Cleaning of 5A

by **Jill Havern** 17.03.10 7:46

Posted by Tony

Now, a request from those of you who might be able to help me with a few questions.
These are matters I’m especially interested in if you can supply links or information:

2) Cleaning of 5A prior to the evening of 3 May. What exactly do we know for certain? Is there cogent evidence of a clean-up? Or not?

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Please use this thread to discuss the cleaning of 5A only.

by justagrannynow 1 17.03.10 16:39

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Maria Julia Serafim da Silva

Date/Time: 2007/05/07 16H45
Cleaner
Portuguese

Concerning the issue of the process said:
. That she comes to the process as a witness, manifested by her intention to make declarations in order to clarify the facts of the present investigation;
. The question made, she informs that she has been employed as a cleaner for 13 months in the Ocean Club. Together, and in the same department, she works with her daughters, Fatima Maria and Dora Isabel;
. Regarding her functions, she clarifies that she is the person responsible for cleaning block 5, and more specifically, apartments A, B,C, D, H, I, K,L, M and P, and can conclusively affirm that when the minor disappeared, only the apartments A, B, D, G, H and K were occupied. She states also that she is the only employee who cleans these apartments. In the preparation of Apartment A, that one in which the McCann family stayed, was prepared by the deponent with the help of her friend Dina, the previous Saturday, the 28th;
- She remembers that when she was preparing the apartment, she only received indication that it would be occupied by 5 people, not knowing children would be part of this. At that precise moment when Dina was helping her prepare the apartment,, elements of the Mark Warner business entered and proceeded immediately to place two children’s cots. It was only at this moment when she became aware that children would be staying there;
. The question made, she says that a third party placing the cots in the room is normal. Moreover, she says that only when apartments are reserved through the Mark Warner agency, it is they who are responsible for the placement of beds. On the other hand, when other travel agencies book the vacation, children’s beds are taken care of by the Ocean Club;
. In regards to her duties directly related to the apartment, she states that the last time she entered there was on the Wednesday, the day before the facts, more precisely on the 02 of May, where she carried out cleaning. Questioned, says that contrary to what has been established, on Thursday, the 03rd, she was doing something else, and did not have the opportunity to pick up the rubbish bags;
. She remembers that when she entered the apartment (A), on Wednesday, that inside she came across the parents. After being allowed to enter, she carried out her work, as they had already left. While she was there, she did not come across any child, supposing that they were in the crèche;
. During the time she carried out her work, she remembers having seen, given the scenario presented, that the couple slept in the room opposite the entrance way, where she came across a children’s cot. This room gives access to an exterior garden which is called the ground floor, and to a veranda. In the room closest to the door of the apartment, there was a bed pushed to the wall (where she assumed the missing child slept) and a second cot. All these beds were ‘messy’ and this told her that they had been used. She states further that in the room closest to the door, was another bed, which was not used;
. On the Friday following, the day after the disappearance of the child, she states that due to the police activity, she did not clean Apartment A;
. Questioned, states that on the days preceding the facts, she only entered the apartments to carry out her duties, and did not come across any element/object or strange fact that called her attention and which could be directly related to the disappearance;
. In the same vein, she states that she did not notice any element/person who presented with a strange comportment;
. Ending, she states that her hours of work begin at 10H00, terminating at 18H00, when she returns to Lagos, where she resides;
. And she said nothing further. Read, she finds it in conformity and signs
. This document is read, reviewed and found in conformity, and will be duly signed by me, Tony Almedia, an Inspector with this Polícia Judiciária.

by **sharonl** 17.03.10 22:08

There are two things that I am unsure of here. One is the timeline of events, if there was a cover up of death and hence a clean up, the time between 5-6pm when Maddie was last seen and 9-10pm when she disappeared, maximum 5 hours, would probably not be sufficent to organise a staged abduction, dispose of the body and organise a clean up. So, did Maddie dis-appear before May 3rd? There may be a clue in the date that the cleaners were asked not to attend.

Tony`s article on Robert Murat was very interesting and makes me think that maybe Maddie disappeared around May 1st. Murats involvement is very confusing to say the least and I am unsure of his innocence in all of this.

What was used to clean the apartment to the extent that Maddie`s DNA could not be found? Cillit Bang? or the chemicals from the chemical cupboard of Murats mate, to which Murat had the key which was found in his apartment?

by Ruby 17.03.10 23:38

Ah yes, the swimming pool cleaner guy. Could have been... welcome btw rock

by **Tony Bennett** 18.03.10 8:34

sharonl wrote:There are two things that I am unsure of here. One is the timeline of events, if there was a cover up of death and hence a clean up, the time between 5-6pm when Maddie was last seen and 9-10pm when she disappeared, maximum 5 hours, would probably not be sufficent to organise a staged abduction, dispose of the body and organise a clean up. So, did Maddie dis-appear before May 3rd? There may be a clue in the date that the cleaners were asked not to attend.

Although in the statement by Maria Julia Serafim da Silva which justagrannynow1 posted, the cleaner says she attended every day and she saw nothing untoward.

The only slight mysteries in her statement that I can detect are (1) the unmade bed and (2) one cot being in the parents' bedroom.

I think the two cots were in the children's room on the night of 3 May, so why the change and when was it made?

by **sharonl** 18.03.10 21:48

Tony Bennett wrote:
sharonl wrote:There are two things that I am unsure of here. One is the timeline of events, if there was a cover up of death and hence a clean up, the time between 5-6pm when Maddie was last seen and 9-10pm when she disappeared, maximum 5 hours, would probably not be sufficent to organise a staged abduction, dispose of the body and organise a clean up. So, did Maddie dis-appear before May 3rd? There may be a clue in the date that the cleaners were asked not to attend.
Although in the statement by Maria Julia Serafim da Silva which justagrannynow1 posted, the cleaner says she attended every day and she saw nothing untoward.

The only slight mysteries in her statement that I can detect are (1) the unmade bed and (2) one cot being in the parents' bedroom.

I think the two cots were in the children's room on the night of 3 May, so why the change and when was it made?

Tony

No doubt the cleaner attended every day, but were her services required? This comment comes from an article on Exposing Myth,distortion,corruption and the truth.

"The McCanns had also refused cleaners services on the morning of the 3rd May, were they planning to do the cleaning themselves?"

How sure are we that the cleaner was not turned away? thinking

by **Jill Havern** 18.03.10 21:51

Please don't feel uncomfortable about leaving the relevant link to the article sharon.

by **sharonl** 18.03.10 22:23

jkh wrote:Please don't feel uncomfortable about leaving the relevant link to the article sharon.

Yes, sorry, of course [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The mention of the cleaner is short and about 3/4 of the way down this article but I am certain that I have read this somewhere else. It would make sense.

by **Jill Havern** 18.03.10 22:29

While you're here, Sharon, have you read anywhere about the curtains being washed? I'm sure I read somewhere that the McCanns washed the curtains and can't understand why anyone would do that when they're only on holiday for a week.

by **sharonl** 18.03.10 22:32

jkh wrote:While you're here, Sharon, have you read anywhere about the curtains being washed? I'm sure I read somewhere that the McCanns washed the curtains and can't understand why anyone would do that when they're only on holiday for a week.

Yes, I have read this too. Very unusual to wash the curtains but not as crazy as taking a faulty fridge to the tip. I will go google and see what I can find.

by **Jill Havern** 18.03.10 22:36

I'm glad you've read it too because it means I'm not going mad! Have tried to google it with no luck.

Ah, yes, the fridge....

So far I have come up with only this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I know it`s there somewhere - will keep googling

by **sharonl** 18.03.10 23:12

jkh wrote:I'm glad you've read it too because it means I'm not going mad! Have tried to google it with no luck.

Ah, yes, the fridge....

So far I have come up with only this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I know it`s there somewhere - will keep googling

Found this:

This window had curtains that were removed and analysed by police, and a small blood sample was detected. Both the curtains and the wall where it was located at, had been washed.

Here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by **Jill Havern** 18.03.10 23:17

[quote="sharonl"]

jkh wrote:I'm glad you've read it too because it means I'm not going mad! Have tried to google it with no luck.

Ah, yes, the fridge....

So far I have come up with only this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I know it`s there somewhere - will keep googling

Found this:

This window had curtains that were removed and analysed by police, and a small blood sample was detected. Both the curtains and the wall where it was located at, had been washed.

Here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] quote]

Wow. I knew I hadn't imagined it, thank you Sharon for finding that.

Now why on earth would they wash the curtains when they'd only been there a few days? I certainly don't think about washing the curtains in a holiday apartment even when I'm there for a few weeks.

by Judge Mental 19.03.10 12:09

Do any of us ever think about trimming the hedges around our holiday apartments, when we have only booked for a week? thinking

by whatsupdoc 07.03.17 14:05

As the parents seemed to be sick in turn during the week, I would have asked the cleaner if she saw an excess of beds or cots in one apartment.

Were all the children being watched by the one parent who stayed in? If not all in one appartment, did the sick parent walk round the different appartments doing a check?

Leaving 2 year old twins is unacceptable, let alone a 3 year old, so to admit to neglect, I would think something a lot worse must have happened. I would think that one of the group was watching the children. But, as many have said, you can't have an abduction without neglect.

What ailment did these parents have? ...apart from umm umm err err itis?

Did they all turn up the following morning for breakfast @ the Millenium? (Miraculously cured).

by hawkmoth 07.03.17 15:21

Police hunt six British cleaners in search for Madeleine McCann

Police are hunting for six British cleaners driving a white van who were working near the apartment complex where missing Madeleine McCann and her family were staying.

Police are hunting for six British cleaners working at the apartment where Madeleine McCann was staying.

By Melanie Hall
11:49AM BST 19 May 2013

The workers are among the new suspects identified by Scotland Yard as ‘people of interest’ during a review of the Portuguese inquiry into the child’s disappearance in May 2007.
There are now believed to be 12 suspects, which include a number of Portuguese manual workers and British cleaners who were working near the apartments where three-year-old Madeleine, twin siblings Sean and Amelie and parents Gerry and Kate were holidaying.
Sources said that “low-level” workers such as handymen, cleaners and gardeners, some of whom are thought to have been employed by the Ocean Club complex on a casual basis and who may have already been interviewed, have become the focus of interest.
The police are keen to trace six British cleaners who were working in Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished, and who didn't appear in the Portuguese files.
The cleaners are believed to have used a white van, and went from apartment to apartment offering their services mainly to expats.

“There is quite a culture of people drifting from door to door offering services from everything from your garden to your roof or windows,” a source told the Mail on Sunday.
There are also a number of ‘more obvious’ suspects who already appear in the Portuguese files but who British police feel haven’t been ‘bottomed out’ properly and therefore warrant further investigation.
“There are a lot of people who could be explored further, if only to be eliminated,” said Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, head of Scotland Yard’s Homicide and Serious Crime Command.
But officers face having to tackle Portuguese resistance to re-opening the inquiry, after officials in Lisbon said they can reopen the case only if there is new evidence – although it has been claimed that the new leads could, if properly explored, result in new evidence and possibly solve the Madeleine mystery.
Detectives examining the Portuguese files were alarmed that the original inquiry had not traced and interviewed all the staff and holidaymakers who were at the Ocean Club when the three-year-old went missing.
Last year the Met said that it had identified 195 fresh leads that should have been investigated either by conducting further witness interviews, eliminating suspects or carrying out forensic tests that were missing from the 2007 inquiry.
Officers found unexplained gaps in the investigation timeline, with a complete lack of forensic examination of mobile phone activity in the area on the night Madeleine disappeared.
Mr Campbell said it was “perfectly probable” that information which could identify the suspect responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance was already in the Portuguese files, and reiterated a claim that she could still be alive.
“You only have to look at the case in Cleveland, Ohio, and the European cases,” he said. “Of course there is a possibility she is alive. But the key is to investigate the case and, alive or dead, we should be able to try and discern what happened.’”
A spokesman for the McCanns said: “They have been encouraged from the moment the review started and are now greatly encouraged that police have drawn up a short list of people who they believe are of interest to the inquiry.”

Sponsored

by Guest 07.03.17 16:54

I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.

by Verdi 08.03.17 0:30

What's_up_doc? wrote:I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.

What utter nonsense - I can't believe I've just read that. Have you been on the myth?

Maverick cop Harry Callahan couldn't match that expletive.

I challenge you to find a link (any old link will do) to the PJ files to verify that carp. Happy hunting..

by Guest 08.03.17 8:27

Verdi wrote:
What's_up_doc? wrote:I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.
What utter nonsense - I can't believe I've just read that. Have you been on the myth?

Maverick cop Harry Callahan couldn't match that expletive.

I challenge you to find a link (any old link will do) to the PJ files to verify that carp. Happy hunting..

Sorry - a bit sloppy - it was actually The Truth is Out There by Peter Scharrenberg. This is what he wrote:

'The next morning the Portuguese police begins immediately with forensic investigation of the shutters and the open window. Apart from the normal forensic officers, specialists of the better equipped LPC Crime Scene Unit also arrive at apartment 5A.It appears that fate favors the investigators as they hear from the resort's service manager that the apartment was thoroughly cleaned on Wednesday 2nd May.

If this is the case, it could be another factor in why the date of the 3rd was chosen by the McCanns.

... I'll get back to my crack den now and sorry to have disrupted your genteel world with my incoherent ramblings - If it's good enough for Sherlock it's good enough for me.

by Guest 08.03.17 8:46

I would also like to see corroboration of that claim as I've never heard it before.

by Guest 08.03.17 10:20

From the case files, statement of Maria Julia S da Silva.:

"With respect to her activities performed directly in the apartment, she declares that the last time she entered the apartment was on the Wednesday prior to the events, specifically on 2nd May, when she cleaned the apartment. '

by Guest 08.03.17 10:48

If you are actually interested in discussing the issue, rather than just trying to put people down Verdi, I believe this evidence is important because it corroborates the theory that Maddie came to harm earlier in the week. When the cleaner entered on May 2 to clean (see above) KM and GM were present but not the children. She (the cleaner) did not notice anything untoward - this suggests to me at least that the unofficial Mccann clean-up must have taken place at an earlier date because there were no damp patches on curtains or obvious smells of cleaning fluids to alert the cleaner, Maria da Silva, who I believe (here comes the opinion) is observant having read her statement. They remained in the apartment to make sure she re-cleaned what they had already cleaned, in my opinion. Just a theory, only an opinion, stay classy...

by Guest 08.03.17 11:21

What's_up_doc? wrote:From the case files, statement of Maria Julia S da Silva.:

"With respect to her activities performed directly in the apartment, she declares that the last time she entered the apartment was on the Wednesday prior to the events, specifically on 2nd May, when she cleaned the apartment. '

Where does it say "thoroughly"?

I don't think she cleaned it forensically. If it's like hotels it will be toilet, shower, possibly new towels, garbage (for sure she mentions that task) and (possibly) straighten the bed sheets.

Saturday morning seems like deep clean time.

But anyway... interesting about the crib.

by Verdi 08.03.17 12:04

What's_up_doc? wrote:If you are actually interested in discussing the issue

I'm not, the complete opposite in fact, I'm trying to stop this utterly ridiculous assertion from growing wings and flapping about cyberspace for the next ten years.

Stop digging doc - you're floundering. As a reminder, these were your exact words, I quote..

"I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.,"

You then go on to use a book written by a Dutch journalist as your primary source of information! Peter Scharrenberg is a Dutch journalist with about as much knowledge to produce an accurate summation of the case as Summers ans Swann - probably less because he wasn't privy to personal advisors to fill in the blanks. This book is a compilation of bits and pieces the author has picked up from various sources jumbled together to excite the imagination of the reader - looks like it worked. Another example of sloppy journalism and capitalizing on the case of a missing child.

I don't think anyone doubts the Ocean Club cleaners witness statement. A routine clean of a holiday apartment - thorough is not a word that springs to mind. A quick whizz about with the ajax and a mop of the floor circumnavigating any nuisance furniture that gets in the way.

Reject!

by Guest 08.03.17 12:14

It doesn't say thoroughly I'm content to know she did clean the apartment on May 2 and I believe it was most likely thorough enough to further eliminate incriminating evidence. Neither does it say 'superficially.' This is something that should have been established - what exactly did she do? She didn't actually remove the rubbish - she says she didn't have time. I've given you two sources that corroborate what I said which is the apartment was cleaned and the first states thoroughly. From my experience of holidays, sheets are changed at least mid week and floors are washed. Bathrooms are cleaned and towels are changed. The kitchen is wiped over. I didn't say forensically. I think the comments made in 'The Truth is Out There' are credible.

The point I wanted to make is that if the apartment was cleaned am. on May 2, I think we can eliminate the night of May 1 as the time Maddie came to harm, because I don't think curtains would have dried or smells eliminated in that space of time. It also means that the apartment has been cleaned a second time (at least) meaning there is greater confidence for any perpetrators that evidence has been eliminated. The fact that there is no forensic evidence of Maddie being in the apartment after May 2 suggests we should go back, not forward, to establish the crime date. I am only making inferences here and they are no more than that - but for me this explains the choice of May 3 as the night of potential staging and takes the date of the possible crime back to 31 April at the latest - in my opinion.