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***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 30.03.16 12:51

@April28th wrote:Having spoken to the PJ I can confirm that they received all the photos in the files in full colour and definition. This means that Richard's assertion that TM delivered them to the PJ in this burned greyscale manner is wrong. I will be contacting him so he can amend this.
You can speak Portuguese?

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by April28th on 30.03.16 12:59

Alas no, but Google translate was kind to me!

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 30.03.16 13:00

@April28th wrote:Alas no, but Google translate was kind to me!
You said you spoke to them directly. How did Google translate help you?

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by April28th on 30.03.16 13:02

By spoke I meant emailed, excuse my lack of clarity there.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 30.03.16 13:45

@April28th wrote:By spoke I meant emailed, excuse my lack of clarity there.
Ah ok, can you post the email here please?

And while you've got a line of communication open with them can you ask them if there were any other photographs of Madeleine taken that week?

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by April28th on 30.03.16 17:19

I'm awaiting another reply from them, I'm not sure if it's proper to post their emails, I will ask.

I did ask that (if there were photos not released) in my last email also.

ETA - They are very easy to reach by the way: recursos.humanos@pj.pt

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by whodunit on 30.03.16 17:21

@April28th wrote:I'm awaiting another reply from them, I'm not sure if it's proper to post their emails, I will ask.

I did ask that (if there were photos not released) in my last email also.

The PJ isn't a private person. Of course it's proper to release correspondence with a public entity with or without their permission.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by April28th on 30.03.16 17:27

Yes, but it is a sensitive subject, and talking about things that aren't in the public domain, so I'd rather handle it properly. As I added above, they are very easy to reach if you have questions, they will just want to verify who you are first: recursos.humanos@pj.pt

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by whodunit on 30.03.16 17:46

@April28th wrote:Yes, but it is a sensitive subject, and talking about things that aren't in the public domain, so I'd rather handle it properly. As I added above, they are very easy to reach if you have questions, they will just want to verify who you are first: recursos.humanos@pj.pt

You've already informed the board of what the e-mail says
so it can't be THAT sensitive.

You are  a public citizen making an inquiry to a publicly funded entity. They would not have answered you if they felt the information was too sensitive to share with the world, which you have already done anyway.

You have proposed to 'correct' a filmmaker on a point of fact contained in his work based on an e-mail you received from the police. You cannot expect Mr. Hall to act to correct his work based on your word alone, nor can you expect the public/readers of this forum to take you at your word. If you are unwilling to share the primary source of your information, and I'm not saying you ARE unwilling, then I'm afraid we are allowed to assume Mr. Hall's assertion re: these photos stands unchallenged.

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Credibility issue

Post by Tony Bennett on 30.03.16 18:42

@whodunit wrote:
@April28th wrote:Yes, but it is a sensitive subject, and talking about things that aren't in the public domain, so I'd rather handle it properly. As I added above, they are very easy to reach if you have questions, they will just want to verify who you are first: recursos.humanos@pj.pt

You've already informed the board of what the e-mail says
so it can't be THAT sensitive.

You are  a public citizen making an inquiry to a publicly funded entity. They would not have answered you if they felt the information was too sensitive to share with the world, which you have already done anyway.

You have proposed to 'correct' a filmmaker on a point of fact contained in his work based on an e-mail you received from the police. You cannot expect Mr. Hall to act to correct his work based on your word alone, nor can you expect the public/readers of this forum to take you at your word. If you are unwilling to share the primary source of your information, and I'm not saying you ARE unwilling, then I'm afraid we are allowed to assume Mr. Hall's assertion re: these photos stands unchallenged.
@ April28th

However hard you may try, you are not going to convince a single soul on this board that you have received such an e-mail as you describe unless you produce it in full.

Did the police officer say: "Look, here's the information you want about these photos, but please, please, whatever you do, please keep this strictly confidential. Don't tell anyone!"   

Of course not.

So:

* disclose the e-mail in full
* show us the e-mail you sent
* give us the dates of the exchange of e-mails
* give us the name of the PJ officer who e-mailed you, and
* tell us if the mail was in perfect Portuguese or perfect English.

Your credibility on this forum is now at stake.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Nina on 30.03.16 19:27

@April28th wrote:Having spoken to the PJ I can confirm that they received all the photos in the files in full colour and definition. This means that Richard's assertion that TM delivered them to the PJ in this burned greyscale manner is wrong. I will be contacting him so he can amend this.
I have a recollection that the photos were changed to black and white to protect the children.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Verdi on 30.03.16 20:34

@April28th wrote:Alas no, but Google translate was kind to me!
Oh dear oh dear oh dear..  you seriously communicated with a European police force asking for 'sensitive' information by way of google translate?  That's a very brave manoeuvre if I might say.

Through absolute necessity I've used google translate to communicate on a matter of trivia which I can only refer to as a total disaster, apart from that rather foolish episode, when required I always resort to a professional translator - the only way to ensure accuracy.   Google translate literally translates word for word which I'm sure you must realize is a total misrepresentation of text.  It's impossible to translate language to language verbatim, apart from any grammatical difference words and phrases can have a totally different meaning - frankly I'm astounded that you received a reply of any description.  Can't wait to see it in Portuguese (assuming that's the language they used for their reply) and the google translate version.

I'm also astounded, given the interest shown in the subject over the years, that someone hasn't already tried such a risque route for gaining police information - especially one of the Portuguese speaking brethren that has been following the case over the years.

I'm reticent to provide fuel to the ravenous pack of wolves always waiting in the wilderness for a juicy morsel to rip apart ad-nauseam but you're asking a lot for people to believe that a police force in the civilized world would ask a stranger by e-mail to verify their identity.  How does that work exactly - type in a few characters or identify pictures containing rice puddings to prove you're not a robot?

All sounds a bit iffy to me.  Are you sure of who you were allegedly corresponding with - did they verify who they are?

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by tinkier on 30.03.16 20:53

@April28th wrote:Yes, but it is a sensitive subject, and talking about things that aren't in the public domain, so I'd rather handle it properly. As I added above, they are very easy to reach if you have questions, they will just want to verify who you are first: recursos.humanos@pj.pt
Oh dear April28, you have opened a big can of juicy worms now. May I suggest, if you don't want to publish the contents of the email on a public forum, you might want to send it to a couple of the admins, they can have a look and verify.  thumbsup

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Verdi on 30.03.16 21:52

@tinkier wrote:
@April28th wrote:Yes, but it is a sensitive subject, and talking about things that aren't in the public domain, so I'd rather handle it properly. As I added above, they are very easy to reach if you have questions, they will just want to verify who you are first: recursos.humanos@pj.pt
Oh dear April28, you have opened a big can of juicy worms now. May I suggest, if you don't want to publish the contents of the email on a public forum, you might want to send it to a couple of the admins, they can have a look and verify.  thumbsup
Hold up a minute tinkier, I'm sure you mean well but with respect you can't put the onus on admin.  Someone has made a claim about a communication held with the Portuguese authorities so it's the responsibility of that person to provide evidence of that claim.

Why should it be considered a sensitive issue anyway?  A member of the public makes a request for information concerning a police investigation, who then claims to have received the requested information by email - hardly a state secret is it?  Besides, would a bona-fide police force so readily give information to a member of the public by email, information that concerns a very serious crime?  I know Portuguese law differs from that of the UK but can you imagine the blood sweat and tears trying to get the UK authorities to reveal specific detail about a criminal investigation to an anonymous entity?


As far as I understand it, the Portuguese released documentation relating to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann into the public arena in accordance with their legislation.  If anything was held back for any reason then they are, again, very unlikely to disclose classified information to a chance member of the public are they?

ETA:  Sorry, should have been tinkier not tinkerbell.  Got bells on the brain.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by tinkier on 30.03.16 22:59

@Verdi wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@April28th wrote:Yes, but it is a sensitive subject, and talking about things that aren't in the public domain, so I'd rather handle it properly. As I added above, they are very easy to reach if you have questions, they will just want to verify who you are first: recursos.humanos@pj.pt
Oh dear April28, you have opened a big can of juicy worms now. May I suggest, if you don't want to publish the contents of the email on a public forum, you might want to send it to a couple of the admins, they can have a look and verify.  thumbsup
Hold up a minute tinkier, I'm sure you mean well but with respect you can't put the onus on admin.  Someone has made a claim about a communication held with the Portuguese authorities so it's the responsibility of that person to provide evidence of that claim.

Why should it be considered a sensitive issue anyway?  A member of the public makes a request for information concerning a police investigation, who then claims to have received the requested information by email - hardly a state secret is it?  Besides, would a bona-fide police force so readily give information to a member of the public by email, information that concerns a very serious crime?  I know Portuguese law differs from that of the UK but can you imagine the blood sweat and tears trying to get the UK authorities to reveal specific detail about a criminal investigation to an anonymous entity?


As far as I understand it, the Portuguese released documentation relating to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann into the public arena in accordance with their legislation.  If anything was held back for any reason then they are, again, very unlikely to disclose classified information to a chance member of the public are they?

ETA:  Sorry, should have been tinkier not tinkerbell.  Got bells on the brain.
I don't think it's a sensitive issue, but maybe the poster does. I got the impression he/she felt uncomfortable posting it on a public forum, that's all. It was only a friendly suggestion.  flag

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Tony Bennett on 30.03.16 23:14

@tinkier wrote:
I don't think it's a sensitive issue, but maybe the poster does. I got the impression he/she felt uncomfortable posting it on a public forum, that's all. It was only a friendly suggestion.  
@ tinkier   

I think we can all see that you posted your suggestion with good and honest intent.

What is at issue here - so it is on topic - is that it is claimed that Richard Hall was incorrect to say that it was the McCanns/Alex Woolfall/Michael Wright who supplied the dud, grainy, 'grey-scale' images (on two CDs) that are no use to man or beast. 

'April28th' says the PJ are responsible for those greyscale images.

Now, Hall might have got that wrong. Mystery surrounds the issue. It would be helpful to clear it up one way or another.

But it does not help us at all to claim that 'a PJ officer told me something different in an e-mail', without producing a shred of evidence in support.

And 'Verdi' is right to say it's not fair to let Admin decide on the claims.

April28th's bold claim is that an as-yet-unnamed PJ officer of uncertain rank has sent an official e-mail to him.

We should all see the evidence - otherwise we must reject it, and also perhaps err on the side of caution in accepting any other claims made by the same poster.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by April28th on 31.03.16 13:52

@Verdi wrote:I'm reticent to provide fuel to the ravenous pack of wolves always waiting in the wilderness for a juicy morsel to rip apart ad-nauseam but you're asking a lot for people to believe that a police force in the civilized world would ask a stranger by e-mail to verify their identity.  How does that work exactly - type in a few characters or identify pictures containing rice puddings to prove you're not a robot?

All sounds a bit iffy to me.  Are you sure of who you were allegedly corresponding with - did they verify who they are?



Look, I understand where everyone is coming from, so I wont make the mistake of taking this personally. The above was the email where my identity/purpose was requested, since you queried it. It also shows who replied. I'm not spouting fantasy.

I will stick to my guns and await the reply from them before posting anything else. I asked to see the colour photos, and asked if other photos were witheld from the released files. If I get a reply saying they can't be released, then I will show that verbatim. If they allow me to see photos but not share them, then I will share that word for word. If I receive the images and no request not to distribute them then I will happily share them.

So please just have a little patience, I want to give them the due respect. Yes it's true I have stated the substance of what I was told but as you rightly point out, until it is presented it is not to be taken as truth. I will happily go along with that position. If I become persona non grata during the wait then so be it. Equally, you can see the email address. There's nothing to stop someone else asking them and getting the confirmation, no need to wait on me.

Oh and by the way, I sent my emails in English and Portuguese, and not just word for word, I made the effort to translate back and forth for coherence. They weren't just blunt force translations.

ETA - To update, I've been told to refer my request directly to the Exmo. Magistrado do Ministério Público for decision.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by whodunit on 31.03.16 17:23

We weren't asking for the photos @April28, though it would be nice to see them. We asked to see the e-mail in which the pj confirmed to you that they received  full color photos from TM rather than the greyscale photos we see in the files. 


I can't stress this enough: You are under no obligation to keep correspondence between you and the police a secret. Unless you are a highly privileged individual with special clearance with the Portuguese or British authorities, even if they asked you to keep the correspondence a secret you are under no obligation to do so. In any case, you have already spilled the beans, according to you, so showing the proof of your assertion is a mere formality.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by j.rob on 31.03.16 18:24

@whodunit wrote:We weren't asking for the photos @April28, though it would be nice to see them. We asked to see the e-mail in which the pj confirmed to you that they received  full color photos from TM rather than the greyscale photos we see in the files. 


I can't stress this enough: You are under no obligation to keep correspondence between you and the police a secret. Unless you are a highly privileged individual with special clearance with the Portuguese or British authorities, even if they asked you to keep the correspondence a secret you are under no obligation to do so. In any case, you have already spilled the beans, according to you, so showing the proof of your assertion is a mere formality.
April28 is also under no obligation to reproduce the correspondence here either. And as h/she says if people are that interested, why not email the pj directly?

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by whodunit on 31.03.16 18:30

@j.rob wrote:
@whodunit wrote:We weren't asking for the photos @April28, though it would be nice to see them. We asked to see the e-mail in which the pj confirmed to you that they received  full color photos from TM rather than the greyscale photos we see in the files. 


I can't stress this enough: You are under no obligation to keep correspondence between you and the police a secret. Unless you are a highly privileged individual with special clearance with the Portuguese or British authorities, even if they asked you to keep the correspondence a secret you are under no obligation to do so. In any case, you have already spilled the beans, according to you, so showing the proof of your assertion is a mere formality.
April28 is also under no obligation to reproduce the correspondence here either. And as h/she says if people are that interested, why not email the pj directly?

S/he IS under an obligation to reproduce the correspondence for the simple reason that April28 is the one who has accused Mr. Hall of putting forth an inaccuracy in his film based on information s/he says s/he received from the PJ. I am willing to concede the inaccuracy IF the information is made available. April28 has already told us what the e-mail stated but at the same time April28 declares the information so sensitive that she can't publish the primary source. I and others find this problematic.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Verdi on 31.03.16 20:30

@April28th wrote:
@Verdi wrote:I'm reticent to provide fuel to the ravenous pack of wolves always waiting in the wilderness for a juicy morsel to rip apart ad-nauseam but you're asking a lot for people to believe that a police force in the civilized world would ask a stranger by e-mail to verify their identity.  How does that work exactly - type in a few characters or identify pictures containing rice puddings to prove you're not a robot?

All sounds a bit iffy to me.  Are you sure of who you were allegedly corresponding with - did they verify who they are?



Look, I understand where everyone is coming from, so I wont make the mistake of taking this personally. The above was the email where my identity/purpose was requested, since you queried it. It also shows who replied. I'm not spouting fantasy.

I will stick to my guns and await the reply from them before posting anything else. I asked to see the colour photos, and asked if other photos were witheld from the released files. If I get a reply saying they can't be released, then I will show that verbatim. If they allow me to see photos but not share them, then I will share that word for word. If I receive the images and no request not to distribute them then I will happily share them.

So please just have a little patience, I want to give them the due respect. Yes it's true I have stated the substance of what I was told but as you rightly point out, until it is presented it is not to be taken as truth. I will happily go along with that position. If I become persona non grata during the wait then so be it. Equally, you can see the email address. There's nothing to stop someone else asking them and getting the confirmation, no need to wait on me.

Oh and by the way, I sent my emails in English and Portuguese, and not just word for word, I made the effort to translate back and forth for coherence. They weren't just blunt force translations.

ETA - To update, I've been told to refer my request directly to the Exmo. Magistrado do Ministério Público for decision.
I've just google translated that email from Portuguese to English - this is the result..

we ask that you identify yourself and let us know so that pretends effects which requests. So after the indication dessed elements will be examined superiorly your request.

With melhornes greetings

laugh   I rest my case.

Human resources eh (even I can work that out for myself with the aid of google)?  I curse the day that HR was ever invented, giving all those poor unsuspecting personnel employees an over exaggerated sense of self worth.  As a mater of interest, did the reply about the black/white and gray scale photographs in the PJ files also come from Human Resources?

NB:  I'm not asking that you reveal anything private but I'm still intrigued to know how anyone can identify themselves by way of email.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Verdi on 31.03.16 20:49

@j.rob wrote:
@whodunit wrote:We weren't asking for the photos @April28, though it would be nice to see them. We asked to see the e-mail in which the pj confirmed to you that they received  full color photos from TM rather than the greyscale photos we see in the files. 


I can't stress this enough: You are under no obligation to keep correspondence between you and the police a secret. Unless you are a highly privileged individual with special clearance with the Portuguese or British authorities, even if they asked you to keep the correspondence a secret you are under no obligation to do so. In any case, you have already spilled the beans, according to you, so showing the proof of your assertion is a mere formality.
April28 is also under no obligation to reproduce the correspondence here either. And as h/she says if people are that interested, why not email the pj directly?
Perhaps not under any obligation but if a member makes such a claim on an open forum, it's not unreasonable for other members to expect proof of the claim - how else can it be taken seriously?

I strongly suspect the PJ, or any Portuguese department connected thereto, have more important things to attend to than answering a barrage of questions about a case that was archived in the summer of 2008 and was effectively halted by UK intervention.  I think the two finger salute might be more fitting.  As I understand it, the Portuguese judiciary are obliged to release case files for public interest, they did that so anything that has not been disclosed I assume is for a reason.

Besides, I don't intend to formally pursue an issue raised by another member.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Verdi on 31.03.16 21:42

@April28th wrote:  Having spoken to the PJ I can confirm that they received all the photos in the files in full colour and definition. This means that Richard's assertion that TM delivered them to the PJ in this burned greyscale manner is wrong. I will be contacting him so he can amend this.

I'm assuming you are not in a privileged position (forgive me if I'm wrong) so is there any genuine reason why you can't post-up the confirmation referred to in your OP?  If the PJ so freely gave the information, having first verified your identity, I can't see any earthly reason why it can't be shared.  Preferably the Portuguese and English versions that you previously mentioned.

Please - it would put some of us out of our misery  thumbsup !

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Doug D on 31.03.16 22:00

Off topic as such, but sort of relevant, I wrote to the PJ a couple of years ago enclosing a blank recordable disc, an addressed envelope, together with a €10 note to cover postage etc, requesting a copy of the files, and heard precisely nothing back, which was pretty much what I expected.

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Re: ***NEW FILM*** by Richard D. Hall: When Madeleine Died?

Post by Verdi on 31.03.16 23:02

@Doug D wrote:Off topic as such, but sort of relevant, I wrote to the PJ a couple of years ago enclosing a blank recordable disc, an addressed envelope, together with a €10 note to cover postage etc, requesting a copy of the files, and heard precisely nothing back, which was pretty much what I expected.
And rightly so.  Can you imagine contacting Leicestershire Constabulary asking for information in their files appertaining to the case of Madeleine McCann?

Even the McCanns failed abysmally, despite their tour de force - and that was through the law courts.

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