IVF - The Pope Speaks

by **PeterMac** 25.02.12 21:24

Is this the same Pope who blessed the photo ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106392/Pope-Benedict-XVI-tells-infertile-couple-shun-arrogant-IVF-treatment-sex-husband-wife-acceptable-way-conceive.html

Pope tells infertile couple to shun 'arrogant' IVF treatment as sex between husband and wife is the 'only acceptable' way to conceive
Dogma: The Pope told scientists and fertility experts that matrimony was the 'only place worthy of the call to existence of a new human being'
The Pope today urged infertile couples to shun IVF and insisted that sex between a husband and wife was the only acceptable way of conceiving.
Pope Benedict XVI said artificial methods of getting pregnant were simply 'arrogance' as he spoke at the end of a three-day Vatican conference on infertility in Rome.
He told scientists and fertility experts that matrimony was the 'only place worthy of the call to existence of a new human being'.
The Pope reiterated the Church's stance against artificial procreation, telling infertile couples they should refrain from trying to conceive through any method other than conjugal relations.
'The human and Christian dignity of procreation, in fact, doesn't consist in a "product", but in its link to the conjugal act, an expression of the love of the spouses of their union, not only biological but also spiritual,' Benedict said.
He told the specialists in his audience to resist 'the fascination of the technology of artificial fertility', warning against 'easy income, or even worse, the arrogance of taking the place of the Creator'.....

Oh Dear !
One (who got lost) and then two.
How many Hail Marys did that cost ?

by Liz Eagles 25.02.12 21:32

PeterMac wrote:Is this the same Pope who blessed the photo ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106392/Pope-Benedict-XVI-tells-infertile-couple-shun-arrogant-IVF-treatment-sex-husband-wife-acceptable-way-conceive.html
Pope tells infertile couple to shun 'arrogant' IVF treatment as sex between husband and wife is the 'only acceptable' way to conceive
Dogma: The Pope told scientists and fertility experts that matrimony was the 'only place worthy of the call to existence of a new human being'
The Pope today urged infertile couples to shun IVF and insisted that sex between a husband and wife was the only acceptable way of conceiving.
Pope Benedict XVI said artificial methods of getting pregnant were simply 'arrogance' as he spoke at the end of a three-day Vatican conference on infertility in Rome.
He told scientists and fertility experts that matrimony was the 'only place worthy of the call to existence of a new human being'.
The Pope reiterated the Church's stance against artificial procreation, telling infertile couples they should refrain from trying to conceive through any method other than conjugal relations.
'The human and Christian dignity of procreation, in fact, doesn't consist in a "product", but in its link to the conjugal act, an expression of the love of the spouses of their union, not only biological but also spiritual,' Benedict said.
He told the specialists in his audience to resist 'the fascination of the technology of artificial fertility', warning against 'easy income, or even worse, the arrogance of taking the place of the Creator'.....
Oh Dear !
One (who got lost) and then two.
How many Hail Marys did that cost ?

This is the same denomination that bans condoms. I am in South Africa. We live with the consequences of this stupidity. PeterMac, you are right if Kate and Gerry are supposed to be devout Catholics. I am related to devout Catholics who could not take holy communion because they were living together and not married. Strange isn't it that there is such a discrepency between being a devout Catholic who has conceived twice from IVF, neglected those children and then to get an audience with the Pope and a link to your website within a few weeks!

by **PeterMac** 25.02.12 21:43

I find the whole thing bizarre anyway. Why not just "confess" and get absolution every so often.
One assumes that the present Pope has spoken to his own confessor about his Hitler Youth past.

by Liz Eagles 25.02.12 22:03

PeterMac wrote:I find the whole thing bizarre anyway. Why not just "confess" and get absolution every so often.
One assumes that the present Pope has spoken to his own confessor about his Hitler Youth past.

In some ways I admire the Catholic faith. I like the idea of confessing your sins on a regular basis. It's a great idea to me. It makes you pull yourself up and review yourself regularly. So I don't have a problem with that. What I DO have a problem with is in order to be a part of the Catholic faith there is a requirement to conform to certain standards which K & G clearly didn't do and yet made a big deal out of being Catholics in PDL for starters, then the Papal visit - if you want to purge read Kate's diary 'Rome is preparing' and then Gerry's blog. The PR bloke has a lot to answer for....and a lot of Hail Mary's to say IMO.

Gerry's blog re the papal visit is hideous for a man of faith IMO.

by Ashwarya 25.02.12 23:21

Just because the McCanns pretend to be devout Catholics, except when it suits them to ignore the Church's teachings, that is no reason to slander the Pope. For the record he came from a family who recognised the evil of Nazism right from the start, his father was a policeman who was expected to betray dissident priests to the Gestapo whereas in fact he risked his life to warn them if he thought they were in danger. The Pope was never in the Hitler Youth - the famous photo shows him in his mid-teens in the uniform of an aircraft spotter to which he had been conscripted, and he eventually deserted and returned home, still only 17. I am sure you are right PeterMac that he felt great guilt over this enforced involvement and would certainly have confessed at the earliest opportunity. He is indeed the Pope who has spoken out against IVF, as did John Paul II.

by **tigger** 26.02.12 7:25

You are right Ashwarya, I'm not a catholic but I agree totally with the Pope on this. All this IVF was publicised by TV and other media. I was never in favour for the simple reason that there are millions of children who need homes. I am against 'no birth control' - world population at 7 billion?
Imo it's often simple vanity to have any kind of treatment to have your own genes perpetuated. I know a few couples who are childless and have simply chosen to enjoy the company of children of their family and friends. This is helpful for the parents as well as for the children.
The nuclear family was 'invented' in the 50's - not a natural way of living for humans, as can be seen from the extended families of Mediterranean countries.
Being childless in such a family situation would be compensated by the nephews and nieces.
As for the Pope's Nazi background, in NL there was Prince Claus - a dear and gentle man, but he was in the Hitler Youth, he had no choice. Children were indoctrinated from a very early age in the classroom.

by Woofer 26.02.12 18:22

And it was supposedly the Pope that invited the Mcs to Rome, as per the link below which is supposed to be an interview with CM.

And you have deliberately kept it going. You even made a tour through European capitals with the McCanns in a private jet, financed by sponsors.

Just a minute, this was not a rock-`n`-roll tour! We had just been thinking about where Maddie could have been brought. Most of the Algarve tourists come from Great Britain, Germany and the Netherlands. So we decided to organize a trip to Berlin and Amsterdam, to draw attention to Maddie. The highlight was a visit to the Pope. It had been the Vatican that approached us. The British clergy called and sent a message: The Pope followed the story on television. He saw a catholic couple in need and offered an audience. I thought, fantastic, spiritual support for the McCanns. But Kate and Gerry refused at first,they did not want to make themselves important. So I said: Think it over, I can make it happen. Then they said yes.

http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com/2011/10/mehr-clarence-als-man-vertragt.html#comment-form

by **tigger** 26.02.12 18:47

Woofer wrote:And it was supposedly the Pope that invited the Mcs to Rome, as per the link below which is supposed to be an interview with CM.

And you have deliberately kept it going. You even made a tour through European capitals with the McCanns in a private jet, financed by sponsors.

Just a minute, this was not a rock-`n`-roll tour! We had just been thinking about where Maddie could have been brought. Most of the Algarve tourists come from Great Britain, Germany and the Netherlands. So we decided to organize a trip to Berlin and Amsterdam, to draw attention to Maddie. The highlight was a visit to the Pope. It had been the Vatican that approached us. The British clergy called and sent a message: The Pope followed the story on television. He saw a catholic couple in need and offered an audience. I thought, fantastic, spiritual support for the McCanns. But Kate and Gerry refused at first,they did not want to make themselves important. So I said: Think it over, I can make it happen. Then they said yes.

http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com/2011/10/mehr-clarence-als-man-vertragt.html#comment-form

Errrm, that's pretty richt, considering that 'Rome was preparing itself for our visit' - they were just shoehorned into an already full audience of dozens of people. If they wanted to find Maddie, why go to Germany when she was sighted in Belgium? One of the best sightings where even DNA was saved from a glass the girl had used.
I remember it was the prelate of Ireland who arranged it. Doubt whether the Pope watches a lot of TV. The Vatican may well have sent them an invitation after being asked to do so by the cardinal.
The photographs make it look as if they were the only ones, half a minute they got I think and the whole Maddie link was whooshed from the Vatican site just days afterwards.
Well, I'm comforted by the fact that the Catholic Faith provides for sinners with Purgatory and Hell. Although I'd rather not wait that long.

by Upsy Daisy 26.02.12 20:31

so, is this the reason the Vatican removed any reference to them after the visit....they found out they had conceived via IVF????? IVF - The Pope Speaks 742129

by **tigger** 26.02.12 20:34

Upsy Daisy wrote:so, is this the reason the Vatican removed any reference to them after the visit....they found out they had conceived via IVF?????

The priest in PdL was rather upset with them and I don't think it was the IVF - perhaps he couldn't tell anyone else why but he could tell the Vatican.

by justcurious 26.02.12 20:48

You know Kate is not a catholic, devout or otherwise, her book page 107 that first Sunday (the beauty of the PDL church) didn't reach my heart.

As a good catholic she would go to church every Sunday so it would be her second visit, she would have gone on Sunday 29th April.

by Guest 26.02.12 21:16

Upsy Daisy wrote:so, is this the reason the Vatican removed any reference to them after the visit....they found out they had conceived via IVF?????

'course not, you lovely creature;

Vatican is facing multiple zillions of claims in damages for paedophilia, so not really anxious to attract even more attention towards Itsself by pampering the MaCs and so enjoining the Vatican reputation to theirs. Oh, by the way, where are all these key-handling roman catholic priests from PdL?

Has anyone researched their ensuing postings?

by Spaniel 26.02.12 22:51

Rather than think Rome was preparing itself, they should have been doing the same. Someone should have told him to kiss the ring not the hand. She meanwhile draped a Rosary around her neck like a piece of jewellery! They weren't advised correctly at all, but then they had assured the World that they were devout Catholics, so their advisers assumed that they knew the protocol.

They gave themselves away in front of The Pope. No wonder all trace of them was scrubbed from the Vatican website.

by **tigger** 27.02.12 7:26

Spaniel wrote:Rather than think Rome was preparing itself, they should have been doing the same. Someone should have told him to kiss the ring not the hand. She meanwhile draped a Rosary around her neck like a piece of jewellery! They weren't advised correctly at all, but then they had assured the World that they were devout Catholics, so their advisers assumed that they knew the protocol.

They gave themselves away in front of The Pope. No wonder all trace of them was scrubbed from the Vatican website.

It wasn't the only indication of their superiority complex - Kate wrote something to the effect that there would be riots in the UK if they got arrested.....
the good people of GB didn't feel the same way - fortunately.

by Liz Eagles 27.02.12 9:13

tigger wrote:
Spaniel wrote:Rather than think Rome was preparing itself, they should have been doing the same. Someone should have told him to kiss the ring not the hand. She meanwhile draped a Rosary around her neck like a piece of jewellery! They weren't advised correctly at all, but then they had assured the World that they were devout Catholics, so their advisers assumed that they knew the protocol.

They gave themselves away in front of The Pope. No wonder all trace of them was scrubbed from the Vatican website.

It wasn't the only indication of their superiority complex - Kate wrote something to the effect that there would be riots in the UK if they got arrested.....
the good people of GB didn't feel the same way - fortunately.

to Spaniel, I can't see evidence of a rosary around Kate's neck - I can see a string of beads (Kate does love a necklace) perhaps I've got it wrong and she was given something to drape around her neck that morning for a photo call. I'm posting a link and ask you to scroll down through all the photographs...they are very interesting (especially the hand-shake ones NOT from the McCanns). I think the McCanns were manipulated in this Rome visit by a very sinister PR machine.

Just to put it into perspective, on meeting the Queen it is unlikely that you would touch her unless she offered her hand to you. On meeting the Pope it is the same and yet if you look at the photographs (you don't need to read the text) you can see a big hand thrust in front of the Pope.

http://mccannfiles.com/id91.html

I think their PR machine got it all wrong IMO. Just as I suspect GM passed his blogs for editing through the PR bloke and his team.

by Miraflores 27.02.12 10:21

Extracted from the link above http://mccannfiles.com/id91.html

[color:cb11=000000]
Vatican Radio: "Susie Hodges from Vatican Radio. What lessons do you give
to other parents that have to go through this appalling experience?

Gerry McCann:
"I... We hope and pray that no-one ever does go through it
again. Errm... I
think... I hope that, if it does happen, that there will be some
template, errr... from what we
have done, as our
extended family, that will help raise the awareness for any other
missing children and it's possible to
such cases. Having
spoken, errm... to peop... you know, errr... people around us, then
stayed strong and taking control even
of small things because
you feel totally out of control in those first hours and taking control
of this... of this smallest
decisions helps you cope
and think rationally and influence things around you and that, I think,
is the most important thing."

How about cutting out the waffle Gerry, and making a one sentence reply? Something like this would fit the bill: "Never leave your children unattended like we did - it's not like dining in your back garden."

by russiandoll 27.02.12 12:41

justcurious wrote:
You know Kate is not a catholic, devout or otherwise, her book page 107 that first Sunday (the beauty of the PDL church) didn't reach my heart.

As a good catholic she would go to church every Sunday so it would be her second visit, she would have gone on Sunday 29th April.

you beat me to this one! when I read the bewk it stood out a mile..........no church on 29th April. Even if tired they would have managed it if practising Catholics, children could have been cared for for an hour. Wonder where they attended church back home, if they did attend at all.

by uppatoffee 27.02.12 13:10

From Pamalam's site

"Father Keith Tomlinson is the parish priest at the Sacred Heart Church in Rothley. He baptised the twins a year ago and is described as a close confidante of Kate and Gerry. He said: “They are a lovely family. This is a terrible time and our hearts here are with them. We will be praying for them. They came here most weeks and brought Madeleine. She is a nice bouncy happy little girl. They are friendly and open and obviously love one another and you sense that this is a husband and wife who are united in love and who adore their children.”

by Miraflores 27.02.12 13:10

One of the first things they would have done would have been to find the church and find the times of the services.

by **tigger** 27.02.12 13:23

uppatoffee wrote:From Pamalam's site

"Father Keith Tomlinson is the parish priest at the Sacred Heart Church in Rothley. He baptised the twins a year ago and is described as a close confidante of Kate and Gerry. He said: “They are a lovely family. This is a terrible time and our hearts here are with them. We will be praying for them. They came here most weeks and brought Madeleine. She is a nice bouncy happy little girl. They are friendly and open and obviously love one another and you sense that this is a husband and wife who are united in love and who adore their children.”

Why? I don't believe it, if only on the evidence of her own mother.
So why come out with this hagiography? A free advertisement for the roman catholic faith? Possibly.
It sounds as if he was reading from a script written by Barbara Cartland and Clarrie. Please don't get any ideas Clarrie, 'My search for Madeleine' new bestseller .....

by **tigger** 27.02.12 13:41

aquila wrote:
tigger wrote:
Spaniel wrote:Rather than think Rome was preparing itself, they should have been doing the same. Someone should have told him to kiss the ring not the hand. She meanwhile draped a Rosary around her neck like a piece of jewellery! They weren't advised correctly at all, but then they had assured the World that they were devout Catholics, so their advisers assumed that they knew the protocol.

They gave themselves away in front of The Pope. No wonder all trace of them was scrubbed from the Vatican website.

It wasn't the only indication of their superiority complex - Kate wrote something to the effect that there would be riots in the UK if they got arrested.....
the good people of GB didn't feel the same way - fortunately.

to Spaniel, I can't see evidence of a rosary around Kate's neck - I can see a string of beads (Kate does love a necklace) perhaps I've got it wrong and she was given something to drape around her neck that morning for a photo call. I'm posting a link and ask you to scroll down through all the photographs...they are very interesting (especially the hand-shake ones NOT from the McCanns). I think the McCanns were manipulated in this Rome visit by a very sinister PR machine.

Just to put it into perspective, on meeting the Queen it is unlikely that you would touch her unless she offered her hand to you. On meeting the Pope it is the same and yet if you look at the photographs (you don't need to read the text) you can see a big hand thrust in front of the Pope.

http://mccannfiles.com/id91.html

I think their PR machine got it all wrong IMO. Just as I suspect GM passed his blogs for editing through the PR bloke and his team.

RD, I've seen a clip of that which showed that the big hand thrust in front of the Pope was that of Clarrie. So the Pope got to shake the great man's hand after all - he must have been pleased!
I can't see this as the mcCanns being manipulated by a sinister PR machine at all. They were overjoyed at shaking the hand of just about anybody famous or powerful.Gerry was beside himself with joy to go to the US where he actually expected to meet the president! He was disappointed to only get access to the officials, but made the most of it in his blogs. I'm sure the blogs were written by Gerry. It's all about Gerry with a few obscure references thrown in for those 'in the know'. The blog was a way of communication in code without having the risk of mobile or email use.
Besides, he loves using the political/official terminology - he's forever trying to use it in interviews and often failing miserably. He's not big on logic or semantics but in politics, as Napoleon said, stupidity is no handicap.
As far as I can see, they kissed the ring - I'm not a RC and even I know that's what you have to do.

by russiandoll 27.02.12 13:44

Miraflores wrote:Extracted from the link above http://mccannfiles.com/id91.html

[color:c4c6=000000]
Vatican Radio: "Susie Hodges from Vatican Radio. What lessons do you give
to other parents that have to go through this appalling experience?

Gerry McCann:
"I... We hope and pray that no-one ever does go through it
again. Errm... I
think... I hope that, if it does happen, that there will be some
template, errr... from what we
have done, as our
extended family, that will help raise the awareness for any other
missing children and it's possible to
such cases. Having
spoken, errm... to peop... you know, errr... people around us, then
stayed strong and taking control even
of small things because
you feel totally out of control in those first hours and taking control
of this... of this smallest
decisions helps you cope
and think rationally and influence things around you and that, I think,
is the most important thing."

How about cutting out the waffle Gerry, and making a one sentence reply? Something like this would fit the bill: "Never leave your children unattended like we did - it's not like dining in your back garden."

exactly. but look at the waffle....there is one idea uppermost in his mind .Not a bad idea under the circumstances, what is concerning and open to question given the couple's behaviour, is the motive for this control and what they hope to achieve by it. taken at face value, an understandable desire to do something when they feel powerless and lost.... but with a cool and even a slightly cynical eye, another interpretation is possible. That if they lose control, it is all over for them.

by rainbow-fairy 27.02.12 14:46

Yet another example, IMO, of the McCann's re-writing the rules they don't like (a very narcissistic trait in itself). Its a bit like saying 'I'm a vegetarian, but I do eat fish'. If you're having IVF, you are not a devout Catholic, period. It is actually classed as a mortal sin to have IVF.
I'm not Catholic, but my view is a child is a privilege, NOT a born right, and if for whatever reason it doesn't happen naturally then that is how it is meant to be. There are plenty of children needing loving homes.
I honestly believe there is something a bit 'Frankenstein' about IVF, and the hugely inflated risk of health problems for IVF babies should maybe tell us something...

by uppatoffee 27.02.12 14:54

I'm not sure I'd agree RF. Until you are the situation where you have been told you can't have children naturally it is impossible to know how you'd react. IVF is not something you enter into lightly or without a great deal of thought. I know that IVF conflicts with Catholic beliefs but perhaps we are taking the faith issue too far. We know that the McCanns were not that religious before Madeleine's disappearance, so the desire for children must have been stronger than their faith.

I completely understand the McCann's desire to have children. It just seems odd that having gone through all that to get them, they should then "neglect" them by leaving them.

by **tigger** 27.02.12 16:26

uppatoffee wrote:I'm not sure I'd agree RF. Until you are the situation where you have been told you can't have children naturally it is impossible to know how you'd react. IVF is not something you enter into lightly or without a great deal of thought. I know that IVF conflicts with Catholic beliefs but perhaps we are taking the faith issue too far. We know that the McCanns were not that religious before Madeleine's disappearance, so the desire for children must have been stronger than their faith.

I completely understand the McCann's desire to have children. It just seems odd that having gone through all that to get them, they should then "neglect" them by leaving them.

I've come across people who tried very hard to have children, when this dearest wish was fulfilled, naturally not IVF, the reality was a disappointment, one parent complained that the baby they'd so desired was 'out of phase' i.e. didn't sleep at night.
Often the mere having of a child becomes an obsession, a goal in itself. Once the child arrives, reality takes over, a lot of work, not like they had imagined it.
I do realize there are other scenarios but I've personally seen it quite a lot. I think a lot of the blame can be put on the fairy tales put out by the media.

by Ashwarya 27.02.12 18:25

One thing I find particularly unbelievable is that a cradle Catholic, however lapsed, would not know that any woman expecting to meet the Pope should wear some form of head covering, usually a black mantilla for a married woman. The Pope would not take offence if someone genuinely didn't know, but how could KM not know that? To be fair, though, I don't think she was wearing a rosary round her neck at the time, but Cuddlecat was very regularly seen wearing one in his many appearances - not very appropriate, in my opinion.

by rainbow-fairy 27.02.12 18:48

tigger wrote:
uppatoffee wrote:I'm not sure I'd agree RF. Until you are the situation where you have been told you can't have children naturally it is impossible to know how you'd react. IVF is not something you enter into lightly or without a great deal of thought. I know that IVF conflicts with Catholic beliefs but perhaps we are taking the faith issue too far. We know that the McCanns were not that religious before Madeleine's disappearance, so the desire for children must have been stronger than their faith.

I completely understand the McCann's desire to have children. It just seems odd that having gone through all that to get them, they should then "neglect" them by leaving them.

I've come across people who tried very hard to have children, when this dearest wish was fulfilled, naturally not IVF, the reality was a disappointment, one parent complained that the baby they'd so desired was 'out of phase' i.e. didn't sleep at night.
Often the mere having of a child becomes an obsession, a goal in itself. Once the child arrives, reality takes over, a lot of work, not like they had imagined it.
I do realize there are other scenarios but I've personally seen it quite a lot. I think a lot of the blame can be put on the fairy tales put out by the media.

Absolutely agree tigger... the 'longed for' baby becomes so hyped, that reality (especially if the child is 'difficult') is a massive let down...

I just dont believe the McCanns are Catholic, nor do I believe the 'neglect' happened either.

Uppatoffee, just to be clear, its only my personal opinion on IVF, and for nine years it was thought I would never have children, out of the blue I was blessed (twice). I'd reconciled myself to being childless and I personally wouldn't have dreamt of IVF - like the Pope, I don't agree with it. Doesn't mean I condemn those who do! I'm merely pointing out that if the McCanns were as devout as they'd have us believe, they wouldn't have considered it either.

I hope I didn't offend anybody... if I did, please accept a sincere IVF - The Pope Speaks 725573

by uppatoffee 27.02.12 19:14

No offence taken! I have one child naturally and since had IVF unsuccessfully. I honestly have not considered any of the health issues. Not sure how much evidence there is to support this. Wasn't something I thought about as there was such a small chance of success for me. I'm fairly sure other people trying IVF would have a similar approach as the short term goal is most important, anything else seems so far off.

by **tigger** 27.02.12 19:37

Ashwarya wrote:One thing I find particularly unbelievable is that a cradle Catholic, however lapsed, would not know that any woman expecting to meet the Pope should wear some form of head covering, usually a black mantilla for a married woman. The Pope would not take offence if someone genuinely didn't know, but how could KM not know that? To be fair, though, I don't think she was wearing a rosary round her neck at the time, but Cuddlecat was very regularly seen wearing one in his many appearances - not very appropriate, in my opinion.

Completely overlooked that, all the other women were wearing hats ad so on. Come to think of it - when I go into RC churches and cathedrals, I always cover my arms and wouldn't dream of walking in in shorts or a very short skirt. Someone told me once about covering your arms and I've always done it, you must respect other peoples religion or don't go in otherwise.
Well, don't forget Kate's mantra: instead of praying when she was at the police station she repeated the mantra: f.........g tosser. It's in the bewk.

by Guest 27.02.12 20:16

tigger wrote:
Ashwarya wrote:One thing I find particularly unbelievable is that a cradle Catholic, however lapsed, would not know that any woman expecting to meet the Pope should wear some form of head covering, usually a black mantilla for a married woman. The Pope would not take offence if someone genuinely didn't know, but how could KM not know that? To be fair, though, I don't think she was wearing a rosary round her neck at the time, but Cuddlecat was very regularly seen wearing one in his many appearances - not very appropriate, in my opinion.

Completely overlooked that, all the other women were wearing hats ad so on. Come to think of it - when I go into RC churches and cathedrals, I always cover my arms and wouldn't dream of walking in in shorts or a very short skirt. Someone told me once about covering your arms and I've always done it, you must respect other peoples religion or don't go in otherwise.
Well, don't forget Kate's mantra: instead of praying when she was at the police station she repeated the mantra: f.........g tosser. It's in the bewk.

Are they allowed to take Communion on Sundays?
If not, why not?