Secondary drowning

Could secondary drowning, which means lack of oxygen, the cause of her sudden death on Thursday afternoon at around 3.00pm ? 
If so, the abduction story and timeline is total fake. 

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence in the PJ files and Kate’s book which shows that she was exhausted, pale and very tired 4 to 5 hours after the incident.
 

On Thursday morning there was a sailing incident in which Madeleine jumped into the sea to save the straw hat of Jessica Berry. She was saved by OC employees. 

In 2019 Neil Berry, the father of Jessica, told the press about this incident when the Netflix documentary was released. One can find an article about this incident. 



This secondary drowning scenario has never been investigated by the PJ nor the MET, but it explains a lot about the behaviour of her parents and Mark Warner in the cover up of this incident in this missing person case.

If Madeleine had died by secondary drowning, and it's not an impossible scenario, why would the McCann's cover it up?

They have no reason to keep an accidental death quiet to protect Mark Warner.

Welcome Arnold 

Moved to debate section.

crusader wrote:If Madeleine had died by secondary drowning, and it's not an impossible scenario, why would the McCann's cover it up?

They have no reason to keep an accidental death quiet to protect Mark Warner.

To avoid an autopsy, possibly revealing things best kept unknown?

Neil Berry waited 12 years and until the Netflix " documentary " to reveal this possible important information , why keep it to himself all these years ? 

No mention by anyone else of Madeleines " bravery " , launching herself into the sea for a hat ! Not even in Kate's " account of the truth " ! 

Surely the proud mother would include this in her book ? 

Imho a fiction , like the " where were you when we cried last night " which morphed into the " abductor " doing a " dry run " the night before . 

All to show Madeleine was alive and well on Thursday morning .

They covered up their own medical mistakes trying to save her life by creating a fake story about an abduction. The incident (not in details) is mentioned in the PJ files and the nanny was transferred to a Greek Ocean Club on May 13 2007 by MW.
Not only avoiding an autopsy was one of the main reasons to create a fake story. Their future being doctors was at stake, that’s why they choose not to call an ambulance. 

They perverted the course of justice with help from their tapas friends.

The real timeline shows that the dogs didn’t lie. Madeleine vomited a frotty pink fluid that afternoon before she died in 5A.  Read the symptoms of secondary drowning to understand what really happened to her. 

This incident and tragic outcome is overlooked by all investigators.

In Kates first statement she said Madeleine asked why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying.

In her first arguido statement, she said much the same.

However in Kate's book, this has morphed into "Why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night". Proving Madeleine was alive on Wednesday.

Could Mr's Fenn's statement be true and she did hear crying coming from below earlier in the week.

Having seen how these so-called nannies chose to behave in the night clubs, I wouldn't believe much they said.

Sorry but I don’t believe a word of those topless nannies. They were not random teens on holiday they were child minders, journalists asked them to lift their shirt so they did. If they lift their shirts for journalists they can do anything if & when £££ is offered.

Hello Arnold back!

With the best will in the world sorry to say your theory lacks that all important factor .... evidence!

Starting with the base of your idea - the boating incident. The incident was mentioned by holidaymaker Neil Berry, for the Netflix Madeleine McCann production many years after the event. Madeleine McCann's disappearance is known worldwide thanks to the publicity machine so, unless Neil Berry has been living in isolation cut off from the world, you can say with confidence the boating incident did not happen as he portrays, if at all. Your entire theory hinges on Neil Berry's glib passing comment, if there be any truth in the short story he would have made it known years ago, not waited for a bit part in a Netflix show - surely?

Netflix is not the ideal source to reference when looking for facts and truth, nor the media and press for that matter.

Catriona Baker, the nanny assigned to the day care of Madeleine during the holiday, recounts the boat trip thus..

Catriona Baker - witness statement 10th May 2007

Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos
Officer responsible: Manuel Pinho, Inspector
Description and result of diligence

Today (10 May 07), accompanied by Joao Barreiras and Catriona Baker, the 'nanny' responsible for the missing minor, retraced the places and times at which they left the resort area to go to Praia da Luz. A photographic report [of this journey] is attached:
- We were told by Catriona that the only days they went to the beach were Tuesday afternoon (1 May 2007) between 15:30 and 16:30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock (see attached table [of creche activities]).

- The route taken was as follows:

1. The parents left the children at "Baby Club", Mark Warner, situated next to the principal reception and which is open 24 hours;
2. then Catriona, with Madeleine and 4 or 5 more children, walked toward the beach. The distance is about 100 metres but not in a straight line;
3. she was always in front with the children behind linked together in a "summy snake" (the object being to form a snake so that the children stayed together in Indian file);
4. leaving the "Baby Club" they descended the stairs to the principal reception, through the front-entrance and crossed Rua Direita (the main street in Praia da Luz) heading for Beco das Palmeiras [passageway: called 'alley of palm trees'];
5. then they made a right towards Beco do Nordeste [passageway: called 'northeast alley'] after which they made a left and went down a stairway next to a property called "Casa Ortiga", that has the number 17;
6. at the bottom of the steps is Travessa das Redes [another street];
7. crossing this they descended alongside the parking lot towards the esplanade that runs the length of the beach;
8. after reaching the beach they went along the boardwalk to an area where there was a red awning and several thatched sunshades;

- On the first two days the children played and did activities in the sand. On the Thursday they went sailing next to the beach.
- On that day they sailed in a small yellow "catamaran";
- Alice Standley accompanied the children on the route and on the boat. Three children sailed with her at one time;

- Chris Unswork transported the children in a red amphibious boat (life-saving boat) until the boat reached the open sea, and, a few minutes later, returned them to the beach to pick up three other children from the group;

- All said that the children did not meet anyone else during their time at the beach, nor during the trip to it.
- All said that they saw no-one suspicious watching the children nor in the vicinity.
- Catriona said she noticed nothing abnormal [unusual] along the route either when going to the beach or when returning to the resort area.

Catriona Baker - rogatory interview 18th April 2008 [snipped]

I never noted anything strange in Madeleine's comportment during the time I stayed with her. There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10H30 in the morning, where she cried at the launch of the yellow safety boat in the ocean where all the children were sailing. She was scared and fearful and cried on my lap "I am scared, I am scared." We only used the launches to transport the children to the small yellow boats. When we returned to the other boat she was happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second time as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner's daughter also took part in my group and together they would play. Apart from being a happy child in the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine did not demonstrate any fear with the return launch to land.
.................

Always best to build on fact and evidence rather than hearsay.

Arnold wrote:There is a lot of circumstantial evidence in the PJ files and Kate’s book which shows that she was exhausted, pale and very tired 4 to 5 hours after the incident.

Circumstantial evidence is essentially hearsay, it can only be of use if backed by a positive.

The only direct reference to Madeleine's alleged state of tiredness comes from the mother, Kate McCann. Not a very reliable witness.

Arnold wrote:Madeleine vomited a frotty pink fluid that afternoon before she died in 5A.

I'm not aware of this alleged incident, would you be so kind as to direct us to the source of your information.

Thanks.

Taken from Kate's arguido statement regarding Madeleine being tired etc - 
 " Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities , not due to any sickness " 

In her first statement -4th May - Kate mentioned sailing no mention of Maddie falling or jumping in .. 
No mention either of the alleged " crying incident " or of Maddie being " pale and tired " 

Funnily enough no mention either of " wooshing curtains and slamming door " !!!

One has to ask how much reliability can be placed on what Kate and Gerry tell us ?.

Hearsay and circumstantial evidence will not stand up .

Hello Verdi, 

It was Jessica, the daughter of Neil Berry who remembered the incident. It was her straw hat. 


OC sailing employees Alice Standley and Chris Unsworth were present when Madeleine jumped into the ocean. They were heard by police. 

She got water in her lungs which caused lack of oxygen hours later. 
The physical symptoms described by Kate are linked to secondary drowning. 

This scenario has never been investigated. It was overlooked by policemen who never heard of it. 

It has a total different timeline. 

I do hope that forum members will investigate this tragic drowning scenario in which Madeleine died around 3.00pm in apartment 5A. 

Lack of evidence of an abduction becomes now an abduction of a dead body. The dogs didn’t lie.
This scenario give answers to many unanswered questions. 

But first one have to change the timeline to understand what really could have happened that day.

Hi Arnold, please can you show me where to find the statements of Alice and Chris, saying they were present when Madeleine jumped into the water.

If there is evidence of this incident, I would be interested to read it.
 Thank you.

Vera Krista wrote:Sorry but I don’t believe a word of those topless nannies. They were not random teens on holiday they were child minders, journalists asked them to lift their shirt so they did. If they lift their shirts for journalists they can do anything if & when £££ is offered.

I've got a lot of experience and knowledge of seasonal hotel/tourist complex staff, believe me they are not angels, guys and girls 'of a certain age' they are all the same. They are there for sun sea sex and sangria. A few hours a day work, covering for each other by private arrangement when otherwise engaged - management is not strict. For the most part the management are also at it.

You wouldn't believe the scams they get up to

Anyway, this is the press article published December 2007..

Cavorting half-naked as a pole-dancingnurse, the nanny who is a key witness in Maddie case

Daily Mail8 Dec 2007By David Wilkes

THE party is in full swing as childminders from the resort where Madeleine McCann vanished let their hair down.

In a series of photos, nannies from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz are seen in provocative and sometimes lurid poses.

Kirsty Maryan, 19, who has been described by the McCann family’s private investigators as a key witness in the case, poses in a nurse’s uniform and stockings and suspenders.

In one shot, she pretends to be a poledancer. In another she unzips to the waist while holding a finger to her lips. A logo on her outfit reads ‘Miss Massage’.

In others, Ocean Club nannies are pictured pulling down their jeans and pants to moon at the camera.

Most disturbingly, Emma Wilding, 22, is snapped exposing her bottom while wearing one of the yellow wristbands sold to raise funds for the Find Madeleine campaign. Madeleine’s mother Kate has worn one of the bands ever since her daughter disappeared.

In another picture Miss Maryan, stripped down to her black bra, dances with Miss Wilding, who has also removed her top.

The girls’ antics were described night by a friend of the McCann family as ‘insensitive’ and ‘inappropriate’.

It is unclear exactly when the dozens of photos were taken, but they were only recently posted on the internet social networking website Facebook.

Some are believed to have been taken on a night out in Praia da Luz, while others, including the nurse uniform shots, appear to date from a birthday party in Britain.

Miss Wilding says on the website that she met Miss Maryan ‘randomly’ this year at Luton Airport and discovered they would be working together at the Mark Warner

last complex. ‘We had some amazing nights!’ she adds.

Miss Maryan is said to be regarded as an important witness in the case after reportedly voicing doubts about the movements of suspect Robert Murat in the days following Madeleine’s disappearance.

Last night a friend of Madeleine’s parents said: ‘All of the nannies are fully supportive of the search for Madeleine. No one was more concerned than they were.

‘As young women they are entitled to have fun when they have the chance. But it’s a tad insensitive to have done this wearing the wristband. It’s inappropriate and they should have thought before indulging in this sort of behaviour.’

The McCanns made full use of the resort’s daytime childminder service during their holiday. Madeleine and her two-year-old twin siblings Sean and Amelie spent many hours being looked after by the carers.

But on the evening of May 3, Mr and Mrs McCann left their children in their apartment while they dined with their friends at a nearby tapas bar – something they have been heavily criticised for. They and the friends took it in turns to make regular checks on the children during the evening.

Last night neither Miss Maryan nor Miss Wilding would comment on the photos. Miss Maryan’s mother Joy, from Eastbourne, Sussex, said: ‘She is too traumatised to talk about the case.’

Miss Wilding’s mother Viv, who lives in Chichester, said: ‘She is here but she does not want to talk about it.’

The two girls are now thought to have gone to work at a resort in the French Alps.

A Mark Warner spokesman declined to comment.

It sounds like a tawdry place for a group of 'middle class, educated doctors ' to frequent.

Verdi wrote:

Vera Krista wrote:Sorry but I don’t believe a word of those topless nannies. They were not random teens on holiday they were child minders, journalists asked them to lift their shirt so they did. If they lift their shirts for journalists they can do anything if & when £££ is offered.

I've got a lot of experience and knowledge of seasonal hotel/tourist complex staff, believe me they are not angels, guys and girls 'of a certain age' they are all the same.  They are there for sun sea sex and sangria.  A few hours a day work, covering for each other by private arrangement when otherwise engaged - management is not strict.  For the most part the management are also at it.

You wouldn't believe the scams they get up to

Anyway, this is the press article published December 2007..

Cavorting half-naked as a pole-dancingnurse, the nanny who is a key witness in Maddie case

   Daily Mail8 Dec 2007By David Wilkes

THE party is in full swing as childminders from the resort where Madeleine McCann vanished let their hair down.

In a series of photos, nannies from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz are seen in provocative and sometimes lurid poses.

Kirsty Maryan, 19, who has been described by the McCann family’s private investigators as a key witness in the case, poses in a nurse’s uniform and stockings and suspenders.

In one shot, she pretends to be a poledancer. In another she unzips to the waist while holding a finger to her lips. A logo on her outfit reads ‘Miss Massage’.

In others, Ocean Club nannies are pictured pulling down their jeans and pants to moon at the camera.

Most disturbingly, Emma Wilding, 22, is snapped exposing her bottom while wearing one of the yellow wristbands sold to raise funds for the Find Madeleine campaign. Madeleine’s mother Kate has worn one of the bands ever since her daughter disappeared.

In another picture Miss Maryan, stripped down to her black bra, dances with Miss Wilding, who has also removed her top.

The girls’ antics were described night by a friend of the McCann family as ‘insensitive’ and ‘inappropriate’.

It is unclear exactly when the dozens of photos were taken, but they were only recently posted on the internet social networking website Facebook.

Some are believed to have been taken on a night out in Praia da Luz, while others, including the nurse uniform shots, appear to date from a birthday party in Britain.

Miss Wilding says on the website that she met Miss Maryan ‘randomly’ this year at Luton Airport and discovered they would be working together at the Mark Warner

last complex. ‘We had some amazing nights!’ she adds.

Miss Maryan is said to be regarded as an important witness in the case after reportedly voicing doubts about the movements of suspect Robert Murat in the days following Madeleine’s disappearance.

Last night a friend of Madeleine’s parents said: ‘All of the nannies are fully supportive of the search for Madeleine. No one was more concerned than they were.

‘As young women they are entitled to have fun when they have the chance. But it’s a tad insensitive to have done this wearing the wristband. It’s inappropriate and they should have thought before indulging in this sort of behaviour.’

The McCanns made full use of the resort’s daytime childminder service during their holiday. Madeleine and her two-year-old twin siblings Sean and Amelie spent many hours being looked after by the carers.

But on the evening of May 3, Mr and Mrs McCann left their children in their apartment while they dined with their friends at a nearby tapas bar – something they have been heavily criticised for. They and the friends took it in turns to make regular checks on the children during the evening.

Last night neither Miss Maryan nor Miss Wilding would comment on the photos. Miss Maryan’s mother Joy, from Eastbourne, Sussex, said: ‘She is too traumatised to talk about the case.’

Miss Wilding’s mother Viv, who lives in Chichester, said: ‘She is here but she does not want to talk about it.’

The two girls are now thought to have gone to work at a resort in the French Alps.

A Mark Warner spokesman declined to comment.

Hmm , no mention of the " rape whistles "  then !!! 

Arnold wrote:Hello Verdi, 

It was Jessica, the daughter of Neil Berry who remembered the incident. It was her straw hat. 


OC sailing employees Alice Standley and Chris Unsworth were present when Madeleine jumped into the ocean. They were heard by police. 

She got water in her lungs which caused lack of oxygen hours later. 
The physical symptoms described by Kate are linked to secondary drowning. 

This scenario has never been investigated. It was overlooked by policemen who never heard of it.

It has a total different timeline. 

I do hope that forum members will investigate this tragic drowning scenario in which Madeleine died around 3.00pm in apartment 5A. 

Lack of evidence of an abduction becomes now an abduction of a dead body. The dogs didn’t lie.
This scenario give answers to many unanswered questions. 

But first one have to change the timeline to understand what really could have happened that day.

With the greatest respect Arnold, if you want forum members to help support your theory you need to be more specific, as it stands you don't appear to have anything to substantiate your theory apart from a few words allegedly said by holidaymaker Neil Berry during filming of a Netflix show.  A show that is so far removed from fact and evidence it beggars belief that anyone would take it seriously.

Have a look at the forum thread about the Netflix Madeleine McCann 'documentary'.

On the one hand you say .... 'OC sailing employees Alice Standley and Chris Unsworth were present when Madeleine jumped into the ocean. They were heard by police.' and seconds later you say .... 'This scenario has never been investigated. It was overlooked by policemen who never heard of it.'




Where does the timeline fit in with your theory - what timeline are you referring to.

I hope your intentions here are honourable Arnold.

sandancer wrote:Hmm , no mention of the " rape whistles " then !!!

Leave Brueckner out of this !

CaKeLoveR wrote:It sounds like a tawdry place for a group of 'middle class, educated doctors ' to frequent.

I knew one guy quite well (not the Ocean Club of course) who worked as a hotel 'Jack of all trades', primarily he held al fresco gymnastic classes and water polo for the hotel guests, adults and children - not together. He did other things like take guests to the beach for volley ball.

He had one or two girls in every twenty four hours, eventually he ran off to Sweden with one particular holiday maker he met - needless to say, it didn't last..

Don't touch 'em with a barge poll, you don't know where they've been.

The tourists must have known what calibre of girl was looking after their children, if they used the same bars and clubs?

crusader wrote:Hi Arnold, please can you show me where to find the statements of Alice and Chris, saying they were present when Madeleine jumped into the water.

If there is evidence of this incident, I would be interested to read it.
 Thank you.

They both were heard by police about the whereabouts of Madeleine that Thursday morning. The incident was probably no part of the official investigation.  No official statements in the PJfiles. Maybe they also never heard of secondary drowning. That wouldn’t surprise me. 
It was Kate who talked about her worsening physical condition. She was carried from the pool area to apartment 5a. 

If they put her in bed they more worsened the situation. Standing up or laying down is forbidden trying to save her life. 

The only thing she needed was oxygen and observation. 

Did they, being doctors, cover up their own misdiagnosis and medical mistakes with help from some friends ? 

Lack of oxygen caused her tragic death after a near drowning that Thursday morning. 

As a new member I have to wait some days for putting links to my posts.

Verdi wrote:

Arnold wrote:Hello Verdi, 

It was Jessica, the daughter of Neil Berry who remembered the incident. It was her straw hat. 


OC sailing employees Alice Standley and Chris Unsworth were present when Madeleine jumped into the ocean. They were heard by police. 

She got water in her lungs which caused lack of oxygen hours later. 
The physical symptoms described by Kate are linked to secondary drowning. 

This scenario has never been investigated. It was overlooked by policemen who never heard of it.

It has a total different timeline. 

I do hope that forum members will investigate this tragic drowning scenario in which Madeleine died around 3.00pm in apartment 5A. 

Lack of evidence of an abduction becomes now an abduction of a dead body. The dogs didn’t lie.
This scenario give answers to many unanswered questions. 

But first one have to change the timeline to understand what really could have happened that day.

With the greatest respect Arnold, if you want forum members to help support your theory you need to be more specific, as it stands you don't appear to have anything to substantiate your theory apart from a few words allegedly said by holidaymaker Neil Berry during filming of a Netflix show.  A show that is so far removed from fact and evidence it beggars belief that anyone would take it seriously.

Have a look at the forum thread about the Netflix Madeleine McCann 'documentary'.

On the one hand you say .... 'OC sailing employees Alice Standley and Chris Unsworth were present when Madeleine jumped into the ocean. They were heard by police.' and seconds later you say .... 'This scenario has never been investigated. It was overlooked by policemen who never heard of it.'




Where does the timeline fit in with your theory - what timeline are you referring to.

I hope your intentions here are honourable Arnold.

It isn’t a theory but a by the PJ and Operation Grange overlooked possibility which can’t be excluded without an serious investigation. As far as I know was the PJ and OG in March 2020 informed about this sailing incident.
This is still an unsolved case. 
It was no murder, no abduction, no neglect according to this unexpected and sudden tragic event.

That shows this new timeline.