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Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by jd on 13.09.12 0:38

The disgraceful thing is the deletion and amendment of statements either without permission of police officers or by the use of coercion.

This is so alarming. South Yorkshire police deliberately amending statements to suit their agenda!!! Police in the UK should never ever amend any statements for any reason. They amended them to make it look like they had no aggression towards the Liverpool fans wow

Leicestershire Police should be scrutinised next with their imo 'corrupted' dealings in the mccann case. They deliberately withheld the Gaspar statement to the PJ for 5 months and only sent it when GA was removed. Its just a tiny bit obvious why they withheld it until GA got removed (on the orders of gordon brown it seems), any honest police force would have sent straight away on 16th May 2007. I am convinced as much as I can be that gerry mccanns visit to LPP 3 days after the Gaspar statement was to alert him to it, then david payne left PDL 2 days later. And we know gerry mccann was at LPP station 3 days after the Gaspar statement as this is when he met clarence mitchell...at LPP station! (while they held the Gaspar statement)

I am so very happy for the city and victims of Liverpool. Its taken 23 long hard years to finally get justice, against a regime that always knew the truth and did everything in their powers to cover it up, and at the same time condemning them like the UK/mccanns/sun does with the Portuguese. Its sick and disgusting, but through the mccann case we always knew this is what is happening in this country. Hillsborough proves that justice can be served and Maddie deserves her justice even when at times it seems the odds are against it, keep fighting like the families of the Liverpool victims did and it will happen, especially if you believe in the truth of the mccann scam

Common links between Hillsborough and mccanns....corrupt police, corrupt government, the Sun comic newspaper




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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by listener on 13.09.12 1:20

@jd wrote: Hillsborough proves that justice can be served and Maddie deserves her justice even when at times it seems the odds are against it, keep fighting like the families of the Liverpool victims did and it will happen, especially if you believe in the truth of the mccann scam

Common links between Hillsborough and mccanns....corrupt police, corrupt government, the Sun comic newspaper


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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by tigger on 13.09.12 6:33

@russiandoll wrote: Hello again S/M,
The report has been well designed. There are links in every section to source material. Michael Mansfield QC has advised the families re the possible crimes and culpability of certain parties.
Sheffield City Council, in charge of issuing safety certificates.
Sheffield Wednesday F.C.
The Ambulance Service.
South Yorks Police.

A cumulative series of errors.
The sad thing is football crowds had such a poor reputation that crowd control and public order were the way to go.
The disgraceful thing is the deletion and amendment of statements either without permission of police officers or by the use of coercion.
The coroner's inquests were a flawed shambles. A pathologist telling the coroner, who accepted it, that all deaths would have occurred by 3.15 p.m.
It is impossible to grasp the enormity of what has happened without reference to this report. The documents speak for themselves.
It is huge in what it says about our society, read what it has taken for the truth to emerge and what was kept from the public for 23 years.
The dignity and determination of those families to find out what happened has been
truly inspirational.

Chapters 1 and 2 of the report are short, to the point and give an excellent description of why this was an event where, once certain decisions were taken, disaster was inevitable. It is a balanced report, but harrowing.

Brilliants posts RD and SM! The Sun's participation astounds me - even then I didn't read newspapers. Mostly got news from radio 4 which - as far as I know - didn't mention the lies printed by the Sun.
As jd says, one common factor in fanning the flames: Murdoch, in those days the Sun had an even larger readership than now.

And - as PeterMac said, it was an accident waiting to happen. He missed the worst accident ever from a stadium collapse:

Stadium disaster:
In 27 AD, an apparently cheaply built wooden amphitheatre, constructed by an entrepreneur named Atilus, collapsed in Fidenae resulting in by far the worst stadium disaster in history with as many as 20,000 dead and wounded out of the total audience of 50,000.The emperor Tiberius had banned gladiatoral games, it seems, and when the prohibition was lifted, the public had flocked to the earliest events, and so a large crowd was present when the stadium collapsed. The Roman Senate responded to the tragedy by banning people with a fortune of less than 400,000 sesterces from hosting gladiator shows, and also requiring that all amphitheatres to be built in the future be erected on a sound foundation, inspected and certified for soundness. The government also "banished" Atilius.
History lives.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 13.09.12 7:06

The best memorial to these poor souls who lost their lives on that harrowing day, in addition to improvements already made to mass events, is to further enhance spectator safety, and for the football clubs to employ very tough security staff in greater numbers to hoof out any people who are being too rowdy or aggressive. If nothing else, it would show that the lives lost meant enough to CONTINUE making positive changes in the future and create a better environment for the TRUE football fans.

Football clubs and players have got too used to stupid amounts of money turning a great team sport into a shamelessly vulgar affair. What sort of world do we live in when a man who kicks a ball around for a "job" earns more than a fire-fighter, paramedic, soldier or teacher? It's quite sick. The clubs should also work much harder on trying to remove the yob element from it's players who seem to spend their lives spitting and getting into trouble over their disgusting behaviour off the pitch. If they smartened up their image, it might put off a lot of the yob element who get plastered and act appallingly in the name of supporting their team.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 13.09.12 7:31

There is nothing I ever faced so menacing as a football crowd. The public image is of fathers with their sons bouncing along, sitting in nice seats in the stands, and having a cup of tea and a burger at half time, cheering their own team and applauding a good move by the opposition.
The reality ?
It was not until 1985 that it became an offence to be drunk in a designated Sports Ground. Pre-match warm up by the fans, who did not occupy the stands, but the terraces behind each goal, was to drink as much as they could. They then routinely fought each other on the way to the ground, and infamously in the 80s there were groups who had no intention ever of going to the match itself, merely to the pre-match fighting. By definition they had no tickets, but if they could then blag their way in they would. As the drink had its effect they would simply urinate where they stood, and one of the reports into one of those disasters pointed to the corrosion of the metal crush barriers from this cause, as they simply snapped or bent from the base. On a cold day the steam rising from a packed Kop End was a joy to behold !

And once in the ground the chanting began. We worry now about a bit of racism, but remember those chants ?
"We're going to kick your F*** heads in"
"You'll never walk again."
"We hate Nottingham Forest, We hate Birmingham too, and Chelsea !"
To the tune of Land of Hope and Glory !
And then the pitch invasions, and the fighting in the terraces. Ah, happy days. The Golden age of Association Football.
The end of a match involved running battles in the surrounding streets, with violence breaking out apparently at random as opposing fans walked into ambushes.
We developed the tactic of herding supporters from the train station in a huge crocodile down to the ground, and then back again, but as the Special Trains disappeared that became impossible.
On one occasion my Commander Mick Holford simply 'kettled" one whole train full for the duration of the match, and then sent them home again. The legal battles went on for years, particularly since it included some families who had come to Nottingham to do some pre-Christmas shopping !

So, as you will see from the statements of the Nottingham officers at the Leppings Lane turnstiles, on foot and mounted, the scenario was simply repeated. Those late arriving fans were tanked up, (though of course you cannot prove that because no one was arrested and tested) and very probably had no tickets (though of course you cannot prove that, for the same reason)
What is without doubt is that they were climbing over the wall, and crushing against the gate, and there was no way the officers could control them. Children were being crushed, and I believe I am right in saying that one of the radio messages to the Match control said "For Gods' sake open the gate. Someone is going to be killed."
So they did.
The problem comes in doing that before putting officers or stewards in place to try to spilt the crowd up, and therefore letting them all charge down the tunnel in the centre.

But remember that this had been more or less 'normal' practice at many ground where the turnstiles simply could not cope. There was in itself nothing unusual about doing it. And remember also that the time of kick off, which used to be a matter for the referee had become a matter controlled by the TV channels. The referee received a signal, nowadays by radio, then by flag, that the adverts and introductions had finished. "And so now we go live to the Cup Final where the match is just getting under weigh", and as the camera goes live, the referee blows the whistle. The option to delay became more and more difficult.
In any event there was no realistic way in which that information could be communicated to a crown of several thousand.

From that moment on no gate was ever again opened at the last minute to let people in. They tried it for a year or so in the East Stand at Nottingham, but eventually got the message.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by russiandoll on 13.09.12 9:34

quote PM : " So, as you will see from the statements of the Nottingham officers at the Leppings Lane turnstiles, on foot and mounted, the scenario was simply repeated. Those late arriving fans were tanked up, (though of course you cannot prove that because no one was arrested and tested) and very probably had no tickets (though of course you cannot prove that, for the same reason)

I have entered Notts. Constabulary in the search field and am getting a message no match, even though it is searching the pages of the report.......three times this result, so need to try again. Could you let me know what chapter these statements are in, please?

PM, are you disputing the panel's findings? It was made clear yesterday that :

South Yorkshire Police (SYP) altered 116 out of 164 statements from officers present at Hillsborough in a “strenuous attempt to deflect the blame onto the fans”. South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service was also found to have altered statements to play down its failings on the day;
Police carried out criminal record checks on several of the deceased in an attempt to “impugn their reputations”;
Senior officers privately discussed the “animalistic behaviour” of “drunken marauding fans”;
There was “no evidence of substance” to support the police account that alcohol and fan aggression played a part in the disaster;

The chief constable of SYP Peter Wright addressed a Police Federation meeting and told officers to “prepare a rock-solid story” and that “if anybody should be blamed, it should be the drunken and ticketless individuals”;
The infamous Sun newspaper story under the headline ‘The Truth’ was based on information given to a Sheffield news agency by four senior police officers.






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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 13.09.12 9:50

I think you have to enter Nottinghamshire Constabulary - in full.

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Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations.

Post by sammyc on 13.09.12 11:02

Well done PeterMac for giving an exact account of what English football was like in the 80's and 90's.

As a youngster (under 10) in the 70's, 80's and right up until the start of the 90's I went to see a certain famous football team play at home every other week at 3 pm. k.o, and night matches on a Tuesday or Wednesday. It is nothing like it is today. Thousands packed standing on the terraces and when your team scored, or even took a corner, everyone pushed forward and you had to just go with the rest of them or fall and get trampled on.

Drinking on the terraces was the norm, as was peeing where you stood, chants about killing the opposing fans, abusing the opposite team's players with real venom when they took a throw-in or corner, hearing the full time whistle and standing to one side whilst the hooligans scrambled out to get to the away fans, Police horses charging about, fans kicking lumps out of each other, coppers wading in with mere truncheons, Police dogs let loose, no CCTV to monitor the events etc etc. That's the way it was then.

And now it's all so different. Grounds are flooded with CCTV inside and out, all fans are watched once inside the ground and Football Intelligence Officers liaise with the stewards and uniformed Police to watch for potential flashpoints and troublecausers in the ground. High profile matches see the away fans monitored and escorted to and from the ground. Alcohol is available but you can't take it to your seat, the away fans are usuallly kept in for a while after the match, Police horses and dogs and a large presence of uniformed Police is the norm - Riot vans, riot cops, tear gas, batons, the Police have it largely under control nowadays but violence can and does still happen as it can never be completely stopped.

So, having attended and witnessed football matches for 4 decades I have seen the lot and watched it change in the meantime.

The events at Hillsborough that day were a combination of factors, not just bad Policing, but drunken ticketless fans ( and this type of fan still exists today) who were determined to get into the ground and nothing was going to stop them. That was the catalyst to the ensuing events. End of.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Nina on 13.09.12 11:13

I have never ever been to a grown up football match but followed our young grandson through his football career from under nines to his early teams and have to say that the behaviour of some parents and grandparents was terrible with instructions to their offspring to 'kick his f(%^ing head in' or words to that affect being the norm. One mum and grandmum were even banned from the touchline such was their venom.
And never saw any alcohol, so what is it about football that brings the worst out in people?

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by russiandoll on 13.09.12 13:39

PM, thank you, I have tried entering as advised, in full, 5 times, also searched via the names of the police officers mentioned in this topic, still no joy. I am going to read the whole report so will come across them eventually.

quote sammyc : " The events at Hillsborough that day were a combination of factors, not just bad Policing, but drunken ticketless fans ( and this type of fan still exists today) who were determined to get into the ground and nothing was going to stop them. That was the catalyst to the ensuing events. End of "

END OF? The report published yesterday was END OF! you talk about drunken ticketless fans........are you disagreeing with the definitive findings of the independent panel, which is now the documented statement of the truth of what happened? I have quoted from the report....are you disputing it?

I have very strong feelings about truth and justice, the aims of this forum.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 13.09.12 17:11

13 September 2012 Last updated at 16:45




Hillsborough: South Yorkshire Police consider IPCC referral




13 September 2012 Last updated at 16:45

Hillsborough: South Yorkshire Police consider IPCC referral
The Hillsborough Independent Panel found statements had been altered by police
Continue reading the main story
South Yorkshire Police is reopening investigations into its conduct over the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19592455

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Spaniel on 13.09.12 17:28

What PeterMac said about the drinking culture and the crocodile escorting is so true.

I worked a shop on Arkwright St, between 1975 to 1977, which was a main route for the tanked up crowds from the Nottingham train station to the Notts Forest ground.

I remember a uniformed officer, no idea of his rank, but with loads of metal decorating him and a silver topped cane, standing inside my door to protect me.

I believe the violence was contained through all seating?

I take it that no one else here saw the live pictures from Hillsborough that day? If not, thank God you didn't.

I don't know why I did, as I cannot stand football. Why on Earth, did they keep the cameras rolling? It was so graphic. Close ups of people's faces being pressed against mesh fencing and dying before our eyes. I'll never forget that.

Imagine then their families seeing it. Dreadfull.

There was talk at one point of familes suing over that coverage and I understand their distress as bad enough, even for us not connected.

Like all disasters, it strikes our hearts, but everyday someone loses a loved one. Whether that be a child, parent or whoever, the fact is, a loss is a loss.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Newintown on 13.09.12 17:33

@russiandoll wrote: PM, thank you, I have tried entering as advised, in full, 5 times, also searched via the names of the police officers mentioned in this topic, still no joy. I am going to read the whole report so will come across them eventually.

quote sammyc : " The events at Hillsborough that day were a combination of factors, not just bad Policing, but drunken ticketless fans ( and this type of fan still exists today) who were determined to get into the ground and nothing was going to stop them. That was the catalyst to the ensuing events. End of "

END OF? The report published yesterday was END OF! you talk about drunken ticketless fans........are you disagreeing with the definitive findings of the independent panel, which is now the documented statement of the truth of what happened? I have quoted from the report....are you disputing it?

I have very strong feelings about truth and justice, the aims of this forum.

I may be shot down in flames as you have with sammyc but I could never figure out why the fans were viewed as "blameless", when I remember seeing the scenes at the begining of the Hillsborough football match, you would think that all the fans were angels when in fact the opposite was happening. As far as I can remember the gates were being closed when the fans outside all surged forwards to push themselves in, then they all went running in different directions. I think I also remembered fans climbing over the gates or the walls to get in. The Police didn't seem to have any chance of containing them.

I know it's along time ago but it has always stuck in my mind.

Perhaps sammyc was out of order saying "End of" but we're all entitled to our opinion. Do you really believe there were no drunk fans or fans acting as "thugs" on the day and they were all polite and "lady like".

Just because the report said what it said I do think that a lot of fans were also to blame by their behaviour. Of course nobody is going to blame the fans now after all the outrage.

I know some of the truth was twisted by the ambulance services etc, but as it such a huge disaster and they were probably overwhelmed by what was happening, they knew their jobs were on the line for something they couldn't handle.

I haven't read the report but I'm going by what I remember at the time and being shocked by what was happening.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by russiandoll on 13.09.12 17:49

Newintown,
I think it is a little unfair to say that I shot someone down in flames [ rather dramatic] because I objected strongly but politely to what I read. I have re-read my post and I was certainly firm but not over the top. I did not mean to offend.
I objected to the finality of the that the fans were somehow culpable for the deaths , then END OF because that totally contradicts the report.
We are on a forum because we believe in truth and justice, an independent panel took two and a half years to review documentation that for the first time in 23 years had been provided and reached the unequivical conclusion that fans were in no way responsible for the deaths.
There has never been a comment as far as I know that the fans were all ladylike as you sarcastically put it, considering most were male, but I get your point. Every football game has late arrivals, fans who have had a drink, this match would not have been any different. The point made by the panel was that this played no part in the deaths.
I was and am stunned to read on this forum, which is about truth and justice, a debate over this issue of the fans, which has been decided and accepted .
I think it is offensive to the families that I am reading stuff like this. I asked a simple question...are people posting these comments rejecting the panel's findings?

btw have you read any of the report? It is shocking.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by tigger on 13.09.12 17:51

For balance I'm copying a post here from MM by Lioned. posted yesterday. As he was a steward at such games, it is good to have an 'inside' view.

Lioned wrote:

As a very 'active' football fan during that period i can tell you that this was an accident waiting to happen,yes with the benefit of hindsight now.
Let us not forget the Ibrox disaster in 1971 when 71 fans died when crushed on the crumbling stairs behind the ground,Also the Bradford fire in 1985 when 56 died in a decrepid and atrociously maintained wooden stand.
Also those in Liverpool in particular should not forget the 39 Italians who died at the structurally dangerous Heysal stadium in 1985 as a result of the rioting Liverpool fans.
I was in the crowd at Luton for the infamous riot with Millwall fans in 1985 when the circumstances that i witnessed were almost identical to what happened in Hillsborough when far too many Millwall fans were hearded into a terrace nowhere near big enough to accommodate them all,kids at the front were getting crushed and the Police wouldn't let them escape onto the pitch,eventually the adults behind took the law into their own hands and stormed onto the pitch and attacked the police.The difference that night was there were no fences to keep us penned in,that is the only reason why there were no fatalities.That night the fans got all the blame despite there being children battered and bruised.
The 70's and 80's were the worst time for football violence,it was a culture that developed and the police and authorities retaliated by treating all fans with utter contempt,though some may have deserved it.Clubs and their Chairmen neglected to modernise their stadia despite the warning signs,no doubt mainly due to the cost and that fans would put up with this kind of treatment.
On the contrary,and because of the deteriorating behaviour of the fans/hooligans many clubs had to put up fences to stop pitch invasions because of heavy penalties applied by the Football League for such events.
The ingredients that caused the Hillsborough disaster were there for all to see years before it happened,some may not like to hear it but the fans played a part in that,though cameron may play to the gallery and exonerate them it is a sad fact.
It is good that the truth regarding the 'cover ups' are now clear but i remain confused as to what the people of Liverpool consider to be justice as i doubt that the finger of blame can be pointed at any particular individual.Accidents happen,but always for a reason,seeking further redress or revenge may serve no purpose now.
(following on with next post:)

I was a steward at Millwall in the early eighties,a very young one i should add,i was a student and had little money so it was a way of getting in to see the game for free plus i got paid a couple of quid,some weeks i worked the turnstiles but that was mostly controlled by the older men as it was quite lucrative taking cash from those who climbed over the turnstiles with their kids.I could pretty much guess the 'gate' from experience but the official attendance was always much less during that period as i am sure lots got in for nothing and the Chairman would fix the crowd to pay less tax (so was the rumour at the time).
The duty of a steward was to patrol the sides of the ground to stop people climbing in over the wall.[....]
I witnessed many quite brutal attacks by the Police which for the most part was reciprocated by the fans.Travelling to away games was a very risky business.If a game was all ticket then many fans would still travel with the hope/intention of getting in over the gates.I have seen the gates pushed over at a number of grounds.

This was the culture at the time and often it was a game of cat and mouse with the police and opposing fans.

Just giving an insight into the behaviour of some fans and Police at that time.I am pretty sure that would be the atmosphere prevailing outside the ground at Hillsborough.It may be unfair to say many fans were drunk,infact i think it was more a case of quite a lot arriving late due to traffic congestion or so i think i have read somewhere,much of the rush to get in may have been due to that and the eagerness not to miss the kick off.Fans pushing their way in at the back caused the crush at the front,but they were not to know what was going on at the front and it is got to be the responsibility of the police and stewards to control the crowds as no one would expect football fans to form an orderly queue.

I do wish they would stop refering to the people of Liverpool deserving justice,do not forget that only a few responsible for the deaths at Heysal ever served time for killing 39 Italians and they were treated leniently and many others have kept quiet about their involvement in that.It is the relatives and friends of the injured and dead who need answers,not the entire City, that is only right and proper,i still dont know how that fits with 'justice' unless revenge or compensation is the aim !
unquote


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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by russiandoll on 13.09.12 18:05

Thanks for that post Tigger.

quote fro MM forum : "I do wish they would stop refering to the people of Liverpool deserving justice,do not forget that only a few responsible for the deaths at Heysal ever served time for killing 39 Italians and they were treated leniently and many others have kept quiet about their involvement in that. It is the relatives and friends of the injured and dead who need answers,not the entire City, that is only right and proper,i still dont know how that fits with 'justice' unless revenge or compensation is the aim ! "

I saw all the coverage yesterday and only heard what I always have heard...justice for the 96. Reference to the city is always wanting the whingeing Scouser/ self-pity city stuff to stop, it is very unfair.
I have never heard the voices of the campaign talk about revenge or compensation but about accountability.

I can only recommend those who have certain memories to read the report. Look at the gradient of the tunnel , read about the layout of the pens, that side pens had space in them. It is explained in a very straightforward fashion, just how the momentum created caused the crush once the fateful gate had been opened.
The crime is in the COVER UP. Paid for by the British taxpayer, who paid the legal fees of the police.
No apologies, I am blazing with anger at the depth the corruption.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by tigger on 13.09.12 18:09

This is also a pertinent observation from Lioned's posts above:

The 70's and 80's were the worst time for football violence,it was a culture that developed and the police and authorities retaliated by treating all fans with utter contempt,though some may have deserved it.Clubs and their Chairmen neglected to modernise their stadia despite the warning signs,no doubt mainly due to the cost and that fans would put up with this kind of treatment.
On the contrary,and because of the deteriorating behaviour of the fans/hooligans many clubs had to put up fences to stop pitch invasions because of heavy penalties applied by the Football League for such events.

unquote

RD wrote:

The crime is in the COVER UP. Paid for by the British taxpayer, who paid the legal fees of the police.
No apologies, I am blazing with anger at the depth the corruption.
unquote

That's it in a nutshell. The Cover up to save their own skins/promotions/mates in the freemasons?/football managers?

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Newintown on 13.09.12 18:15

@russiandoll wrote:Newintown,
I think it is a little unfair to say that I shot someone down in flames [ rather dramatic] because I objected strongly but politely to what I read. I have re-read my post and I was certainly firm but not over the top. I did not mean to offend.
I objected to the finality of the that the fans were somehow culpable for the deaths , then END OF because that totally contradicts the report.
We are on a forum because we believe in truth and justice, an independent panel took two and a half years to review documentation that for the first time in 23 years had been provided and reached the unequivical conclusion that fans were in no way responsible for the deaths.
There has never been a comment as far as I know that the fans were all ladylike as you sarcastically put it, considering most were male, but I get your point. Every football game has late arrivals, fans who have had a drink, this match would not have been any different. The point made by the panel was that this played no part in the deaths.
I was and am stunned to read on this forum, which is about truth and justice, a debate over this issue of the fans, which has been decided and accepted .
I think it is offensive to the families that I am reading stuff like this. I asked a simple question...are people posting these comments rejecting the panel's findings?

btw have you read any of the report? It is shocking.

I wasn't being sarcastic in my comment. You obviously don't believe that there are drunk fans at a football match or those who have been in the pub for hours before the start of a match or any fans causing trouble and ready for a fight with anyone? Did you actually see any of the film footage of hundreds of fans outside the Hillsborough stadium all milling around trying to get through the gates together, the police were completely overwhelmed by so many of them.

I did say I haven't read the report, no doubt it is shocking, I was going by what I saw with my own eyes at the time the events were unfolding in and outside the stadium. I have an opinion, the panel have their own opinion.

As Lioned said in a previous message -

The 70's and 80's were the worst time for football violence,it was a culture that developed and the police and authorities retaliated by treating all fans with utter contempt,though some may have deserved it.Clubs and their Chairmen neglected to modernise their stadia despite the warning signs,no doubt mainly due to the cost and that fans would put up with this kind of treatment.
On the contrary,and because of the deteriorating behaviour of the fans/hooligans many clubs had to put up fences to stop pitch invasions because of heavy penalties applied by the Football League for such events.
The ingredients that caused the Hillsborough disaster were there for all to see years before it happened,some may not like to hear it but the fans played a part in that,though cameron may play to the gallery and exonerate them it is a sad fact.
It is good that the truth regarding the 'cover ups' are now clear but i remain confused as to what the people of Liverpool consider to be justice as i doubt that the finger of blame can be pointed at any particular individual.Accidents happen,but always for a reason,seeking further redress or revenge may serve no purpose now.

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Laurie Levenson, Quoted in the Guardian ........

"Never trust an eyewitness whose memory gets better over time"


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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by russiandoll on 13.09.12 18:29

I have seen both late arrivals and drunken fans at football matches. I am a woman of the world, not some naive fool ! How was your comment about ladylike behaviour when referring to predominantly male fans not sarcastic? You could have said well-behaved, you didn't.
Yes I did see it unfold. Overwhelmed is the right word. No one knew what action to take to avoid the tragedy. That is what has been covered up, that is the crime, and the orchestrated tactics which began straight away to divert from the truth is what is unforgiveable imo.

Please read the report. It is firm in its conclusions. There is no reference to all fans behaving well. It states that fans being drunk did not create or contribute to the disaster.
I am not going to argue about this, people can believe what they want. Only the report will convince you of the truth.
Would you kindly answer my question.....do you accept the report or not?

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             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Newintown on 13.09.12 18:36

@russiandoll wrote: I have seen both late arrivals and drunken fans at football matches. I am a woman of the world, not some naive fool ! How was your comment about ladylike behaviour when referring to predominantly male fans not sarcastic? You could have said well-behaved, you didn't.
Yes I did see it unfold. Overwhelmed is the right word. No one knew what action to take to avoid the tragedy. That is what has been covered up, that is the crime, and the orchestrated tactics which began straight away to divert from the truth is what is unforgiveable imo.

Please read the report. It is firm in its conclusions. There is no reference to all fans behaving well. It states that fans being drunk did not create or contribute to the disaster.
I am not going to argue about this, people can believe what they want. Only the report will convince you of the truth.
Would you kindly answer my question.....do you accept the report or not?

No I haven't read it. I saw what I saw on the day, there were hundreds of fans who were desperately trying to help people who were in a terrible situation, there were also hundreds of fans who were acting like thugs.

Please stop trying to force your opinions on me. Why should I answer your question, are you the thought police?

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by russiandoll on 13.09.12 18:45

My last post on this topic for the sake of peace and quiet.
I am neither the thought police nor do I desire to force my opinions on you. I will not let some of what you have said go unchallenged.
I simply do not think your opinions valid unless you take some time to read at least some of THE FACTS.
There is no evidence of hundreds of fans acting like thugs The fans have been exonerated, the smears proven to be lies and the campaigners vindicated. Those are facts. So no discussion is possible with you.
I suggest you and I give each other a wide berth on here, that way there will not be any slanging matches.
And if you have time, read the Hillsborough book by Prof Phil Scraton who was on the panel.

thanks btw Peter Mac, have read some and will read more.

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             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Newintown on 13.09.12 18:51

@russiandoll wrote: My last post on this topic for the sake of peace and quiet.
I am neither the thought police nor do I desire to force my opinions on you.
I simply do not think your opinions valid unless you take some time to read at least some of THE FACTS.
There is no evidence of hundreds of fans acting like thugs The fans have been exonerated, the smears proven to be lies and the campaigners vindicated. Those are facts. So no discussion is possible with you.
I suggest you and I give each other a wide berth on here, that way there will not be any slanging matches.

It must have been one of the only football matches EVER that had no fans who were drunk or who were not acting like thugs. Strange that, don't you think?

ETA: The only thing I agree with you on is that we should put this to rest and concentrate on finding out what happened to Madeleine.

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