Interesting watch

by notlongnow 21.05.15 14:42

Haven't seen this for ages so was interesting to see it again.

by Liz Eagles 21.05.15 16:57

It is interesting to watch Brunt's report. There are so many elements that can be discussed which I'm sure people will wish to do.

I'm just picking up on one thing in particular - Brunt's demonstration of the walk from the Tapas Bar to the apartment. It doesn't show him walking through the reception area (camera failure?) but he announces that it's 88 paces to the gate at the foot of the stairwell to apartment 5a. A simple calculation of that, taking the average length of a person's gait gives the distance as around 75 yards. The documentary doesn't show how many paces/what distance it is from the Tapas Bar to the front door entrance of the apartment which GM stated he used/later stated he didn't use. Brunt failed to demonstrate the walk to the front of the apartment where the window with the jemmied/unjemmied shutters was, where the window was open/not open, where the curtains tucked against the wall by a bed 'whooshed'. Brunt stuck only to the patio doors being left open. The McCanns stated they only left those patio doors open on the night Madeleine disappeared. This can be considered misleading imo.

The detective in the documentary who dealt with the Soham case made it clear that the thing to look for is evidence of ingress and egress. Brunt demonstrated in his walk from the Tapas Bar only one point of possible entry by the parents let alone anyone else. This Brunt walk did not demonstrate the previous evenings where the child checking was done through the front door which would have been a bigger distance.

It's shutters and dogs that simply cannot be explained.

The Soham case detective found the washing of cuddlecat bizarre.

by **PeterMac** 21.05.15 18:07

When I did it with PB, it took me 59 seconds from Tapas to side gate.
"Normal walk" neither hurrying nor dawdling, I am 6'1" so my pace is probably the same as Gerry's hurrying to see his children.
It then took a further 60 seconds to walk up the hill, round the corner, through the car park, and along the path behind the wall past the shuttered window to the front door.
We did it several times.
1 minute, or 2 minutes, depending which door you wish to use.

(But that did not allow for climbing the steps onto the terrace, for which add perhaps 15 seconds)

by Liz Eagles 21.05.15 18:24

PeterMac wrote:When I did it with PB, it took me 59 seconds from Tapas to side gate.
"Normal walk" neither hurrying nor dawdling, I am 6'1" so my pace is probably the same as Gerry's hurrying to see his children.
It then took a further 60 seconds to walk up the hill, round the corner, through the car park, and along the path behind the wall past the shuttered window to the front door.
We did it several times.
1 minute, or 2 minutes, depending which door you wish to use.

(But that did not allow for climbing the steps onto the terrace, for which add perhaps 15 seconds)

Interesting.

by **PeterMac** 21.05.15 21:57

aquila wrote:
PeterMac wrote:When I did it with PB, it took me 59 seconds from Tapas to side gate.
"Normal walk" neither hurrying nor dawdling, I am 6'1" so my pace is probably the same as Gerry's hurrying to see his children.
It then took a further 60 seconds to walk up the hill, round the corner, through the car park, and along the path behind the wall past the shuttered window to the front door.
We did it several times.
1 minute, or 2 minutes, depending which door you wish to use.

(But that did not allow for climbing the steps onto the terrace, for which add perhaps 15 seconds)
Interesting.

It was very revealing, and demonstrated the importance of an SIO visiting the scene. AFTER all the forensics have been done obviously
I also walked across the top of the road several times, with PB in different positions, filming, and counted the paces, timed the seconds in which I was visible, and so on
Which led to the article about the total impossibility of the Tanner sighting being real.
Grange picked that up about 4 years later, and came to the same conclusion.

It then lead to the piece about the Tanner "Window of opportunity " to enter, sedate three children, select one, pick her up, turn her round, exit and cross the car park,
being LESS THAN ONE MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS.
It was total rubbish from day ONE.
Which Dr Amaral realised, on day ONE.

by Liz Eagles 21.05.15 22:05

PeterMac wrote:
aquila wrote:
PeterMac wrote:When I did it with PB, it took me 59 seconds from Tapas to side gate.
"Normal walk" neither hurrying nor dawdling, I am 6'1" so my pace is probably the same as Gerry's hurrying to see his children.
It then took a further 60 seconds to walk up the hill, round the corner, through the car park, and along the path behind the wall past the shuttered window to the front door.
We did it several times.
1 minute, or 2 minutes, depending which door you wish to use.

(But that did not allow for climbing the steps onto the terrace, for which add perhaps 15 seconds)
Interesting.

It was very revealing, and demonstrated the importance of an SIO visiting the scene. AFTER all the forensics have been done obviously
I also walked across the top of the road several times, with PB in different positions, filming, and counted the paces, timed the seconds in which I was visible, and so on
Which led to the article about the total impossibility of the Tanner sighting being real.
Grange picked that up about 4 years later, and came to the same conclusion.

It then lead to the piece about the Tanner "Window of opportunity " to enter, sedate three children, select one, pick her up, turn her round, exit and cross the car park,
being LESS THAN ONE MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS.
It was total rubbish from day ONE.
Which Dr Amaral realised, on day ONE.

For a police officer, especially an SIO such as yourself or GA it's the bleeding obvious.

by j.rob 26.05.15 15:40

The poolside reception entrance to the part of the Ocean Club that the McCanns used on their Mark Warner holiday is on Rua Dr Gentil Martins. Which is also the road that the path leading to the rear entrance of the apartment comes out on - quite a few yards down from the poolside entrance it would seem.

You can find it on google earth or similar. The main 24 hour reception of Ocean Club is on a different road quite a bit further away called Rua Direita.

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by j.rob 27.05.15 14:47

A few little pics for your afternoon entertainment folks!

I had always been confused about the layout of the club and the location of apartment 5A in relation to other areas. However google earth and similar are wonderful inventions and make things much clearer to understand.

Link below shows side view of McCann apartment 5A showing a gate at the side of the apartment which opens onto a flight of steps leading to a veranda at the rear of the apartment. At the top of the steps there was a child safety gate.

From the veranda glass sliding patio doors -with the famous shutters (!) lead into the apartment sitting room area.

It was by this route that the McCanns apparently left the apartment to go to the tapas restaurant in the evening and also returned back to the apartment when checking on their children, or so they say.

According to Kate it would have been impossible for Madeleine to have left the apartment by this route of her own accord - due to the shutters, a safety gate and then another gate - and Detective Amaral's suggestion that Madeleine could have wandered off on her own had been "insulting" to her and Gerry's intelligence.

Below also shows the path which runs along the backs of the other apartments in blocks 5 and 4 and which gives access to the rear entrances of the other (ground floor only I presume?) gardens and apartments.

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Below shows the distance between the pathway at the back of the apartment where the McCanns were staying and - if you click on the arrow to the left - the poolside entrance that the McCanns used to get to and from their apartment into this part of the Ocean Club resort. In which was found the Tapas bar, adult and children's swimming pools and also the mini club creche used by Sean and Amelie which was adjacent to the bar and Tapas restaurant.

Kate describes the Tapas restaurant in her book as "open air" but at night an opaque plastic canopy is placed over the outside area so the parents could not have seen across to their apartment where the children were sleeping.

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Below shows the entrance to the car park at the front of the McCann's apartment, 5A, in block 5. The front entrance is on Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva. Jane Tanner claims she saw Madeleine's abductor scurrying up the road from the rear of the apartments (Rua Dr Gentil Martins) and crossing over this road at the top while he made his getaway on foot.

Click on the left hand arrow to see the distance between the front of the McCann apartment and the rear of the McCann apartment as well as the distance from the front of 5A to the poolside entrance to the Ocean Club Tapas bar and pool area.

Note the placard at the junction of the road on the boundary wall of the apartment block which states that the Ocean Club 24 Hour Reception is at a distance of 400 metres. Much, much further away than the nearby poolside entrance area used by the McCann to gain access to OC.

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Below is the main 24 hour reception area to Luz Ocean Club Gardens. Click on the arrow to the right and you can also see that this is also the main 24 hour reception to the Palm Bay part of Ocean Club.

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Map showing lay-out of Luz Ocean Club:

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by **PeterMac** 27.05.15 15:13

aquila wrote:
For a police officer, especially an SIO such as yourself or GA it's the bleeding obvious.

It was also bleeding obvious to Sky and their reporoter on the scene during the "reconstruction" that Tanner was a liar.
Or as he delicately puts it ". . . No way . . ."
watch at 0;53

by j.rob 27.05.15 15:49

I note that Kate in her book claims that she was freezing while dining at the tapas restaurant. And she had to wear five layers of clothes to keep warm.

But surely if the outside area of the Tapas restaurant was covered on chilly evenings (as it definitely was that fateful week) then it would have been much warmer as it was quite a small area with tables close together and was always full every night? Kate being a little less than truthful again, methinks.

I notice that Kate claims that the one night they went to the adjoining bar after dinner (Wednesday) and therefore left 45 minutes between 'checks' she was relieved to get into the bar area as it was enclosed and therefore warmer.

This is disingenuous at least (in true Kate form) as it creates a false impression that the Tapas restaurant was not enclosed. When, as the photo in the link below clearly shows, the tapas restaurant was covered by a plastic opaque sheet in the evenings which I would have thought would have kept the place quite warm and steamy once all those adults were eating and drinking.

In any event, if the Tapas restaurant had been uncomfortably cold every evening to the extent that people had to wear multiple layers of clothes, why would it have been so popular?

Notice how in the photos from the News of the World 'reconstruction' shown in the link below there is no child safety gate shown at the top of the patio stairs leading from the veranda at the rear of apartment 5A to the rear entrance gate of 5A. Why get something so basic so wrong? The caption even states 'unblocked' entrance to rear stairs? If it was that easy for an abductor to get in, why would it not also have been easy for Madeleine to get out?

Looking at later photos, I can see there is one taken after the police had sealed off the apartment as a crime scene and a child safety gate is clearly shown. Then another photo next to it without the gate, saying it was later removed.

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Snipped from News of the World story linked above:

The McCanns and their friends, the 'Tapas 7', were seated in the canopy structure known as the Tapas restaurant, behind plastic sheeting.

It is very difficult to imagine that any of the group could have seen anything of the apartments, given it was night-time and the lights inside the restaurant would have naturally reflected on the clear sheeting.

Being seated at a round/oval table means that some members of the group were seated with their backs to the apartments (including Kate and Gerry according to Gonçalo Amaral) and, in themselves, providing a further barrier to vision for those seated opposite.

In addition, by being enclosed, and with the general noise and chatter inside the restaurant, it is very hard to imagine that the screams or cries for help from a distressed baby, or small tot, left alone in the apartment, would ever be heard.

The above is an interesting observation, imo. Leaving no doubt whatsoever that TM were dining out of ear-shot and out of eye-sight of their children. And would not have been able to hear them crying out for help.

Mrs Fenn's account of an hour and a quarter of distressed crying coming from the apartment one evening (Tuesday apparently) may or may not be true or accurate. But then again it might be. Whether it was Madeleine crying out in distress or-if something bad had already happened to Madeleine - Kate crying out 'Maddie' or even one of the twins crying out 'Maddie'. The apartments are quite large with a fair bit of space around them - quiet road behind and a quiet path then walls and gardens in front, so it is perfectly possible that there could have been distressed crying coming from apartment 5A that week without other people hearing.

And given that it was low season and the resort was not full, it may be that most of the other apartments in block G5 were empty. I think it is reported that Mrs Fenn was one of the few - if only - permanent residents of the G5. With other apartments being holiday homes or holiday rentals.

I know there are posters who have analyzed the guest lists. But many/most of the other guests seem to be in other apartment blocks within OC and not G5? That is my impression.

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by Guest 27.05.15 15:53

PeterMac wrote:
aquila wrote:
For a police officer, especially an SIO such as yourself or GA it's the bleeding obvious.

It was also bleeding obvious to Sky and their reporoter on the scene during the "reconstruction" that Tanner was a liar.
Or as he delicately puts it ". . . No way . . ."
watch at 0;53

That's amazing.

The reporter also rubbishes the burglary claims.

Holmes is a disgrace here by the way.

by willowthewisp 27.05.15 16:14

Hi Petermac
2nd attempt at posting, I looked at the pictures of apartment 5a Ocean club, the Abductor was certainly taking a risk exiting through that window, that appears to be about 5-6 ft above street level and must have had a long pinch bar to jemmy the shutters open?
Must have been related to HH?

by j.rob 27.05.15 16:33

PeterMac wrote:
aquila wrote:
For a police officer, especially an SIO such as yourself or GA it's the bleeding obvious.

It was also bleeding obvious to Sky and their reporoter on the scene during the "reconstruction" that Tanner was a liar.
Or as he delicately puts it ". . . No way . . ."
watch at 0;53

What route is this? Is this the Smith-man route? Or another one? I wonder what road this is?

I notice from the Crimewatch 'reconstruction' which I think was October 2013 that the McCanns and their friends are shown as dining at a table outside. As far as I can see from the rather dark footage purportedly showing how they were dining that evening, there is no plastic covering or awning around or above them in the Tapas restaurant. The impression is that they are dining 'al fresco' with a view of the pool, gardens and apartment block behind. So this is a false impression.

If the opaque plastic covering was over the outside eating area of the Tapas restaurant, then the McCanns and their friends did NOT have an unrestricted view of the surroundings outside the restaurant.

Therefore, if the observation above is correct, the 'reconstruction' is deliberately misleading - grossly so, imo.

----

Can't help sniggering over this. I had never seen this before. A porn actor apparently played the part of Matthew Oldfield in the Crimewatch 'reconstruction'. An oversight on the part of the BBC? Or were they experimenting with type-casting perhaps? eek

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by Doug D 27.05.15 17:02

Willowthewisp.

That is the lounge window under which the settee sat.

KM’s ‘whooshing curtain’, ‘jemmied shutter’ window is round the front at normal height. There is a video of Petermac playing with the shutters around somewhere.

P.S.
What abductor and what evidence of ‘jemmying’ are you talking about?

eta:

by **PeterMac** 27.05.15 17:12

willowthewisp wrote:Hi Petermac
2nd attempt at posting, I looked at the pictures of apartment 5a Ocean club, the Abductor was certainly taking a risk exiting through that window, that appears to be about 5-6 ft above street level and must have had a long pinch bar to jemmy the shutters open?
Must have been related to HH?

Wrong window.

by willowthewisp 27.05.15 17:32

Hi Petermac,
I have just seen the window in the video, the two windows at the side of the apartment are what I was referring to, which side of the property was the window in the video, as I have not seen the one you refer to, taken from the road. Sorry if I have made a mistake but was using the pictures from a posting from the forum.

by Gaggzy 27.05.15 18:15

BlueBag wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
aquila wrote:
For a police officer, especially an SIO such as yourself or GA it's the bleeding obvious.

It was also bleeding obvious to Sky and their reporoter on the scene during the "reconstruction" that Tanner was a liar.
Or as he delicately puts it ". . . No way . . ."
watch at 0;53

That's amazing.

The reporter also rubbishes the burglary claims.

Holmes is a disgrace here by the way.

I agree. He is obviously another one who thinks opportunist burglars always ignore cameras, jewellery, money, passports, etc, and steal little 4-year-old girls.

by j.rob 27.05.15 20:11

Oh dear, oh dear. Never read this in full before. What a crock of ****.....

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The location of the cots seems to be a bit of a hot potato.

Hmmmm......

IMO the Tapas males have a lot to answer for. They make my flesh creep.

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by **PeterMac** 27.05.15 22:01

willowthewisp wrote:Hi Petermac,
I have just seen the window in the video, the two windows at the side of the apartment are what I was referring to, which side of the property was the window in the video, as I have not seen the one you refer to, taken from the road. Sorry if I have made a mistake but was using the pictures from a posting from the forum.

Posted YET AGAIN, for all those Pro- Abduction theorists who insist that this is a strong possibility.. .
It is NOT
It is an absolutely impossibility, As Dr Amaral realised within minutes of arriving at PdL..
Before he had heard the ludicrous story from Tanner, and the mendacious stories from the Tapas7 and the Mccanns
It was, and is and always will be ludicrous. But it is the foundation of the McCanns'' mendacious and fraudulent claim . . .
and the basis and foundation for their fraudulent "Fund"

EVEN Redwood dismissed it. (Which is saying something !)

by willowthewisp 28.05.15 14:22

Petermac,
I was making reference to statements made by the Tapas group of conversations they shared with members/relatives of the missing girl Madeleine McCann, the Jemmied shutters and their spoken words in this case.
I have not said that the girl Madeleine McCann had been abducted, this is what has been alluded to and being investigated by Operation Grange and that remit alone?
What ever the Metropolitan Police are investigating is down to them and the Portugal PJ who will determine any future outcomes of this case.

by j.rob 28.05.15 18:25

PeterMac wrote:
aquila wrote:
For a police officer, especially an SIO such as yourself or GA it's the bleeding obvious.

It was also bleeding obvious to Sky and their reporoter on the scene during the "reconstruction" that Tanner was a liar.
Or as he delicately puts it ". . . No way . . ."
watch at 0;53

What an interesting interview! This Luz local who is editor of an English newspaper (so would have very many local contacts and be privy to information) completely rubbishes Jane Tanner's claim and says he is very glad that it's been knocked out (following the Crimewatch programme).

Intriguingly the newspaper editor says that just up the road to the right from where he is standing there was a security camera 'that police never found at the time'.

I think this is where he is standing in the link below. On the junction of Rua da Escola Primara (which of course is the road where Smithman was allegedly seen and Rua 25 de Abril (which is where a large Chinese restaurant and takeaway called Royal Garden is - you can just make out the sign in red just down the road on the left).

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The editor says that he walked down the street he is now on with Detective Amaral two years ago. Detective Amaral walked him down the street "exactly past this corner" and "down there" (along Rua 25 de Abril I think he means) and he says that Amaral is convinced that "whoever carried the child - which the camera unfortunately missed - walked right past this corner".

He does not name the child as 'Madeleine McCann'. But simply 'the child'.

But the gist of what he is saying seems to be that Crimewatch's Smithman takes the same route that Detective Amaral is convinced was taken by "whoever carried the child".

Of course this begs the million dollar question: who does Detective Amaral think that Smithman is? And who does he think that the child that Smithman was carrying is??

The map below shows the locations of the restaurants and bars in Luz including Kelly's bar which the Smith family say they were walking back from when they passed Smithman on their way back to their apartment. (I wonder where their apartment is in Luz and who hey co-own it with?)

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This is another interesting interview with this Luz newspaper editor. This time the reporter is standing in a different place in Luz. And once again he says it is the route that Detective Amaral believes that the man carrying the child took. Think it is the junction shown on the link below.

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by j.rob 28.05.15 19:16

Another view of this junction where apparently Detective Amaral is convinced that the man carrying the child passed.

On the near side of the junction is Luz doctors. Straight on down the road if you pass the Chinese restaurant and keep going is the church in Luz.

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The cctv camera that the Luz newspaper editor in the clip uplink says that Detective Amaral is furious that wasn't checked as he believes it could have captured the man carrying the child. This is the junction between the road that leads to the front of OC apartment 5A and the road that leads down to Rua da Escola Primaria where the Smith family claim they saw a man carrying a child.

I had no idea that Detective Amaral considered this route to be so significant.

But WHAT man and WHICH child??? huh

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by j.rob 29.05.15 18:47

WW

Interesting to compare the Smithman and Tannerman routes, irrespective of whether one the other or indeed both are complete fabrications.

Jane Tanner's Tannerman - almost certainly an impossible invention - scurrying up the road at the front of apartment 5A, or so Jane Tanner says, continuing up crossing the junction with Rua Dr Gentil Martins (the road at the back of apartment 5A) - and then carrying on up Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva travelling from left to route as shown by green arrow - is the opposite direction to the Smithman route.

Smithman - whether he exists or not - would have gone along Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva away from apartment 5A in the opposite direction, turning left onto Rua Primeiro de Maio and then soon turning off along several short roads before turning into Rua da Escola Primaria which is, of course, where the Smith family are supposed to have made the sighting.

Tannerman route:

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Smithman route:
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More o

More on Smithman sighting and routes:

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Local map showing roads and locations of restaurants and bars:

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by willowthewisp 31.05.15 11:01

jrob,
Thank you for the pictures of the whereabouts the night creche is situated,it would seem to cast elements of doubt of DCI Andy Redwoods theory of a father taking his child home?
The parent carrying the child would have had to walk up past the apartment 5a Ocean club and then turned right at the junction where JT stated she had seen this person at 21.15 hrs?
The smith family from Ireland gave a description of a man carrying a child that was much further away from the apartment at 22.00pm 3 May 2007, If this was the same person he must have got lost trying to find his way back home spending at least 45 minutes walking around on a Chilly night?

by j.rob 31.05.15 22:33

willowthewisp wrote:jrob,
Thank you for the pictures of the whereabouts the night creche is situated,it would seem to cast elements of doubt of DCI Andy Redwoods theory of a father taking his child home?
The parent carrying the child would have had to walk up past the apartment 5a Ocean club and then turned right at the junction where JT stated she had seen this person at 21.15 hrs?
The smith family from Ireland gave a description of a man carrying a child that was much further away from the apartment at 22.00pm 3 May 2007, If this was the same person he must have got lost trying to find his way back home spending at least 45 minutes walking around on a Chilly night?

Indeed.

It makes Kate's claim that Tannerman and Smithman are one and the same person absurd.

Not quite sure what Redwood's crecheman theory was - was he suggesting that crecheman was Tannerman AND Smithman?

Which, again, would be rather silly.

But this whole case is LUDICROUS as GM might say.

But not funny because it involves the untimely demise of an innocent child.

And NO Kate, Gerry and your hideous family and friends Madeleine was NOT abducted by a random person, IMO!

Unfortunately, this claim has been made/is made when parents/friends want to cover up what really happened to a child. I see nothing in this case that makes it any different to this scenario. Nothing at all. And the fact that the group are comprised of doctors and other professionals is completely irrelevant. Well, actually, it IS relevant because they were arrogant enough to think that they would be above suspicion.

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic the lot of them.