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Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by plebgate on 09.04.13 10:10

I am already fed up hearing about her on the news.

People really suffered under her government and Lamont (I think) was the Minister who famously said No pain, no gain.

Her government were mostly multimillionaires who knew nothing of what no pain, no gain felt like (and this latest lot are the same I think).

So the rest of the world recognise her as a tough, no nonsense leader. Who cares, they didn't suffer as many did here under her leadership.

I didn't see her cry when homes were being re-possessed but I did see her cry after her own party turned on her and she was getting into her chauffer driven car when leaving No. 10. It was her own her turned on her, now why would that be. Maybe because she was too much of an iron lady?

Most are all the same in my book.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Miraflores on 09.04.13 10:19

i agree plebgate: I am already absolutely sick of the eulogies about her.

I didn't like Scargill at all, but where is the UK coal industry now?

Council houses- sold off, but so often now rented out privately. Why is renting the same property from a private landlord so wonderful?

The present shower - Cameron, Osborne etc. - Well I hope UKIP slaughters them at the forthcoming elections.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by plebgate on 09.04.13 10:24

@Miraflores
I agree I can't stand Scargill. He lives in a mansion behind electron gates etc. etc.

All out for themselves on the pretext of caring and doing the best for the cannon fodder. It all makes me sick.

I think UKIP will do well but I could not vote for them. I can't vote for any of them.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by pennylane on 09.04.13 10:28

@Miraflores wrote:i agree plebgate: I am already absolutely sick of the eulogies about her.

I didn't like Scargill at all, but where is the UK coal industry now?

Council houses- sold off, but so often now rented out privately. Why is renting the same property from a private landlord so wonderful?

The present shower - Cameron, Osborne etc. - Well I hope UKIP slaughters them at the forthcoming elections.

I agree with your views plebgate and Miraflores, and ditto re UKIP too!

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Miraflores on 09.04.13 10:34

No, I couldn't vote for UKIP either. I'm in a 'none of the above' position re voting, but it still doesn't stop me wanting to see UKIP slaughter the Tories.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by aquila on 09.04.13 10:40

I have only ever voted conservative much to the disgust of my staunch socialist family. I shall not vote conservative in the next election. I shan't be voting labour or lib either so there's only one other alternative.

The next government will no doubt be another coalition. It will be interesting to see how many MP's defect to UKIP in the coming twelve months.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by pennylane on 09.04.13 10:45

The political system as it now stands is completely broken. The Establishment rules, and corruption abounds. There are no easy answers for sure, but it is time for a major overhaul....

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Woofer on 09.04.13 11:17

State Funeral for Mrs. Thatcher ! - I don`t belieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve it. Has the world gone mad?

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Guest on 09.04.13 11:23

Interesting blog from the Telegraph from 2011......

Snipped.....Only four prime ministers have been awarded the honour in the past 200 years –




Margaret Thatcher deserves every honour – apart from a state funeral




By Peter ObornePolitics

Last updated: December 22nd, 2011

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100125535/lady-thatcher-deserves-every-honour-%E2%80%93-apart-from-this-one/

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Guest on 09.04.13 11:24

Technically not a state funeral but it doesn't sound much different.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22079749

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Snifferdog on 09.04.13 11:38

It does not matter who you vote for and that goes for any country they ALL serve the interests of big business. These people do not care about the so called "common man in the street" ( as if they are special, the lying cheating murderers who only look after themselves and their own). So because Thatcher was female some can't bear to see her for what she was. Go read some alternative info on her not your mainstream brainwash. I still can't see the reason people go gaga over mere mortals and view them as some gift from God deserving fetlock tugging ad naseaum. If people refuse to wake up and smell the roses then they deserve what they get. Only problem others are affected by their bad judgement due to these people being voted in again time and time again. Getting back to Thatcher I will say it again: she must have known about Saville's Evil behaviour as she would have been suitably informed make no mistake. Ok rant over I shall leave this topic as its making me feel ill and is bad for my ulcer.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by aquila on 09.04.13 11:44

@Snifferdog wrote:It does not matter who you vote for and that goes for any country they ALL serve the interests of big business. These people do not care about the so called "common man in the street" ( as if they are special, the lying cheating murderers who only look after themselves and their own). So because Thatcher was female some can't bear to see her for what she was. Go read some alternative info on her not your mainstream brainwash. I still can't see the reason people go gaga over mere mortals and view them as some gift from God deserving fetlock tugging ad naseaum. If people refuse to wake up and smell the roses then they deserve what they get. Only problem others are affected by their bad judgement due to these people being voted in again time and time again. Getting back to Thatcher I will say it again: she must have known about Saville's Evil behaviour as she would have been suitably informed make no mistake. Ok rant over I shall leave this topic as its making me feel ill and is bad for my ulcer.

Zuma would give me an ulcer.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Guest on 09.04.13 12:13

Margaret Thatcher and the taboo of speaking ill of the dead


By Vanessa Barford BBC News Magazine



Margaret Thatcher's death was greeted by a torrent on Twitter and elsewhere. The battles that broke out between those showing loathing and those demanding respect shows the taboo over speaking ill of the dead is still powerful.

Yesterday a flood of tweets greeted the death of Margaret Thatcher.

One of the most curious strands in the early comments was tweeters predicting that there would soon be abusive tweets.

There soon were.

Some - including Respect MP George Galloway and comedian Mark Steel - tweeted references to Elvis Costello's song Tramp the Dirt Down. Released in 1989, the song imagines the prime minister's death and going to her grave where "we'll stand there laughing and tramp the dirt down".

It was seconds from the first tweet revealing the news to the first abusive tweet. Within minutes, news of her death was trending under at least three hashtags, and soon some that hinted at disrespect (#nostatefuneral and #nowthatchersdead).



News and humour website Buzzfeed noticed the outpouring of the vitriol was so widespread people were even making the same joke "ding dong the witch is dead", a reference to the song from The Wizard of Oz.

Others looked forward to parties they said would take place the same evening. Comedian Ross Noble regretted he was in Australia as he did not like to miss a good street party. Some called for milk parties. True to the tweets, last night saw parties in places like Glasgow and Brixton. There were reports of cheers among a minority at a National Union of Students conference.



More here too much to copy.....



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22066540

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by tigger on 09.04.13 12:23

@plebgate wrote:@Miraflores
I agree I can't stand Scargill. He lives in a mansion behind electron gates etc. etc.

All out for themselves on the pretext of caring and doing the best for the cannon fodder. It all makes me sick.

I think UKIP will do well but I could not vote for them. I can't vote for any of them.

Quite a lot of money earmarked for the miners went missing in Scargill's care. Remember that? It was never found. Doesn't surprise me in the least Scargill living in a mansion. Thatcher bought a large detached house, no stately home like the Blairs. She could have made millions on the lecture circuit - could have used her status to become very rich indeed. She gave all her PM income to charity and didn't shout it from the roof tops either. Unlike the free-loading Blairs.
But at least people could still afford to go to University then. Got Labour to thank for no money left for education. They didn't want an educated population, dangerously democratic. A dependent population keeps you in power. What Labour also stopped was any kind education in history - not teaching history is like living without a memory. No frame of reference - much easier to tell them what to think then.
The situation Britain finds itself in has not come about by accident imo. Not that I like the Conservatives or the wet Liberals at all. Cameron is a touchy/feely pleaser, Clegg has shown that he's unfit to run anything at all, Milliband still seems to be living in outer space where's he's come from imo. Back to the mothership soon I hope.
Three parties, - hmm I think I have a choice of about 17 - the last but one government took almost a year to be put together only to fall apart at the first hurdle.Everything sort of went on... Belgium's economy improved when all others deteriorated whilst they had no government at all for well over a year. Must mean something.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by russiandoll on 09.04.13 13:11

@The End Is Nigh wrote:Another thumbs-up Tigger.

Excellent fact-based counter to the inevitable Political free-for-all we've now got in this Topic, instead of the decent, respectful tribute to one of the most outstanding figures of our time that was intended.


Hold on there a minute.....the forum is about free speech and while I see negative remarks I do not see disrespect. The title of this thread is a simple factual one, that the woman has died. Whilst I find it unseemly to be drinking champagne and dancing in the streets, there is no indication that the thread is for tributes to be paid. People are entitled to give a negative opinion in response to the praise which is being heaped upon her.
I think the decision to give her a ceremonial funeral is very controversial, considering how divisive she was an clearly is in death, looking at the media coverage. The north of England was decimated during her years in power, the mining communities were destroyed and manufacturing was lost. It has never recovered. Agreed she had a huge impact, but imo a negative one.

The thing that angers me most , apart from her irritating use of the royal "we " is seeing her again quoting the words of St Francis when she arrived at Downing Street, where there is discord may we bring harmony.
What irony.
Hope I have made my negative views on the woman respectfully clear.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by joyce1938 on 09.04.13 13:22

I really dont think we need polatics serve much on this site,we dont need people against people ,its bad enough what we have to know and think about re a small child missing .joyce1938

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Woofer on 09.04.13 13:42

Joyce - its ok on this section as its "Have Your Say" and isn`t necessarily about Maddie. We`ve managed to discuss all sorts including religion, so as long as we don`t all descend into personal attacks, it should be ok.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by russiandoll on 09.04.13 13:42

@joyce1938 wrote:I really dont think we need polatics serve much on this site,we dont need people against people ,its bad enough what we have to know and think about re a small child missing .joyce1938

I agree Joyce, so no more from me on this subject.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by tigger on 09.04.13 15:29

@ Russiandoll. I believe the pluralis majestatis - the royal 'we' was in reference to becoming a grandmother? It may simply have been a slip of the tongue - whereas Tony Blair used the royal 'we' on the occasion of the N. Ireland treaty iirc and he wasn't talking about the cabinet.

I do agree this is not a tribute topic. I also agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion. As I had feedback from several other countries during the seventies - I know that Britain was seen as a joke.
It was also not only Labour that sunk the country, Heath did a pretty good job too, dreadful man. But this last Labour government takes the biscuit. The country will be paying for the PFI's (NOT exactly a Labour principle) in billions for many years to come if not another century.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jul/05/pfi-cost-300bn - just for general information.

So we're all on the same page I hope, just with different opinions. roses

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Lance De Boils on 09.04.13 16:36

I remember the Thatcher years very clearly. I completely opposed her politics (and still do). However, I have much respect for the lady as a political leader. She was probably the strongest leader this country has ever had. One does not have to agree with another to be able to respect them. Thatcher's policies were utterly counter to my beliefs and I personally feel she did far more harm than good to society as a whole.

I respect her family and friends' rights to mourn their personal loss, but absolutely do not think it is appropriate for her to have full military honours at her funeral (and most certainly NOT a state funeral.)

I do, however, think the celebratory parties are abhorrent. The fact that many (most) of those out on the streets last night are far too young to even have been around when Maggie Thatcher was PM really irritates me. Any excuse for yobbish behaviour, imo.

And whilst I'm on the subject, (not for much longer, mind!) I'm finding the media coverage totally over the top. No doubt her death will dominate the news for some time yet, what with the Queen being due to attend her huge funeral next week. Quite sick of hearing about it already.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Mike on 09.04.13 16:44

well said mr boils yes

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Snifferdog on 09.04.13 17:03

@aquila wrote:
@Snifferdog wrote:It does not matter who you vote for and that goes for any country they ALL serve the interests of big business. These people do not care about the so called "common man in the street" ( as if they are special, the lying cheating murderers who only look after themselves and their own). So because Thatcher was female some can't bear to see her for what she was. Go read some alternative info on her not your mainstream brainwash. I still can't see the reason people go gaga over mere mortals and view them as some gift from God deserving fetlock tugging ad naseaum. If people refuse to wake up and smell the roses then they deserve what they get. Only problem others are affected by their bad judgement due to these people being voted in again time and time again. Getting back to Thatcher I will say it again: she must have known about Saville's Evil behaviour as she would have been suitably informed make no mistake. Ok rant over I shall leave this topic as its making me feel ill and is bad for my ulcer.
I have to eat my words and say that I agree with you 100 percent Aquila. Also should have read. Forelock not fetlock in my post. Mustve been thinking of dear Camilla.

Zuma would give me an ulcer.

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BBC magazine article

Post by tigger on 10.04.13 6:43

I think this is an excellent and balanced article.


Viewpoint: What if Margaret Thatcher had never been?

Privatisation, finance boom, manufacturing decline, home ownership, union laws. The UK changed hugely in the 1980s. But how much of that would have happened if Margaret Thatcher had never taken office, asks historian Dominic Sandbrook.

In the summer of 1970, a week after their local MP had joined the cabinet for the first time, the Finchley Press sent a journalist to interview her.

Did she, he wondered, fancy a crack at becoming Britain's first woman prime minister? "No," Margaret Thatcher said emphatically. "There will not be a woman prime minister in my lifetime - the male population is too prejudiced."

We know now, of course, how wrong she was.

Indeed, the thought of Britain without Margaret Thatcher seems unimaginable today, especially for people of my generation. I was not yet five when she first walked into Downing Street as prime minister, and had just turned 16 when she resigned.

For my generation, whether you loved or loathed her, she was always there, a fact of life. But she was not merely the dominant political personality of her generation - she was a transcendent cultural figure who inspired more songs, books, plays and films than any other British leader since Oliver Cromwell.

As her biographer John Campbell astutely remarked, if you want to see her legacy, just look around.

Yet what was that legacy? Even now, more than 20 years after her tearful exit from No 10, Britain cannot agree. It is often said that she was the most divisive leader of the last century, which is almost certainly true.

Dominic Sandbrook is the author of several history books about Britain in the 1960s and 1970s, including White Heat, State Of Emergency and most recently, Seasons In The Sun

Yet her impact was much more complicated, even contradictory, than we often think. Margaret Thatcher called herself a conservative, but she led the most radical government in living memory.

She promised to restore law and order, yet she presided over the worst urban riots Britain had ever seen. She talked of bringing back Victorian values, yet her decade in office saw divorce, abortion, illegitimacy and drug-taking reach unprecedented heights.

She extolled thrift, hated profligacy and even paid for her own Downing Street ironing board, yet she presided over a gigantic credit boom and unleashed the power of casino capitalism. And although she talked of rolling back the frontiers of the state, the stark fact is that, in real terms, public spending rose in all but two of her years in office.

In the future, when historians look back at the Thatcher years, the familiar landmarks will surely loom largest - the savage battle over the economy in the early 1980s, the stunning victory in the Falklands in 1982, the bitter struggle with the miners in 1984-85, the deregulation of the City in 1986, the disastrous introduction of the poll tax, and the high drama of her resignation in 1990.


She was not merely the dominant political personality of her generation - she was a transcendent cultural figure”

Yet none of this makes sense without a bit of context. For when Margaret Thatcher won power in May 1979, it was against the backdrop of perhaps the gloomiest decade in modern British history.

Shorn of its empire, Britain now cut a very miserable figure on the world stage. For at least two decades we had been falling behind our rivals, and now the contrast was painful to see.

Britain's average inflation rate for the 1970s was 13%. West Germany's was just 5%. Our unemployment rate was 4%. Theirs was only 2%. Our major cities seemed shabby and seedy, our newspapers were full of strikes and walkouts, almost every week seemed to bring some new atrocity in Northern Ireland.

Over the course of the 1970s, two Prime Ministers, Edward Heath and James Callaghan, had been broken by the trade unions, while a third, Harold Wilson, descended into paranoia. Foreign papers talked of Britain as the Sick Man of Europe. Callaghan himself told his Labour colleagues: "If I were a young man, I would emigrate."

Margaret Thatcher's achievement, as many of her opponents now admit, was to blow away the stale winds of decline. At first, with unemployment soaring and the inner cities ablaze, she seemed certain to go down as a one-term fluke. But victory in the Falklands in 1982, when she risked her entire career on a desperate gamble to retake the islands from Argentina, changed her political image.

The lame duck had suddenly become Britannia incarnate - military success had won her the time she needed. And by the time she left office, Britain was unquestionably a more open, dynamic, entrepreneurial and colourful society than it had been in the 1970s.

Taxes were lower, strikes were down, productivity growth was much improved and far from fleeing Britain, as they had once threatened to do, foreign investors were now queuing to get in - a trend symbolised above all by Nissan's groundbreaking investment in the North East of England.

The City of London enjoyed a boom during the 1980s
There is no getting away, though, from the fact that this came at a very heavy cost. During the early 1980s, unemployment reached a record 3.6 million, though some estimates suggest that the real figure was much higher.

The real question, though, is whether this could realistically have been avoided. It is a myth that Thatcher single-handedly ended the era of full employment - in fact, unemployment had already hit 1.5 million under Callaghan.

In truth, Britain in the 1980s was always facing an immensely painful transition, partly because so many difficult decisions had been postponed for so long, but also because the stark reality of globalisation meant that major industries - notably carmaking, shipbuilding and coal-mining - were doomed even before she took power.

As a strident and often abrasive woman, Thatcher became the convenient scapegoat. But though her shock therapy never produced the nationwide renaissance for which she had hoped, she did not deserve all the blame.

Even if she had never been prime minister, many of the changes she came to represent, would almost certainly have happened anyway”

Indeed, whether you see it a land of opportunity or a selfish society, Thatcher's Britain was as much our creation as it was hers. Her supporters laud her as the woman who saved her country, her critics damn her as the woman who destroyed it. But historians will surely reach a more nuanced verdict.

Even if she had never been prime minister, many of the changes she came to represent, from privatisation and deregulation to the death of heavy industry and the rise in unemployment, would almost certainly have happened anyway, only more slowly.

With her characteristic blend of high principle, tactical opportunism and populist rhetoric, Thatcher came to embody the trends that transformed British life. Yet the old working-class world of busy factories, crowded pubs and cobbled streets was already dying, while a new Britain, more ambitious, more materialistic and more individualistic, was already emerging.

If she had fallen under a bus in 1978, would Britain today be so different? Her champions and her critics would answer with a firm yes. But I doubt it.

In the end, you are left with the woman herself. Indeed, the very fact that she was a woman may well have been the most remarkable thing about her.

It is astonishing to think that when Margaret Thatcher first joined the cabinet in 1970, the Wimpy hamburger chain still banned women from coming in late on their own on the bizarre grounds that only prostitutes would be out at that time of night.

Indeed, there is a supreme irony in the fact that Thatcher, who loathed feminism, came to embody the extraordinary expansion in the horizons of Britain's women, which was arguably the single biggest social change of the 20th Century.

And in several centuries' time, when the minutiae of the Falklands War or the poll tax have been forgotten, I suspect that what Britain will remember about Margaret Thatcher is the simple fact of her femininity.

Thatcher herself might not agree, but in the end, the interesting thing about the Iron Lady was not that she was made of iron. It was that she was a lady.

unquote

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by Guest on 10.04.13 7:29

@Lance De Boils wrote:I remember the Thatcher years very clearly. I completely opposed her politics (and still do). However, I have much respect for the lady as a political leader. She was probably the strongest leader this country has ever had. One does not have to agree with another to be able to respect them. Thatcher's policies were utterly counter to my beliefs and I personally feel she did far more harm than good to society as a whole.

I respect her family and friends' rights to mourn their personal loss, but absolutely do not think it is appropriate for her to have full military honours at her funeral (and most certainly NOT a state funeral.)

I do, however, think the celebratory parties are abhorrent. The fact that many (most) of those out on the streets last night are far too young to even have been around when Maggie Thatcher was PM really irritates me. Any excuse for yobbish behaviour, imo.

And whilst I'm on the subject, (not for much longer, mind!) I'm finding the media coverage totally over the top. No doubt her death will dominate the news for some time yet, what with the Queen being due to attend her huge funeral next week. Quite sick of hearing about it already.

I too remember the Thatcher years, if any of those young ones who are protesting had lived through them then they would really know the pain and hardship that was brought to bear by that woman. however maybe some of them did or they have heard it through their parents, communities are unforgiving, I just hope it is never forgoten. For those who don't remember, I would suggest they go to the archives of those years from the very begining then they may understand why a nation was divided, some may think what Thatcher did was riight that is their choice but it will be an informed choice.

A funeral with full military honours is beyond the pale, costing £10 million of tax payers money is unbelievable. It's been said in the MSM she didn't want to lie in state, she didn't want a flypast, the gall of the woman, that she thought, or whoever asked her thought she deserved these honours, it's absolutly appalling.

I agree with snifferdog she must have known about Savill and some of her other ministers, but will these written articals in alternative info come to the fore in the MSM I doubt it because the Queen is attending the funeral, covering all bases?

Thatcher once said the biggest influence in her life was her father, wonder why? Some interesting reading here

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/thatchers-dad-mayor-preacher-groper-1257249.html

That's my rant over.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher Dies After Stroke

Post by plebgate on 10.04.13 8:25

I have been reading about the article about Thatcher's father on Spivey. Surprised Thatcher had no comment at the time about the article.

Whilst I do not agree with the parties being held because of her death this is still, for the moment a free country and whether the supposed elite like it or not - you can fool the people some of the time but not all the time - I think the people are not fooled about anything these days but are just powerless to do anything about it all until we get our vote at the end of the latest 5 year carp we have had to put up with from this weak, pathetic lot. ~Will be the same after that, wait another 5 years to get rid of the next weak, pathetic lot.

What happened to Davy boy's promise of being able to get rid of any MPs if their constituents didn't think they were doing a good enough job.

Bottled it when he realised there probably wouldn't by an of the greedy, grabbing bunch left at Westminister.

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