just goes to show how shock can affect some people.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 9:37

Rachel Oldfield’s Rogatory Statement:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

“on the Sunday, he stayed in bed for quite a bit of the morning I think, and I can't, what did we do on the Sunday, well G***e went to creche in the morning with E**a and E**e, Lilly and Scarlet, well all the kids went to creche, but there were Madeleine and E**a because they're older went to a different, they went down, their creche was sort of near the main reception of the Ocean Club, whereas the rest of them, there was E**a, Madeleine and E**a were down in the main reception of the Ocean Club and so was Scarlet, cos the sort of baby creche was down there as well and then the rest of them were with the creche pretty much just behind the Tapas Bar, so they were all in there. So G***e went to creche can't remember what I did, probably tried to get some sun, it was quite, a bit chilly though but we would have picked up G***e from creche at sort of twelve, half twelve I think and then that first day I think we just had lunch sort of in the Tapas but the menu wasn't really that suitable for your kids and then took her back to the room to have a sleep, and then while she slept, we just kind of read outside on the, on the balcony on the veranda, that morning, there might have been some sort of tennis, social I think perhaps".

00.27.18 1578 "This is on the Sunday"?
Reply "On the Sunday, maybe tennis, social and then you decided whether you wanted to do tennis lessons or, that sort of thing and then, I think that must have been the Sunday, I remember sort of having a bit of a hit afterwards with Gerry and Kate and I think Jane, but it was just really seeing what activities there were and what we might want to do for the rest of the week, and then G***e was asleep for about two hours, so she would get up about half three, four o'clock and then I think we just went to the pool, we discovered it was pretty cold and so she wasn't that keen on swimming, neither was I and I think Matt was up by that stage, think he came out in the afternoon, and then we'd booked to eat in the Tapas Bar that night because The Millennium had just been one kind of a bit of trek and a bit too stressful with all the kids and it was, thought it would be quite nice to have dinner by ourselves, so I booked a table for eight thirty in the Tapas for us and we just thought we'd do our own sort of baby listening as we, well if we'd been in another Mark WARNER resort that's what would have happened".


00.29.02 1578 "When you say us, who do you mean"?
Reply "As a group so".
1578 "The whole group"?
Reply "Yeah. So basically we'd go and have dinner and then we'd sort of run back every fifteen twenty minutes and have a listen at the door and make sure nobody's screaming their head off".
1578 "So you, you booked the table on the Sunday evening"?
Reply "On the Sunday yes".
1578 "For eight thirty"?
Reply "Yeah".
1578 "For nine adults"?



00.30.51 1578 "Did you have any monitoring devices yourself"?

Reply "No, no, but on that Sunday night, I don't, Matt didn't come to dinner on the Sunday with being sick the night before, so he didn't, he just stayed in the apartment, so I didn't actually have to go back and check at all on the Sunday".

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 10:45

From Fiona Payne’s Rogatory Interview:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

Due to the unusual length of time Fiona is asked about Sunday and keeps diverting to other days, I have tried to only select what I think are the important bits, but do read the whole statement, as it is very interesting. Why was she, more than any other, pressed so hard about that day?


1485: "Tell me what you did Sunday?"
Reply: "Well, I mean, this is, phew, where it's very hard to pick out each, each day now, I probably had more idea then, and I don't know how much of that will be in my first interview, that might be something that's been said, but, huh, I think because every day was very similar".


--

1485: "Do you know who their Nanny was or who looked after them?"
Reply: "Well L***, yeah, I don't know who her, I don't, the, key workers were any more, I can't remember the names. Yeah, L*** went to the toddler club and E**e and G***e and Sean and Amelie were, were all in the same room. I knew some of the names of the Nannies there but I don't who her key worker was. And Scarlet, again, I can't remember the name of the girl who was, who was looking after Scarlet. There was only kind of two babies in the baby room and about three, huh, carers, again, it was very quiet. Once they were dropped off, as I said, we, we, I'd walked down to the beach on my own and meet Dave there, for our lesson. I can't remember which started first, I think the wind surfing was on the, would have been on the Sunday and then it sort of alternated each day between sailing and wind surfing. But because of the weather conditions, they weren't very good for wind surfing, so we ended up doing I think on the actual Thursday we should have been doing wind surfing and we actually did sailing, because there was no wind, but then it was very rough. So that, as I say, things did".


--

1485: "Try and put yourself there and try and remember how long you think you stayed down at the beach on the first day, on the Sunday".
Reply: "Umm".

1485: "You know, now you have managed to remember that, you know, the sailing conditions wasn't that good".
Reply: "Yeah".

1485: "Try and remember how long you stayed down there, what time you think you left?"
Reply: "Yeah, I think the Sunday, the first day, we did go out on the wind surfers and sort of battled through it a bit, but we were cold and they didn't have full length wetsuits, I remember I actually wanted to come in, because I was absolutely freezing a bit before the end, because I think it ended at half eleven, eleven, half eleven. Again, the times of this have just dimmed with, with the period of time that's passed, and it all sort of depends on when the creche finishes. I suppose that will all be known anyway. But, we, we generally tried to get out of the water half an hour before the creche was due to finish and then we'd just get dried and then obviously go and pick them up. So I think that first Sunday we, we came out a bit earlier than we, later on in the week, would have, because we were cold, and just sort of dried off and sat there, but, and then would have gone to pick the kids up, again, I'd generally go and get Scarlet and Dave would then go and get L***".

1485: "Uh hu".
Reply: "And I think it finished at half eleven or twelve, that sort of time. Yeah, so that, that Sunday was slightly different to the others, I think".



00.45.41
1485: "What would you do after eleven then?"
Reply: "Just, as I said, we'd just dry off, get the wetsuits washed and put away".
1485: "Pick the kids up?"

Reply: "Pick the kids up".
1485: "And then do what?"
Reply: "And then go straight back to the apartment, for lunch, we'd feed the kids there".

1485: "Did anybody else on that day, the first day, come to".
Reply: "On the Sunday".

1485: "Come to your apartment for lunch?"
Reply: "I'm sure they did, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think every, I think every lunch, bar the Thursday, we had people in the apartment having lunch. And my mum generally was the sandwich maker, that was a bit of a joke for the week, she'd took it upon herself to do loads of shopping, while we were sort of sailing and stuff, she, she'd go to the Supermarket and get loads of, loads of provisions in and she'd be making piles of baguettes and, and everyone would generally descend on ours and demolish the lot. We just all mucked in to cook for the kids, we generally tried to give them a hot, a hot lunch and, people would just donate whatever was in their apartment".

1485: "Yeah".
Reply: "So, yeah, I don't think Sunday was any different in that regard, we ate at ours".


--

1485: "Tell me about what you can remember about the early evening, leading up to the time that you put your children to bed?"
Reply: "On the Sunday?"

00.47.11
1485: "Yeah".
Reply: "Phew, again, I, I can't remember specifically Sunday. All I can say is, on the whole, we would just go down and play with the kids. I mean, our kids would sleep until sort of half three, often four o'clock, often we were getting them up a bit earlier, walking them up just to have a bit of a playtime before the tea. But we generally in the evening we would just go down to the play area by the Tapas Bar. And on a couple of, on a couple of occasions we took them to the beach late afternoon if the weather was nice and I couldn't tell you".


--

00.50.58
1485: "I know I am being persistent here".
Reply: "I know".

1485: "But I need to put you back on Sunday because I need the chronological order through the week".
Reply: "Umm".


--

Reply: "Yeah, I mean, our night-time was, I think, from the Sunday, it was, it would be much the same. After the play area they started to tire, around sort of half seven we would, go back and get them bathed, they'd have a bath every night, get them ready for bed, have milk and a story and straight to bed. Depending on who was playing the tennis depended on which two of us would go back, out of me, my mum and Dave, to actually sort the kids out, we didn't always leave altogether, but, as I say, it would be two out of the three that would come back. On the Sunday, huh, as I say, I can't remember who, out of the three of us, would sort the kids. But, if I knew what the tennis nights were, which I'm sure MARK WARNER could find out, that would help actually, because that would probably spark some memory".

--

And so it wasn't really until the Sunday, I think, that we, we sort of realised you could eat at the Tapas Bar. And I think, we just looked at it and it, it did feel like you were kind of across, in your back garden, admittedly, a large back garden, but a back garden, and we just thought well that's great, we can just sort of, easily nip across and check the children on a regular basis and, everyone felt sort of quite happy and comfortable with, with that, and we didn't really, there wasn't a lot of sort of humming and hawing that went on over, over that. I mean, I had, I wasn't aware of the decision to book it for the whole week, I think that had just happened when, when Rachael went to see if it was available for the, for the Sunday night and was told, that you had to sort of book ahead, it wasn't something that we got together and pre-decided that that's what we should do, it was just Rachael, I think it was Rachael that had done it and we were all like 'Oh that's great, that's easy, we don't have to worry about it any more, we'll just eat there every night' and that was the last we thought about it".

1485: "Right".
Reply: "We just thought that was convenient and that would work".

1485: "So you weren't actually instrumental in the planning of the evenings entertainment, shall I say?"
Reply: "No, no".


--

1485: "Yeah. Back to the Tapas night".
Reply: "Umm".
1485: "The Sunday night. I know, like you say, I know this is groundhog day".
Reply: "Umm".

1485: "But you referred earlier on to the relaying of people going to check their kids but you didn't have to?"
Reply: "Umm".

1485: "So try and put yourself back to the first night that you actually dined at the Tapas".
Reply: "Umm".

1485: "And try and remember, if you can remember who actually started to go to look at their children first, that it might trigger the rest of your mind to, the order".
Reply: "Umm".

1485: "All I'm after really is order and times".
Reply: "Umm".

01.04.29
1485: "Or distance between".
Reply: "Of the Sunday night?"

1485: "Yeah. Distance between when people went to, you know".
Reply: "I know that, I can only give a general feeling".

1485: "Yeah".
Reply: "Because I've got no idea who went first and, to be completely honest, I didn't at the time. But I'd say on, on the first few nights it all seemed, fairly well spaced, like people going together, that was just a feeling, a general feeling that I'm giving you. Whereas, again, that differed on the Thursday night, in that, it seemed more, out of, people were more out of synch. But I think that's because we all arrived at different times, whereas, generally, we were a bit more on time at the beginning of the week".

1485: "Yeah".
Reply: "People were going, more sort of nine o'clock, then it'd be half nine and, I remember people clock watching, doing that. I didn't have any idea of time, I wasn't wearing a watch, I didn't have a mobile and I wasn't going up to check our children".

1485: "Yeah".
Reply: "So I can only say, I was quite conscious other people were doing that, but I wasn't part of that. But, people were very stringent about getting, as I say, clock watching and making sure they went".

1485: "Would you say that all of the group, bar yourself, generally would go checking?"
Reply: "Sorry, the group that were with me?"

1485: "Yeah".
Reply: "What, you mean, in terms of some people going more than others or?"

1485: "Yeah, generally speaking".
Reply: "Yeah".

01.06.01
1485: "I mean, because you have got a party of nine, haven't you?"
Reply: "Yeah, yeah".

1485: "Would all nine do the checking at some point?"
Reply: "No, Dave and I and my mother never checked anybody".

1485: "Sorry, minus yourselves, yeah".
Reply: "I guess some people were doing more checking and it tended to be the men doing, again, this is a feeling, it seemed to be they did a lot more sort of upping and downing, than, than the women perhaps. I mean, Gerry and Russell".

1485: "Gerry and Russell?"
Reply: "Yeah, I don't know, they, again, a feeling, is they probably did a bit more checking than the girls did. I couldn't, I couldn't be more specific about that. There was, I'm trying to think if anyone was ill on the Sunday night actually, because we had a bit of illness in the group as well and there were nights, I think, every night there was somebody who was sick actually. And I think Matt might have been ill on, it was either Sunday or the Monday, and, one of those nights he wasn't there for dinner. And then Rachael, wasn't there, I think that was the Wednesday night, she was ill, Tuesday or Wednesday. So there were night when, yeah, there was only eight of us at the table (inaudible)".

1485: "Right".
Reply: "And obviously those nights the partner wouldn't be going back to check because".

1485: "They were in there".
Reply: "They were already in there".

1485: "So who do you think was ill then on the first night, sorry, the second night?"
Reply: "I think it was Matt actually, I think he was the first one. He came down with a bit of diarrhoea or something".

01.07.43
1485: "Yeah".
Reply: "Because I think they were blaming the sandwich on the plane, so it must have been soon, soon after. Yeah, and then, as I say, Rachael, I felt that was, more Tuesday or Wednesday time, I don't think it was Monday".

1485: "Right".
Reply: "I think it was the night before. I think it was the night before the Wednesday that she was".

1485: "That Rachael was bad".
Reply: "Yeah, yeah".

1485: "So you think Matt was bad on the Sunday?"
Reply: "Umm".

1485: "So, other than Matt, everybody else was at the table?"
Reply: "Yeah".


--

1485: "Would go and check. Cast your mind back and think, what was the earliest time of the checking, was anything said or was any observations made or any observations from the table?"
Reply: "On the Sunday are you still on?"

1485: "Yeah".
Reply: "Phew, nothing that is remarkable, that I can recall".

1485: "Okay. We have laboured Sunday now, you generally can't remember".
Reply: (laughs)

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What Kate said about Sunday

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.11.11 13:20

While we're on the subject of Sunday, we ought to consider the input from Dr Kate McCann's 'very truthul' book on the subject. She actually spends 6 pages (pp. 49-55) discussing Sunday, if you include a helpful 1-page map of the Ocean Club on page 50, that is.

I can't scan all six pages, so here are the highlights, with actual quotes wherever possible:

"...we woke up bright and early..."

"..we joined our friends in the Millennium for breakfast, then took the children to their kids' clubs..."

The next statement is interesting as she doesn't actually say that she and Gerry played tennis or exactly what they did that morning, except attending a 'tennis coffee morning' (? - see below):

"While our three were having fun elsewhere with their buddies, there would be a rare chance for Gerry and me to spend time together playing tennis, going for a run or just relaxing. It seemed to us an ideal way for everyone to ge the most out of the holiday".

"...we made it clear to Madeleine that she didn't have to go to the club if she didn't feel like it..."

They took the kids to the clubs and: "The staff had our telephone numbers and we left details of our whereabouts, as we would do for the rest of the week, in case there were any problems..."

Ella and Madeleine "hadn't seen each other for several months" but "they soon became great pals".

"After dropping off the children we went along to a 'tennis coffee morning'...we were keen to get in some tennis on this break and signed up for group lessons for the rest of the week, me at level 1 and Gerry level 2..."

"We" collected the children "soon after midday..."

Gerry "made a trup to Baptista, a supermarket...to get in a few bits and pieces for lunch..."

"We had lunch on the balcony of Fi and Dave's apartment..."

"..we'd been able to make a dinner reservation for the adult contingent at the poolside Tapas restaurant..."

"In the afternoon the children went back to their clubs and, after a leisurely hour by the pool with Fiona, David and Dianne, Gerry and I took a run a long the beach. Being able to play tennis and run together for the first time in ages was a real treat".

"Just before 5pm, the arrangement was that the nannies would bring all the children to a raised area next to the Tapas restaurant to meet their parents and have their 'high tea', as they called it. Madeleine's Mini Club arrived walking in single file clutching Sammy Snake, a long rope with coloured rings..."

They went back to their apartments about 5.30pm to 6pm "kids tired but happy..."

"At home, the twins were usually asleep soon after seven...Madeleine enjoyed an extra half-hour with Gerry and me...In Portugal the only difference was that all three children went down around seven, seven-fifteen".

"None of them had been taking daytime naps for quite a few months before the holiday, and after the activities and excitement of each day, they were all ready for their beds by then. Familiar with their bedtime ritual, they accepted it as a prelude to sleep and, after milk and stories, settled very quickly. It's a time-honoured routine viewed as the norm by the vast majority of British parents and children..."

"After putting the children to bed, Gerry and I showered, dressed and sat down with a glass of wine before heading over to the Tapas restaurant, booked for 8.30pm..."

Dr Kate then explains why they rejected the evening creche facility.

"...we collectively decided to do our own child-checking service...our own apartment was only thirty to forty-five seconds away..."

There is then over a page of angst about their decision not to use the creche or any baby-listening/baby-sitting service.

They all arrived at the Tapas restaurant "except Matt, who had a bit of a dodgy stomach, which he attributed to something he'd eaten en route to Portugal".

They enjoyed their meal. "There weren't many other diners...it was very cold and windy...I discovered that five layers of clothing were required to keep me comfortable. We nipped back to our resepctive apartments every half-hour to check on the children - apart from Racael, since Matt had stayed behind, and Dave and Fiona, who had a state-of-the-art baby monitor with them. Our visits also gave us a convenient opportunity to pop into the loo or, in my case, to pick up an extra cardigan".

"Gerry and I were back in our apartment by 11pm...We were happy - and well rested...We may have been noisier than other tables at dinner - there were up to nine of us talking across each other, after all - but we didn't linger late and our alcohol consumption coud hardly be described as excessive..."

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 14:02

David Payne Rogatory Interview:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

1485 "Okay. So let's move on to the next day, your first full day which is the Sunday."
Reply "Yeah."

1485 "From the time you got up till the time you went to bed."
00:57:18 Reply "I think from my point of view, I find it very difficult to recall the exact events on a day to day basis. I find it easier just to say generally what happened during the week than..."

1485 "Well the first day you would have sorted out your activities wouldn't you?"
Reply "Yeah."

1485 "So if that helps you..."
Reply "Yeah."

1485 "To at least get the first day out the way."
Reply "Yeah, we, I mean the one thing that we, me and Fiona were quite keen on would be to there was, on the water sports side of things. We were keen to put the kids into the creche for the morning, we were gonna look, the, ours tended to sleep during the afternoon so on the, again we'd have perhaps gone down to the water, the water sports area just to maybe to sign up for courses there, as I say we were just generally interested in trying to windsurf and perhaps go on the dinghies. Other members of the group were really interested in the tennis side of things and getting the lessons but I'm really sorry I can't remember exactly."
00:58:37 1485 "Where did you breakfast on the first day?"
Reply "I mean we could obviously there's the Supermarket, which wasn't too far away, did we all go up, I'm trying to think whether we went to the Millennium for the breakfast or whether we went to the Supermarket on the first day. I can't remember, I'm sorry."
Reply "Okay, and you mentioned your creches."
Reply "Yes."

1485 "What time would you have taken them to the creche?"
Reply "I mean well L*** and Scarlet, being the different age groups, were in different places and Scarlet was down by the actual reception at the Ocean Club and Scarlet, err L*** was up at the Tapas bar. So generally Fi would take Scarlet after breakfast which we did often have. Again we stayed on for four weeks unfortunately after and we had breakfast in the apartment and it just blurs."

1485 "Yeah."
Reply "One into the other, whether we were at the Millennium but I seem to remember that we would generally go to the Millennium. There was one morning I can recollect that that Kate and Gerry were walking back and found it difficult because Sean and Amelie were, as I say, in the age where they wanted to walk but it was difficult to get them and I think they were, generally thinking that the Millennium for breakfast wasn't probably a particularly a good idea, which I think more often than not we generally ate at the Millennium, and then after we'd eaten breakfast there which, and again I think finished at nine o' clock, we would then, after we'd finished breakfast try and get them down to drop them off at the Ocean Club or at the creche by the Tapas, then depending on whether there was anything going on that morning from the sporting point of view then we'd go wherever. Mixed into the melee was we often went in the morning to the Supermarket to do a bit of a shop and with a big group that we seemed to get through things pretty quickly and o as I say I'm afraid one day does blur into another, I can't really recall specifics."
01:01:02 1485 "Okay. I understand that your apartment was like the meeting place."
Reply "Yes."

1485 "Can you recall that?"
Reply "Yes, definitely. I, it just happened you know the way it happened people just gravitated up to to our room it's, I suppose some part we'd got Dianne there who is fantastic at helping, it's a free set of hands whereas Russ and Jane obviously they've got two, and we've got two and so it was good that we've got someone extra to help out while someone's preparing the food, keep an eye on the children, err so often we would, we'd con, congregate there at lunch time and quite often if I remember Matt and Rachael would bring G***e along and we'd eat there together. a lot of the time we didn't tend to see Kate and Gerry it was more Russell and Jane primarily I remember, and sometimes Matt and Rachael and G***e but generally Kate and Gerry would do their own thing during the day, so that's, but they they would still come up from time to time. So it was well used at the, that first floor."
01:02:26 1485 "Was it, I notice you say that you didn't see much of Kate and Gerry and you that sparsely see Russell and, was it something that you discussed before the holiday that you was gonna all do your own thing in the day then just meet up for night time?"

Reply "No, no it was just one of these things that naturally happened I think the children, you do whatever is the easiest and you fall into a pattern and it just seemed, whenever you wanted to put your kids down or whenever they were tired or as I say ours slept in the afternoon but I'm, for example I know that Sean and Amelie didn't tend to have sleeps and Madeleine, during the day. So they, yeah their time was pretty occupied right from first thing in the morning till..."

1485 "Yeah."
Reply "When they went to bed, whereas for us we had that kind of period of time where we had to be up in our room, to get them off to bed after and so we would, that's why we were generally at that spot at the same time, whereas whatever routine that Kate and Gerry fell into they fell into it for, to fit around the way that they constructed their day, as, I say they, they were keen on the tennis side of it so that was something that they were doing err so it's all, to'ing and fro'ing, perhaps like Dianne one day would have a lesson, then one day Jane would perhaps play and stay with Matt and Rachael Matt was quite keen on the water sports and Russell so perhaps some days they'd go down so it's all very d know ynamic situation. But I, I suppose the other thing is L*** and E**a they've grown up from very little together so it was always nice for them to, to, to join up together and whether that was..."

1485 "Yeah."
Reply "You know its quite subconscious things as well, they like meeting up, during the mornings E**a was slightly older than L*** so she'd go to the Ocean Club and yeah so L*** didn't see E**a so she perhaps, come up at that stage so."
01:04:52 1485 "So your days generally speaking were taken up by doing your own activities."
Reply "Mm."

Reply "Yeah, I mean some days we'd perhaps go, you know as I say it wasn't the same everyday and we'd perhaps go down to the beach we'd take you know go down to the beach or perhaps we'd do some water sports down there and then Fiona would perhaps bring the kids along and we'd, we'd play with them on the beach and then we'd, we'd have something to eat down in the restaurant at the which looked over the beach. So, but large, by and large there wasn't a great deal of variety, we didn't say oh we'd try eating there another night or we'll do this on another night. I think when we ate at the Millennium on the first night we we'd give them, what I said before, the it's a bit away and everything and, and I can't remember whose idea it was we thought the Tapas bar, that's much better why don't we try and book there. I think, I think it was Rachael, she's very organised and whether she just booked for the first night at the Tapas and then decided that she's gonna book for subsequent nights at the not the main reception but the reception leading into the Tapas area, the Paul with I think the lady's Sylvia, and so she booked the from early in the morning because I think they had to get in early to make sure that they could guarantee, there's only so many people who could eat there."

1485 "Yeah."
01:06:38 Reply "And we just thought it was much better to eat there, it was much more convenient and there wasn't the, you had to walk away and it just, seemed a much better idea doing that really but generally we just fell into the pattern on the whole but a slight variation of where we ate but not a great deal."

1485 "For the rest of the week did you then eat at the Tapas every night?"
Reply "Yes, yes. I think, yes I think you know for me, Fiona and Dianne we, fortunately for us, managed to be there every night, usually most nights there was somebody who'd been, or a child who'd been ill and their parents would stay to look after the child or if they'd been unwell themselves and didn't, didn't want to come out so, but we, we were there every night."
1485 "Yeah. So that, it's okay, so that first night then at the Tapas, that was obviously when this relaying came to notice where everyone was checking their children. Can you tell me about that?"
Reply "Yeah, it's, it's funny in that you, when you're with a group of people and you're sat at a table, you don't, you're not always aware of if it was four people sat at a table and someone goes its much more obvious that they've gone and given the fact that we were slightly different in the way that we had the monitoring service, that, I didn't quite pay attention to what everyone else was doing but they were very, by the conversation who was going, they were very, the other groups were very strict in the timing that they would go. The certain, from what I can remember there wasn't anything longer than thirty minutes in between one of the couples looking after their own, and again this is only from chatting to people, not from my own recollections."

1485 "Right."
01:08:48 Reply "Is that they all looked after their own children, they all went to look on their own children from each of the nights but you know I was just, slightly oblivious to this because we'd set up ours and you know I know everyone went at some stage."

1485 "Yeah."
Reply "As I say you know one night Matt wasn't very well and wasn't there, so there were some nights where you, you realised at the table that someone was, was missing for the full event of the evening and then you'd perhaps see someone might go, so most of the time people would, from the group someone would go at a regular interval, and all I can say was you know people were very strict about this and it was something that they it wasn't like ah shall we go now now we've, nah they'll be fine, it wasn't everyone was very strict and it comes back to the, the Mark Warner, we were just trying to replicate what they, as a policy which they've adapted at their sights across Europe."

1485 "Yeah."
Reply "And we thought well okay if they're not gonna do that we'll, this is what we do, it's not, not far away so and everyone adhered, looked after their own children and did it very regularly. But I couldn't say on this night this person went."
01:10:12 1485 "Right, I'm gonna ask you that, I'm gonna ask you to try and think now, see if you can see it in your head now any occasions where you noticed say Matt had gone and then you noticed when Jane had gone, try and see it in your head and try and, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the, I'm only interested at this moment up until Wednesday."
Reply "Yes."

1485 "Try and remember whether you saw specifically anything going on."
Reply "Mm yeah, mean as I say I know, or, I, the big problems with Matt he'd been unwell one night and G***e had been poorly and I think and E**e so there'd been some, there'd been concerns from that point of view and so perhaps one of those, the adults out of the people I just mentioned would be away from the table but specifically who went back to look on what night and who went there's no chance that I remember."

1485 "Yeah."
Reply "I've, I thought about this but I can't, can't recall."
1485 "Yeah. Do you recollect, I'm just trying to pick at a loose end, but could you see your own apartment from where you were sat?"

Reply "Yes."
1485 "And did you sit in the same seat virtually every evening?"
Reply "Wasn't the same seat every evening, but I tended to sit more round one side of the table than, than the others which, I generally, if I tried to paint a picture that I was in a prime seat so I could look into my apartment every night then that wouldn't be truthful."

1485 "Mm."
Reply "But but just by where I did sit I generally could see in that direction."
01:12:00 1485 "Right, okay. Is there anything at all that you can think might be useful leading up to Thursday, in the evenings, that you can remember now?"
Reply "Err..."

1485 "And conversation? Because I understand it was cold, rainy on a couple of days."
Reply "Mm, mm, yes. I mean from the from the, yeah it was quite cold some nights and perhaps nearly too cold to be sat outside but there was certainly nothing that led me to any concern during that week it was, we were all quite happy with, I say, what we were doing where, the way that we'd tackle things, it was there's nothing that in my mind worried me."

1485 "Okay, and again going back to the daytime, in amongst your activities, because your activities, Fiona's activities in relation to the other group's activities, is there anything that stands out?"
Reply "Err..."

1485 "The beach?"
Reply "No, I mean we sometimes we'd, on the beach we'd see the Mark Warner see our children down there and sometimes it was you'd see them playing there which was a little bit difficult because you didn't want them to see you because it'd be hard on them. I often went down with Fiona, as I say we were interested in the water sports side of things Matt and Russell sometimes went they, Matt's very good on the catamaran and I know that Russell and Matt sometimes did that. I say Kate and Gerry took, I don't they're particularly water sports people, so they, you know they weren't interested in that side of it but, there was nothing really that sprung to my attention that worried me."
01:14:27 1485 "What about, again I'm bitting and bobbing here, I'm trying to jog your memory."
Reply "Yes I know."

1485 "When you go to dinner in the Tapas what sort of time in the evening would you go?"
Reply " I think it was a bit of a standing joke that we were always the last there we tended to, we were getting later and later I think as the week went on, the table I think was generally booked from about half past eight and people would arrive anything from perhaps eight o' clock, but generally we were on the, after just after half past eight I'd say, rather than on the good side of half past eight. So, and there was usually a comment when we arrived."

1485 "What, like here they are or something?"
Reply "Here they are again, yes, kind of so eah obviously on, on the you know if you wanted to go onto the, the night Madeleine disappeared."

1485 "Yeah."



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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 14:24

Dianne Webster Rogatory Interview:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

DW: "Yeah, yeah and then Sunday I mean everyday is so much the same I just find it very difficult to recollect."

PC: "Yeah, I mean if there's nothing specific about a particular day and you can't bring it to mind, then that's..."
DW: "No, no I know that from the, the sun, the Sunday night was the first night we ate at the Tapas restaurant."

PC: "Yeah."
DW: "And they only ever took so many bookings, although there were quite a lot of tables in the restaurant it was never ever full, in fact it was generally I would say quite empty but this was because I think the staff were limited they had limited staff at the restaurant so they could only cope with so many people and originally I think you had to get there early in the morning to book, you could book at the entrance to the Ocean Club and Rachael somehow managed to get a block booking every night for eight thirty. So that was why we ended up going there every night because it was near the apartments."

--
PC: "And it's the Sunday night which you first met at the Tapas."
DW: "Yes."

PC: "Do you remember much about that particular, with it being the first meal?"
DW: "Well no nothing, we were all looking forward to having a, a good week really. I mean it was, the weather was not very good, it was quite cold I'm not sure whether the first, the first, first night I remember giving a jumper to Kate that I'd, taken a sort of parka zip up thing that might have been the first night I don't know, because she'd only got a, a flimsy shirt on or whatever. It was cold and I lent her my jumper and after that we went down some of us had jackets on, it was quite cold, and the Tapas restaurant was, although it had a roof on it and it had a sort of Perspex screen down the side it was actually open at the end so you could get a, quite a breeze blowing through, but no I mean we were just all having a, having a nice meal and, and it was like that every night really."

Would that be a sleeveless white blouse I wonder?

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 14:33

Stella wrote:PC: "Do you remember much about that particular, with it being the first meal?"
DW: "Well no nothing, we were all looking forward to having a, a good week really. I mean it was, the weather was not very good, it was quite cold I'm not sure whether the first, the first, first night I remember giving a jumper to Kate that I'd, taken a sort of parka zip up thing that might have been the first night I don't know, because she'd only got a, a flimsy shirt on or whatever. It was cold and I lent her my jumper and after that we went down some of us had jackets on, it was quite cold, and the Tapas restaurant was, although it had a roof on it and it had a sort of Perspex screen down the side it was actually open at the end so you could get a, quite a breeze blowing through, but no I mean we were just all having a, having a nice meal and, and it was like that every night really."

Would that be a sleeveless white blouse I wonder?

Something else just jumped out at me with this statement. She says " It was cold and I lent her my jumper and after that we went down some of us had jackets on, it was quite cold"

To me, this suggests that the McCann's were inside the Payne apartment, for DW to pass to her a 'parka', then they went down to the tapas restaurant. So it was not passed to her 'inside' the restaurant. Very interesting indeed.

I have always been of the opinion that all of the children were being looked after inside Payne's apartment, based on other people's statements. Matt on the 3rd, talks of going 'up' to check on G****, when he is at 5a, and she is supposed to be in 5b.

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Russell O Brien Statement Tuesday 08/04/08 in blue & amendments in Rogatory 10/04/08 in green

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 14:43

Sunday 29th April 2007 I had booked into water-sports on the Saturday but I don't think they operated on Sunday. I can't recall exactly what I did on what day but I had booked to have windsurfing lessons and to do a bit of sailing. My recollection now is a little poor due to the lapse in time I got up around 08:00-08:30am we had breakfast at the Millennium restaurant, we went down to the beach, played a bit of tennis- but as I'm not a brilliant player I wasn't all that bothered about playing tennis. :It says 'Sunday the twenty-ninth of April', I think it's worth just saying, on that it currently runs, I think it's actually running straight into the Monday thereafter, we, I think I booked into Water Sports on the Saturday at this meeting at the Tapas, I think that's where you made your bookings, it possibly may have been on the Sunday, I'm not entirely sure there,but".
1578 "So the booking for Water Sports?"
Reply "May have been on the Saturday at the Tapas, it could have possibly been on, at a separate meeting on the Sunday,
I'm not entirely sure whether there was one, one introductory meeting where everything happened including some of your bookings for what you wanted to do or whether there was a separate one on the Sunday. But, just the way, the way this reads it implies that I had wind surfing lessons that day, but actually, there was no water, I don't think there was anything in terms, in terms of lessons down at the waterfront until the Monday". 1578 "'I can't recall exactly what I did on that day' it should read, shouldn't it?"
Reply "On that day, yeah. But 'I'd agreed to have wind surfing lessons and do a bit of sailing' shall we say 'Monday through Thursday', we add 'Monday through Thursday', because we certainly didn't do that, I think the Sunday was sort of a, a relative day off for, for the staff, well certainly with the, for the staff at the beach I think. I think the rest of it's fine. I don't, I really can't recall an awful lot about the Sunday, I think we probably just had a bit of a look round, a trip to the beach. I've got a vague idea I, that you may have been able to still hire the kayaks, so I think I might have had a go on one of them, but I suppose that's not terribly, terribly relevant

We were booked into the Tapas bar, we ate there that night initially it was booked as a one off I think by Rachael as far as I am aware the table was booked for 20:30hours. I am aware that Rachael asked to eat there each night for the remainder of our stay this I believe was booked on the Monday morning as a block booking- the time was agreed by the group. Matt was unwell and I recall I went to see him, he had been suffering from a stomach upset so I can say that there were only eight adults at the Tapas bar that night. It says on the next paragraph 'I'm aware that Rachael asked to eat there each night for the remainder of our stay', that's correct, but I think it's worth pointing out that that booking was probably made on the Monday. So we made one-off booking to eat at the Tapas on the Sunday, as I say, I think that was Rachael. But I might be confusing it with the, the next day, where there were only a certain number of us around and I think Rachael made, asked, was asking if there was a block booking and I can certainly remember being stood, around, there was a number of the group, with her at the time, but I think it was Rachael that asked".
00.22.48 1578 "So Rachael asked for the block booking on the Monday?"
Reply "After we'd eaten there once. We must, we, we didn't know what it was like and I think we ate there and, enjoyed it and thought it was, it was going to be convenient, for, for, for us and for the children and so the block booking would have been the next morning. So, yeah, Matt was unwell on the Sunday. Yeah, there was only eight of us there

The good thing about the Tapas bar was that it was quite near to the apartments, and the walk to the Millennium was quite far away, the Tapas bar was also used by the kids club for afternoon tea.
Kate and Gerry weren't so flexible about meal times as their children were in more of a routine, as were Dave and Fiona, where as Jane and I are slightly more accommodating and our children have been used to staying up late on occasions. The bookings were made for the following week 20:30hours after the children were settled in bed.
In relation to the childcare routine it was a collective decision made as a group, Dave and Fiona used their two way child monitor to monitor their children. .. It doesn't quite make sense here. It says 'In relation to the child care issues it was a collective decision made as a group', fine. 'Dave and Fiona used their two-way child monitor', 'alone to monitor their children' because they".

1578 "'Dave and Fiona used their two-way child monitor to monitor their children'?"
Reply "Yeah, and that, that's what they used because they had this, they could, they could listen in and talk to, in their room as well, so they didn't.
Kate and Gerry made a physical check on their children. Matt and Rachael made a physical check on Grace. Jane and I also made a physical check on Evie and Ella. And then it says, and it doesn't make sense, it just says 'Kate and Gerry to check their children', there's a verb missing there".
1578 "Really it should be a full-stop after 'their children', shouldn't it?"
Reply "A full-stop, yeah. Yeah, full-stop, yeah. And then 'Kate and Gerry', I'd say, 'physically', 'physically went', yeah, 'physically checked'".
1578 "'Kate and Gerry had to physically check their children'?"
Reply "A physically check, 'physically check their children', 'as did Matt and Rachael to check G***e and Jane and myself to check E*** and E***'.

I'd like to point out that we knew that there was NOT a baby listening service, this had been picked up before our departure as there had been other inaccuracies in the brochure picked up by Dave, I believe that the brochure inaccuracies would be recorded in emails by David PAYNE. (page four) I'm not sure that we were ever, I don't think we were led to believe that there was a Baby Listening Service, I think".
00.25.06 1578 "Right, just bear with me a minute".
Reply "Sorry".

1578 "'We were led to believe that there was a Baby Listening Service but this wasn't the case'?"
Reply "I don't think we were led to believe, I think we, we, knew that there wasn't a Baby Listening Service, I don't think we were led to believe that there was. There were certain things in the brochure about the resort that were incorrect and that formed part of Dave's emails, but they were largely about other things, like hire and,".
1578 "'The brochure was incorrect'?"
Reply "In, in, in other ways, but I don't think it was about, it wasn't about".
1578 "Was incorrect in relation to the Baby Listening Service?"
Reply "No, I don't think, I don't, I don't remember it was, I think,".
1578 "'The brochure was incorrect in other aspects'?"
Reply "Yeah, fairly trivial, just about I think".
1578 "'And these formed part of'?"
Reply "Of Dave's correspondence with MARK WARNER. I think it was, there were a few things that I, because it was a new resort I think things had, were, were in a state of flux for MARK WARNER on what, on what was said in the brochure and what was actually there and things were changing and some things that we were promised didn't happen, some things that, that were. A lot in the brochure were actually there and, I don't, it wasn't that there wasn't a Baby Listening Service, I don't think, but, I think,

Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by the clock. I'm aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms but on occasions we often listened at other apartment doors or windows, and made checks on some visits.
On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry's apartment as well as Rachael and Matt's. I had taken Matt's keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same. I recall that Kate and Gerry's apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked. I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside. I think for the next paragraph, 'Kate and Gerry would check', it says 'Initially we would only check our own room', I think actually it was, it was more, it was more fluid than that, I think early on, for instance".

00.27.20 1578 "Sorry, whereabouts are we?"
Reply "'I'm aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms, on occasions we may have listened at other apartments and doors and windows', I think actually, generally speaking, what we would do is, we would often listen at other, often listened at the windows of the other apartments and routinely go into our own. But it wasn't a question of initially we'd only check our own rooms, I think actually earlier on, and certainly from my point of view, I actually went into Kate and Gerry's room, on the Sunday and Matt's room on the Sunday, we, at the start we were going to each and every room, but I think then, because there was a bit of, it was actually more that we would listen at the windows and go into our own room, because there was, , everyone was going up and down in a cycle, in the circuit, so".

1578 "So 'We may have listened at other'?"
Reply "Listened and, and early on actually checked, yeah, early on we".
1578 "'Listened at other apartment doors or windows'?"
Reply "I think that happened, that happened quite a lot, we would often do that".
1578 "So you are happy with 'the doors or the windows'?"
Reply "Yeah, 'listened at the doors and windows'".
1578 "'And also'?"
Reply "'And checked on our own rooms and', 'on some visits other people's apartments'. But I don't think it was like, I don't, it's the word 'initial' 'Initially we'd only check on our rooms', I don't think that was necessarily true, I think we would be listening at the window just to make sure no-one was awake".
1578 "So we could take out that 'initial' then?"
Reply "You can just say, yeah".

1578 "'I'm aware we'?"
00.28.50 Reply "Well, 'I'm aware that we checked our own rooms and also listened at other apartment doors and windows' and then 'maybe on occasion, on some occasions we actually entered the other rooms as well'. The next paragraph, I don't think I was quite so specific about, , 'Other people's apartments were on deadlock', but I think when I, well, so that's wrong. 'On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry's apartment as well as Rachael and Matt's', that's true. I'm not sure about taking their keys, I think I, I think I definitely took Matt and Rachael's keys, but I entered Gerry's flat through the patio door".
1578 "Okay. So, 'I had taken their keys and recall the door was deadlocked, I needed to turn the key two times, the shutters were down'?"
Reply "Yeah, yeah, I don't think, I don't think,".
1578 "'I recall that Gerry and Kate's I had to get (inaudible)'".
Reply "That, that, that is me talking about our arrangements in our flat, so it's kind of all fused into one there. So maybe just to clarify that, it would be easier to say 'In our flat we closed the patio door, shut and locked', 'shut the blinds, the shutters down and locked the internal window, double locked the front door after we went out and the patio door was also locked, was closed and locked'. So that was, that was our arrangements inside our flat. And then on Sunday 'I recall I checked Kate and Gerry's apartment as well as Rachael and Matt's and my recollection is that I needed Matt's key to check on their room and I had it, but I didn't need Kate and Gerry's key because they went through the patio door', we went through the patio door to cross in and look into the children's bedroom. So, at the time, I have to say, I didn't really think that, about the differences in how, in how we were, the security in the, in the rooms was, but, I definitely did not go in through Gerry's and Kate's main, double locked door or anything, I'm sure I went through the patio, so I think they were doing things differently from Matt and Rachael, at least from the ground floor perspective, right from the word go".

1578 "Okay".
00.31.51 Reply "But, yes, the business about 'The door was deadlocked and I recall I needed to turn it two times', actually that is not recalling anything, that's just describing how, how we, left, left five 'D' when we went to, went to dinner, closed the patio door, deadlocked the main door, put the shutters down and".
1578 "Sorry, whereabouts are you now?"
Reply "I'm just clarifying what I've already said there. As I say, that this is sort of two different, threads of the same conversation here. One conversation is, what did, what did we do in our flat, and that is the shutters were down on all the windows, the internal windows behind the shutters were shut and locked, and the patio door was, was locked from the inside and, and then we went out through the main door into the car park and double locked the door. We were conscious that, if you, you only do one lock on the main door then it can be opened from the inside but if you double lock it then, then, then you need the key to get in or out".

1578 "Yes".
Reply "And then the second point is, what did I do on Sunday, and on Sunday, on one of the visits at least, I went back to five 'D' and checked on our children, but I also went to five 'D' on Matt's and I, I'm pretty sure that I needed Matt's key to do that, so I think they were doing the same as us. But when, for Kate and Gerry, I just went in through the patio steps and, and just across to the room. It says 'I recall that their front door was accessed from the car park but immediate access to their apartment was gained from the pool side', and I think that's, I mean, that was correct on, on, on that particular night and that particular visit, it's whether that was what they were doing every night, I'm not sure, but I think, they generally were going in through, through the, through the patio door".
1578 "So if we put 'generally' in between 'but' and 'immediate', 'But generally immediate access to the apartment w as gained from the pool side'?"
Reply "The pool side, yes, to their apartment, yeah. The rest of that page, as far as, 'Back to the apartment but I can't be sure', is fine.

All the meals were included in the booking as was a limited choice in drinks, if anything else was ordered there may have been a need to have made an additional payment. I recall that orders may have been put onto a bar bill and paid at the end of the week.
Sunday we left the restaurant early around 22:00hours the service was reasonable and quite quick, times didn't vary all that much we may have had a drink at the bar before going back to the apartment but I cannot be sure.
Generally of an evening we would drink beer or have a few glasses of wine, generally three to four glasses, I can honestly say that no-one in our group was ever drunk. I'd say that generally we had five-six bottle of wine between the group of nine, it was a similar amount most nights.


Reply "Yeah. I think rather than, at one point I know, Madeleine and Sean and Amelie did eat lunch in, in Dave and Fi's apartment, so rather than 'each day' it might be worth just saying 'most days'. I think they, they generally, had their lunch separate, I think. So it says 'Kate and Gerry had lunch in their apartment as they did each day', but there was certainly an occasion on one of them, sort of a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, that they, that they ate up in we were all, all the kids were together at one point, it was a bit of a squeeze with everyone in there".

00.50.33 1578 "So if I say or if we say there 'I checked the McCANN's apartment by listening at the shutters'?"
Reply "Yeah, yeah, from outside, yeah. And that would have been true for Matt's as well. Certainly I didn't end up, after that first Sunday night, I don't really recall going into the other people's apartments with any, at all really, I think it was largely a listen to make sure all was quiet and a check on your own. And everyone was doing this, with a listen outside. So there were fairly regular listens and then slightly less regular visits inside by people, individual, parents. It says 'All appeared to be well' rather than 'too well'. 'It all appeared too well' sounds a bit ominous".

Reply "Yeah, I went into the apartment on Sunday. This is almost like a fusion of, of the two things. I mean, I didn't go into the apartment directly after the alarm had been raised, I don't think, we just sort of got to the, the exit, some people had gone in and some of us kind of formulated 'Right, where shall we', 'We'll have a quick look around while they're checking the apartment'. So this is, this is partly looking back at when you were, you had the plan out and said, 'Was there anywhere big like a wardrobe where you could hide'".

01.40.51 1578 "Yes".
Reply "And then I described, what I'd done on my Sunday check on their kids, when I actually did go in through the patio door and from, I'd, I'd come in through the patio door here and gone across sort of diagonally to the, the room where the children were and then just sort of listened at the door without actually entering. And then you said 'What else was in the room' and then I described that there was a table, sort of, I think a wooden table, a kind of traditional sort of table, and some seated area nearer, nearer the door and that the overall layout of the flat was very similar to the one that me and Jane were staying in, in terms of symmetry, the size of the rooms, but the furniture and the fittings were, were very different, because they were all individual flats, I think leased by MARK WARNER.So I'm not quite sure where, where that lot could go. But that's, I suppose it's on the video record anyway now. On the Sunday night I entered via the, via the patio, just went to the frame of the door and listened in the room, I didn't actually go in. And what I said then really, that the flat was very similar to ours in, in its layout, symmetry and, size, but the fittings were entirely different".
1578 "And, I suppose, chronologically, we can include that to your Sunday night".
Reply "Yeah, chronologically, that could".
1578 "We can move".
Reply "The description of the flat and what I thought the furniture was, and the fact that it resembled very, almost identically in fact, the, the layout of our flat".
1578 "On the Sunday night".
Reply "Umm".
1578 "So that can be moved to earlier in the statement?"
01.43.05 Reply "Yes, the Sunday night, yeah".
1578 "So if we continue chronologically then".
Reply "Yeah".


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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 14:50

Molly I was dreading tackling that one, so a big from me.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 14:57

Stella wrote:Molly I was dreading tackling that one, so a big from me.

You're very welcome, Stella, you know, Russell makes me laugh. I'm almost done with the full statement, will post it up somewhere when finished.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Nina on 09.11.11 16:08

Snip from Kate's book,

They enjoyed their meal. "There weren't many other diners...it was very cold and windy...I discovered that five layers of clothing were required to keep me comfortable. We nipped back to our resepctive apartments every half-hour to check on the children - apart from Racael, since Matt had stayed behind, and Dave and Fiona, who had a state-of-the-art baby monitor with them. Our visits also gave us a convenient opportunity to pop into the loo or, in my case, to pick up an extra cardigan".

And from DW's statement,

DW: "Well no nothing, we were all looking forward to having a, a good week really. I mean it was, the weather was not very good, it was quite cold I'm not sure whether the first, the first, first night I remember giving a jumper to Kate that I'd, taken a sort of parka zip up thing that might have been the first night I don't know, because she'd only got a, a flimsy shirt on or whatever. It was cold and I lent her my jumper and after that we went down some of us had jackets on, it was quite cold, and the Tapas restaurant was, although it had a roof on it and it had a sort of Perspex screen down the side it was actually open at the end so you could get a, quite a breeze blowing through, but no I mean we were just all having a, having a nice meal and, and it was like that every night really."


So DW loaned her a zip up parka and Kate clearly says her child check gave her the opportunity to get another cardigan, yet........ Gerry made the comment that Madeleine was sleeping on top of the covers because it was warm

And yes Stella it does read as though the zip up was loaned before they even went down to the Tapas bar.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Daisy on 09.11.11 17:36

@Nina wrote:Snip from Kate's book,

They enjoyed their meal. "There weren't many other diners...it was very cold and windy...I discovered that five layers of clothing were required to keep me comfortable. We nipped back to our resepctive apartments every half-hour to check on the children - apart from Racael, since Matt had stayed behind, and Dave and Fiona, who had a state-of-the-art baby monitor with them. Our visits also gave us a convenient opportunity to pop into the loo or, in my case, to pick up an extra cardigan".

And from DW's statement,

DW: "Well no nothing, we were all looking forward to having a, a good week really. I mean it was, the weather was not very good, it was quite cold I'm not sure whether the first, the first, first night I remember giving a jumper to Kate that I'd, taken a sort of parka zip up thing that might have been the first night I don't know, because she'd only got a, a flimsy shirt on or whatever. It was cold and I lent her my jumper and after that we went down some of us had jackets on, it was quite cold, and the Tapas restaurant was, although it had a roof on it and it had a sort of Perspex screen down the side it was actually open at the end so you could get a, quite a breeze blowing through, but no I mean we were just all having a, having a nice meal and, and it was like that every night really."


So DW loaned her a zip up parka and Kate clearly says her child check gave her the opportunity to get another cardigan, yet........ Gerry made the comment that Madeleine was sleeping on top of the covers because it was warm

And yes Stella it does read as though the zip up was loaned before they even went down to the Tapas bar.

DW thinks it might have been the first night when she lent Kate her jumper. But the first night they ate at the Millenium and not the Tapas restaurant. So DW must be mistaken there.

I thought that too Nina. There's poor Kate sat at the dining table with FIVE layers of clothing on just to make her 'comfortable'! Heck, she must have looked like the Michelin Man! Brrrrr... it must have been very cold. Yet, as far as I can see, the apartments where the children were sleeping had no heating? I know from experience, those type of apartments (tiled floors) can get very chilly on a night without heating if the sun hasn't been out.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by PeterMac on 09.11.11 17:54

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/LPFR/2007/4/29/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
Faro.
7pm 21ºC 72ºF
11pm 17ºC, 62º F
Not hot, but not freezing either. Light jumper or thick shirt weather.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Nina on 09.11.11 17:59

@Daisy wrote:
@Nina wrote:Snip from Kate's book,

They enjoyed their meal. "There weren't many other diners...it was very cold and windy...I discovered that five layers of clothing were required to keep me comfortable. We nipped back to our resepctive apartments every half-hour to check on the children - apart from Racael, since Matt had stayed behind, and Dave and Fiona, who had a state-of-the-art baby monitor with them. Our visits also gave us a convenient opportunity to pop into the loo or, in my case, to pick up an extra cardigan".

And from DW's statement,

DW: "Well no nothing, we were all looking forward to having a, a good week really. I mean it was, the weather was not very good, it was quite cold I'm not sure whether the first, the first, first night I remember giving a jumper to Kate that I'd, taken a sort of parka zip up thing that might have been the first night I don't know, because she'd only got a, a flimsy shirt on or whatever. It was cold and I lent her my jumper and after that we went down some of us had jackets on, it was quite cold, and the Tapas restaurant was, although it had a roof on it and it had a sort of Perspex screen down the side it was actually open at the end so you could get a, quite a breeze blowing through, but no I mean we were just all having a, having a nice meal and, and it was like that every night really."


So DW loaned her a zip up parka and Kate clearly says her child check gave her the opportunity to get another cardigan, yet........ Gerry made the comment that Madeleine was sleeping on top of the covers because it was warm

And yes Stella it does read as though the zip up was loaned before they even went down to the Tapas bar.

DW thinks it might have been the first night when she lent Kate her jumper. But the first night they ate at the Millenium and not the Tapas restaurant. So DW must be mistaken there.

I thought that too Nina. There's poor Kate sat at the dining table with FIVE layers of clothing on just to make her 'comfortable'! Heck, she must have looked like the Michelin Man! Brrrrr... it must have been very cold. Yet, as far as I can see, the apartments where the children were sleeping had no heating? I know from experience, those type of apartments (tiled floors) can get very chilly on a night without heating if the sun hasn't been out.

Hi Daisy, yes Gerry was saying the evening of the 3rd was warm and Madeleine was on the covers not under them but appears that the earlier week was cool, in fact very chilly. Didn't JT borrow a mans fleece for her check, but her rubber flip flops and no socks/stockings/tights so she could wear the things must have made her very chilled. So was there a sudden raise in the night time temperature?

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Nina on 09.11.11 18:02

@PeterMac wrote:http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/LPFR/2007/4/29/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
Faro.
7pm 21ºC 72ºF
11pm 17ºC, 62º F
Not hot, but not freezing either. Light jumper or thick shirt weather.

Ah thanks PeterMac, is that this week or the week in May 2007?

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A lack of detail - and - was Matt there on Sunday night, or not?

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.11.11 9:28

1. Matt Oldfield is sure he wasn't there at the Tapa restaurant on the Sunday.

2. Fiona Payne says the same.

3. David Payne says only that 'Matthew was absent one night', he says he can't remember which one. Is he being evasive or has he a poor memory. His wife recalls Matthew being absent Sunday night.

4. By contrast, Russell O'Brien says (from Molly's post), referring to Sunday: "...but I also went to five 'D' on Matt's and I, I'm pretty sure that I needed Matt's key to do that, so I think they were doing the same as us".

5. There is huge evasiveness and not a few inconsistencies on the checking arrangements. There's little detail about who went, how often, and there are inconsistencies over things like what doors they used for access and whether they entered, what they did when they entered, and whether they checked their friends' apartments or not. Taken as a whole this would indicate to me that there was no checking being done.

6. If you couple the fact that 'there was always someone ill one night' with the absence of checking, it would be a reasonable working assumption that the group might have made collective child care arrangements with all the children sleeping in one apartment.

7. I also sense a great deal of vagueness about what they were actually doing on the Sunday; there are many comments such as 'I think', 'I can't remember', 'as far as I recall' etc. That would fit with the possibility that something happened Saturday night/Sunday morning wich needed discussion.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 10.11.11 9:45

@Tony Bennett wrote:6. If you couple the fact that 'there was always someone ill one night' with the absence of checking, it would be a reasonable working assumption that the group might have made collective child care arrangements with all the children sleeping in one apartment.
From Matt's statement, I think we can see that this is what they intended to do, even before they went on that holiday.

From Matt Oldfield’s Rogatory Interview:

And then the holiday came about because, independently we'd been on sort of various holidays and we'd sort of often talked about them, sort of being friends and we then went on a joint holiday to Greece the year before with David and Fiona, Russell and Jane, but not with the McCANNs, we'd been to Greece, and sort of spent a week on the beach there and then sort of thought about booking a holiday the next year and then Dave and Fiona, I think they'd already been on holiday with Gerry and Kate on another occasion, they wanted to involve them in the group and we ended up going for a MARK WARNER complex in Portugal. Some of us had been to MARK WARNER, various MARK WARNER resorts before, we'd been to the Greek one in Lemnos, originally before G***e was born, it was just a last minute deal and it was great, it was all inclusive, we all like sport, and sunshine and it was sort of all inclusive and it was just a very, sort of relaxing sort of place to go, so we went out there and we were quite keen to do that again because everybody in the group is pretty sporty, and if you have a lot of people together you can share sort of the child care arrangements and it's also very relaxing for everybody. Because when we went to Greece it was like the fastest holiday I'd ever been on because there was only about an hour when they were asleep at lunch each day and a couple of hours in the evening where you were actually sort off child care duties, so the week went by in about sort of six hours, it was all sort of, it was very quick.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 10.11.11 10:11

Stella wrote: so we went out there and we were quite keen to do that again because everybody in the group is pretty sporty, and if you have a lot of people together you can share sort of the child care arrangements and it's also very relaxing for everybody.


Checking every 30 minutes is not a "relaxing holiday for everybody", which must mean this is not what they had originally intended to do.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by tigger on 10.11.11 11:26

Sunday was also the day for the cleaner who gave a statement.

She saw Maddie and the twins leaving 5a - carrying plates with cakes or food (to where? DP's apartments?) . She particularly noted their trainers, which had little pink lights along the sole, which lit up when they walked.

This must have been late morning?

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 10.11.11 14:03

Name: Fatima Maria Serafim da Silva Espada

Profession: Cleaner Date : 2007: 05: 08

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FATIMA_ESPADA.htm

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same kind of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.11.11 14:40

Stella wrote:Name: Fatima Maria Serafim da Silva Espada

Profession: Cleaner Date : 2007: 05: 08

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FATIMA_ESPADA.htm

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.
In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, and bearing in mind that the cleaner seeing the group was by chance, this would tend to suggest all the following:

1) that the account of the Tapas 9 that they would tend to all have lunch in David and Fiona Payne's apartment is correct (with the McCanns contributing some food to the occasion, perhaps bought by them at Baptista earlier that morning)

2) that the McCanns were in fact living in Apartment 5A (at least on the Sunday)

3) that Madeleine was alive on Sunday

4) that she owned and wore a pair of shoes with flashing lights.

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 9:13

@Tony Bennett wrote:
Stella wrote:Name: Fatima Maria Serafim da Silva Espada

Profession: Cleaner Date : 2007: 05: 08

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FATIMA_ESPADA.htm

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same kind of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.
In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, and bearing in mind that the cleaner seeing the group was by chance, this would tend to suggest all the following:

1) that the account of the Tapas 9 that they would tend to all have lunch in David and Fiona Payne's apartment is correct (with the McCanns contributing some food to the occasion, perhaps bought by them at Baptista earlier that morning)

I have been thinking about this for a long time now and to me it still doesn't add up. If the McCann children had been eating sandwiches in 5a, why would Kate allow them to be moved from one apartment on one floor, to another apartment on another floor, 'before' they had finished eating? If the others wanted the McCann's to join them for lunch (with or without their own food), why didn't they join them 'before' starting to eat?

2) that the McCanns were in fact living in Apartment 5A (at least on the Sunday)

3) that Madeleine was alive on Sunday

The cleaner assumed it was Madeleine, based on the fact that she saw 3 children leaving that apartment. But could she have identified MM? She only remembers a skirt and flashing shoes, so it would seem she did not get a look at her face?

4) that she owned and wore a pair of shoes with flashing lights.

Those types of shoes were very popular at that time. In fact you can get some now by Skechers with flashing lights on your toes. Most children have a pair of these and if some in a group of children have them, they all want them.

I keep thinking about these questions. Why was near empty plates being taken up to 5H? Were they being 'returned' to the rightful apartment? If so, could someone have taken a plate full of sandwiches 'down' to 5A for some reason? Could another little girl, someone that the twins knew well have been with them, like Tanner's girl for instance and the cleaner thought it was Madeleine?

I'm really not keen on taking anything for granted with this one. Yes, it could have been Madeleine, but we don't know for sure.

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