Re: What was so special about Burgau?

by Willo 02.01.12 19:37

Could the blue object be a holdall?

by Guest 02.01.12 19:48

Willo wrote:Could the blue object be a holdall?

What is a holdall ? Sorry english is my second language :)

Edit earlier post - i guess by gold bow they ment the gold neckles? and not head bow :P my fault :)

by monkey mind 02.01.12 19:54

TrollAng wrote:

Yes, Moa, I can see now where the blue in the background might be a t-shirt but I can't see where the wall in the balcony (middle picture) matches the makeup picture at all.

She would be stood just to the right of the balcony doors as you look at them. The bracket thing you can see in the makeup photo is there on the wall of the balcony photo, or at least something that looks remarkably like it, up near the top of the door just to the right. You have to magnify the balcony picture quite a lot to see it.

by Guest 02.01.12 19:56

I just found this front page for our leading news station. No online article but the front page saying clearly:

killed by mum, The most expertised murder investigators in the nordic agree with the PJ..
[img] What was so special about Burgau? - Page 8 Dagbla11

What was so special about Burgau? - Page 8 Dagbla11

[/img]

Admin - please remove to another thread if it fits better somewhere else :)

by monkey mind 02.01.12 22:10

The DNA evidence recovered from the Burgau apartment, that said to be similar to Robert Murat and Jane Tanner is particularly interesting. In the absence of any technical explanation of this DNA I thought I would try and put it in the simplest of terms that anyone can understand so that we can see for ourselves exactly how rare or common it is to find either of their DNA in that apartment. Well, I’ll have a go and try to be as brief as possible....

The only technical term we need to understand here is that the DNA recovered is what is known as mitochondrial DNA or mtDNA whichessentially is DNA that comes solely from the mother and is passed on to the embryo at conception, it has nothing at all to do with the male. As such it is a part profile lacking in the father’s characteristics and for this reason cannot provide a specific ID. So when we read the following two sentences we can see what they are saying.....

- The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples, (35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.

- The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.

We’ll deal with the more complex Murat first. What do they mean by same maternal bloodline? Well in order to visualise the overall picture more clearly let us consider that Murat’s mother upon conceiving him passed on something in her mtDNA by which we could easily distinguish the maternal line. Let’s say it gave him a nose like a huge orange carrot, easily recognised, this is the signature of his maternal line, which of course means that his mother has a carrot nose, as does her mother, and her grandmother, and so on. His sister Samantha is also a carrot nose along with his brother.

What about Robert Murat’s children and those of his brother and sister? Well in the case of Robert and his brother their children will not be carrot noses as they will inherit their mtDNA from an entirely different maternal line, so in their case, the buck stops with them, no more carrot noses. It’s actually a rather efficient way of eradicating unhealthy genes over a period of time. The children of his sister on the other hand would also be carrot noses as she is the direct conduit to the original maternal line, and if she gave birth to sons, that would be the end of it. No more carrot noses.

So it can be seen that we can automatically exclude anybody from Robert Murat’s father’s side of the family, all of them. We need only concern ourselves with the Eveleigh maternal lineage and there appears to be quite a few of those in theory, but not so in practise.

We can in fact eliminate all people called Eveleigh who are of the same generation as Robert Murat and his siblings. Why? Well, Robert’s mother has a brother Ralph who will also be a carrot nose but of course, being male, none of his children will. I don’t have a full family tree so am not sure if she had a sister but if so, and she had children they would be carrot noses but then they wouldn’t be Eveleighs as they would likely have married.

So in essence, the DNA found in that apartment that relates to Robert Murat or someone of the same maternal line means as I understand and on the information to hand, that it may belong to Robert, his brother, his sister or one of her children, his mother or his uncle Ralph. We can reasonably eliminate his sister as she lives in England and I have no knowledge of her being in PdL at the material time. Not sure about his brother. So on the face of it, it looks reasonably that that particular sample can only belong to Robert, his mother, his uncle, perhaps his brother. There may be one or two more but without knowledge of all his uncles and aunts not possible to say. We could stretch the bounds of credulity and travel further back up the maternal line to say Robert’s grandmother or great grandmother and on a different thread find another carrot nose or two, but realistically, they should all be in England.

The two samples that relate to Jane Tanner however are far easier. They can realistically on the information we have only belong to her or her children. We are not aware of any of her family, her mother or a brother sneaking over there at the material time and somehow by a weird twist of fate staying in that apartment. No that would be crazy. To any reasonable person, that sample must belong to Jane Tanner. I certainly can’t see how else it could be accounted for. Furthermore, as much of genetic analysis is about statistics, a statistician will tell us that the very fact that the only link between Tanner and the Murat/Eveleigh families is albeit a very tenuous one with Robert, it would increase the chances of the sample relating to him actually being his.

I find it difficult to see how the police can skip over this evidence, particularly in relation to Tanner, who only strengthens the Murat DNA. The only reasonable explanation we can see is that either Jane Tanner or her children were in that apartment. One must be open to alternatives, but how else could it appear there?

by sijm 02.01.12 22:43

Hello everyone hope you had a lovley time best wishes to all for 2012.

Because some of you here are so efficient at finding data, may I suggest looking up the marriage records of Dorsett, Devon and Summerset because I'm pretty sure I looked these up in 2008 and came up with a marriage record between a Tanner and Eveliegh.

Robert Murats mother was an Evelieght before she married.

The names Tanner and Evelieght seemed of West country origin, thats why I looked them up.

Could the hairs found with DNA of Murat and Tanner belong to one person rather than two people, one person with a genetic link to both parties of the Tanner and Eveleight bond of marriage in the family?

Not sure about the spelling of the name Evelieght, but I know Ralph (Roberts Murat's uncle) owns a Villa called Salsalito in Burgau with his wife Sally, Ralph Evelieght an Engineer by trade and he also has links with the old Fort in Praia da Luz Jazz group that play in the Old Fort Garden, that which is so close to the church where Gerry and Kate sought refuge to pray

Interesting is that a young blonde woman matching the same ID as the one in the Polish couple and the blonde middle aged female Jaz singer in the Old Fort Jaz group were both seen enjoying a drink in Ralph Eveleight's Villa, they were shown in an advert of the villa in the bar back in 2007.

So maybe there is a closer link with Jane Tanner and the Evelight family than just acquaintances? What was so special about Burgau? - Page 8 234726

What was so special about Burgau? - Page 8 234726

by Guest 02.01.12 22:47

Monkey mind, thanks for the mtdna explanation, very clear ad makes sense. I wondered how significant it was and it seems to be very important but glossed over.

Not sure If you read back through this thread, but there is another link between Murat and the apartment in burgau - this is from page 12 or 13 on this thread...

Stewie wrote:this may have already be known but there is a link between Robert Murat and the Solimar apartments, apart from the DNA potentially being his..

The Jacinto e Murat company which his father started built the apartment and there are some rumours that the block is or was managed by their real estate arm..
Looking at their website, it is pretty poor with crude cartoons and is very amateur looking. The links below show their website and the link tothe Solimar apartments on their website.

If you look at the source code for the first link (choose view then source on your browser) there is an interesting keyword in the page which basically means if people search using any of the keywords their site should be returned in the search results.. and one of the keywords is "sex"... not sure how common that is for websites to have in their keywords - I'd expect to find algarve, golf etc but probably not sex.. maybe burgau is special for special kinds of holidays?

"KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Arquitectura, Architecture, Portugal, tourism, Turismo, Vacances, holiday, férias, resort, apartamentos, Algarve, beach, praia, praias, Travel, water, sports, holiday, beach, Architectural projects, Real Estate, paradise, sex, golf "

http://www.jacinto-murat.pt/paginas/jm-ing.html

http://www.jacinto-murat.pt/portugal/solimar/index.html

by jd 02.01.12 23:21

The last few posts starting with Monkey Mind are very interesting indeed. Lets not forget also that Murat was in Devon less than a mile from tanners house a week prior to the holiday, alleging to see his sister who apparently ran an adoption agency

by aiyoyo 02.01.12 23:24

TrollAng wrote:I saw a dog or cat too Nina but I can't see any way the picture was taken on that balcony. I think the wall is an outside wall and the thing over her head is either a windchime or crucifix. The blue chair behind Madeleine is the wrong colour and shape for the furniture on the balcony. But I do think that the Ice Cream picture could well have been taken there, same shade of floor tiles and patio furniture.

Although the wall is similar colour and blue can turn out in different shades depending on light exposure as well. Despite these coincidences I dont think the photo is taken at that balcony.

Make up pic of a child is very normal for family album, nothing wrong with it per se, but in the context of her disappearance where her parents vehemently insisted that she was taken by paedophile then it is a stupid idea to release that pic.
Arent they worried about the impact of that photo to the pervert who held her?

I have never personally come across a child at that tender age heavily make up.
An older child messing about with certain cosmetics one at time usually starting with lipstick because easiest to apply yes I have seen quite a few tried out lipsticks that but never heavy eyes shadow because that is perhaps the most difficult to apply even for adult so for a child Maddie age to have applied it so thickly and spread out it's near impossible.

Although I personally don't see much anything into the pic, my view still stands that it is one hell of an inappropriate pic to circulate, not because of the P connotation, but because her eyes are very disturbing.

One poster pointed out her eyes are creepily heavy which I didnt agree at first, but on repeated looking, they do look disturbingly heavy and sad as if she's about to doze off any min. It's just madness to circulate a pic like that even for innocence reason. Surely there are many happy pics of her that they can use instead.

by monkey mind 02.01.12 23:56

Sijm said "Could the hairs found with DNA of Murat and Tanner belong to one person rather than two people, one person with a genetic link to both parties of the Tanner and Eveleight bond of marriage in the family?"

No, the samples represent two separate people with two distinct maternal lines.

by monkey mind 03.01.12 0:00

Stewie, yes thanks, just went through the whole thread this evening. I thought it very interesting that that particular website had lain untouched for a number of years and then has four updates from the middle of May 2007 til the end. Another one of them thar coincidees!

by **tigger** 03.01.12 8:44

monkey mind wrote:Stewie, yes thanks, just went through the whole thread this evening. I thought it very interesting that that particular website had lain untouched for a number of years and then has four updates from the middle of May 2007 til the end. Another one of them thar coincidees!

Quote from page 13
I remember that being discussed on 3A. Wasn't there other key words such as "girl" and "boy"? Very strange way of advertising a holiday apartment. I book privately owned apartments and villas every year and I think if one of the key words for the website was sex, I would skim over it and choose another place to stay.

littlepixie unquote.

I just thought to add this, I expect any proof of this is long gone?

by monkey mind 03.01.12 10:16

Gillyspot wrote:By the way where does the website get its TAGs from. I have checked view source (which is usual way to hide tags) and these words are not there.

Just as an aside I have checked on whoisdomain and although the website was set up in 1997 it only had multiple changes (i e was updated) from 15th May 2007.

We have 27 historical whois records for jacinto-murat.pt.
Here is a complete list of dates that we have whois records for.

You must Log In or Open an Account to view the historical whois records.

2007
2007-05-15
2007-05-20
2007-05-25
2007-05-26
2007-09-20

2008
2008-01-03
2008-05-08
2008-09-16
2008-10-21

2009
2009-01-03
2009-02-14
2009-04-22
2009-07-13
2009-09-29
2009-11-25

2010
2010-01-18
2010-01-25
2010-01-27
2010-03-28
2010-05-27
2010-07-23
2010-09-15
2010-11-09
2010-12-30

2011
2011-02-24
2011-05-20
2011-07-29

Odd or what since Murat was aguido at that time.

Tigger, yes I found that very interesting particularly wehn you put it alongside this post by Gillyspot and the four changes in May 2007 begining when Murat was made aguido. I'm afraid I know nothing about websites. I don't suppose there is anyway of going back through some internet archive or other and comparing changes from say 14/5/07 to 15/5/07 and the changes throughout that month? I suppose if it were it would have been done already...

by Upsy Daisy 03.01.12 11:17

Could the hairs found with DNA of Murat and Tanner belong to one person
rather than two people, one person with a genetic link to both parties
of the Tanner and Eveleight bond of marriage in the family?

No, the hairs can only be tested for the maternal line from the sample. In order to establish both the MtDNA (maternal) and Y DNA (Paternal) you need to take a sample from the supposed father of the sample of the woman to match them since the female automatically carries the MtDNA but not the Y DNA. In men they carry both MtDNA and YDNA. The problem with mtDNA is that the group that their hairs have been linked to are too vague. There are only 7 maternal lineages throughout the whole world. Basically any two individuals that share the same haplogroup does not necessarily link them at that particular time (unfortunately) since millions upon millions of people share the same haplogroups the world over. It's especially difficult to link people in Europe since there is such a huge admixture of types. If they were able to delve further and test further to a particular subclade they would have needed to gather either buccal swab or blood, saliva, semen etc which would determine which subclade which further narrows down the sample. However even this is still too vague. For example I belong to Haplogroup H, then to subclade H1, however as far as I am aware, so does 49% or so of the population tested in Portugal and Spain and also about a third of North Africans, Sardinians, Basques, Scandinavians, French, quite a large proportion of Brits, some Middle East and then US, Australia, etc............... so there you go, it's too vague to predict if certain people were or were not at the scene of a crime by using this method. Unfortunately coincidental or not it's sadly not anything to get too excited about......

by bristow 03.01.12 11:28

There is this search machine that will let you view websites at different stages of their 'life' so to speak, just put the url in the box and away you go.

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

by Guest 03.01.12 11:41

From the forensic report in the files:

- The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.

I think the official report clearly states there is a possibility that the hairs may have belonged to Jane Tanner.

by monkey mind 03.01.12 12:02

It seems I may have been unintentionally misleading in my earlier post. Genuine apologies. Don't believe everything a neurologist told you 18 years ago, or if you do, make sure you have the entire story. Perhaps I did back then. Anyway, I didn't mean to mislead, will be more careful in future.

Admin, might be best to whoosh that earlier post of mine, page 18. Sorry about that....

by Guest 03.01.12 12:08

monkey mind wrote:It seems I may have been unintentionally misleading in my earlier post. Genuine apologies. Don't believe everything a neurologist told you 18 years ago, or if you do, make sure you have the entire story. Perhaps I did back then. Anyway, I didn't mean to mislead, will be more careful in future.

Admin, might be best to whoosh that earlier post of mine, page 18. Sorry about that....

I cannot see a problem with that post monkey mind, after all, it is just your interpretation.

by Guest 04.01.12 21:23

Thanks for the tip on the web archiving tool Bristow.. it's revealed some interesting finds...

I put the http://www.jacinto-murat.pt/ url into the archiving tool and found some interesting keywords.. including the reference to boys and girls that was mentioned in previous posts.

The first archive for the landing page is 22 Jan 1998 and nothing particularly interesting in the keywords..
Next archive is 1 Dec 1998 and some interesting keywords have appeared:

"-- META TOP --META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="Jacinto & Murat, Lda"META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="holiday appartments in Algarve Portugal Europe"META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Arquitectura, Architecture, Portugal, tourism, Turismo, Vacances,holiday, férias, resort, apartamentos, Algarve, beach, praias, praia, plage, Travel, water sports,Lagos, heaven, Architectural, projects, sexo, sex, adulto, adult, equestrian, riding, love, romance, lonely, girls"

FILE ARCHIVED ON 5:41:42 Dec 1, 1998 AND RETRIEVED FROM THE
INTERNET ARCHIVE ON 21:05:56 Jan 4, 2012.

I haven't looked at all the intervening archives, but looking at the one for 6 Feb 2007 the keywords are still the same but at some point "boys" was added to the keywords:

META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="Jacinto & Murat, Lda"
META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="holiday appartments in Algarve Portugal, Europe, Best Fares Discount Travel"
META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Lagos, Portugal, Europe, euro, algarve, madrid, spain, tourism, Turismo, Vacances,holiday, férias, resort, apartamentos, Algarve, beach, praias, praia, plage, Arquitectura, Architecture, Travel, water sports,Lagos, heaven, Architectural, projects, sexo, sex, adulto, adult, equestrian, riding, love, romance, lonely, girls, boys"

FILE ARCHIVED ON 12:48:55 Feb 6, 2007 AND RETRIEVED FROM THE
INTERNET ARCHIVE ON 20:41:00 Jan 4, 2012.

The keywords are still the same as above on 13 jan 2010
Then by the time of the last archive on 2 april 2010 the keywords have changed to what we see today. with all the questionable words removed.... ...

Someone mentioned that the keywords had been noticed before on the 3 Arguidos forum? Wonder if that was in 2010 and the keywords were then changed .

META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="Jacinto & Murat, Lda Holiday apartments"
META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="Holiday, Portugal, lagos holiday, apartments, apartamentos, apartamento ferias,
férias, lagos, Algarve Portugal, Europa, estadia, estadias"
META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Lagos Portugal, holiday Lagos, algarve apartments, apartment, ferias lagos, Algarve Portugal Europa,
Holiday, Portugal, lagos holiday, apartments, apartamentos, apartamento ferias, férias, lagos, Algarve Portugal,estadia, estadias"

FILE ARCHIVED ON 10:53:18 Apr 2, 2010 AND RETRIEVED FROM THE
INTERNET ARCHIVE ON 20:56:45 Jan 4, 2012.

I noticed that old versions of the website have a guest book section so think I'll have a trawl of that and see if any interesting comments turn up....

by littlepixie 04.01.12 21:40

tigger wrote:
monkey mind wrote:Stewie, yes thanks, just went through the whole thread this evening. I thought it very interesting that that particular website had lain untouched for a number of years and then has four updates from the middle of May 2007 til the end. Another one of them thar coincidees!

Quote from page 13
I remember that being discussed on 3A. Wasn't there other key words such as "girl" and "boy"? Very strange way of advertising a holiday apartment. I book privately owned apartments and villas every year and I think if one of the key words for the website was sex, I would skim over it and choose another place to stay.

littlepixie unquote.

I just thought to add this, I expect any proof of this is long gone?

Edited as I was behind on the thread and have just seen the post above where the keywords are verified. I don't know when the keywords were changed but am sure the discussion was before 2010.
Boys and Girls IMO are strange keywords to use if trying to attract adults.

by Guest 05.01.12 9:24

Stewie wrote:Thanks for the tip on the web archiving tool Bristow.. it's revealed some interesting finds...

I put the http://www.jacinto-murat.pt/ url into the archiving tool and found some interesting keywords.. including the reference to boys and girls that was mentioned in previous posts.

The first archive for the landing page is 22 Jan 1998 and nothing particularly interesting in the keywords..
Next archive is 1 Dec 1998 and some interesting keywords have appeared:

"-- META TOP --META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="Jacinto & Murat, Lda"META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="holiday appartments in Algarve Portugal Europe"META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Arquitectura, Architecture, Portugal, tourism, Turismo, Vacances,holiday, férias, resort, apartamentos, Algarve, beach, praias, praia, plage, Travel, water sports,Lagos, heaven, Architectural, projects, sexo, sex, adulto, adult, equestrian, riding, love, romance, lonely, girls"

FILE ARCHIVED ON 5:41:42 Dec 1, 1998 AND RETRIEVED FROM THE
INTERNET ARCHIVE ON 21:05:56 Jan 4, 2012.

I haven't looked at all the intervening archives, but looking at the one for 6 Feb 2007 the keywords are still the same but at some point "boys" was added to the keywords:

META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="Jacinto & Murat, Lda"
META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="holiday appartments in Algarve Portugal, Europe, Best Fares Discount Travel"
META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Lagos, Portugal, Europe, euro, algarve, madrid, spain, tourism, Turismo, Vacances,holiday, férias, resort, apartamentos, Algarve, beach, praias, praia, plage, Arquitectura, Architecture, Travel, water sports,Lagos, heaven, Architectural, projects, sexo, sex, adulto, adult, equestrian, riding, love, romance, lonely, girls, boys"

FILE ARCHIVED ON 12:48:55 Feb 6, 2007 AND RETRIEVED FROM THE
INTERNET ARCHIVE ON 20:41:00 Jan 4, 2012.

The keywords are still the same as above on 13 jan 2010
Then by the time of the last archive on 2 april 2010 the keywords have changed to what we see today. with all the questionable words removed.... ...

Someone mentioned that the keywords had been noticed before on the 3 Arguidos forum? Wonder if that was in 2010 and the keywords were then changed .

META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="Jacinto & Murat, Lda Holiday apartments"
META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="Holiday, Portugal, lagos holiday, apartments, apartamentos, apartamento ferias,
férias, lagos, Algarve Portugal, Europa, estadia, estadias"
META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Lagos Portugal, holiday Lagos, algarve apartments, apartment, ferias lagos, Algarve Portugal Europa,
Holiday, Portugal, lagos holiday, apartments, apartamentos, apartamento ferias, férias, lagos, Algarve Portugal,estadia, estadias"

FILE ARCHIVED ON 10:53:18 Apr 2, 2010 AND RETRIEVED FROM THE
INTERNET ARCHIVE ON 20:56:45 Jan 4, 2012.

I noticed that old versions of the website have a guest book section so think I'll have a trawl of that and see if any interesting comments turn up....

Thank you Stewie for locating this information. I knew I had seen this post and remember raising the boy and girl statement there and then. As to whether this was 2010, I really don't know. If you know exactly when 3a's closed, the original discussion took place on there maybe a few months before it closed and I cannot remember if when someone noticed the wording had changed, was on 3a's or when everyone went over to MCF.

You are just brilliant. airkiss

ETA, thinking about it now, it did get changed after it was posted up on 3a's.

by Guest 05.01.12 9:46

When the person who located it first put it up on 3a's, the exact wording I am almost certain said 'good for boys and girls'. Other key words words like projects, sexo, sex, adulto, adult and lonely should never, never, be in the same sentence as 'good for boys and girls'.

2012 is really picking up speed now. Thank you. pray2

by uppatoffee 05.01.12 9:59

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I have just come across an article written by Tony about Robert Murat, which quotes Jenny, his mum, saying that her husband had bought a house in Burgau when they first moved out to Portugal as a family in the late 1960s.

by jd 05.01.12 10:01

uppatoffee wrote:I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I have just come across an article written by Tony about Robert Murat, which quotes Jenny, his mum, saying that her husband had bought a house in Burgau when they first moved out to Portugal as a family in the late 1960s.

Yes Murat has relatives living in Burgau

by Guest 05.01.12 10:01

Stella wrote:When the person who located it first put it up on 3a's, the exact wording I am almost certain said 'good for boys and girls'. Other key words words like projects, sexo, sex, adulto, adult and lonely should never, never, be in the same sentence as 'good for boys and girls'.

2012 is really picking up speed now. Thank you.

I also looked at the keywords from all the dates on the web engines., and cant find that it says good for boys and girls in any of them.. But it says love,romance, lonely,girls , boys.. And that shouldnt be in the same sentence either. I think Stewie pointet out all the keywords used on this site, I couldnt fint any other that what he already has pointet out.. So it never said good for boys and girls..Just to clear that up :)