Where did the Tapas children sleep ?

According to the statement of P.J. inspector Vito Manuel Martins on the night Madeleine "vanished"  -    


"Gerald McCann, the missing girls father, informed him that the children of the couples friends were in another apartment and that they were being looked after by the mother of one of the friends, who was never present in the apartment whilst the inquiries were being carried out".


At first I thought something had been lost in translation and that what was meant was that the McCann's other children, the twins, were elsewhere (Payne's apartment) being looked after. However, the twins were still in 5A and were seen by Insp. Martins, as earlier in this same statement he says -


 "Inside the room that was indicated as being that of the missing girl, there were two children, babies, who appeared to sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room." 


Strange then, that none of the rest of the group ( as I recall) mention moving the O'Brien children and Oldfield's baby into the Paynes apartment so they could be minded during the search. Dianne Webster doesn't recall it, claiming she was just minding her own grandchildren   


 ”Yeah, you see there’s, there’s, I can’t quite get the timeline together because err at one point I also went out and had a walk round looking for her but I didn’t travel very far and I can’t remember at what point that was. It was obviously before I went back to the apartment to look after err Lily and Scarlet, now on that assumption I can only, I can only, I can only think that Fiona must have been in the apartment looking after them while I was out and my whole purpose of going back to the apartment was to let Fiona out for, to be with Kate."


Odd too that Dianne hesitates and "errs" when stating which children she was eager to get back to mind - "to look after err, Lily and Scarlet". 


(If this is on wrong thread Mods please move)

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I've edited two of your posts Phoebe where you have stated 5G instead of 5A - Admin

"Gerald McCann, the missing girls father, informed him that the children of the couples friends were in another apartment and that they were being looked after by the mother of one of the friends, who was never present in the apartment whilst the inquiries were being carried out".

That could mean one couples children - the couple would be "friends" plural.

There is no context for your quote.

Context is everything.

It should also be remembered that this witness testimony, Vitor Martins, was taken on 4th December 2007, seven months after the event when, unlike the McCanns and their friends, memory would be fading.  It is not verbatim, it is second or even third hand considering translation from English to Portuguese back to English.  It's possible but extremely unllikely that the witness had a direct conversation with Gerry McCann, I venture to suggest it would have been through a bi-lingual medium present at the time, such as Silvia Batista who seemed to be ever present in the midst of the mayhem.  At the time, it was a conversation between a police officer and the victim's father through an interpreter, not a formal witness statement.

That aside, It was only Fiona and David Payne who were in apartment 5 with the McCanns for any given time.  Dianne Webster was back at their apartment looking after the Payne children, Jane Tanner and Rachael Oldfield were lurking in and around their own apartments whilst Russell O'Brien/Matt Oldfield were making themselves useful here there and everywhere.

Jane Tanner's rogatory interview - April 2008

4078    “Did you stay sort of pretty much near to your apartment all night?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, well Evie was still up at this point so I’d sort of got her, she was still awake, so, I’d sort of, well I’d got her, I was holiday her but sort of just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move.  Rachael, because Grace was asleep, she was more moving around more, trying to, you know, see what was happening.  But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.

4078    “Who else did you speak to?”

Reply    “I’m trying to think of the order, it was sort of like, it was Rachael first, then it was Fi and I can’t remember when Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut, I don’t know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was there, but as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael went straight away to get them to say, so that I could tell the GNR, I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I don’t know if I told anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who was the translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the Police arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”.

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Having said that, I can't see how the whereabouts of the Tapas groups children on the night of 3rd/4th May - after Kate McCann raised the alarm, can have any bearing on the mystery of Madeleine's disappearance.  A non-starter methinks.

Could it be true then, that all the children were being cared for in one apartment by one of the group.  We know that one was missing from the Tapas each night.  Isn't this what the PJ thought?

In order to add credibility to the abduction tale, they would need to claim that the McCann children were home alone. We are also told that Gerry was a long time during his check on May 3rd when Russell was allegedly back at his apartment with a bug.

Could it be then, that on May 3rd, Gerry & Russell moved the sedated twins from the apartment where they were being cared for, back to 5a to make it look as if the children had been there all night?

Too have moved the twins earlier may not have worked as that would mean two people being absent from the table.

Also of interest here is the OC chef who says that he was told about a missing child at 9.20pm.  Did something go wrong and upset the proposed timeline?

sharonl wrote:Could it be true then, that all the children were being cared for in one apartment by one of the group.  We know that one was missing from the Tapas each night.  Isn't this what the PJ thought?

In order to add credibility to the abduction tale, they would need to claim that the McCann children were home alone. We are also told that Gerry was a long time during his check on May 3rd when Russell was allegedly back at his apartment with a bug.

Could it be then, that on May 3rd, Gerry & Russell moved the sedated twins from the apartment where they were being cared for, back to 5a to make it look as if the children had been there all night?

I believe this to be so, indeed I've expressed the opinion on many occasions in the past. 

Without further assurance, I can't be persuaded that the twins were sedated but I do believe they were accommodated in another apartment for a communal babysitting arrangement.  It would certainly help to explain why the McCanns and their friends declined to take advantage of the night creche and babysitting service offered by Warners, the McCanns feeble excuses aside.  No right minded parent would leave their three very young children alone in a strange place - anything could happen, least of all a group all doing the same and condoned by a grandparent.

The thing I find curious is the twins allegedly being left in the bedroom of apartment 5a whilst Kate McCann frantically 'searched' around 10:00pm, left to go to the Tapas to alert the group, the onslaught of friends and Ocean Club employees and later the GNR.  Who would leave their darling twins in the same room they claim their three year old daughter was abducted from only minutes before?

Somewhere, can't recall whether it was Kate McCann's autobiography (I'll check later), it was said that Gerry McCann stood guard over the bedroom door to stop anyone entering !?!  It was only two, or maybe three, police officers who said the twins were in the apartment bedroom but didn't respond to the noise and lights - this is contrary to the McCanns version.  I'm of the opinion that the police officers didn't actually see the twins in the bedroom, I think they were told the twins were there by the McCanns.  They, the McCanns, were told to move the twins in order for the police to take forensic photographs but it still doesn't confirm that the twins were 'seen' by any police officer.  

I was however previously addressing the original post which referred to the location of all the groups children on the night of 3rd/4th May - after Kate McCann raised the alarm.

ETA:  madeleine by KATE MCCANN

'People had been in and out of the apartment for the last three hours, and until one of the PJ officers stuck a piece of police tape across the doorway of the children’s room, it was Gerry who tried to make sure everyone kept clear of it. Now one of the PJ men (I remember him very distinctly: he was quite young and, I assumed, probably quite junior) entered the room, where the twins were still asleep, with a brush and a pair of latex gloves. He also tried to take fingerprints from Gerry and me.

Unsuccessfully, as it turned out: we had to provide them again the next day at the police station.'

Is that really feasible - police forensics examining the crime scene and taking finger prints, with a couple of sleeping children in the room?

There was some confusion over whether Kate did actually run back to the tapas or scream from the apartment?  If she had gone back to the Tapas bar, both Jane and Russell were allegedly near apt 5a. 

There is a lot of confusion over who was where at the time.  Some say that Jane Tanner didn't leave the table all night.  

Maybe you're right, maybe the twins were not moved and the McCanns claimed that they moved them between calling the police and their actual arrival.

We need to establish what really happened that evening, and who was where.

''We need to establish what really happened that evening, and who was where.''

And what they did.

sharonl wrote:We need to establish what really happened that evening, and who was where.

If only! 

With only the word of the McCanns and their friends to guide, plus the witness statements of a few impartial employees whom, in fairness, can't be expected to accurately recall the movements of a bunch of strangers on holiday, I feel that's mission impossible.

That has been the problem with this case from beginning to end.  There isn't realistically, one single witness that can be relied upon to enlighten.

From the statements of-

 Nelson Pacheco Da Costa GNR .


" The question made, the deponent states that the access to interior of the residence was accessed through a principal door- that is, a wood door which is placed facing north; 
. Inside, the deponent encountered the mother and two siblings of the missing minor"..... 
 "He says that in the apartment there were two beds and two cots placed in Madeleine's room, he does not remember their position. The children never woke up, he is sure, not knowing what position they were in, however he found this situation to be very strange, as a lot of noise was made."



Jose Roque GNR. -
 "Inside, the deponent encountered the mother and two siblings of the missing minor;"


Joao Barreiras - 


" He was shown the room the child had disappeared from, having noticed that people also entered and left that room without any care in the sense of preserving traces. Inside this room there were two children,  babies sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room. It was requested that the babies were moved, which was done accordingly, the witness having subsequently put on his gloves to begin the on-site inspection"


Vitor Martins -  


Inside the room that was indicated as being that of the missing girl there were two children, babies who appeared to be sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room."


Surely all the above police officers could not be mistaken when they claimed to have seen the McCann children asleep in cots in 5A on the night of the disappearance? Although their interviews were not immediate after the disappearance, I presume the ubiquitous "policeman's little black notebook" is pressed into use in Portugal too and that reports are typed up, based on information recorded at the scene, in a timely manner. Police under questioning do not tend to rely on memories of events but refer to notes taken contemporaneously and subsequently filed. Therefore the passage of time should not impact the accuracy of their evidence. Imagine police trying to testify at trials (often years after a crime) by merely casting their minds back to the events in question!

I wonder if it's possible to relocate a baby, sleeping in a cot, from one apartment to another ? 
If possible (ie fits through doors, down stairs), surely possible for 2 fit men

Surely the PJ would need a set of finger prints from the parents to eliminate theirs from any left by a potential "kidnapper". They knew Kate McCanns finger prints were on the shutter, so they must have had a set to match them.

Yet another attempt by her to besmirch the people looking for her child. Shameful

The Truth of the Lie by Goncalo Amaral - Chapter 2

THE REPORTS LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED

The examination of the premises by the investigator and the representative of the forensic police just after the announcement of the disappearance turns out to be quite unproductive. A concise report, where their observations are written up, is accompanied by numerous photographs taken inside and outside apartment 5A – which don’t give an account of, according to us, everything they could have observed. This error is explained by the absence of procedures in case of a child’s disappearance, notably concerning the actions to be taken when examining the scene.

Lots of people were already in place; however, nobody appeared in the photos. We don’t know, for example, how they were dressed. Such observations can turn out to be important later on. The report mentions that the twins were asleep in their bed, but there is no proof to confirm it; on the contrary, in the photographs, you can see empty cots, where only the mattresses remain – the sheets and blankets having been removed. Why have their beds been stripped? If the sheets had not been removed, traces of their presence could have been found there.

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At the risk of being battered on social media for criticizing Goncalo Amaral, it needs to be said that he was in charge of the investigation and the buck stops there.

 I want to add that I believe he was crapped on from a great height by his own establishment.

I disagree Aquila, his buck was stopped before he got as far as he would have liked

polyenne wrote:I disagree Aquila, his buck was stopped before he got as far as he would have liked

Well there was a Buck involved, a British diplomat but the buck sure didn't stop at that particular Buck.

I'm venturing into Devil's Advocate territory (a scary place on the internet) but let me say that I support Goncalo Amaral and I find the way he was treated by the UK media and its manipulators completely abhorrent to anything akin to humanity or the search for a little three year old girl.

This man was hung out to dry. He was abused and denigrated by the UK media and his own establishment let that happen.

Totally agree Aquila.

And that Buck, just like many of the MW employees, was swiftly moved on and out of the way soon after Abduction Day

polyenne wrote:I disagree Aquila, his buck was stopped before he got as far as he would have liked

Hi Polyenne,with an awful lot of assistance from John Buck,Justine,Clarence,Tony and chums clearly Not wanting to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann?
Kate,Gerry and the Tapas 7/9 all seemingly Good close friends couldnt be ars*ed to go back to Portugal and re-enact where they said they were on 3 May 2007 the reported night of the disappearance,to the Portugal PJ,but had persuaded the BBC,David Cameron(fragrant Rebekah) and Richard Bilton to produce in depth analysis as to what may have happened to Madeleine,along with Dave Edgars masterpiece,starring Gerry,Jez and Jane,"To me to you,this side of the road,no the other",until Jane showed tears in an Emotional moment,was this the Truth emerging from the deceitful tales of woe,spouted by close friends,Clarence?
So taken at a glance,Millions of Pounds in production costs£15 million on Operation Grange and still No Suspects,eh Mark Rowley,"The Usual suspects"Governer oh I don't know ask Nichola,"I nick erm before they know there nicked,but not in this case eh Nichola?

Phoebe wrote:
.... I presume the ubiquitous "policeman's little black notebook" is pressed into use in Portugal too and that reports are typed up, based on information recorded at the scene, in a timely manner....

The passages quoted are taken from witness statements, not service documents - there is a difference.

For example, the service document dated 4th May 2007, as reported by Inspector Vitor Martins, makes no reference to the sleeping babies in the room allegedly occupied by Madeleine.  He does however mention it during his witness statement.

Such an important factor I would expect to be included in the service document, not a witness statement.  That aside, I get the impression that the GNR witness interviews were more directed towards the presence of Robert Murat at the crime scene, rather than the crime scene itself.

I'm not pointing fingers as regards the efficiency of the GNR and PJ because the crime scene was already compromised before they arrived.  Remembering this is apartment 5a Ocean Club Praia da Luz under the radar - not Windsor Castle.  Kate McCann searched the apartment;  after being alerted members of their group of friends searched the apartment;  then Ocean Club employees searched the apartment;  on arrival elements of the GNR searched the apartment;  on arrival elements of the PJ searched the apartment. ??? 

Point number one - how many people does it take to search a small holiday apartment looking for a three year old child?  Point number two - this whole exercise was coordinated by employee Silvia Batista, no doubt because she could act as an interpreter between the English and the Portuguese.

Silvia Batista witness statement dated 7th May 2007..

She also recalls entering in the room where Madeleine should be sleeping and remembers now that the door was closed. The room was dark. The blinds were down, some light entering through their holes. The windows were closed and the curtains slightly open. Gerry, who followed her and the elements of the GNR, said he did close the window because of the babies sleeping in the room, a fact she confirms.


Gerry said that when he discovered the disappearance of Madeleine he noticed that the window and the blinds were open and the curtains fluttering.
She recalls that the beds which were in the middle of the room and used by the babies were aligned and therefore found it strange that someone had taken Madeleine from the bed where she would be sleeping and had gone to the window because there was no space to pass. She opened the wardrobes of that room in order to confirm that Madeleine wasn't eventually hiding there.


So they where groping about searching and whatever else in the pitch dark?

The main contact between the GNR officers and the PJ officers and the McCann group, was through the medium of the Ocean Club employee, Silvia Batista.  Rule number one, something every level headed living mortal understands - never contaminate a crime scene yet here we have every tom dick and harry tramping around the crime scene, all apparently searching for Madeleine.  Even Silvia Baptista, head of operations, claims to have searched the apartment.

I still can't understand while all this activity was going on, the twins would be left in a dark room with people going in and out willynilly.  My gut instinct is for mother, or concerned person if mother/father are prostrated by distress, would be to immediately move the twins to another apartment to be looked after by one of their friends.  

Something here just doesn't add up.

I think what we're doing is applying what we know now to what was known then......and at that point in time, what was known then was simply that a little girl was missing. They can't have known what a tangled web of deceit was to follow.

Of course, those in the know, were happy for the "crime scene" to be trampled on................

If the police claims re the twins still being in 5A are correct one could be forgiven for believing the unfortunate children were used as props to lend credence to the parent's story. Normal people would have had the twins removed to a place of quiet and safety at once, even if Madeleine had only wandered off and was to be found over the next few hours. It seems staged. "Look officers! All our children were peacefully sleeping when a big bad abductor came in and took one". Did it not occur to Gerry when closing the windows out of concern for the twins due to the draught that it would be wiser to move the children from the noise and chaos rather than tamper with evidence? They were staging the scene, unfortunate "props" included.

To stage such a scenario would be sheer folly - the only thing it would achieve would be to make the PJ think the twins had been drugged.   BINGO!

The story about the twins sleeping through all the chaos I believe was designed to make the PJ think just that - they had been drugged by the phantom abductor, the same as they made some vapid claim that Madeleine could have been drugged to facilitate her abduction.  Whether the twins were in apartment 5a on the night of 3rd/4th May is immaterial in this respect - the implication that they had been drugged is the key factor. 

I don't believe the twins were drugged to make them sleep any more than I believe Madeleine was drugged by an abductor - whether or not Madeleine was drugged for another reason is a different matter altogether, without evidence who can say. 

Somehow I think little Madeleine was disposed of in such a manner that the evidence will never be forthcoming.  Certainly the McCanns seem to be very confident that this will never happen.