Re: Do you believe something happened earlier than May 3rd ? If so, how did the McCanns manage to deceive everyone at the creche?

by Phoebe 02.02.18 14:16

Perhaps "Kym's " game is indeed a misspelling of "Kim's" game. Once again, it seems a rather unsuitable choice for three year olds and seems to be recommended at it's most basic level for 5-6 yr olds . It would appear that there were only four children left to playing it during its allotted half hour, with two children having been signed out by 12.10 p.m. I can't imagine it was a rip-roaring success given the numbers present and their age!

by polyenne 02.02.18 14:30

But a programme of events is planned well in advance and without knowledge of numbers in attendance !!

by Phoebe 02.02.18 15:38

polyenne wrote:But a programme of events is planned well in advance and without knowledge of numbers in attendance !!

Exactly! But one would expect a professional nanny to spot the need to adapt in the event of such low attendance for some of the sessions and the fact that ALL of the children that week were at the lowest end of the 3-5 age span. The planned schedule might have been suitable later in the season for a larger group of slightly older children who were interested/understood rockets, aliens and outer space; who were confident enough to submerge themselves when diving; who would enjoy boating on the sea; who could wield a scissors etc. to make masks; who could be expected to have the coordination to hit a ball at mini-tennis; if there had been enough of them to actually make a mini-dance or athletics on the grass enjoyable. The outdoor activities on the beach and sailing might have suited 4-5yr olds later that summer when the weather was pleasant. I do believe this is a real template of activities, but not that it was adhered to by Madeleine's group that week. Perhaps Cat. did create it, but I'd bet she did not stick to it. I don't think the dive and swim, the mini-dance, or the grass Olympics ever happened, nor indeed some of the other activities described.
For example, on Monday p.m. they allegedly went on a "garden adventure" from 3.30-4.30 pm. Well, Tia and William were there by 3.30 pm, Madeleine had bailed out by 3.30 (having just arrived 15 mins previously) Ella somehow managed to find them half way through the "adventure" at 4pm and Alexander didn't turn up til 4.30 when all the "fun" was over! So, a total of TWO children were off on a "garden adventure" while Ella somehow signed in back at base half an hour into it. (if Cat was off exploring who received her at sign in?) Some "adventure"!

by polyenne 02.02.18 15:58

BTW, a Kym O'Brien worked for Mark Warner in Europe between 2011 & 2013 !! But let's not get too carried away...........

by MayMuse 02.02.18 16:21

I'm beginning to wonder if Madeleine ever attended the crèche ?

When my children went to a similar crèche on holiday, the nannies made a point of encouraging the children to show Mummy and Daddy what they had done and they brought whatever it was home, finger paintings, collage etc AND on a trip out we were presented with photographs taken which we could purchase, and we had to sign a form giving permission for any photos of them which were used either in the brochure but mainly they adorned the walls of the crèche depicting happy children and their adventures as to encourage other holiday makers with children to attend. They always wore "good quality" wristbands too which showed in every photo as they didn't take them off until the flight home!

Something is very amiss surroundung the crèche and nannies, in my opinion for what it's worth.

by **Tony Bennett** 02.02.18 17:49

MayMuse wrote:I'm beginning to wonder if Madeleine ever attended the crèche?

SNIPPED

Something is very amiss surroundung the crèche and nannies, in my opinion for what it's worth.

MayMuse: I'm beginning to wonder if Madeleine ever attended the crèche?

REPLY: I think you are getting very very close to a solution to the puzzle Lizzy Hideho posed at the beginning of this thread

MayMuse: Something is very amiss surroundung the crèche and nannies, in my opinion for what it's worth.

REPLY: Very amiss indeed with the nannies, I agree

by Phoebe 02.02.18 17:57

While I'm on this hobby-horse big grin

! On Sunday from 10-11 a.m. Madeleine's group were scheduled to go out onto the nearby grass for "parachute (and?) grass time. There were only 5 children in the group so the "parachute" would have needed to be quite small and the arms of 3 yr. olds tire very quickly. At best, I imagine 10 mins of actual parachute play. The bulk of the allocated hour would probably have been spent playing around on the grass. On Tuesday, they allegedly braved the rain which had driven off the McCanns to spend two hours from 2.30-4.30 pm at a wet beach, first buying ices (took an hour!) then another hour spent on "build a city beach play". Remarkably, while this tame (if damp) beach excursion took two hours, the mini sail was accomplished in half that time! So, children were brought to the beach, kitted out in life-jackets, allocated a boat to use and an "instructor", given a safety rules talk, "ferried by launch out to the open sea" (according to Cat) transferred onto a catamaran, given a sail trip, transferred back from the catamaran to the launch and returned to shore. This was then repeated for a second group including Madeleine, eager to have another sail. Then they were assembled, stripped of life-jackets and walked back to the Ocean Club to arrive in time for "Puzzle Time" at 11 a.m. All this magically accomplished in ONE hour!

by **sharonl** 02.02.18 19:49

Cat Baker claims that she worked for agency that provided child care to Mark Warner and that she was employed by and arrived at the Ocean Club on 21st March 2007. In one statement she says that it was her first visit to the Ocean club and in another she says that she was there in 2006. Her 2007 contract was ran from March to November 2007.

Cat also told the PJ that she had a lot of experience in child care.

Cat was just 20 in 2007 and she was a student at Northampton University.

Did she really take a 9 month contract in 2007? Was she at the Ocean Club in 2006?

I'm beginning to wonder if Cat Baker really ever was sent to work at the Ocean Club crèche or did she descend on PDL after Madeleine disappeared, along with all the other cover up merchants.

by MayMuse 02.02.18 19:57

Sharoni wrote
I'm beginning to wonder if Cat Baker really ever was sent to work at the Ocean Club crèche or did she descend on PDL after Madeleine disappeared, along with all the other cover up merchants.

I've thought that about Charlotte Pennington? There for a purpose ?

by polyenne 02.02.18 20:33

Surely if one believes Charlotte Pennington was there as “an asset”, then by virtue of her having arrived on the same Gatwick flight as some of the Tapas group, you have to accept a pre-meditated scheme ?

by **sharonl** 02.02.18 20:55

MayMuse wrote:Sharoni wrote
I'm beginning to wonder if Cat Baker really ever was sent to work at the Ocean Club crèche or did she descend on PDL after Madeleine disappeared, along with all the other cover up merchants.

I've thought that about Charlotte Pennington? There for a purpose ?

Neither of them are nannies now. Charlotte Pennington is an actress, the last I heard was that she was working for a hotel that ran murder mystery weekends.

She was on the same transport bus as Jane Tanner.

Cat Baker, a 20 year old student, came back and travelled to Paris and New York. Student loans? big grin

I don't think so.

by **sharonl** 02.02.18 21:06

polyenne wrote:Surely if one believes Charlotte Pennington was there as “an asset”, then by virtue of her having arrived on the same Gatwick flight as some of the Tapas group, you have to accept a pre-meditated scheme ?

Sadly yes, but I don't believe that Madeleines' death was pre-meditated. But, given that Gerry wasn't there to f****** enjoy himself, I suspect that there was a plan of some sort in place. Could this have gone wrong and resulted in Madeleines' death? after all, Gerry did phone home to say that it was "a disaster". What exactly did he mean by that? What was the disaster?

by Phoebe 02.02.18 21:12

Curiouser and curiouser! In Cat. B's rogatory interview she implies that there were 3 trips to the beach. One, she alleges, took place on Thurs. a.m. (for the mini sail) another was in the afternoon to buy ice-cream and yet another was to play on the sand. No mention of any "build a city" activity, but she mentions that they brought buckets, spades and hula hoops. Note, she clearly implies the ice-cream trip was a separate outing to the "play-on-the-beach" trip -

"During the week which Madeleine stayed in the club there were THREE events organized that included a trip to the beach. One of these events took place on Thursday in the morning, as referred to previously. Another of these events consisted of a trip to the beach with "hula hoops", shovels and buckets, etc, and THE OTHER trip to the beach was in order to eat ice cream. Together, the TRIPS to the beach took place in the afternoon but I cannot state precisely which DAYS. There should be a recording of this in the Mark Warner registers." (my capitals)
Now according the the schedule the beach-trip to buy ices immediately preceded the playing on the beach session. If Cat had been there surely she would have remembered this and referred to ONE trip for ices followed by beach play. If there were three trips when did the third occur and what did it replace on the timetable?

editing to add that in her May 10th P.J. statement she claims they went to the beach at 3.30 p.m. on Tues. AND Wednesday (On Wed. they should have been at "grass Olympics"). For some reason it appears the "Olympics" went by the wayside! If we believe the ice-cream trip took place on Tues. as scheduled, then logically, she had only 4 children she could have brought to the beach for beach-play on Wednesday afternoon - Jessica, Ella (in her slipper with her sore foot) Alexander and Madeleine. Are we to believe that she marched just four children, one hobbling, all the way to the beach to make sand-castles? She must have been clock watching since the activity was from 3.30-4.30 p.m. yet Jessica was back in time to be signed out at 4.30 p.m.

by Doug D 02.02.18 21:18

Sharonl:

‘Neither of them are nannies now’.

According to her FB page, Cat is back at it after a stint at the helm of ‘Posh Kids’ magazine:

‘Founder and CEO of NYC Elite Nannies’

by **sharonl** 02.02.18 21:27

Doug D wrote:Sharonl:

‘Neither of them are nannies now’.

According to her FB page, Cat is back at it after a stint at the helm of ‘Posh Kids’ magazine:

‘Founder and CEO of NYC Elite Nannies’

So no longer with Posh Kids then?

Do you know what she was supposed to be studying at university? Did she take time out?

by Phoebe 02.02.18 22:17

Oh dear! Poor Elizabeth N.! You see, on Tuesday May 1st p.m. all of her group were brought to the beach between 3.30- 4.30p.m. -

Date: 2007.05.10

Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos
Officer responsible: Manuel Pinho, Inspector
Description and result of diligence

Today (10 May 07), accompanied by Joao Barreiras and Catriona Baker, the 'nanny' responsible for the missing minor, retraced the places and times at which they left the resort area to go to Praia da Luz. A photographic report [of this journey] is attached:

- We were told by Catriona that the only days they went to the beach were Tuesday afternoon (1 May 2007) between 15:30 and 16:30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock (see attached table [of creche activities])

On Tuesday they were scheduled to get an ice-cream treat. But Elizabeth's mummy somehow signed her out at 4 p.m. half an hour after she had left for the beach! (Cat. says the trip was from 3.30 -4.30 pm.) Did her mummy have to collect her from the beach? Where did she sign the register at 4 p.m.? At the beach?

by polyenne 03.02.18 7:06

There’s been some previous interest in the Ns.

The Ns flew out of Gatwick on the same day & flight as some of the Tapas group.

IIRC it was RNs written letters and numerals on the crèche sheets that were likened in many respects to those of GMs.

Does anyone know if EN was one of the “pretty little blond girls” and if her father RN had a passing resemblance to GM or ROB ?

by plebgate 03.02.18 8:51

Very good debate and some good posts giving food for thought from Phoebe and also hope that Hi-D-H keeps posting her excellent work. thumbup

by roz 03.02.18 8:55

My thoughts exactly Plebgate.

by **HiDeHo** 03.02.18 15:21

plebgate wrote:Very good debate and some good posts giving food for thought from Phoebe and also hope that Hi-D-H keeps posting her excellent work.

Thanks so much to everyone for the encouragement to continue researching this possibility.

I m currently working on trying to put together a timeline of the creche but it involves revisiting and scrutinising all the creche records, tennis records, activity sheets, guest rogatory statements, and T7 rogatory statements and Nanny statements as well as trying to make sense of the MANY Diagram of Events for each day (and more). I need to have ALL the links to 'prove' my scenario is possible, for others as well as myself....

I am trying to get the perspective of what happened around the creche entries and whether (as I believe) there was a way that the McCanns were able to 'pretend' (fpr want of a better word) that Maddie attended all week.

Here is the basic start of my effort...the VERY beginning... BEFORE I believe something happened...

It's likely going to take quite a few days before I establish the whole 'picture' so I may appear MIA from this thread for a while but believe me, this is SO important to me that I would be doing it only for myself (as I originally did all the timelines)

I believe they managed to deceive everyone into believing Maddie was in the creche and in the OP I have suggested what may have happened...

This timeline will, hopefully, give details of how they achieved it... BASED ON FILES.

Please bear with me.

Timeline of creche wrote:Thank you for the encouragement to continue this thread...

I would like to do a SUMMARY of what I compiled in the OP by offering a POSSIBLE SCENARIO using the details from the original OP

I will base it on something happening to Maddie prior to Tuesday morning and using details from the files....

I have established that it was ENTIRELY probable that the creche room for Minis Kids Club was shared by ALL the children allocated to the two nannies (Catriona and Emma).

The was NO Minis 1 and Minis 2. It was a room for approximately 14 children.

SUNDAY MORNING
Family and friends go to Millenium for Breakfast.
9.45am - Kate enters Maddie into creche at main reception after 10 min walk.
Ella was not taken to creche that morning possibly because of her foot?.
No record for the twins creche
Families went to a meeting at the tapas to arrange tennis lessons.
12.15pm - Gerry picks up Maddie from creche

MINI CLUB ROOM SUNDAY MORNING
3 girls + 2 boys Catriona
Unknown (up to 7) Emma

SUNDAY AFTERNOON
Family spend time at the pool
2.35pm Kate takes Twins to creche
2.45pm - (10 min walk with Russell?) Gerry signs Maddie into creche
2.45pm Russell signs Ella into creche
3.30pm - Russell picks up Ella after 45 mins before Splish Splash pool time.
5.30pm - Gerry and Kate pick up Maddie and Twins from High tea

SUNDAY AFTERNOON MINI CLUB ROOM
4 Girls + 2 Boys Catriona
Unknown (up to 7) Emma

-----------------------------

MONDAY MORNING

Breakfast in apartment
9-9.15am - Kate starts tennis
9.15am Russell signs Ella in creche
9.20am Twins signed into creche
9.30am Gerry signs Maddie into creche

by **HiDeHo** 03.02.18 15:35

Thanks to Anna Esse for the translation from (Police Association?) Enfants Kidnappes [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Maddie related posts with Google Translation http://forum4.aimoo.com/madeleinemccanncontroversy/WELCOME-to-HDH-Controversy-Info/Enfants-Kidnappes-Police-Association-Maddie-1-2511637.html

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The McCann case: anomalies in the case file.

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Enfants Kidnappés

22/11/08

Since a small part of the case file - the DVD version was made accessible to the public, a great deal of ink has flowed. We note that it is necessary to be cautious as to its contents. In fact, it is only 17% of the complete case file and certain details are only of interest in relation to the complete file and not taken out of their context.

You probably know that our team, at the association, is comprised mainly of professionals from the field of police work. As such, we have analysed the case file and from the first pages, we have identified a few anomalies. Thus, the registers from the Kids Club appeared to be incomplete. Certain gaps have not been explained.

Thus we note that on May 1st 2007, Madeleine McCann's name is on the Kids Club regsiter. She arrived at 9.30am, dropped off by Gerry. According to the register, Gerry spent the morning playing tennis. He went back to fetch Madeleine at 12.20pm. Where things seem stranger to us is in the entries for the afternoon. Gerry drops Madeleine off at the Kids Club at 2.30pm and he spends his afternoon, again according to the register, playing tennis and at the swimming pool. Oddly, no one went back to fetch Madeleine in the evening! No signature for the evening of May 1st 2007. Why? Why did no one sign the register that evening?

Various explanations are possible.

It could be imagined that the parents arrived late to pick up Madeleine and that they didn't take the time to sign the register. In that case, why isn't that made clear in the case file? Why is there no mention of this possible lateness? And above all, why were they late? Right in the middle of an investigation into the mysterious disappearance of a little four year-old girl, these details are important. But the anomalies continue the following day.

According to the register for May 2nd 2007, the day before Madeleine's disappearance, Kate dropped Maddie off at the Kids Club at 9.20am. Madeleine was picked up at 12.30pm but it's not Kate or Gerry's signature on the register. Someone else has signed the register in the space for parents. The signature of Cat nanny, in other words, CATRIONA BAKER is found there.

Here too, you could imagine various explanations. The parents arrived late (once again?) and in a hurry (why?), they didn't sign the register. You could think that they forgot, for the second time, to sign the register. You could imagine that Catriona had finished her shift and as the parents had not yet come to fetch Maddie, Catriona signed the register then took Madeleine to her parents. You could imagine lots of things. But no explanation is provided in the case file. Catriona didn't mention it in her interview, the parents neither. But this kind of detail raises questions that need to be resolved. Too many unanswered questions, too many whys, too many gaps, not enough explanation.

These explanations could go in both directions. Thus, the investigators must wonder if Maddie didn't disappear sooner than May 3rd? If she was indeed present present at the Kids Club on the afternoon of May 1st? Why didn't anyone sign the register? Was she actually present at the Kids Club on the morning of May 2nd? Why did Catriona sign in the space for parents? Why does Kate's signature on the register for May 2nd seem different from Kate's other signatures? Where were the parents if someone else signed for them?

Certainly, these anomalies may only be trivial details, but these details could equally be significant, even fundamental to the investigation. Don't forget we are talking about the disappearance of a little four year-old girl. We cannot allow ourselves to leave these questions unanswered.

These anomalies, which are the first of a long series, were communicate to whom they may concern. And it is in referring to the article on SOS Madeleine of November 19th, we discover that a hand-writing report would be necessary. This confirms our suspicions and implicitly confirms certain rumours mentioning forged pieces of writing, forged signatures....manipulated documents...signatures added several days after the date indicated...etc.

If this report, that SOS Madeleine speaks of, confirms our our suspicions (and the rumours) these details which we have officially revealed, are then clearly less "trivial" !!!!

by **sharonl** 03.02.18 16:25

If the crèche records had been forged, manipulated, tampered with, it could hardly be the work of Kate and Gerry McCann, not without assistance from someone on the inside. If the Ocean club and the nannies were 100% innocent inn this matter the records would not be suspect and if they were, surely the management would want to know why and who was responsible.

by Phoebe 03.02.18 16:29

Well done to HiDeHo for the volume of research done so far and that now being undertaken. bravo

Just a small point. There may have been even more children in the mini club than Cat's and Emma's combined charges. Remember, Kirsty Maryan claimed that her group (juniors) were also combined with the mini club. -

"The deponent further clarifies that the Junior group does not find itself subdivided from the other groups, in that, at this moment, there are not enough children that permit it;"

By my count there were four other potential children aged 6-9 years. The three Edmonds boys and a six year old Hyne girl. They may not all have attended, but some have, hence Kirsty's explanation.

by **HiDeHo** 03.02.18 17:22

sharonl wrote:If the crèche records had been forged, manipulated, tampered with, it could hardly be the work of Kate and Gerry McCann, not without assistance from someone on the inside. If the Ocean club and the nannies were 100% innocent inn this matter the records would not be suspect and if they were, surely the management would want to know why and who was responsible.

Two weeks prior to the McCanns visiting PdL there were the results of the MW creche in Egypt showing signs of not being adequately responsible.

At the point Maddie disappeared, it would not have been obvious at the time that the creche was involved before Friday when the PJ were given the creche records.

John Hill and his wife Donna (Donna Louise Rafferty Hill - manager of the creche staff?) would likely have been aware of the BBC Whistleblower investigation and may have advised the creche staff to ensure their records were in good standing... OR....

Maybe Catriona was concerned about her job and filled in all she could.

We don't know, but its POSSIBLE.

BBC Whistleblower wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

1. BBC undercover reporters Imogen Willcocks and Ashley Kennedy were CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) checked by the BBC prior to their undercover work for the programme but none of the companies that feature in the programme were aware of this.

2. BBC undercover reporter Imogen Willcocks worked at:
- Just Learning in Cambourne from 7 to 27 November 2007.
- Buttons nursery in west London from July to August 2007.
- Mark Warner resort in Dahab, Egypt between 2 and 14 April 2007.

3. A second undercover BBC reporter, Ashley Kennedy, followed up Imogen Willcock's findings by working undercover at Mark Warner's La Plagne ski resort, in France, for two days from 17 December 2007 to see if procedures had been tightened since the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a Mark Warner resort in Portugal in May 2007. Again, she was employed by Mark Warner and working at the resort prior to her references and a CRB check being obtained.

(...)

Once, there were two of us looking after 13 children - when Mark Warner's own regulations state there should be no more than six per adult.
When I asked about my training, the manager just said: "You don't get official training as such. It's very relaxed, very laid-back here."

This is unlikely to be the approach parents think they are paying for.
Next, I was asked to supervise the children on the beach. Again, no one had checked if I had any swimming or rescue qualifications.
Even more worrying, I had to take children out on a boat without enough safety gear for all of them. When I raised the issue with my manager, he told me to go ahead with the boat trip anyway.
Also, for such a prestigious company with an upmarket reputation, Mark Warner has a very cavalier attitude to the employment laws of the countries where it operates, and is not controlled by Ofsted.
Like many of its staff in Dahab, I was there on a tourist visa.
Mark Warner should have paid for work permits but instead had us break Egyptian law on their behalf.
We were told we should just lie and say we were there on holiday, but Egypt is not the kind of country-where you want to end up in prison.
Three weeks after I returned from Egypt, the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz in Portugal made headlines around the world.
No one blamed the company or its staff for the little girl's disappearance, but given the case, I assumed the company would toughen up its vetting of nannies.
To test this out, a BBC colleague applied for a Mark Warner childcare job and was sent to an upmarket French ski resort.
Her false CV went unchecked and, months after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the company still didn't do a CRB check before she started work.

by Crackfox 03.02.18 18:21

I just wanted to echo the sentiments up-thread and say this is a really interesting discussion with some great insights. IMO one of the reasons this issue wasn't resolved by the PJ was because of cultural differences - I simply think they did not understand the set-up well enough and were unable to pick up on some of the issues raised above such as lack of evidence that Madeleine participated in the scheduled activities. Great work!

Do you believe something happened earlier than May 3rd ? If so, how did the McCanns manage to deceive everyone at the creche?