Media ‘gagged over bid to report MP child sex cases’

by roy rovers 22.11.14 16:41

Media ‘gagged over bid to report MP child sex cases’
Security services accused of aiding Westminster paedophilia cover-up

Daniel Boffey policy editor
The Observer, Saturday 22 November 2014 11.33 GMT

Media ‘gagged over bid to report MP child sex cases’ 6646c31d-4b0a-434e-8c27-c18aca595a32-460x276

Barbara Castle, the former Labour minister, tried to alert newspapers to the case. Photograph: Chris Barham/Rex
The security services are facing questions over the cover-up of a Westminster paedophile ring as it emerged that files relating to official requests for media blackouts in the early 1980s were destroyed.
Two newspaper executives have told the Observer that their publications were issued with D-notices – warnings not to publish intelligence that might damage national security – when they sought to report on allegations of a powerful group of men engaging in child sex abuse in 1984. One executive said he had been accosted in his office by 15 uniformed and two non-uniformed police over a dossier on Westminster paedophiles passed to him by the former Labour cabinet minister Barbara Castle.
The other said that his newspaper had received a D-notice when a reporter sought to write about a police investigation into Elm Guest House, in southwest London, where a group of high-profile paedophiles was said to have operated and may have killed a child. Now it has emerged that these claims are impossible to verify or discount because the D-notice archives for that period “are not complete”.
Officials running the D-notice system, which works closely with MI5 and MI6 and the Ministry of Defence, said that files “going back beyond 20 years are not complete because files are reviewed and correspondence of a routine nature with no historical significance destroyed”.
The spokesman added: “I cannot believe that past D-notice secretaries would have countenanced the destruction of any key documents. I can only repeat that while any attempted cover-up of this incident might have been attributed to a D-notice the truth would be that it was not.”
Theresa May, home secretary, this month told the Commons that an official review into whether there had been a cover-up of the Home Office’s handling of child-abuse allegations in the 1980s had returned a verdict of “not proven”. The review, by Peter Wanless, the chief executive of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, was prompted by the discovery that 114 Home Office files related to child abuse in the 1980s had gone missing.
On Saturday night the Labour MP for Rochdale, Simon Danczuk, whose book Smile for the Camera exposed the child sex abuse of the late Liberal MP Cyril Smith, said it was a matter of deep concern that D-notice correspondence had also disappeared, presumed destroyed. D-notices to media outlets are rare, with just five sent in 2009 and 10 in 2010, according to a freedom of information response from Air Vice-Marshal Andrew Vallance, secretary of the defence, press and broadcasting advisory committee, which oversees the system.
Danczuk said: “There are clearly questions to be answered as to why these documents were destroyed. They issue very few of them – where was the need to destroy correspondence?
“It feels like just another example of key documents from that period going missing. We need to know more about what has happened. The journalists who have said that D-notices were issued are respected people with no reason to lie.”
The two journalists, Don Hale, the former editor of the Bury Messenger, and Hilton Tims, news editor of the Surrey Comet between 1980 and 1988, both recall their publications being issued with D-notices around 1984. Tims, a veteran of the Daily Mail and BBC, where he was head of publicity for the launch of colour TV, said that his chief reporter had informed him that a D-notice had been issued to him after he tried to report on a police investigation into events at Elm Guest House, where Smith is said to have been a regular visitor.
Tims, 82, said: “One of the reporters on routine calls to the police learned that there was something going down at the guest house in Barnes. It was paedophilia, although that wasn’t the fashionable phrase at the time, it was ‘knocking up young boys’, or something like that.
“The reporter was told that there were a number of high-profile people involved and they were getting boys from a care home in the Richmond area. So I put someone on to it, the chief reporter I think, to make inquiries. It was the following day that we had a D-notice slapped on us; the reporter came over and told me. It was the only time in my career.”
Hale, who was awarded an OBE for his successful campaign to overturn the murder conviction of Stephen Downing, a victim of one of the longest-known miscarriages of justice, said he was issued with a D-notice when editor of the Bury Messenger. He had been given a file by Castle, by then an MEP, which had details of a Home Office investigation into allegations made by the Tory MP Geoffrey Dickens of the existence of a Westminster paedophile ring. The files contained the name of 16 MPs said to be involved and another 40 who were supportive of the goals of the Paedophile Information Exchange, which sought to reduce the age of consent.
Hale said he asked the Home Office for guidance on the dossier and the progress of the investigation but was stonewalled.
Hale said: “Then shortly after Cyril Smith bullied his way into my office. I thought he was going to punch me. He was sweating and aggressive and wanted to take the files away, saying it was a load of nonsense and that Barbara Castle just had a bee in her bonnet about homosexuals. I refused to give him the files.
“The very next day two non-uniformed officers, about 15 uniformed officers and another non-uniformed person, who didn’t introduce himself, came to the office waving a D-notice and said that I would be damaging national security if I reported on the file.”
A spokesman for the D-notice system said: “If Don Hale was ‘served’ with anything purporting to be a ‘D-notice’, it was quite obviously a fabrication.”

by Woofer 22.11.14 17:46

The reason given for some FOI requests refused in the MBM case is `national security`.

These MPs etc must be laughing their heads off that they have the freedom to abuse children and if anyone decides to investigate them a D notice is given to the investigators.

Surely the Prime Minister has to give his signature to these D notices or did Cyril Smith just phone up Air Vice Marshall Wotsisname and order him to issue it?

Unless MI5 or the Head of the D Notice Department is not ordered to present these files to an Independent Inquiry then child abuse will continue forever.

by Guest 22.11.14 18:06

Woofer wrote:The reason given for some FOI requests refused in the MBM case is `national security`.

These MPs etc must be laughing their heads off that they have the freedom to abuse children and if anyone decides to investigate them a D notice is given to the investigators.

Surely the Prime Minister has to give his signature to these D notices or did Cyril Smith just phone up Air Vice Marshall Wotsisname and order him to issue it?

Unless MI5 or the Head of the D Notice Department is not ordered to present these files to an Independent Inquiry then child abuse will continue forever.

Well said Woofer. clapping

If even elected representatives are given exceptional protection where has democracy gone?
Is there nobody who has a conscience anymore, these are such serious allegations. - we aren't talking about something simple like "cash for questions" or such.
I just despair, I really do.

by j.rob 22.11.14 22:45

Hale said: “Then shortly after Cyril Smith bullied his way into my office. I thought he was going to punch me. He was sweating and aggressive and wanted to take the files away, saying it was a load of nonsense and that Barbara Castle just had a bee in her bonnet about homosexuals. I refused to give him the files.
“The very next day two non-uniformed officers, about 15 uniformed officers and another non-uniformed person, who didn’t introduce himself, came to the office waving a D-notice and said that I would be damaging national security if I reported on the file.”
A spokesman for the D-notice system said: “If Don Hale was ‘served’ with anything purporting to be a ‘D-notice’, it was quite obviously a fabrication.

--------

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

Cyril Smith.......pass me the vomit bucket. Utterly repulsive specimen, imo.

by Doug D 23.11.14 1:41

The whole D-notice episode is basically a traversty and the official figures released above seem to confirm that 'unofficial' D-notices, such as seemingly waived at Don Hale could well have been the norm, and provide convenient 'deniability' further down the line.

You just need to look at the letter regarding a D-notice served on Joana Morais by Bindmans solicitors to see the nonsense of the whole thing. Unfortunately Joana didn't post up the actual D-notice referred to in the letter, but I wonder if it gets counted in the official stats?

Media ‘gagged over bid to report MP child sex cases’ Smaller

Media ‘gagged over bid to report MP child sex cases’ Smaller

For starters, it has no effect whatsoever outside the UK, so why even bother to serve it on a Portuguese resident living in Lisbon?

Secondly, even if served in this country, they are not legally binding, but more of an informative block for a news editor to use discretion to withhold a story.

http://www.dnotice.org.uk/danotices/danotice_05.htm

DA - Notice 05: United Kingdom Security & Intelligence Services & Special Services

1. Information falling within the following categories is normally regarded as being highly classified. It is requested that such information, unless it has been the subject of an official announcement or has been widely disclosed or discussed, should not be published without first seeking advice:  (a) specific covert operations, sources and methods of the Security Service, SIS and GCHQ, Defence Intelligence Units, Special Forces and those involved with them, the application of those methods*, including the interception of communications, and their targets; the same applies to those engaged on counter-terrorist operations;  (b) the identities, whereabouts and tasks of people who are or have been employed by these services or engaged on such work, including details of their families and home addresses, and any other information, including photographs, which could assist terrorist or other hostile organisations to identify a target;  (c) addresses and telephone numbers used by these services, except those now made public. 
2. Rationale. Identified staff from the intelligence and security services, others engaged on sensitive counter-terrorist operations, including the Special Forces, and those who are likely targets for attack are at real risk from terrorists. Security and intelligence operations contacts and techniques are easily compromised, and therefore need to be pursued in conditions of secrecy. Publicity about an operation which is in train finishes it. Publicity given even to an operation which has been completed, whether successfully or not, may well deny the opportunity for further exploitation of a capability, which may be unique against other hostile and illegal activity. The disclosure of identities can prejudice past, present and future operations. Even inaccurate speculation about the source of information on a given issue can put intelligence operations (and, in the worst cases, lives at risk and/or lead to the loss of information which is important in the interests of national security. Material which has been the subject of an official announcement is not covered by this notice. 

* even when used by the National Crime Agency (NCA). This is intended purely to protect national security and not to inhibit normal reporting on law enforcement.

As for 'cause serious risks to national security and to the individual concerned', what utter bollocks.

Joana's blog relating to the notice can be found here:

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/09/d-notice-5.html

which highlights the 'withdrawn' elements and the full Evening Standard article showing the 'secret'(?) name is here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BPBsOwXbeagJ:themaddiecasefiles.com/topic22716.html+Kennedy+was+impressed+by+the+license-to&cd=30&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

I don't believe Exton had this problem with the Richard D Hall documentaries, although from memory did he get them to pixelate his face?

by Bishop Brennan 23.11.14 2:34

Doug D wrote:The whole D-notice episode is basically a traversty and the official figures released above seem to confirm that 'unofficial' D-notices, such as seemingly waived at Don Hale could well have been the norm, and provide convenient 'deniability' further down the line.

It seems clear now that the term 'national security' as a protection for, well anything that government wishes, has been misused appallingly. We are familiar with how it has been used in the Maddie case. Imagine how many cases over the decades have used it...?

The problem is that there is no scrutiny or accountability for the official D notices, threats of D notices, fake D notices and 'national security' intimidation tactics. As a result, powerful people can deploy any of these tactics to close down the media, the police or the public. There is no right of reply, there is no appeal. There is simply a command to desist or else face imprisonment or worse...

The Maddie case, the Westminster sex rings, the Care Home abuses and the disgrace of the Catholic Church - all have exposed the rotten core of UK power and how it has protected itself for decades.

What's utterly extraordinary is that all this power, all these official agencies, all the threats and lives ruined - they were not used in the pursuit of money and great wealth. No, in every single case, they were to allow a small group of powerful people to indulge their unnatural sexual urges.

by Guest 23.11.14 9:46

D Notices are a scandal and an absolute abuse of power.

Where does "national security" come into cases of pedophilia?

Is there really one on Dunblane?

by Woofer 23.11.14 12:26

Seems more likely that it`s not `the government` that controls national security, but the security services and they are the ones that decide on what should be covered up. In fact I would say it`s the security services in partnership with the royal family that actually control the government. It would be the security services that controlled Gordon and Tony at the time of the MBM affair and they continue to dictate to Dave and Theresa over the Westminster coverup.

by Guest 23.11.14 12:47

Woofer wrote:Seems more likely that it`s not `the government` that controls national security, but the security services and they are the ones that decide on what should be covered up. In fact I would say it`s the security services in partnership with the royal family that actually control the government. It would be the security services that controlled Gordon and Tony at the time of the MBM affair and they continue to dictate to Dave and Theresa over the Westminster coverup.

Your suspicions match mine exactly, Woofer.

And continue to dictate to the current goverment the outcome of the case closest to our hearts, I would add.

Amaral believes a resolution will only happen to truth's advantage if the political 'will' shifts. We can only hope it will. There are tentative suggestions of a shift, but I'm not counting chickens yet.

by sallypelt 23.11.14 12:58

On the Andrew Marr show, this morning Home Secretary Theresa May says "historical child abuse claims being investigated are only the tip of iceberg"

Historic Westminster child abuse and murder claims 'only tip of the iceberg' in scandal, Theresa May warns

Home Secretary suggests more allegations and revelations are likely during Andrew Marr Show appearance where she also admitted Government is 'unlikely' to hit net immigration target

Revelations that politicians allegedly murdered and raped young boys is "only the tip of the iceberg" in the Westminster historic child abuse scandal, Theresa May has warned.
The Home Secretary expressed dismay that institutions designed to protect children failed in the past and said she was determined to bring those guilty to justice, whatever their position.
Mrs May also gave her strongest indication yet that the Government will miss its target to bring annual net migration below 100,000, saying reaching the goal by next May was "unlikely".
The comments came on a weekend in which Mrs May appeared on Radio 4's Desert Island Discs and on BBC One's The Andrew Marr Show – the corporation's flagship Sunday current affairs programme.
In recent weeks new allegations have emerged suggesting Tory MPs murdered and abused boys as part of an establishment paedophile network in the 1970s and 80s. Police are investigating the claims.

Mrs May told The Andrew Marr Show: "How was it that in the past, but continuing today, the very institutions of the state that should be protecting children were not doing so?"
"Why was it that these abuses were able to take place and that nobody was brought to justice as a result of that. We must as a society, I believe, get to the truth of that and because I think what we’re seeing is frankly - what we’ve already seen revealed - is only the tip of the iceberg on this issue.”
Earlier in the same programme the Metropolitan Police commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe said dozens of officers were investigating historic Westminster child abuse claims but admitted the police were struggling to locate old dossiers of evidence.
“First of all we are taking it seriously. We have got 40 detectives looking into these relatively new claims, and there are a series of claims over a relatively long period of time and not all of them are linked, although in the public’s imagination they may be, in that it is child abuse," Sir Bernard said.
"We have now had more recently this discussion or these claims about murder and of course that makes it even more serious."
He said locating old evidence was a "real challenge", adding: "You have to rely on the index and if the index is wrong you can't find it, or you look in the wrong box."
On the Government's net immigration target, Mrs May said: "It is of course unlikely that we’re going to reach the tens of thousands by the end of the Parliament."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11248683/Historic-Westminster-child-abuse-and-murder-claims-only-tip-of-the-iceberg-in-scandal-Theresa-May-warns.html

by **PeterMac** 23.11.14 13:56

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2845969/Former-Scotland-Yard-detectives-say-young-boys-murdered-Westminster-paedophile-ring.html

Former Scotland Yard detectives say young boys were murdered by Westminster paedophile ring
New claims reportedly made in written statements by two retired officers
Emerged after witness 'Nick' claimed he saw Tory MP throttle a boy, 12
Scandal revolves round Elm Guest House and Dolphin Square in London
Two journalists say they were barred from reporting for 'national security'
But 'D-notice requests from government in 1984' have now been destroyed
By DAN BLOOM FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 09:58 GMT, 23 November 2014 | UPDATED: 11:31 GMT, 23 November 2014

Two retired detectives have reportedly backed claims that young boys were murdered by politicians at paedophile orgies.
The claims, said to be in new written statements handed to the Metropolitan Police, have emerged just a week after a witness called 'Nick' claimed he saw a Tory MP throttle a 12-year-old boy to death.
Scotland Yard has already confirmed it is examining a 'possible homicide' committed 30 years ago by a paedophile ring whose ranks included senior Establishment figures.

Claims: Two ex-detectives have reportedly backed claims that young boys were murdered by a Westminster paedophile ring, whose haunts included the former Elm Guest House (left). Right: Posed by model
Abuse is also said to have taken place at Dolphin Square, a block of luxury apartments in Pimlico, London. 'Nick', who said he witnessed a 12-year-old boy's murder, said he was taken to an apartment here
Their alleged haunts included the now-notorious former Elm Guest House in Barnes, south west London, and a luxury apartment at Dolphin Square in Pimlico.
The two retired officers provided their information today to the Sunday People, which last week revealed the testimony of 'Nick' with the help of the Exaro investigative agency.
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According to the newspaper, the officers were part of the team which originally investigated the claims in the 1980s but it is thought they were told not to probe further.
Their claims appear to support those of 'Nick', now an adult, who said he was in the same room as a 12-year-old boy who was murdered by a Tory MP.
He told the Sunday People last week: 'I watched while that happened. I am not sure how I got out of that. Whether I will ever know why I survived, I am not sure.'

Fresh claims: Vishal Mehrotra's father Vishambar (right) recently claimed his son (left) was abducted, abused and murdered by a Westminster VIP paedophile ring which he said was linked to the Elm guest house
And the notion that they could have been told to halt their investigation backs claims of a cover-up made by several MPs, including campaigning Labour MP Tom Watson.
Mr Watson, who first raised allegations of a Westminster paedophile ring in Parliament, said last week: 'We are at the point where the government should consider a national police inquiry made up of specialists from around the country.
'It is unfair to ask the police in London alone to investigate alleged crimes that took place in many regions of the UK. I am writing to the PM to make this request.'
Two former local newspaper executives have now claimed they were told to stop their reporting of a Westminster paedophile ring in the name of 'national security'.
'DAVID BLUNKETT WAS TOLD OF CHILD ABUSE CLAIMS IN 2002'
A union official wrote to then-Home Secretary David Blunkett 12 years ago to make allegations about the Elm Guest house, the Sunday Express reports.
According to the report, Mr Blunkett replied personally to the letter in November 2002 after it raised concerns about a 'brothel on Rocks Lane' in south west London.
He is said to have referred the matter to the Home Office in his reply.
However, the allegations were then passed from to the Local Government Ombudsman - which passed responsibility again to the police.
It was a decade before a formal investigation was launched.
A spokesman for Mr Blunkett told the Sunday Express he made every effort to have the claims investigated, but they were 'extremely difficult' to deal with because the union official did not want Richmond Council to know about them.
The two men, Don Hale of the Bury Messenger and Hilton Tims of the Surrey Comet, told the Observer they were both served with D-notices around 1984 when they tried to report the story.
Now called DA-notices, the rarely-issued orders come from the government and strongly advise journalists not to reveal issues which could compromise the security services.
But the men's claims cannot be proved because D-notice correspondence 'with no historical significance' is destroyed after 20 years, the Observer reported.
Mr Tims, now 82, told MailOnline: 'We had a tip-off that there was something going on at a guest house in Barnes and I put a reporter onto it.
'He started making enquiries and didn't get very far with it, but got some information that some high-profile people had been using this guest house for their antics.
'The following day the reporter came to me and said we couldn't carry on with it, we'd had a D-notice. I think it was by phone, as I never saw any document and the editor at the time dealt with most of it. I was the news editor at the time.
'It was the only D-notice I ever encountered in my career. I was on the Daily Mail for six years and also worked at the BBC.'
Air Vice-Marshall Andrew Vallance, secretary of the current DA-notice committee, insisted it was 'inconceivable' that genuine D-notices would have been issued to cover up child abuse - or that they would have then been destroyed.
He said: 'The 20-year rule is standard throughout government. You get this mass of files that you haven't used for years and years and some of them have to be destroyed, but not all.
'Anything which contained letters of advice to the newspapers concerned would not have been destroyed.
'The more relevant question is where are these D-notices? If individuals claim to have received D-notice correspondence, let's see it.'
Last week Theresa May admitted there ‘might have been a cover-up’ of an Establishment paedophile ring after more than 100 files went missing from the Home Office.
NSPCC boss Peter Wanless and Richard Whittam QC had tried to track down 114 files dating to the 1980s.
+Labour MP Tom Watson has called for the inquiry to be extended beyond the Metropolitan Police. Home Secretary Theresa May admitted there may have been a cover-up after more than 100 files vanished
Just one was found while another was shredded by the Ministry of Justice, which took possession of the dossier, just three years ago.
In their government-commissioned report, the men concluded: ‘It is ... not possible to say whether files were ever removed or destroyed to cover up or hide allegations of organised or systematic child abuse by particular individuals because of the systems then in place.
'We cannot say that no file was removed or destroyed for that reason.’
In separate claims Vishambar Mehrotra, whose son Vishal was eight when he vanished on the day of the Royal wedding in 1981, said he may have murdered by Westminster-based abusers.
Nick Clegg called on Scotland Yard to investigate the ‘grotesque’ claims after Mr Mehrotra said a male prostitute phoned him and said the boy had been taken to the Elm Guest House.
A Met Police spokesman said last week: 'Our inquiries... have revealed further information regarding possible homicide. Based on our current knowledge, this is the first time that this specific information has been passed to the Met.
'Detectives from the Child Abuse Investigation Command are working closely with colleagues from the Homicide and Major Crime Command concerning this information, which is being looked at under the name of Operation Midland.
'We will not be giving a commentary as this inquiry develops, and it is important that officers are allowed to pursue their work without interference.'

by Joss 23.11.14 16:36

That article is truly shocking, but comes as no surprise. Look at the catholic church with its child molesting pedos, and now this. The sooner the child raping murdering scum on this earth disappear for good the better. What kind of sicko pervert does something like that to vulnerable children? Once they cross that line they no longer serve any useful purpose on this planet IMO, and don't deserve to be among other human beings.

by Joss 23.11.14 16:51

Historic Westminster child abuse and murder claims 'only tip of the iceberg' in scandal, Theresa May warns

Revelations that politicians allegedly murdered and raped young boys is "only the tip of the iceberg" in the Westminster historic child abuse scandal, Theresa May has warned.
The Home Secretary expressed dismay that institutions designed to protect children failed in the past and said she was determined to bring those guilty to justice, whatever their position.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11248683/Historic-Westminster-child-abuse-and-murder-claims-only-tip-of-the-iceberg-in-scandal-Theresa-May-warns.html

And this supposedly only the tip of the iceberg, Wow.

by **PeterMac** 23.11.14 17:01

What I find fascinating is that so many MPs have gone public, the MSM are publishing long and detailed articles in which they spell out the exact allegations,
and when the first arrests and interviews start not even Carter-Ruck will be able to do anything.

Remember that in a few months there will be a General Election, with public meetings and TV interviews
""Mrs May, could you tell the electors of Maidenhead how the enquiries into the multiple alleged murders and alleged sexual going on, are developing
You did promise the Country that there would be no cover up."

by Carrry On Doctor 23.11.14 17:07

I wonder what impact this will have on TM case ?

Why were the T9 given so much protection, what hold did they have at the highest level, and is this about to change ?

The people at the top may need another big story to take the heat off them.

Wow indeed.

IMO

by comperedna 23.11.14 17:13

I heard most of Theresa May on Desert Island Discs today. I am not a Tory, but she did not strike me as a person who would be cowed by 'powerful establishment forces' if child abuse and child murder were involved. Let's hope she goes for it.

Theresa May interview on BBC Andrew Marr Show today - link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04t1pzd/the-andrew-marr-show-23112014 - her answers about the child sexual abuse enquiries and murders of boys by MPs are at 55 mins

- TB, Moderator

by banshee 23.11.14 21:27

comperedna wrote:I heard most of Theresa May on Desert Island Discs today. I am not a Tory, but she did not strike me as a person who would be cowed by 'powerful establishment forces' if child abuse and child murder were involved. Let's hope she goes for it.

Theresa May interview on BBC Andrew Marr Show today - link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04t1pzd/the-andrew-marr-show-23112014 - her answers about the child sexual abuse enquiries and murders of boys by MPs are at 55 mins

- TB, Moderator

Here's hoping she does .. this is all so despicable and mind-blowing that it's hard to find words to describe a person who'd treat a child so inhumanely.

Let's hope too, if found guilty, these utterly abhorrent subhumans, no matter how old, end their days behind bars.

by margaret 23.11.14 22:03

I mentioned elm guest house on another forum in the summer, when sir.cliffs house was raided and I was ripped to shreds and called a conspiracy theorist, now there's even detectives coming forward with claims of murdered children, much, much worse than I ever mentioned happening there.

I remain an optimist, maybe just maybe the person who protected the mcs will be bought down.

Btw I read Gordon brown is stepping down as an MP.

by TheTruthWillOut 23.11.14 22:21

banshee wrote:
comperedna wrote:I heard most of Theresa May on Desert Island Discs today. I am not a Tory, but she did not strike me as a person who would be cowed by 'powerful establishment forces' if child abuse and child murder were involved. Let's hope she goes for it.

Theresa May interview on BBC Andrew Marr Show today - link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04t1pzd/the-andrew-marr-show-23112014 - her answers about the child sexual abuse enquiries and murders of boys by MPs are at 55 mins

- TB, Moderator
Here's hoping she does .. this is all so despicable and mind-blowing that it's hard to find words to describe a person who'd treat a child so inhumanely.

Let's hope too, if found guilty, these utterly abhorrent subhumans, no matter how old, end their days behind bars.

This story is being discussed on another forum I frequent and a poster there has compared the allegations to the movie Salo. I had heard that it was a video nasty for many years but today decided to look up the synopsis of it and it isn't far off sad

That Theresa May has now stated it is the tip of the iceberg just make my blood run cold.

by rustyjames 23.11.14 22:37

Thanks for the link Tony - it seems a very definitive statement.

".... and it's so important Andrew, there is a real issue here about how was it that in the past but continuing today the very institutions of the state that should be protecting children were not doing so; why was it that these abuses were able to take place and that nobody was brought to justice as a result of that. We must as a society I believe get to the truth of that and because I think what we are seeing is frankly what we've already seen revealed is only the tip of the iceberg on this issue."

by Okeydokey 23.11.14 23:54

rustyjames wrote:Thanks for the link Tony - it seems a very definitive statement.

".... and it's so important Andrew, there is a real issue here about how was it that in the past but continuing today the very institutions of the state that should be protecting children were not doing so; why was it that these abuses were able to take place and that nobody was brought to justice as a result of that. We must as a society I believe get to the truth of that and because I think what we are seeing is frankly what we've already seen revealed is only the tip of the iceberg on this issue."

Until a politician commenting on these matters actually mentions the F word (Freemasonry) I won't take them seriously.

by Joss 24.11.14 0:16

Okeydokey wrote:
rustyjames wrote:Thanks for the link Tony - it seems a very definitive statement.

".... and it's so important Andrew, there is a real issue here about how was it that in the past but continuing today the very institutions of the state that should be protecting children were not doing so; why was it that these abuses were able to take place and that nobody was brought to justice as a result of that. We must as a society I believe get to the truth of that and because I think what we are seeing is frankly what we've already seen revealed is only the tip of the iceberg on this issue."

Until a politician commenting on these matters actually mentions the F word (Freemasonry) I won't take them seriously.

What would freemasons, actually have to do with those child raping murdering scum, unless some of them were masons, which might not be necessarily what some of them are?
Maybe i'm not understanding your comment properly?

by Joss 24.11.14 0:48

PeterMac wrote:What I find fascinating is that so many MPs have gone public, the MSM are publishing long and detailed articles in which they spell out the exact allegations,
and when the first arrests and interviews start not even Carter-Ruck will be able to do anything.

Remember that in a few months there will be a General Election, with public meetings and TV interviews
""Mrs May, could you tell the electors of Maidenhead how the enquiries into the multiple alleged murders and alleged sexual going on, are developing
You did promise the Country that there would be no cover up."

I agree the timing of this is odd, and as you mention about an upcoming election. Hmmm.
Also wouldn't most of those accused be dead by now? I read one of the victims is now 40 yrs. old.

by Joss 24.11.14 0:59

margaret wrote:I mentioned elm guest house on another forum in the summer, when sir.cliffs house was raided and I was ripped to shreds and called a conspiracy theorist, now there's even detectives coming forward with claims of murdered children, much, much worse than I ever mentioned happening there.

I remain an optimist, maybe just maybe the person who protected the mcs will be bought down.

Btw I read Gordon brown is stepping down as an MP.

I think that some so called conspiracy theories do have elements of truth, and slowly the truth will emerge and become more obvious as to the agendas of ptb.
In regard to the McC's the political involvement in this case has lots of people asking lots of questions and why would the McC's be afforded so much protection is anyone's guess, but something sure stinks in this missing child case. I keep thinking of the Gaspar statements and how that could perhaps tie into this case too. Something as serious as that in a missing child case was never really investigated, especially with the speculation that Madeleine was possibly taken by paedophiles, and that theory purported by the parents themselves?
I also read that about Brown.

by Joss 24.11.14 1:22

Gordon Brown to STEP DOWN as MP: Former Prime Minister will quit at next election after 32 years in the Commons, sources say

Gordon Brown will formally announce plans to stand down 'within days'
Sources say he wants to bow out 'on a high' after showing in referendum
Former Prime Minister has been an MP in the Commons for 32 years
Comes in the wake of Alistair Darling also announcing plans to step down

By Thomas Burrows for MailOnline

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2845713/Gordon-Brown-STEP-MP-Former-Prime-Minister-step-days-32-years-Commons-sources-claim.html#ixzz3JwdXReMu
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