The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

plebgate wrote:As dottyaussie asked where is the statement in the files from Mrs. Fenn's niece Carol given on 8th May, 2007 ?

We all know that not everything has been released or do you definitely know that there is nothing in the withheld files about these statements?

plebgates wrote:Shouldn't that be in your opinion or can you show clear evidene that what you say is correct?

HiDeHo wrote:The translator was likely Gaynor de Jesus who apparently translated for the police and Sky news?

Apparently David Pilditch had 'indirect conversations' with the police via the two journalists.  If he needed more information on something they could sometimes relay the answer.

Other info was discovered by talking to people to get an idea of the lines of inquiry that the police were following/asking confirmed by several people.

I see nothing to suggest he was finding this info (August 17th etc) from what is suggested was spread by TM.

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:As dottyaussie asked where is the statement in the files from Mrs. Fenn's niece Carol given on 8th May, 2007 ?

We all know that not everything has been released or do you definitely know that there is nothing in the withheld files about these statements?

Do you know that there is??? Seems to me they couldn't even identify the officer from Reading who took the statement!! If they couldn't find the officer it stands to reason they couldn't find the statement!!

@dottyaussie wrote:@ Verdi

DC1485'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.


Also

During the interview, Carole TRANMER provided the following evidence:
CT/10 ' Outline of Ocean Club apartment block 
CT/11 ' Outline of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz
CT/12 ' A photograph taken from the terrace of apartment 5G on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007
At 11h10 of this same day I collected three pieces of evidence from Carole Tranmer. This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my belief and understanding. 


As I was asking before where is this first statement and evidence CT/10, 11 and 12 ?

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:As dottyaussie asked where is the statement in the files from Mrs. Fenn's niece Carol given on 8th May, 2007 ?

We all know that not everything has been released or do you definitely know that there is nothing in the withheld files about these statements?

Do you know that there is??? Seems to me they couldn't even identify the officer from Reading who took the phantom statement!! If they couldn't find the officer it stands to reason they couldn't find the statement!!

Verdi wrote:Reverting to my recent comment about the authenticity of Carole Tranmer's alleged unseen statement taken by an unnamed police officer in May 2007 and the subsequent alleged visit by someone said to be from Reading, Mrs Tranmer's rogatory interview continues thus..

DC1485'What did he do'

CT'He, well, he assigned a document to confirm that I was correct but it was all on computer and'humm'he took it back to Reading.

DC1485'He was from Reading'

CT'He worked for the Reading Police, so I assumed he was legitimate.

DC1485'Did he leave a card or another contact'

CT'Humm...

DC1485'Is the name recognisable'

CT'No, but it was all noted by the Police in Reading.

DC1485'Where did they go'

CT'They, they went to my office.

DC1485'They went to your office'

CT'Yes.

DC1485'How many of them were there'

CT'Only one, with a laptop.

DC1485'I am not suggesting that he, he'

CT'I was going to say that, I hope he was legitimate, this was a long time ago.

DC1485'Yes, I am not suggesting this, simply, I want you to help me find him.

CT'I, I do not remember his name, humm.

DC1485'You told me that he was young'

CT'Yes, a young person.

DC1485'He was in his youth'

CT'Well, a computer genious, but not one of those weird looking ones, you know'hum, very much younger'humm, he was around 25 or something.

Dc1485'Okay.

CT'Dark hair, hum'short, yes, I remember that he was very short, humm'and was only'

DC1485'You have a fantastic memory, did you know that'

CT' (laughs) Perhaps this has something to do with my past, because I was working, hummm'my other organisation was, hummm'called Reading because it was all organized by them.

DC1485'Good, I will ask you to contact us first, unless you have a preference'

CT'I can check in my agenda when I get home.

DC1485'And call me after or'

DC1485'I keep all my appointments and if there is anything, because when I was working, I was better organised compared to when I do nothing.

DC1485'Okay.

CT'Perhaps there is something about his name.

DC1485'Because he must have said his name and the visit and you may have made a note in your agenda.

CT'I would have noted it as I had to also book the room.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'I remember this, yes....
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

According to this interview, there should have been a follow-up communication which I don't think has ever been revealed.

It would appear from this interview that the visit from Reading for Carol Tranmer to help with an identi-kit was unconfirmed.  Could that also be the situation with the statement said to have been taken on 8th May 2007?  Is this the reason why Carol Tranmer was interviewed by rogatory?

I hope this is clear.  I've tried to cut out anything that doesn't directly address my point but the interview is not very clear.

Verdi wrote:

pennylane wrote:The PJ must have had bi-lingual detective/s to hand from the onset, or nothing would have gotten off the ground surely.

Possible of course but I think highly unlikely.  Think if the same situation arose in the UK and it was a Portuguese national who lost a child.  I doubt if Leicester police (for example) would have a bi-lingual English/Portuguese officer on duty.

It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all....

A lady called Sílvia, who worked at the Ocean Club, had arrived to help out with translation. We learned later that she was the maintenance and services manager. I remember her telling methat she had two grown-up daughters herself. She was very kind and I was glad of her help and support.

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

It should be noted that this is the same Silvia Baptista who allegedly advised the McCanns to use the Ocean Club night child care service.

plebgate wrote:

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:As dottyaussie asked where is the statement in the files from Mrs. Fenn's niece Carol given on 8th May, 2007 ?

We all know that not everything has been released or do you definitely know that there is nothing in the withheld files about these statements?

Do you know that there is??? Seems to me they couldn't even identify the officer from Reading who took the statement!! If they couldn't find the officer it stands to reason they couldn't find the statement!!

Maybe this will help

snipped from dottyaussies post further up thread:

@dottyaussie wrote:@ Verdi

DC1485'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.


Also

During the interview, Carole TRANMER provided the following evidence:
CT/10 ' Outline of Ocean Club apartment block 
CT/11 ' Outline of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz
CT/12 ' A photograph taken from the terrace of apartment 5G on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007
At 11h10 of this same day I collected three pieces of evidence from Carole Tranmer. This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my belief and understanding. 


As I was asking before where is this first statement and evidence CT/10, 11 and 12 ?

Maybe if you read the thread before posting things will become clearer.

I do not intend responding to you again as it seems to me that you are still a bit peeved about the substitute child theory I posted about (imo of course).

I may have missed it and pardon me if I have but has Verdi replied to dottyaussie's question?

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:

pennylane wrote:The PJ must have had bi-lingual detective/s to hand from the onset, or nothing would have gotten off the ground surely.

Possible of course but I think highly unlikely.  Think if the same situation arose in the UK and it was a Portuguese national who lost a child.  I doubt if Leicester police (for example) would have a bi-lingual English/Portuguese officer on duty.

It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all....

A lady called Sílvia, who worked at the Ocean Club, had arrived to help out with translation. We learned later that she was the maintenance and services manager. I remember her telling methat she had two grown-up daughters herself. She was very kind and I was glad of her help and support.

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

It should be noted that this is the same Silvia Baptista who allegedly advised the McCanns to use the Ocean Club night child care service.

If something is possible then it cannot be ruled out.  

To even think that police would turn up at a serious crime scene without translators or police officers who could speak English cannot be taken seriously I would suggest.

Edited to add:  you have quoted the above from madeleine by KATE MCCANN  and we all know what you think of anything KATE MCCANN has to say verdi.

whodunit wrote:

Verdi wrote:Reverting to my recent comment about the authenticity of Carole Tranmer's alleged unseen statement taken by an unnamed police officer in May 2007 and the subsequent alleged visit by someone said to be from Reading, Mrs Tranmer's rogatory interview continues thus..

DC1485'What did he do'

CT'He, well, he assigned a document to confirm that I was correct but it was all on computer and'humm'he took it back to Reading.

DC1485'He was from Reading'

CT'He worked for the Reading Police, so I assumed he was legitimate.

DC1485'Did he leave a card or another contact'

CT'Humm...

DC1485'Is the name recognisable'

CT'No, but it was all noted by the Police in Reading.

DC1485'Where did they go'

CT'They, they went to my office.

DC1485'They went to your office'

CT'Yes.

DC1485'How many of them were there'

CT'Only one, with a laptop.

DC1485'I am not suggesting that he, he'

CT'I was going to say that, I hope he was legitimate, this was a long time ago.

DC1485'Yes, I am not suggesting this, simply, I want you to help me find him.

CT'I, I do not remember his name, humm.

DC1485'You told me that he was young'

CT'Yes, a young person.

DC1485'He was in his youth'

CT'Well, a computer genious, but not one of those weird looking ones, you know'hum, very much younger'humm, he was around 25 or something.

Dc1485'Okay.

CT'Dark hair, hum'short, yes, I remember that he was very short, humm'and was only'

DC1485'You have a fantastic memory, did you know that'

CT' (laughs) Perhaps this has something to do with my past, because I was working, hummm'my other organisation was, hummm'called Reading because it was all organized by them.

DC1485'Good, I will ask you to contact us first, unless you have a preference'

CT'I can check in my agenda when I get home.

DC1485'And call me after or'

DC1485'I keep all my appointments and if there is anything, because when I was working, I was better organised compared to when I do nothing.

DC1485'Okay.

CT'Perhaps there is something about his name.

DC1485'Because he must have said his name and the visit and you may have made a note in your agenda.

CT'I would have noted it as I had to also book the room.

DC1485'Yes.

CT'I remember this, yes....
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

According to this interview, there should have been a follow-up communication which I don't think has ever been revealed.

It would appear from this interview that the visit from Reading for Carol Tranmer to help with an identi-kit was unconfirmed.  Could that also be the situation with the statement said to have been taken on 8th May 2007?  Is this the reason why Carol Tranmer was interviewed by rogatory?

I hope this is clear.  I've tried to cut out anything that doesn't directly address my point but the interview is not very clear.

Verdi wrote:

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:

pennylane wrote:The PJ must have had bi-lingual detective/s to hand from the onset, or nothing would have gotten off the ground surely.

Possible of course but I think highly unlikely.  Think if the same situation arose in the UK and it was a Portuguese national who lost a child.  I doubt if Leicester police (for example) would have a bi-lingual English/Portuguese officer on duty.

It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all....

A lady called Sílvia, who worked at the Ocean Club, had arrived to help out with translation. We learned later that she was the maintenance and services manager. I remember her telling methat she had two grown-up daughters herself. She was very kind and I was glad of her help and support.

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

It should be noted that this is the same Silvia Baptista who allegedly advised the McCanns to use the Ocean Club night child care service.

If something is possible then it cannot be ruled out.  

To even think that police would turn up at a serious crime scene without translators or police officers who could speak English cannot be taken seriously I would suggest.

Edited to add:  you have quoted the above from madeleine by KATE MCCANN  and we all know what you think of anything KATE MCCANN has to say verdi.

this is true!

whodunit wrote:

Verdi wrote:

HiDeHo wrote:The translator was likely Gaynor de Jesus who apparently translated for the police and Sky news?

Apparently David Pilditch had 'indirect conversations' with the police via the two journalists.  If he needed more information on something they could sometimes relay the answer.

Other info was discovered by talking to people to get an idea of the lines of inquiry that the police were following/asking confirmed by several people.

I see nothing to suggest he was finding this info (August 17th etc) from what is suggested was spread by TM.

Holy cow I just don't know man, I just don't know...

Verdi wrote:@plebgate wrote:  carol-tranmer did not deny having given a statement on 8th May 2007 did she in the above?


No, nor did she deny helping the mysterious man from Reading to produce an identi-kit. 



I get the impression that DC Messiah was far from convinced by the authenticity of this Reading man;  in the absence of documented evidence, the alleged statement of 8th May 2007 could also be questioned.

HiDeHo wrote:Mrs Fenn spoken to when the dogs were brought in....?

Are we supposed to believe and presume that because it is not documented that it didn't happen?

HiDeHo wrote:Apart from an overall disbelief of anything, I see nothing so far that indicates any proof that Mrs Fenn was coerced into saying anything by TM...

I see the files... I see what has been written in the media and it is all very logical under the circumstances...

For me to believe that Mrs Fenn was coerced by TM I would need proof...just as media reports to say she WAS spoken to by police are not considered proof... I would like facts to show that she was never spoken to by the police prior to her Aug 20th statement and that David Pilditch quotes from a friend are not true and are based on something started by TM...

Mrs Fenn deserves to be considered credible unless/until someone proved facts to disprove....

Mrs Fenn did not claim in her statement that Kate was  out of control and violent and THAT is what she appears to be claiming is rubbish...

plebgate wrote:

whodunit wrote:

plebgate wrote:As dottyaussie asked where is the statement in the files from Mrs. Fenn's niece Carol given on 8th May, 2007 ?

We all know that not everything has been released or do you definitely know that there is nothing in the withheld files about these statements?

Do you know that there is??? Seems to me they couldn't even identify the officer from Reading who took the statement!! If they couldn't find the officer it stands to reason they couldn't find the statement!!

Maybe this will help

snipped from dottyaussies post further up thread:

@dottyaussie wrote:@ Verdi

DC1485'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.


Also

During the interview, Carole TRANMER provided the following evidence:
CT/10 ' Outline of Ocean Club apartment block 
CT/11 ' Outline of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz
CT/12 ' A photograph taken from the terrace of apartment 5G on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007
At 11h10 of this same day I collected three pieces of evidence from Carole Tranmer. This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my belief and understanding. 


As I was asking before where is this first statement and evidence CT/10, 11 and 12 ?

Maybe if you read the thread before posting things will become clearer.

I do not intend responding to you again as it seems to me that you are still a bit peeved about the substitute child theory I posted about (imo of course).

I may have missed it and pardon me if I have but has Verdi replied to dottyaussie's question?

plebgate wrote:

HiDeHo wrote:Apart from an overall disbelief of anything, I see nothing so far that indicates any proof that Mrs Fenn was coerced into saying anything by TM...

I see the files... I see what has been written in the media and it is all very logical under the circumstances...

For me to believe that Mrs Fenn was coerced by TM I would need proof...just as media reports to say she WAS spoken to by police are not considered proof... I would like facts to show that she was never spoken to by the police prior to her Aug 20th statement and that David Pilditch quotes from a friend are not true and are based on something started by TM...

Mrs Fenn deserves to be considered credible unless/until someone proved facts to disprove....

Mrs Fenn did not claim in her statement that Kate was  out of control and violent and THAT is what she appears to be claiming is rubbish...

I agree but am not saying that I wouldn't change my view if evidence was produced showing that Mrs. Fenn was not genuine.

Verdi wrote:

plebgate wrote:

Verdi wrote:

aquila wrote:Most importantly, who made the decision to employ Robert Murat to translate for the PJ?

I wonder how much off the record translating he did.  Assuming the PJ did undertake a door to door initiative, I doubt very much at that stage they had a translator with them during the process.  It couldn't have been John Hill who allegedly called on Jeremy Wilkins with one of Gerry's mates because he was far too busy with other matters. 

Pamela Fenn said during her August 2007 formal interview that she didn't speak or understand the Portuguese language - another question mark over when she first spoke to the police about the crying incident.

@verdi  - I wasn't going to contribute again but as things seem to have moved on it seems to me that the PJ must have had a translator/s or they wouldn't have been able to speak to the Tapas crew so imo there is no question mark over when Mrs. Fenn first spoke to the police about the crying incident.  

As dottyausie has pointed out there is also on record a statement which says Mrs. Fenn's niece gave an interview on 8th May 2007.   Surely the niece would have been interviewed after Mrs. Fenn which again suggests to me that Mrs. Fenn was probably spoken to on 4th May 2007.

If you follow the sequence of events on the night of 3rd/4th May 2007 and the GNR/PJ's initial reaction to the situation, there wasn't any need for the police to speak directly to the McCanns or any of their friends.  The recorded details show a situation of total chaos, quite understandable under the circumstances, with just about everyone in the immediate vicinity offering assistance, including Portuguese Ocean Club staff.  As matters evolved the following day, then the Tapas group were required to give formal interviews conducted by the PJ - enter Robert Murat.

There is no indication that the information forthcoming on the night of 3rd/4th May was a strict account of events given by the Tapas group direct to the GNR/PJ.  I believe it was more likely an account of events as portrayed by a go-between.