The dodgy DNA evidence that lead to the McCanns being made suspects - includes the piece about 6 dead bodies

Here we have the quote about the 6 dead patients before KM went to PDL  (thought I had better save for posterity)...................

The dodgy DNA evidence that lead to the McCanns being made suspects

By Vanessa Allen

Last updated at 6:51 AM on 22nd July 2008


The forensic evidence which led to Kate and Gerry McCann being named as suspects was misunderstood by Portuguese police, it was claimed yesterday.
Detectives wrongly believed the work of British experts supported their theory that Madeleine had died in her parents' rented holiday apartment, when in fact the DNA analysis was inconclusive, it was suggested.
The claims come from leaks from inside the Portuguese investigation, based on an initial British forensic report into the case.
Detectives apparently believed that scientists found Madeleine's DNA and blood in the apartment and in the McCanns' hire car, which they did not rent until 25 days after her disappearance.
Armed with that 'evidence' and the knowledge that dogs supposedly found the 'scent of death' on Mrs McCann's clothes, they decided to name the couple as suspects.

But the final report from the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham several weeks later said that the DNA evidence in the case was inconclusive, and did not support the police's theory.

The report, handed over a month after the McCanns were made suspects, said scientists could not be sure if the samples had come from Madeleine, her younger sister Amelie, or even from her mother.

The samples were said to be tiny, badly degraded and heavily contaminated.

The dogs' reaction was also questioned following claims that they were unreliable and had been criticised in a U.S. trial.

Police also failed to realise that Mrs McCann, who is a GP, had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday.

The collapse of the key elements of the investigation led to the police inquiry stalling, and eventually to yesterday's decision to clear the McCanns as suspects..

It was said to have led to an angry clash between Portuguese detectives and British forensic officials during a visit to Leicester in December. Officers arrived expecting to hear details of the DNA evidence, and had pinned their hopes on it solving their investigation.
 
Sources said there was a ' standup row' when they were told that the evidence was inconclusive.
FSS officials have angrily denied any suggestion that a blunder by their scientists could have been to blame.
Lawyers representing the lab flew to Portugal last week to try to block plans to make their findings public.

Mark Williams-Thomas, a former police officer who claims to have had access to the Portuguese case, said the police had pinned their case on the DNA evidence.
'It was a key element of the decision to make the McCanns suspects, along with the cadaver dogs and supposed discrepancies between the statements of the Tapas Seven (the group of friends who dined with the McCanns on the night Madeleine vanished).
'There were two reports from the FSS lab, one in September and one in December.
'The first was thought to be conclusive but the second one wasn't.'
Mr Williams-Thomas questioned whether the Portuguese police had fully understood the first, preliminary report from the FSS.
'We don't know the level of expertise within the Portuguese police to interpret the results,' he said.
A source close to the Birminghambased forensic lab added: 'There is absolutely no question of the reports being contradictory.
'The way the scientists work is utterly focused on facts and accuracy. Everything they find is checked, sent off to other scientists and checked again.
'There were no mistakes made. When the case files are made public, this will become obvious.'


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The Madeleine McCann Mystery

By Bill Hewitt





For the past four months Gerry and Kate McCann repeatedly insisted on one thing: They would not be leaving Portugal without their daughter Madeleine, 3, who vanished on the night of May 3 from their rented holiday apartment. But by the early morning hours of Sept. 9 that brave front lay in ruins, as the McCanns, trailed by reporters, exited to England from the town Praia da Luz without their child—and suddenly and stunningly under suspicion that they might be responsible for her disappearance and death. To the couple and their many supporters around the world it was a turn of events that defied belief. "We're entirely innocent," Gerry told a British paper. "We thought we were in our worst nightmare, but now it just keeps getting worse and worse."

And far worse may be coming in the weeks and months ahead. Aside from formally naming the McCanns as suspects, Portuguese officials have declined to lay out their case. But now, according to numerous reports, they believe the McCanns may have sedated their daughter, that she died, perhaps accidentally, and that the British couple, both 39 and physicians, hid the body for weeks before disposing of it. Gerry McCann's sister Philomena told PEOPLE that in an extraordinary two days of interrogation, Portuguese investigators offered Kate a deal: Admit to killing your daughter and receive a sentence of no more than two years. Said Philomena: "They tried to get her to confess." According to police sources, the McCanns, who were free to leave the country as long as they promised to stay at their home in Rothley, England, could soon be formally charged in the death—a prospect that the couple insist is only diverting attention from the search for Madeleine. "It is ridiculous," said Kate of the cloud of suspicion. As Gerry's brother John McCann told PEOPLE, "It doesn't stack up. I'm trying to be calm but inside I'm seething."

Certainly the McCanns make an unlikely pair of suspects. Married for nine years, they met when both were working at a hospital in Glasgow. Says Philomena: "After a night out Gerry returned home and told us he had met the girl of his dreams." Gerry went on to become a respected cardiologist, and Kate, who had wanted to become a doctor since she was a teen, a general practitioner. After years of struggling to conceive they used fertility treatment to give birth to Madeleine. Just over a year later they had twins Sean and Amelie. Their home in Rothley, in Leicestershire, is comfortable but hardly extravagant. Both are fitness buffs who enjoy socializing. "They have many friends," says Kate's father, Brian Healy, "but their main thing is their family."

That family is now at the center of their anguish. From the start the case has been fraught with puzzling or contradictory scraps of evidence. Perhaps the key element appears to be the car, a Renault Scenic, that the McCanns rented 25 days after Maddy's disappearance. When Portuguese investigators initially searched the vehicle in early August, they evidently found no clues. But when British police, who have been assisting on the case, brought in sniffer dogs, they discovered DNA linked to Madeleine under the floor mat in the trunk. It is unclear what that DNA evidence is—whether blood, some other body fluids or, as a report in the Daily Mail on Sept. 12 had it, a large sample of Madeleine's hair. There have also been conflicting accounts of how closely any of the samples can be matched to Madeleine.

If the DNA is in fact blood, and it came from the missing girl, it could provide damning evidence that her body was placed there. But there are also major difficulties for prosecutors with that scenario. Experts say that generally—though not always—blood needs to be fresh in order to be transferred to another surface. But the McCanns didn't have the car until long after Madeleine disappeared. Not only that, as McCann supporters point out: How could the McCanns have managed to hide the body for nearly a month and then get rid of it—all while being under almost nonstop scrutiny from police and the press. "Even if they had the emotional capacity to do it, if you look at the time line, they could not have physically done it," says Gerry's brother John. Some prominent forensic experts in the U.S. agree. "Where in a hotel can you hide a child's body for 25 days?" says noted forensic pathologist Michael Baden. "And remember, a body, especially in a warm place like Portugal, would rapidly decompose."

Cadaver-sniffing dogs brought in by investigators, however, reportedly responded to Kate's clothing, then became agitated when they were given the scent of the McCanns' car key fob. During 16 hours of police questioning over two days, says Philomena McCann, "Kate was repeatedly shown the sniffer dog video." Kate McCann reportedly explained to police that, as a GP, she came in contact with six bodies shortly before leaving for Portugal. As a senior Scotland Yard investigator points out, cadaver dogs can't tell one corpse from another and have little value in tying a suspect to a specific body. "Dogs can sniff out death," he says. "However, you can't ask a dog to stand up in court and give evidence."

On the night in question, the sixth of their weeklong holiday, the McCanns say that they and three other couples and another woman went out for dinner around 8:30 p.m. at a restaurant approximately 100 yards—across a pool area—from the apartment they had rented for about $4,600 including transportation. Their rooms at the family-friendly resort, which resembles a development of beachside townhouses, were on the ground floor. There they had left their three children, Madeleine, whose birthday was nine days after her disappearance, and the twins. Despite the fact that the resort offered babysitting in a child-care center or in-room sitting for a fee for guests dining at the restaurant, the McCanns elected to leave the children asleep, but unattended, and check on them every half hour or so, evidently because Kate preferred not to leave them with strangers. But according to Portuguese news reports, an upstairs neighbor, Pamela Fenn, told police that the McCanns had not looked in that frequently. Fenn also told investigators that when the McCanns had discovered Madeleine missing about 10:15 p.m. she had offered to call police. She contends Kate told her the call had already been made, when it appears that police were summoned 40 minutes after that conversation took place. What's more, witnesses said that Kate's initial cry was "They've taken her!"—which some commentators have suggested represents a bizarrely hasty conclusion.

While parsing the words of a mother whose child has gone missing may be unfair, there were other wrinkles as well. The McCanns and their seven friends said they consumed four bottles of wine, leaving two others virtually untouched. But police reportedly have receipts showing that the group actually paid for 14 bottles of wine over the course of the afternoon and evening. In any event, the McCanns' friends have said that neither Kate nor Gerry seemed the least bit agitated during the dinner.

Questions of credibility abound on all sides. One Portuguese newspaper reported that police insist that Gerry acknowledged during his interrogation that he sedated his children on the night in question, for reasons that were not made clear. Kate was also questioned about administering a sedative. Friends told PEOPLE that if they ever did administer a sedative, it would be something mild like Calpol, a syrupy equivalent to children's Tylenol given to kids for colds and minor fevers. According to some press accounts, Kate declined to answer a substantial number of questions during her interrogation session, but a source close to the family dismissed the notion she was trying to hide anything. "Their Portuguese lawyer was saying there were certain questions they shouldn't answer," says the source, "either because they were not in a position to, or because it was the same question being asked in different ways." According to the source, the investigators simply appeared to be trying to rattle the couple in hopes of shaking loose a confession. "There were some things they said—'We have evidence of this or that'—which they didn't produce," he says. "There was a strong suspicion of an element of bluff about it."

The McCann camp believes that the local authorities are railroading the couple because their investigation is stalled and they are under intense pressure to show progress in a case that has become an object of worldwide attention. But Paul Luckman, a British expatriate who has lived in Portugal for 34 years and is the publisher of Portugal News, an English-language newspaper, argues that local authorities have far more effective means for defusing the bad publicity if that were their only intent. "The best way to make this case go away quietly was to let the McCanns go and let the case quietly, gently die," he says. "Say how sorry we are and wrap it up."

Still, there has been considerable criticism in the British press over the Portuguese handling of the case, with some newspapers slamming the police for not securing the McCanns' room as a crime scene from the moment that Madeleine vanished. But even the Scotland Yard official contends that is probably too harsh. "If Madeleine had just wandered off, which is what the general feeling was at first, there would be no need to seal the scene," he says. "Most people would think it over-the-top if you locked down the resort at that point." At the same time, though, there is widespread agreement that allowing Kate to walk around with Madeleine's special stuffed animal, Cuddle Cat, for weeks after the child's disappearance, and then wash it, destroyed any possibility of recovering DNA from the toy—potential evidence that conceivably could have been important.

Another key question, especially for those who know Kate and Gerry: Are the McCanns capable of killing their daughter, and if so, why would they do it? Forensic expert Baden points out that while parents are frequently the culprits when children are murdered, the circumstances are generally quite different in those cases. "That's where parents either don't want a baby or are drug addicts or teens," he says—a sharp contrast to the McCanns, who went through fertility treatments to conceive Madeleine as well as the twins. "It took them a long time to make their family," says friend Jon Corner, who is Amelie's godfather. "They were desperate to be parents, and when Madeleine came along, they were walking on air." Kate herself told one paper, "There she was, perfect. She was lovely, she had the most beautiful face. It made it even more special that she was a girl."

Susan Hubbard, the wife of the Anglican vicar in Praia da Luz, who got to know the McCanns as the tragedy unfolded, finds the notion that they could ever harm their children absurd. "They are the most unbelievably attentive parents," says Hubbard. "They slather up their kids with sunscreen—they practically have a sunscreen suit. They say, 'No, you can't have that, eat the fruit.' There's no doubt in my mind that they had nothing to do with this."

She adds that as their ordeal unfolded in Portugal, the McCanns tried to keep things as normal as possible for the twins, taking them swimming or to the zoo whenever they could. According to Philomena McCann, the couple had become concerned that their legal plight might prompt Portuguese officials to remove the twins from their care if they stayed in the country. "One of the main reasons for leaving Portugal was to protect Sean and Amelie from their social services," she says.

Where the legal case goes from here is unclear. They have publicly lamented that they have not been able to use any of the $2 million from Madeleine's Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned to pay their mounting legal expenses, though they have used it to pay some of their travel expenses in Europe. The McCanns have said that if charged they will return to Portugal. But their supporters are convinced that will only torment an already anguished family—and, more to the point, do nothing to solve the mystery of Madeleine. "It is so patently wrong," says Jon Corner. "It's heading down the cul-de-sac of nonsense and tragedy." Nearly everyone would agree he's at least half right.

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Kate McCann came into contact with 6 patients who died? It's making her sound like Dr Shipman! Surely not someone that any doctor would want to be compared with?

Didn't she say she took Maddie's cuddlecat to work with her which is how it got contaminated?

She then, presumably, gave the cadaver-contaminated toy back to 3 year old Maddie.

Then took the contaminated toy on holiday....along with her black and white checked cadaver-contaminated trousers.

Just in case an excuse for a dead body would be needed I suppose.

Forward planning....or just a stroke of luck?

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:Didn't she say she took Maddie's cuddlecat to work with her which is how it got contaminated?

She then, presumably, gave the cadaver-contaminated toy back to 3 year old Maddie.

Then took the contaminated toy on holiday....along with her black and white checked cadaver-contaminated trousers.

Just in case an excuse for a dead body would be needed I suppose.

Forward planning....or just a stroke of luck?

Being a parent myself I feel able to answer this (not being a GP having availability to cadavers I cannot comment). I never took my kids toys to work (as a sales engineer) and when I went on holiday I was not wearing the same clothes as at work - you do not do that - well I didn't. Surely that is odd? If not then I am a teapot (lol)

I can't see how Cuddle Cat could possibly have been taken to Kate McCann's work, if Maddie always carried it around with her.

Nor do I see how there could have been six cadavers lying around in a GPs surgery.

However, didn't this cadaver story come from one of the relatives (Gerry's sister?) so possibly it's something completely made up.

Hi all



Have not posted for ages, my health has been bit rubbish lately.



Reading this, I can't help but wonder at 'the police failed to realise Kate McCann had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday. Why would the police 'realise' anything like this, unless she told them? And it doesn't say she came into contact with six cadavers/corpses, it says six patients who died before she went on holiday. She could have visited them alive, and they could have died the day before she left the UK, not on her watch. I know it's pedantic, but it just does not say dead people.



I also love how lawyers for the lab were flying to Portugal to try to prevent the findings being made public and yet a source close to the lab says there were no mistakes and all will become clear when the files are made public. Which is it to be then? They want it all ways, they really do.

Nobody in their right mind would take the clothes they wore at work, especially being in contact with dead bodies, to their holiday. This is just absolute rubbish and another lie

poppydog wrote:Hi all



Have not posted for ages, my health has been bit rubbish lately.

I hope you are feeling better soon poppydog

Reading this, I can't help but wonder at 'the police failed to realise Kate McCann had come into contact with six patients who died before she went on holiday. Why would the police 'realise' anything like this, unless she told them? And it doesn't say she came into contact with six cadavers/corpses, it says six patients who died before she went on holiday. She could have visited them alive, and they could have died the day before she left the UK, not on her watch. I know it's pedantic, but it just does not say dead people.

Regarding the above - if Kate had visited the patients whilst they were alive then the dogs wouldn't have picked up on any cadaver scent, as that is caused by the breakdown of a body after death.

Mind it is a load of tosh anyway. She only worked around 1.5 days a week as a locum GP so to have come into contact with 6 dead persons (and took CC along as well) simply beggars belief.

Thanks Gillyspot.





That's what I was trying, and failing [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] to say. They are giving the impression that Kate came into contact with six cadavers without actually saying (or lying) that she dealt with six dead people, merely 'six patients who died'. Doesn't clarify when they died, or that she was present. Covering all basis, to cover any scent on her clothes. As if she would have worn the same clothes. As if a very part time gp deals with six corpses a week.



Odd they need to explain dog findings they deride at the same time.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I wonder what Katie was doing with those dead bodies, isn't that the pathologist's job, she was a GP.

Assuming they didn't arrive into the surgery in a dead state one can only surmise that these 6 unfortunate patients wandered into her surgery in a live state and somehow died. Oops. One maybe two is unfortunate, 6 is plain careless. Cuddlecat must have been called in to help her solve the problem. It takes some time for that odour to be released, what was she doing during this time? Regaling them with stories of her pink trainers and her exploits in IVF, her perfect husband and perfect children and her NZ wine, maybe they died of boredom. I am surprised that being a doctor & all she didn't even notice. That they were dead.

I have been looking in the PJ files regarding the DNA and cannot find 2 things.

Firstly the preliminary findings that caused the PJ to make Kate & Gerry Arguidos

Secondly the only sample tested that actually has the results show is for the Pillowcase.

Are the other samples (i.e. from 5A and the Scenic) tested available as well as seems iffy to me that they are not included.

Just one more thought.

In PJ files it says:

"2nd- With respect to autosomic STRs the genetic profiles of the following analysed samples matched with the reference sample indicated:

- hair root CEnv 7-51 recovered in the apartment (entrance hall-Env.7) matched with Gerald McCann, father of the victim.

- hair root PVT07 recovered in the vehicle (floor in front of rear seat Env.4) match with Robert James Queriol Eveleigh Murat. "

When did Murat travel in the McCanns car?
As discussed on another thread, this hair was NOT found in the McCann's renault scenic.

DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people and which appeared to have originated from at least two males who had contributed the majority of the DNA was obtained from cellular material obtained from the wet swab of the sofa (15B). in my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that Gerald McCann or Madeline McCann contributed DNA to this result. The DNA from this swab has not been subjected to LCN DNA profiling tests.

So if it wasnt Gerrys DNA , then what males has been on their sofa ?

During that stage of the investigation, the apartment was searched by members of the Crime Scene Team from the Laboratorio de Policia Cientifica [Police Forensic Science Laboratory] of the Portuguese Criminal Police, and samples were collected. Those samples, namely hair and a sperm stain, were sent to the National Institute of Legal Medicine (INML)to be analysed taking into account the DNA profile of the missing child-that had been provided-, as well as one of her parents and the ones of friends who belonged to a common group, and who went to the above mentioned tourist resort following previous arrangements among them.

Following the forensic tests carried out at INML, some DNA were obtained which linked profiles of some people within the group of friends, to the profiles of the child - s parents and even to the profiles of other people at the site. Until this moment, unidentified mitochondrial DNA profiles were also obtained. On the other hand, it was possible to define the autosomic STR profile of the sperm stain detected on the bedspread of one of the beds in the bedroom from where the child went missing. It has been already checked that there is no matching between the obtained genetic profile and the profile of the various samples of reference, which include the ones of the parents, friends, and others. Therefore, that DNA profile is now being forwarded to you, so that it can be inserted in your database, with the request that you check if it matches any of the genetic profiles from 3 British citizens who had stayed in the apartment in question, before the McCanns started to use that apartment on May 3rd, 2007.

They did find Madeleines blood in the apartment as I read it ?

Reference sample of blood

JRB/1 Madeleine McCann
From this sample was obtained a DNA reference sample that was different from those of her immediate family, described above. This DNA profile was the same as that obtained from possible spots of saliva existing on the pillowcase (SJM/1).


Atleast some blood was found that had to be Madeleien or Amelies..

Moa wrote:During that stage of the investigation, the apartment was searched by members of the Crime Scene Team from the Laboratorio de Policia Cientifica [Police Forensic Science Laboratory] of the Portuguese Criminal Police, and samples were collected. Those samples, namely hair and a sperm stain, were sent to the National Institute of Legal Medicine (INML)to be analysed taking into account the DNA profile of the missing child-that had been provided-, as well as one of her parents and the ones of friends who belonged to a common group, and who went to the above mentioned tourist resort following previous arrangements among them.

Following the forensic tests carried out at INML, some DNA were obtained which linked profiles of some people within the group of friends, to the profiles of the child - s parents and even to the profiles of other people at the site. Until this moment, unidentified mitochondrial DNA profiles were also obtained. On the other hand, it was possible to define the autosomic STR profile of the sperm stain detected on the bedspread of one of the beds in the bedroom from where the child went missing. It has been already checked that there is no matching between the obtained genetic profile and the profile of the various samples of reference, which include the ones of the parents, friends, and others. Therefore, that DNA profile is now being forwarded to you, so that it can be inserted in your database, with the request that you check if it matches any of the genetic profiles from 3 British citizens who had stayed in the apartment in question, before the McCanns started to use that apartment on May 3rd, 2007.

Moa, the sperm relates to a previous occupant of the McCann's apartment.
Have you tried looking on the McCannfiles and searching specific words, it might help clarify these items better for you.

Stella wrote:

Moa wrote:During that stage of the investigation, the apartment was searched by members of the Crime Scene Team from the Laboratorio de Policia Cientifica [Police Forensic Science Laboratory] of the Portuguese Criminal Police, and samples were collected. Those samples, namely hair and a sperm stain, were sent to the National Institute of Legal Medicine (INML)to be analysed taking into account the DNA profile of the missing child-that had been provided-, as well as one of her parents and the ones of friends who belonged to a common group, and who went to the above mentioned tourist resort following previous arrangements among them.

Following the forensic tests carried out at INML, some DNA were obtained which linked profiles of some people within the group of friends, to the profiles of the child - s parents and even to the profiles of other people at the site. Until this moment, unidentified mitochondrial DNA profiles were also obtained. On the other hand, it was possible to define the autosomic STR profile of the sperm stain detected on the bedspread of one of the beds in the bedroom from where the child went missing. It has been already checked that there is no matching between the obtained genetic profile and the profile of the various samples of reference, which include the ones of the parents, friends, and others. Therefore, that DNA profile is now being forwarded to you, so that it can be inserted in your database, with the request that you check if it matches any of the genetic profiles from 3 British citizens who had stayed in the apartment in question, before the McCanns started to use that apartment on May 3rd, 2007.

Moa, the sperm relates to a previous occupant of the McCann's apartment.
Have you tried looking on the McCannfiles and searching specific words, it might help clarify these items better for you.

Yeah I saw that, but did they conferm that it was from those who stayed there before? I would asume they got new bed sheetings and stuff :)
Just before your answer I did use my brain and found out I could search for words Made it all a lot easier, but thanks for the tip anyway

Gillyspot wrote:I have been looking in the PJ files regarding the DNA and cannot find 2 things.

Firstly the preliminary findings that caused the PJ to make Kate & Gerry Arguidos

Secondly the only sample tested that actually has the results show is for the Pillowcase.

Are the other samples (i.e. from 5A and the Scenic) tested available as well as seems iffy to me that they are not included.

Can any one find these things anywhere in the files?

Gillyspot wrote:

Gillyspot wrote:I have been looking in the PJ files regarding the DNA and cannot find 2 things.

Firstly the preliminary findings that caused the PJ to make Kate & Gerry Arguidos

Secondly the only sample tested that actually has the results show is for the Pillowcase.

Are the other samples (i.e. from 5A and the Scenic) tested available as well as seems iffy to me that they are not included.

Can any one find these things anywhere in the files?

Maybe this one? I guess you probably looked at it, but im trying since that was the closest I came to the pillowcase :)
B15 Crime Stain Sample Logging Form

Document reference FSS - TP - 234

Priory House

Date submitted: 22-05-2007

Sample type: Saliva (Misc)

Sample category : PI (uncharged)

Number of attempts: One only


Area description: Stain 1 pillowcase.

Comments: To be used as a surrogate reference sample.

( are many documents on this link showing the DNA for pillowcase, just scroll the site on links under here)
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Regardless of whether she incredibly took her work clothes on holiday, if Mrs Mc had been in touch with 6 corpses during her working hours it should be easy to establish. I would assume she was called out to a private house to certify a death so I think there should be a form signed by her for each patient. It's quite a number of deaths in a short period though, if as I haver read, she worked part time.

Second news article added to opening post of this thread, re the 6 dead bodies.