The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hi,

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and start chatting with us!

Enjoy your day,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by PeterMac on 06.09.12 8:25

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198777/French-Alps-shooting-Girl-4-ALIVE-bodies-British-family-gunned-near-Lake-Annecy.html

Little girl found alive after 8 hours when the forensic scientists begin to move the bodies.
One of the unintended consequences of preserving the scene at all costs.

There is always a trade off between preservation and ensuring that the victims can no longer be helped. The question is how ones draw that line. The doctor who pronounced life extinct would not have pulled the bodies around, merely examined them or vital signs in situ, so it is not his "fault'.
The easiest thing will be to blame the police 'faut de mieux', and to discipline one or more 'pour encourager les autres.'

Strange how apt French is to this situation.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 9:12

A truly dreadful case which does at the moment look like a rare stranger attack. I don't blame the police either for not finding the little girl earlier.

That happened I think with the Russell family murders in Kent in 1996 when it was initially thought that all three had died but 9-year-old Josie was found to be alive and survived against all the odds. I'm not convinced that the right person was convicted, but that's another story.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by PeterMac on 06.09.12 9:15

Jean wrote:A truly dreadful case which does at the moment look like a rare stranger attack. I don't blame the police either for not finding the little girl earlier.

That happened I think with the Russell family murders in Kent in 1996 when it was initially thought that all three had died but 9-year-old Josie was found to be alive and survived against all the odds. I'm not convinced that the right person was convicted, but that's another story.
I very much doubt it is a stranger attack !

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 9:51

@PeterMac wrote:
Jean wrote:A truly dreadful case which does at the moment look like a rare stranger attack. I don't blame the police either for not finding the little girl earlier.

That happened I think with the Russell family murders in Kent in 1996 when it was initially thought that all three had died but 9-year-old Josie was found to be alive and survived against all the odds. I'm not convinced that the right person was convicted, but that's another story.
I very much doubt it is a stranger attack !
***
Why? Is there a family member missing?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by PeterMac on 06.09.12 9:54

I mean in the sense that it was a total stranger unknown to the deceased, and the deceased unknown to the stranger. Random, motiveless and so on. There is likely to be a story behind it.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 9:58

@PeterMac wrote:I mean in the sense that it was a total stranger unknown to the deceased, and the deceased unknown to the stranger. Random, motiveless and so on. There is likely to be a story behind it.
***
I see. Thank you.
I'll keep an eye on the French papers.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 10:22

A very detailed article in Le Monde [with apologies; I don't have the time to translate]:
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2012/09/06/les-victimes-de-la-tuerie-en-savoie-seraient-des-touristes-britanniques_1756073_3224.html

I now understand that there are indeed 4 dead: probably father, mother and grandmother in the car, a biker nearby the car, all shot. A wounded girl nearby the car, not shot, but with a fractured skull and a unharmed little girl in the car, only found after 8 hours, as the crime scene was preserved until forensic specialists would arrive from Paris, which took a long time ...

The procureur d'Annecy has already declared that a family drama is not to be excluded.


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 06.09.12 10:28

Every killer has a motive.
It's unlikely to be random stranger murder. Stories will emerge soon.
A British family reported them missing, meaning this family knew their schedule.
If it was a heist by stranger there was no need to kill anyone let alone the 8-year old girl who was outside the car.
It's totally senseless to murder a child in cold-blood, unless killer was known to her and she was killed to silent her.








aiyoyo

Posts : 9611
Reputation : 318
Join date : 2009-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 10:33

@aiyoyo wrote: [...]
If it was a heist by stranger there was no need to kill anyone let alone the 8-year old girl who was outside the car.
It's totally senseless to murder a child in cold-blood, unless killer was known to her and she was killed to silent her.
***
She's alive and they hope to be able to talk to her within the next few days.








Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 06.09.12 10:40

I cant get my head round when and why she got out of the car at all.
One would have thought if she was going out to get help she would have waited until the killer was gone.






aiyoyo

Posts : 9611
Reputation : 318
Join date : 2009-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by russiandoll on 06.09.12 10:44

I don't have time to translate either, apologies, but there is this from our media..
speculation that the family passing through that area might have interrupted a major drugs deal and the murder was by gangsters because so many shots were fired.

and from the French article
"Toutes les précautions ont été prises pour qu'[elle et sa sœur aînée, retrouvée blessée à l'extérieur du véhicule] soient encadrées, soignées et protégées dans les meilleures conditions possibles"
every precaution has been taken in order that she and her elder sister [ found inujred outside the car] are cared for and protected in the best possible ways.

use of the word "encadrees" by the prosecutor is interesting, stating that the children are surrounded very closely for their protection.

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2011-09-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Olive_Boyle on 06.09.12 10:45

Jean wrote: I'm not convinced that the right person was convicted, but that's another story.

Not another conspiracy theory please. Jean don't worry they got the right person. There is no defence of this sick individual.

Olive_Boyle

Posts : 122
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-05-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Invinoveritas on 06.09.12 10:53

@aiyoyo wrote:I cant get my head round when and why she got out of the car at all.
One would have thought if she was going out to get help she would have waited until the killer was gone.





as I understand it, the car was parked at the time, could it be that the girl had gone to relieve herself ?

____________________
"A voyage of discovery is not just seeing new sights - it is seeing familiar sights with new eyes." Proust

Invinoveritas

Posts : 374
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Nowereland

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 13:08

I just heard on French radio, that the father has been identified. He was 50, lived in the London region, had British nationality, but was originally from Iraq.

ETA I do think that the girls do have to be protected. The 4-year-old apparently couldn't tell much, apart from cries and panic, but the wounded 7-8-year-old will be able to tell more.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 13:23

This is so heartbreaking ...Poor little children what a horrific traumatic experience for them...

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by russiandoll on 06.09.12 13:31

The damned media again. The public prosecutor at the press conference taking place now has been firm in not releasing the identities of the victims, he is aware that there are names on the internet and in British media. British news channels are saying a lot more than the prosecutor, who has simply said the father of the family was Iraqi -born but naturalised British.
He wants to avoid distress to people who might have known him and who are following the case, while police have not officially stated their ids.
He is totally professional with care for those who knew these people.
British media have come up with a name and where the victim lived, a helicopter is hovering above his home.
Just so they can be first with breaking news, news which no-one apart from his loved ones and the police need to know.
Disgusting, a leak from the police when the prosecutor has asked for privacy to be respected and the media are publishing this news.
This prosecutor is very impressive and is being very firm with the media.

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2011-09-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 16:03

What's wrong with these British journos? Unforgivable. I checked some other papers, including Dutch, but haven't found other papers disclosing the identity of the father ...

BTW I also stumbled upon June 2012 articles about human bones being found in the woods around Chevaline. Bizarre.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 16:09

Châtelaine wrote:What's wrong with these British journos? Unforgivable. I checked some other papers, including Dutch, but haven't found other papers disclosing the identity of the father ...

BTW I also stumbled upon June 2012 articles about human bones being found in the woods around Chevaline. Bizarre.

our norwegian news has given out the fathers name. Saying he has been identified as one of the victims. And that one of the other ladies killed was Swedish.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Invinoveritas on 06.09.12 16:38

No naming in the german tabloids, just that the victims are of iraki origin and lived in england, honestly I´m disgusted how UK media seek sensation and even the BBC (state TV) are no better

____________________
"A voyage of discovery is not just seeing new sights - it is seeing familiar sights with new eyes." Proust

Invinoveritas

Posts : 374
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Nowereland

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by russiandoll on 06.09.12 18:03

[quote="aiyoyo"]I cant get my head round when and why she got out of the car at all.
One would have thought if she was going out to get help she would have waited until the killer was gone.

This girl was shot in the shoulder and badly pistol-whipped according to the police. Am I right in thinking you were surprised to hear that all victims were inside and she was the only one on the road? She could have been dragged out of the car before being beaten. If she did get out of her own accord after being injured, it was probably not to get help, she would have been too traumatised emotionally and badly hurt physically to think clearly. I would imagine if she was left injured in the car and climbed out, she was simply trying to get the hell away from what was inside From what I heard about her injuries I doubt she got out of that car herself, though; she was in such a bad state that the prosecutor said the cyclist who found her and attended to her probably saved her life.. She is in an induced coma to help her recover from a fractured skull. God bless her and the little one hiding for hours in the car....I guess the 8 year old will need the same psychiatric care as her sister is receiving when she is conscious, 2 young orphans who will be traumatised for years.
Let's not forget the French cyclist, a local father of 3 it is reported, who is also dead. It is gruesome and so sad.

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2011-09-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by russiandoll on 06.09.12 18:28

from France 24 :

French authorities said the victims were discovered by a passing cyclist around 3:50 pm Wednesday. The cyclist who was killed had overtaken him minutes earlier.

Several witnesses reported seeing a car speeding away from the scene around the time the attack took place.

Experts from the national gendarmerie's IRCGN unit collected DNA evidence from the scene and were checking spent bullet cartridges in an attempt to identify the weapons used.

Local police defended the decisions that led to the four-year-old being left in the car for so long.

"We had instructions not to enter the car and not to move the bodies," Lieutenant-Colonel Benoit Vinnemann of the local gendarmerie told AFP.

The gendarmes were unable to open the doors of the family's BMW for fear that bullet-pierced windows would shatter, potentially compromising the work of the IRCGN forensic team.

"Firemen, technicians and doctors all looked into the car through the holes in the windows but none of them saw the girl," Vinnemann added.

A helicopter equipped with a thermal camera took images of the car to check if there were any other bodies inside but also failed to identify the girl. "She was so close to her mother they appeared as one mass," said Vinnemann.

There was an ex murder detective on Sky a couple of hours ago who said he would not criticise the French police and then launched into a criticism, saying the UK had forensic teams which could be at a crime scene much more quickly than appeared the case in France. That the police would search for possible survivors prior to securing the vehicle. Needless to say, he had been asked what the UK would have done differently. Let's hope the UK tabloids don't start vilifying the French police.
What happened to the 4 year old is too awful to contemplate, but police have reassured media that she is getting the best possible care. She has asked for her family, how they handle that Heaven knows. One small mercy, her sister's condition is now said to be serious but not life-threatening.


____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2011-09-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Invinoveritas on 06.09.12 18:51

quote:There was an ex murder detective on Sky a couple of hours ago who said
he would not criticise the French police and then launched into a
criticism, saying the UK had forensic teams which could be at a crime
scene much more quickly than appeared the case in France.end quote
Here we go again, those foreigners failed our people again, if forensic had been quicker then the killers would have been caught, same old story, same old song, don´t they realise that Europe is a tiny bit larger than the UK? France is huge as anyone who has travelled through the country has realised

____________________
"A voyage of discovery is not just seeing new sights - it is seeing familiar sights with new eyes." Proust

Invinoveritas

Posts : 374
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-13
Location : Nowereland

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 06.09.12 19:04

@Invinoveritas wrote:quote:There was an ex murder detective on Sky a couple of hours ago who said
he would not criticise the French police and then launched into a
criticism, saying the UK had forensic teams which could be at a crime
scene much more quickly than appeared the case in France.end quote
Here we go again, those foreigners failed our people again, if forensic had been quicker then the killers would have been caught, same old story, same old song, don´t they realise that Europe is a tiny bit larger than the UK? France is huge as anyone who has travelled through the country has realised

Another UK ex-murder detective who didn't engage brain b/f shooting off his gob.
Look, it took the UK Police more than a week to realise/recover a body from the ATTIC!

I am so annoyed at this stupid ex-murder detective's remark. Maybe he was ex- not from retirement but from a negative reason.

aiyoyo

Posts : 9611
Reputation : 318
Join date : 2009-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by russiandoll on 06.09.12 22:42

some more thoughts on the Sky web site, these are interesting....

The killing of a skilled Iraqi-born engineer and two of his family in the French Alps may have been terror-related, a former police chief has told Sky News.

Police in France are considering a number of possible motives for the shooting.

Here, former commander of the Flying Squad John O'Connor and criminologist Professor David Wilson offer their insights.

John O'Connor, former commander of Flying Squad:

"The shootings look like they are terrorist-related. The people that have done it are military trained. It certainly seems to be a military assassination. The killers were sending a message about not crossing them. It doesn't sound like a gangland hit.

"Was the Iraq-born victim involved in the intelligence world? He reportedly worked for AMS 1087 Ltd which is listed as Aerial Photographers and Surveys. Is there any significance in this?

"The killers don't sound UK-based and I don't see any connection with criminals in this country. MY BOLD, AS THERE IS NEXT TO NOTHING RELEASED BY FRENCH POLICE ABOUT THEIR INVESTIGATION, HOW DOES MR O' CONNOR COME TO THIS CONCLUSION?

"It appears the gun was an automatic weapon, used professionally - because of the accuracy. This would lead one to think of trained personnel, terrorists.

It was well planned and professionally executed. You can forget it being carried out by a local villain and I don't think it was a botched robbery.

"The police should be concentrating on the victim's background, who he works for, what his movements have been.

"The killings would have taken a lot of planning. A surveillance operation takes time and money. Who is going to sponsor them?

"These sort of cases are always notoriously difficult to solve. If the police run into a brick wall of silence, then this would suggest that this is a more organised and almost certainly terrorist inspired hit."


Professor David Wilson, Professor of Criminology, Birmingham City University:

"This is still a 'who done it', not a 'why done it'.

"So you have to concentrate on who has access to these victims and who has the opportunity to use this access to affect the killings.

"The police should also look at how many people were in the holiday party.

"We know there was one man, two children and two women. Were there other people in the group?

"The police should work out whether anybody is missing.

"You've got to deal with everything closer to home first.

"Although this kind of murder is unusual, I think the case is very solveable.

"There are two young witnesses who may be able to provide some information.

"In regard to why the killer wanted these people dead, most murder victims are in some form of relationship with the perpetrator.

"We need to establish the relationship between these victims. Only then should you start thinking about more fanciful theories of hitmen or other types of killers.

"In my experience, hitmen do not normally leave witnesses at their crime scenes."


____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2011-09-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 06.09.12 22:55

@russiandoll wrote: [...]

Professor David Wilson, Professor of Criminology, Birmingham City University:

"This is still a 'who done it', not a 'why done it'.

"So you have to concentrate on who has access to these victims and who has the opportunity to use this access to affect the killings.

"The police should also look at how many people were in the holiday party.

"We know there was one man, two children and two women. ]b]Were there other people in the group?
[/b]
"The police should work out whether anybody is missing.

"You've got to deal with everything closer to home first.

"Although this kind of murder is unusual, I think the case is very solveable.

"There are two young witnesses who may be able to provide some information.

"In regard to why the killer wanted these people dead, most murder victims are in some form of relationship with the perpetrator.

"We need to establish the relationship between these victims. Only then should you start thinking about more fanciful theories of hitmen or other types of killers.

"In my experience, hitmen do not normally leave witnesses at their crime scenes."

***
I am totally with the Professor.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum