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Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by russiandoll on 08.09.12 16:19

I like the way the prosecutor is managing the media,most of whom have stated as fact that the older woman was the grandmother, despite his having clearly said more than once that her relationship to the family had not been established yet and that the younger girl only mentioned a holiday with her parents.
He is rightly keeping his cards close to his chest, there are things the public have no need to know, so why should he indulge media demands for certain information which could well harm the investigation as his colleague Lt Colonel police officer stated.
He would not be drawn on where the 4 year old was being treated, stupid reporters for asking.......she is under police guard so why the hell would he divulge that to the public. He was nice enough to apologise for a rather dry,sarcastic reply to a reporter, who asked had the cyclist asked the girl for details of what had happened. Given her grave head injuries, I imagine the prosecutor was exasperated at the thought that the cyclist had done anything ,given what he found, but attend to her and call the emergency services. I was not offended that he told the reporter " she was not texting her friends" when the British cyclist came across the scene. The press must get on their nerves.

As for the scenario with the older girl, when she is sufficiently well she will have gentle probing he said and he hopes for some evidence from her as she is their main witness.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by PeterMac on 08.09.12 16:35

@russiandoll wrote:SNIP The press must get on their nerves.
They certainly do. I though his handling of the idiot questions was very good. Why journalists feel the need to ask questions which are either very stupid, or which they know perfectly well the officer cannot answer I do not know. A decent crime corespondent will understand the conventions, and not try to push too hard.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 08.09.12 17:15

I just read some French papers on the net. Understand that autopsy showed ALL 4 victims were shot with TWO bullets in the head. This must be a professional hit IMO. After the first shot none of them will stay immobile, least the cyclist who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. TWO bullets in the HEAD each!

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by tigger on 08.09.12 20:08

This is interesting - the murder inquiry re the murders nr. Annecy - the Home office can't have taken more than 24 hours to organise the rogatory inquiry. As opposed to 6 months and then not allowing the actual arguidos to be interviewed again in the McCann case.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by PeterMac on 09.09.12 8:24

This morning Martin Brunt is going on at length about the mobile phones found in the car. He is telling the world how important they will be, to track calls they made in the last days, and calls they received, and so on and on. Spelling it all out for the public.
Why was he so silent about the TM erasing of all their records instead of searching ?
Is there a way we can contact him, publicly, to ask.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by uppatoffee on 09.09.12 9:10

You could contact him via twitter @skymartinbrunt.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by PeterMac on 09.09.12 9:38

I have no idea how to do that. Sorry.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by tigger on 09.09.12 9:41

This looks to me like a public, very public execution. Pour encourager les autres - this is what happens when you don't do as we tell you.
It looks like professional hit men too imo, an accident could have been arranged if this was pure revenge and would have been enough to keep 'others' in line as they would understand the 'accident' could happen to them too.

This very public execution indicates that the perpetrator is moving in an environment where such actions are not unknown. One could read about this and if it had happened in say Mexico or Colombia - it wouldn't even be front page news.

I don't envy the police, I understand the French police have a semi military unit - I once read an interview which mentioned a case in Marseille. A terrorist had been poisoning food and drinks in supermarkets. A few people had died. The terrorist phoned the police with his demands. He gave sufficient information to make sure he was the poisoner, French police said that as they were 'military' men on both sides, they should have a talk, man to man.
A rendez-vous was arranged, the police shot him. No more poisoning cases were reported, man was identified as known terrorist activist and the tax payer was saved a lot of money...


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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by PeterMac on 10.09.12 10:04

Very odd goings on. 1 km exclusion zone round the house,in Claygate, and armed police officers at the scene.
What have they found ?
Also now confirmed the older woman was the maternal grandmother.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 10.09.12 10:14

It's all very strange - the younger girl said that she didn't know who the other woman was but I suppose that's understandable in view of what she has gone through. Maybe she rarely saw her grandmother.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-wait-alps-shooting-girl-050925399.html

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 10.09.12 10:30

bn

A bomb disposal unit has arrived at the house of a British family found shot dead in the French Alps.

http://news.sky.com/

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 10.09.12 11:04

A bomb disposal unit has arrived at the house of a British family found shot dead in the French Alps.

Police have cordoned off two roads outside Saad al Hilli's home in Claygate, Surrey, due to "concerns" about items found in the house.

Sky's Ashish Joshi, at the scene, said a Perspex sheet has also been put up outside the front door.

Surrey Police said in a statement: "We can confirm that due to concerns around items found at the address ... officers have extended the cordon surrounding the property.

"Neighbours in the immediate area are being temporarily evacuated."

Meanwhile, the elderly woman shot dead in the mystery gun attack in France was the maternal grandmother, French police have confirmed.

The unnamed Swedish woman was found dead in Mr al Hilli's bullet-riddled BMW in Chevaline, near Lake Annecy, on Wednesday afternoon. Next to her in the back was the body of her 47-year-old daughter Iqbal.
Saad al Hilli was shot dead in the French Alps
Slumped over the front wheel was 50-year-old Mr al Hilli. His two daughters, who go to school in Claygate, survived the attack.

Sylvain Mollier, 45, a French cyclist who apparently stumbled across the bloodshed, was also shot dead.

Police had been struggling to identify the elderly woman, and could only confirm she held a Swedish passport.

But local prosecutor Eric Maillaud confirmed today: "Evidence gathered in Britain has enabled us to establish that the woman was the maternal grandmother."

Officers are waiting to question her seven-year-old granddaughter Zainab, seen as the key witness to the shooting.

She was beaten around the head and shot in the shoulder. She remains heavily sedated in a French hospital after being brought out of a medically-induced coma on Sunday.
Police have cordoned off two roads outside the home
Mr Maillaud said: "The little girl has come out of the artificial coma but she is under sedation and her speech is not yet audible. She is in a better state of health now."

But even as she emerged from the coma, it was clear it could be some time before she could be interviewed.

"It is out of the question to go and interview her in any sort of rushed way. She is extremely traumatised. Only the doctors have the ability to say (when she can be interviewed) and until I get the green light I will do nothing," he added.

Her younger sister, four-year-old Zeena, has returned to the UK. She hid under her mother's body and was unhurt in the attack.
The British family were found dead inside a bullet-riddled BMW
Swiss and Italian police are helping in the murder hunt.

Police officer Benoit Vinneman told reporters that the crime scene is being re-examined, and that it would be wrong to focus on the theory of an "ordered execution".

"Is this the work of a crazy person? Was the family the real target? Only work based on complete information can help us to see things clearly," he said.

Two mobile phones discovered in the car are being examined by detectives.

A close friend of Mr al Hilli told Sky that the father of two had been worried about security and had hid important documents before he left for France on holiday.

http://news.sky.com/story/983064/alps-shooting-bomb-unit-at-family-home

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 10.09.12 13:38

It's now reported that the bomb squad has gone and the cordon removed so we can assume that nothing untoward was found.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 10.09.12 13:49

@PeterMac wrote:This morning Martin Brunt is going on at length about the mobile phones found in the car. He is telling the world how important they will be, to track calls they made in the last days, and calls they received, and so on and on. Spelling it all out for the public.
Why was he so silent about the TM erasing of all their records instead of searching ?
Is there a way we can contact him, publicly, to ask.

I'd a look on the Sky website, didn't find his email addy, but found that contacts there are listed in this format 'name.familyname@bskyb.com.
As all big corporations require staff to use standardized format it may be worth trying martin.brunt@bskyb.com.
Otherwise, maybe on departmental level using same format it could be: martin.brunt@skynews.com.

Just thinking.........


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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 10.09.12 15:30

A close friend of Mr al Hilli told Sky that the father of two had been worried about security and had hid important documents before he left for France on holiday.

To have expressed that fear, maybe Mr al Hilli was involved in something sensitive and was left in a compromised situation, or he'd an unresolved feud with someone prior to the holiday.

What documents could be so important that he feared that them stolen? Personal papers or work papers I wonder.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by jd on 11.09.12 3:20

http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/saad-al-hilli-chevaline-assassination.html

SAAD AL-HILLI; CHEVALINE ASSASSINATION

"Over two dozen Marconi and Plessey Defence Systems experts died in mysterious circumstances in the 1980's."

Dead Scientists And Microbiologists

Murdered Briton Saad Al-Hilli, who was employed by Surrey Satellites Technology Limited (SSTL) near Guildford, was working on a secret contract for one of Europe's biggest defence companies.

The Mail on Sunday reveals that Al-Hilli was part of a team involved in a project linked to European Aeronautic Defence and Space (EADS) - a pan-European defence giant whose clients include NASA, the European Space Agency, the UK government, Russia and China.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200388/Did-French-Alps-murder-victims-secret-work-space-satellite-contract-make-prime-assassination-target.html#ixzz25wr6OYX1

"According to an ex-colleague at the Rutherford lab in Didcot, Oxon, Saad worked on a giant particle accelerator which can make radioactive material.

"The friend, who spoke to Saad shortly before his holiday, said: 'He was extremely bright and hardworking. He came into Rutherford for a work experience placement when he was studying a degree at Kingston University in 1984, and he regularly came back in the summers.'"

Nuclear link to French Alps massacre: Murdered Saad al-Hilli worked at top-secret B http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-nuclear-link-1314562

Sylvain Mollier is the cyclist who was also shot dead in the Chevaline massacre.

He is an employee of the company Crezus which supplies equipment to nuclear power plants.

"Mr. Mollier worked for CEZUS, a subsidiary of AREVA, the global leader in the market for zirconium, the metal used, among other things, for nuclear fuel cladding.

"CEZUS's operations are distributed over six sites. One site in Ugine handles production of ingots and transformation of zirconium, titanium, tantalum, and hafnium into semi-finished products. Cezus also have an R&D site in Ugine."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2199670/Saad-Al-Hilli-shooting-French-Alps-Was-hitman-Each-British-victims-shot-TWICE-cyclist-witness-FIVE-times.html#ixzz25xCHhSph

The British cyclist who came across the scene was ex-RAF.

"Not much media report or comment on the strange coincidence on the 'ex-RAF pilot and officer' who was first on the scene.

"Very strange as there cannot be many ex-RAF officers who have houses in both the UK and Annecy and spend their time between the two.

"While the French police are hiding his identity I am surprised the British media have not figured out who he is or been informed by someone who has."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2199670/Saad-Al-Hilli-shooting-French-Alps-Was-hitman-Each-British-victims-shot-TWICE-cyclist-witness-FIVE-times.html#ixzz25xBrSnm5

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 11.09.12 6:41

The British cyclist who came across the scene was ex-RAF.

Coincidence?

It was reported Mr Al Hilli was under security surveillance.
Could it be that he'd a rendezvous with the French cyclist work related.
It was reported the car park is isolated in a off tourist track with nothing there bearing a few chalets so why did Al Hilli and French cyclist go up there, and for that matter why did Brit ex RAF?

Could this be Secret Services execution and ex RAF was part of the operation team?
Was he sent to the place of rendezvous so that the children can be rescued quickly.
Otherwise can anyone imagine the fate of the children if left stranded there for days undiscovered from that isolated place where there's v. little or no human traffic for days.
I

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by bobbin on 11.09.12 9:34

@aiyoyo wrote:The British cyclist who came across the scene was ex-RAF.

Coincidence?

It was reported Mr Al Hilli was under security surveillance.
Could it be that he'd a rendezvous with the French cyclist work related.
It was reported the car park is isolated in a off tourist track with nothing there bearing a few chalets so why did Al Hilli and French cyclist go up there, and for that matter why did Brit ex RAF?

Could this be Secret Services execution and ex RAF was part of the operation team?
Was he sent to the place of rendezvous so that the children can be rescued quickly.
Otherwise can anyone imagine the fate of the children if left stranded there for days undiscovered from that isolated place where there's v. little or no human traffic for days.
I
@aiyoyo wrote:The British cyclist who came across the scene was ex-RAF.

Coincidence?

It was reported Mr Al Hilli was under security surveillance.
Could it be that he'd a rendezvous with the French cyclist work related.
It
was reported the car park is isolated in a off tourist track with
nothing there bearing a few chalets so why did Al Hilli and French
cyclist go up there, and for that matter why did Brit ex RAF?

Could this be Secret Services execution and ex RAF was part of the operation team?
Was he sent to the place of rendezvous so that the children can be rescued quickly.
Otherwise can anyone imagine the fate of the children if left stranded
there for days undiscovered from that isolated place where there's v.
little or no human traffic for days.
I

Hi Aiyoyo, I can assure you that the cyclists were not involved. I know the area well, having holidayed there for more than 20 years.
The witness has made it clear that he does not wish to be harrassed by the press. He has given a full 8 hour statement to the police and all the essential information is there. He will obviously have been tested for powder or gun traces on his hands, blood spatters etc.

The press are all invasive and it is enough of a disturbance (when he had gone cycling in the peace of the mountains, as do MANY cyclists, mountain walkers and picnic-ers) to have had that tranquility burst asunder by the discovery of what must seem totally surreal and which called upon, what the police have described as, 'nerves of steel'.

It was only after the witness had turned the engine off, having put the little girl into the rescue position that he suddenly realised that a shooting had happened and that a sniper could be anywhere in the forest, with him in his sights. He called the emergency services immediately and then went back down the hill to turn all the other cyclists and cars around that were on their way up, in case they too got shot.

Neither cyclist had anything other than their bikes with them. Cyclists travel completely lightweight, especially there, with its steep inclines and a very pot-holed road, zig-zagging across the mountain stream which drops over waterfalls, into pools etc. It is very beautiful and a challenging exercise for cyclists.

There were quite a few cyclists riding up the hill, one older man pushing his bike, as there always are. Cars with walkers were also passing the cyclists. The top by the car park has cars parked nearly all the time, local forest wardens and maintenance workers frequent the area to service the national park. Walkers can appear out of the forest at any moment.

It is a crazy place to think of carrying out a 'discrete' assassination. This is evident, seeing that the cyclist was killed because he got there before the work was finished. It might even be that he lost his life shielding the little girl. He was a very good father having taken this year off after the birth of his third child, to look after the children and to let his wife get back to her law profession work.

When I see that he received 7 bullets I now think that he was a target on the move. The little girl was outside the car, she received a glancing shot to her shoulder. He received 5 bullets and two in the head. If the assassin had succeeded with the first two to the head, he would be a fool to hang around following them with another 5, when it is clear that the road is a stream of potential witness/traffic, albeit rural and hikers.

As for Sylvain, the slain cyclist, he is local, a lot of family in the area because families tend to be like that in Haute Savoie, and his work was more in the line of 'manual'. In Ugine most of the employees work at the local steel etc. plants which use the hydro-electric power of the water from the river that passes through Ugine to Albertville having dropped from powerful heights.

To me, the assassin was seizing a 'little window of opportunity' which turned out to be inadequate, hence Silvain being slain.
Furthermore, it is to be remembered that the assassin is still out there, somewhere until the police get to the bottom of the attack. It is still not clear as to whether it was deliberate set up, or a random crazy man and this all needs to be borne in mind.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by jd on 11.09.12 12:34

This is an interesting read (too long to post it all)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198777/French-Alps-shooting-Police-question-Saad-Al-Hillis-brother-Zaid-inheritance-row.html?openGraphAuthor=%2Fhome%2Fsearch.html%3Fs%3D%26authornamef%3DPeter%2BAllen&videoPlayerURL=http%3A%2F%2Fc.brightcove.com%2Fservices%2Fviewer%2Ffederated_f9%3FisVid%3D1%26isUI%3D1%26publisherID%3D1418450360%26playerID%3D72484359001%26domain%3Dembed%26videoId%3D&hasBCVideo=true&BCVideoID=1826984471001

What's interesting from the article is "Intelligence officers from the British Embassy in Paris are said to have been at the scene of the murder hours after it happened at 4pm (3pm UK time) on Wednesday. They were tipped off by contacts in the French Interior Ministry as soon as the identity of the car's owner was confirmed."...Reminds me of another case where the British Embassy were quickly on the scene within hours!!

The British cyclist who came across the scene was ex-RAF.

Coincidence?
To quote kate mccann "As a lawyer once said to me, apropos another matter, 'One coincidence, two coincidences – maybe they're still coincidences. Any more than that and it stops being coincidence.'...From the little we know so far in this story, we have 3 coincidences already!

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 11.09.12 13:33

@bobbin wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:The British cyclist who came across the scene was ex-RAF.

Coincidence?

It was reported Mr Al Hilli was under security surveillance.
Could it be that he'd a rendezvous with the French cyclist work related.
It was reported the car park is isolated in a off tourist track with nothing there bearing a few chalets so why did Al Hilli and French cyclist go up there, and for that matter why did Brit ex RAF?

Could this be Secret Services execution and ex RAF was part of the operation team?
Was he sent to the place of rendezvous so that the children can be rescued quickly.
Otherwise can anyone imagine the fate of the children if left stranded there for days undiscovered from that isolated place where there's v. little or no human traffic for days.
I
@aiyoyo wrote:The British cyclist who came across the scene was ex-RAF.

Coincidence?

It was reported Mr Al Hilli was under security surveillance.
Could it be that he'd a rendezvous with the French cyclist work related.
It
was reported the car park is isolated in a off tourist track with
nothing there bearing a few chalets so why did Al Hilli and French
cyclist go up there, and for that matter why did Brit ex RAF?

Could this be Secret Services execution and ex RAF was part of the operation team?
Was he sent to the place of rendezvous so that the children can be rescued quickly.
Otherwise can anyone imagine the fate of the children if left stranded
there for days undiscovered from that isolated place where there's v.
little or no human traffic for days.
I

Hi Aiyoyo, I can assure you that the cyclists were not involved. I know the area well, having holidayed there for more than 20 years.
The witness has made it clear that he does not wish to be harrassed by the press. He has given a full 8 hour statement to the police and all the essential information is there. He will obviously have been tested for powder or gun traces on his hands, blood spatters etc.

The press are all invasive and it is enough of a disturbance (when he had gone cycling in the peace of the mountains, as do MANY cyclists, mountain walkers and picnic-ers) to have had that tranquility burst asunder by the discovery of what must seem totally surreal and which called upon, what the police have described as, 'nerves of steel'.

It was only after the witness had turned the engine off, having put the little girl into the rescue position that he suddenly realised that a shooting had happened and that a sniper could be anywhere in the forest, with him in his sights. He called the emergency services immediately and then went back down the hill to turn all the other cyclists and cars around that were on their way up, in case they too got shot.

Neither cyclist had anything other than their bikes with them. Cyclists travel completely lightweight, especially there, with its steep inclines and a very pot-holed road, zig-zagging across the mountain stream which drops over waterfalls, into pools etc. It is very beautiful and a challenging exercise for cyclists.

There were quite a few cyclists riding up the hill, one older man pushing his bike, as there always are. Cars with walkers were also passing the cyclists. The top by the car park has cars parked nearly all the time, local forest wardens and maintenance workers frequent the area to service the national park. Walkers can appear out of the forest at any moment.

It is a crazy place to think of carrying out a 'discrete' assassination. This is evident, seeing that the cyclist was killed because he got there before the work was finished. It might even be that he lost his life shielding the little girl. He was a very good father having taken this year off after the birth of his third child, to look after the children and to let his wife get back to her law profession work.

When I see that he received 7 bullets I now think that he was a target on the move. The little girl was outside the car, she received a glancing shot to her shoulder. He received 5 bullets and two in the head. If the assassin had succeeded with the first two to the head, he would be a fool to hang around following them with another 5, when it is clear that the road is a stream of potential witness/traffic, albeit rural and hikers.

As for Sylvain, the slain cyclist, he is local, a lot of family in the area because families tend to be like that in Haute Savoie, and his work was more in the line of 'manual'. In Ugine most of the employees work at the local steel etc. plants which use the hydro-electric power of the water from the river that passes through Ugine to Albertville having dropped from powerful heights.

To me, the assassin was seizing a 'little window of opportunity' which turned out to be inadequate, hence Silvain being slain.
Furthermore, it is to be remembered that the assassin is still out there, somewhere until the police get to the bottom of the attack. It is still not clear as to whether it was deliberate set up, or a random crazy man and this all needs to be borne in mind.

That's nice to know, isn't it? Now where would this guy be? Let's hope not in some French cafe, having a cup of coffee reading the Daily Express of Sept 11, 2012! Because this paragon of care dutifully reports to all and sundry today:

Zainab, seven, was shot in the shoulder and hit around the head with a
pistol butt fracturing her skull. She was kept under armed police guard
in a medically-induced coma but was awoken on Sunday at the hospital in
Grenoble. Despite suffering sickening injuries her very first words
indicate she clearly remembers parts of the attack in which her wealthy
aerospace engineer father, of Claygate, Surrey, was shot in the forehead
twice.


Zainab's sister, Zeena, four, was found eight hours later cowering
under her dead mother's legs. She was released from hospital on Sunday
and flown back to the UK with an aunt and uncle.


Police are staggered at how much Zainab already remembers of Wednesday's murders.


Kudos for the Express!

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Nina on 11.09.12 13:34

@jd wrote:This is an interesting read (too long to post it all)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198777/French-Alps-shooting-Police-question-Saad-Al-Hillis-brother-Zaid-inheritance-row.html?openGraphAuthor=%2Fhome%2Fsearch.html%3Fs%3D%26authornamef%3DPeter%2BAllen&videoPlayerURL=http%3A%2F%2Fc.brightcove.com%2Fservices%2Fviewer%2Ffederated_f9%3FisVid%3D1%26isUI%3D1%26publisherID%3D1418450360%26playerID%3D72484359001%26domain%3Dembed%26videoId%3D&hasBCVideo=true&BCVideoID=1826984471001

What's interesting from the article is "Intelligence officers from the British Embassy in Paris are said to have been at the scene of the murder hours after it happened at 4pm (3pm UK time) on Wednesday. They were tipped off by contacts in the French Interior Ministry as soon as the identity of the car's owner was confirmed."...Reminds me of another case where the British Embassy were quickly on the scene within hours!!

The British cyclist who came across the scene was ex-RAF.

Coincidence?
To quote kate mccann "As a lawyer once said to me, apropos another matter, 'One coincidence, two coincidences – maybe they're still coincidences. Any more than that and it stops being coincidence.'...From the little we know so far in this story, we have 3 coincidences already!

Kate McCann using the word apropos, God she's on a learning curve, yer know, erm, like, mixing with educated lawyers what, who, like yer know, erm, yes, erm, use words like that, but she looked it up in the dictionary dance

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by jd on 11.09.12 14:58

@Nina wrote:
Kate McCann using the word apropos,

Yes this stunned me too!!

She probably only remembers the word when briefed to quote it, not what it means!

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 11.09.12 17:12

@bobbin wrote:
Hi Aiyoyo, I can assure you that the cyclists were not involved. I know the area well, having holidayed there for more than 20 years.
The witness has made it clear that he does not wish to be harrassed by the press. He has given a full 8 hour statement to the police and all the essential information is there. He will obviously have been tested for powder or gun traces on his hands, blood spatters etc.

The press are all invasive and it is enough of a disturbance (when he had gone cycling in the peace of the mountains, as do MANY cyclists, mountain walkers and picnic-ers) to have had that tranquility burst asunder by the discovery of what must seem totally surreal and which called upon, what the police have described as, 'nerves of steel'.

It was only after the witness had turned the engine off, having put the little girl into the rescue position that he suddenly realised that a shooting had happened and that a sniper could be anywhere in the forest, with him in his sights. He called the emergency services immediately and then went back down the hill to turn all the other cyclists and cars around that were on their way up, in case they too got shot.

Neither cyclist had anything other than their bikes with them. Cyclists travel completely lightweight, especially there, with its steep inclines and a very pot-holed road, zig-zagging across the mountain stream which drops over waterfalls, into pools etc. It is very beautiful and a challenging exercise for cyclists.

There were quite a few cyclists riding up the hill, one older man pushing his bike, as there always are. Cars with walkers were also passing the cyclists. The top by the car park has cars parked nearly all the time, local forest wardens and maintenance workers frequent the area to service the national park. Walkers can appear out of the forest at any moment.

It is a crazy place to think of carrying out a 'discrete' assassination. This is evident, seeing that the cyclist was killed because he got there before the work was finished. It might even be that he lost his life shielding the little girl. He was a very good father having taken this year off after the birth of his third child, to look after the children and to let his wife get back to her law profession work.

When I see that he received 7 bullets I now think that he was a target on the move. The little girl was outside the car, she received a glancing shot to her shoulder. He received 5 bullets and two in the head. If the assassin had succeeded with the first two to the head, he would be a fool to hang around following them with another 5, when it is clear that the road is a stream of potential witness/traffic, albeit rural and hikers.

As for Sylvain, the slain cyclist, he is local, a lot of family in the area because families tend to be like that in Haute Savoie, and his work was more in the line of 'manual'. In Ugine most of the employees work at the local steel etc. plants which use the hydro-electric power of the water from the river that passes through Ugine to Albertville having dropped from powerful heights.

To me, the assassin was seizing a 'little window of opportunity' which turned out to be inadequate, hence Silvain being slain.
Furthermore, it is to be remembered that the assassin is still out there, somewhere until the police get to the bottom of the attack. It is still not clear as to whether it was deliberate set up, or a random crazy man and this all needs to be borne in mind.

Hi Bobbin,
I've holidayed in Haute Savoie a number of times in the winter season when we used to live in France up until a few years ago.
I must admit I don't know the area well as we were there mainly for our children to ski staying invariably in a chalet of our neighbour.

I didn't think either of the cyclist was involved in the killing. Au contraire in fact.
If report is to be believed that the slain cyclist, Slyvain Collier, worked for a nuclear equipment supplies company, and that the company Mr Al Hilli worked for was working on a secret contract for one of Europe's biggest defence companies, then it's not beyond the realm of possibility that both men knew each other through work association, and that they might be having a secret meeting there when they were taken out so to speak. Two birds with one stone.

Because of the highly classified and sensitive nature of his work, it's not surprising Al-Hilli was under security surveillance.
Unbeknown to him perhaps his phone was bugged also, so his every communication and movement were monitored by Big Brother.
If one considers the amount of ammunition used which isn't easy for a civilian to acquire, then the assassins might have been state agents.
Lone crazy man pattern is to target crowd in a crowded area like a school or holiday resort for example and not specific family.
This is either contracted job or secret agent doing IMO.

The ex-RAF cyclist chancing upon the massacre may just be pure coincidenc, again who knows.
To me, something stinks to high heaven in this case.

So the ex-RAF cyclist-witness had turned the engine off?
How? did he smash open the window as the car doors were reportedly locked.
Being ex-RAF with that kind of training he'd had, did he check for survival in the car?
Alright so the 4-year old was not in obvious sight, so maybe he missed her, that's fair enough.

But what to make of his odd train of thought and behavior?
Despite thinking that the sniper could be lurking around, with him in his sights, and therefore he could be in danger of being shot at, and therefore also that oncoming human traffic might face the same danger that he rushed downhill to warn them just in case, but strangely he'd thought nothing about leaving the injured (but alive) child alone waiting for emergency service to arrive, putting her life at risk of the hiding sniper finishing her off. How odd, especially when you take in account that he'd placed the girl in recovery position, a sign to the lurking around sniper that the girl was still alive.

Also, ask is it logical that an ex-RAF arriving on the scene to find freshly bullet-ridden adult bodies, including that of the cyclist he'd recognized as the one who went passed him massacred, and sniper no longer in sight, to think that sniper had not by then fled by car? From his background you would think that of all people, an RAF man should know better that sniper of any kind (even that of a lone mad-man kind) does not hang around to be seen even if he thought the sniper had arrived on foot through the forest.
Maybe I am stretching my imagination to the limit but an ex-RAF man on the scene arriving after the French cyclist who happened to work also in a sensitive industry is freaky for coincidence.
Did he rush down the hill (leaving an injured child) to stop oncoming human traffic from facing potential harm or was it to stop more people witnessing the crime scene.
How did he know the child wouldn't die and need comforting if it comes to that when he left her there to wait for help to arrive?
Or had the help arrived before he rushed down? If the help had arrived there isn't any need to rush down surely?

You have to wonder why two shots each in the head of each adult when one is already fatal, unless there was more than one killer, and the 40 bullets spent was just to confuse investigators.

It's perplexing why the child was shot outside the car and the doors to the car locked.
If she'd gone to toilet as someone posited then you would think at least an adult would have taken her especially since she's only a child and they were in an unfamiliar place. Also, why locked the car doors if she'd gone to the toilet?

Could it be the assassin ordered or dragged her out of the car before shooting at the adults inside?
Maybe being a child she was to be spared but somehow the cyclist instinctively stood in front of her to shield her and bullets meant for him hit her instead. Had the sniper wanted to kill her it would make no difference whether she was inside or outside the car.

You opined that was not "discrete location", maybe that wasn't a choice assassination location, but the opportunity presents itself.
Professional assassins are trained to take anyone out in the most unlikely of places and they'd still have managed it without any trace to them. Besides, a forested car park area with only occasional random passer-by isn't that bad a choice, especially if the idea was to do it away from home ground. Just maybe.






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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by jd on 11.09.12 17:52

Lone crazy man pattern is to target crowd in a crowded area like a school or holiday resort for example and not specific family.

Exactly. Lone gunmen do their deed in crowded areas like schools, cinema's, train stations, where there are lots of people gathered (on their agenda) like Norway...Their aim is to kill as many as possible as this is their glory, not to be waiting in a secluded area waiting for someone or a family of 4 to turn up

In this case, there is also a machine gun used with 2 bullets in the head which very strongly points that their intended target was killed, the family said they had booked the caravan park for a week but suddenly left after 2 days.....For the 2 days there Al-Hilli had left the caravan park on his own 4-5 times both days for 30-40 minutes.....Who was the grandmother? The neighbour in Surrey who said Al-Hilli had secret documents and had hidden them prior to going away....A lone gunman does not drive a 4x4 and/or a bike for a getaway

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 11.09.12 18:50

@jd wrote:
Lone crazy man pattern is to target crowd in a crowded area like a school or holiday resort for example and not specific family.

Exactly. Lone gunmen do their deed in crowded areas like schools, cinema's, train stations, where there are lots of people gathered (on their agenda) like Norway...Their aim is to kill as many as possible as this is their glory, not to be waiting in a secluded area waiting for someone or a family of 4 to turn up

In this case, there is also a machine gun used with 2 bullets in the head which very strongly points that their intended target was killed, the family said they had booked the caravan park for a week but suddenly left after 2 days.....For the 2 days there Al-Hilli had left the caravan park on his own 4-5 times both days for 30-40 minutes.....Who was the grandmother? The neighbour in Surrey who said Al-Hilli had secret documents and had hidden them prior to going away....A lone gunman does not drive a 4x4 and/or a bike for a getaway

Agreed, 4x4 is not trademark of lone mad gunman, neither is a bike.
It would appear the hitman came well prepared, suitably armed, and in a vehicle suitable for hill in rough terrain.

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