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SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

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SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by PeterMac on 20.04.15 11:43

Many hundreds have just drowned in the latest incident,
Several thousands have drowned over the last few years.
They come from all parts of the Muslim world, and from parts torn apart by war and unrest
They make their way to Libya, because it is the most lawless of the Maghreb states,
and from there they try to get to Italy, and thence into Europe.

The numbers iinvolved are already in the high tens of thousands, and most are young men,
who no doubt have families ready to join them once they are installed.

WHAT CAN BE DONE ?
We are a Christian country and sub-continent, so torpedoing the ships, turning them back to the Hell hole of Muslim Libya,
and other extreme measures suggested in some comments columns are clearly out of the question.

Re-patriation seems a far fetched suggestion,
Even if you could ascertain with certainty from where they originated - and they are unlikely to tell you -
to send anyone back to an Islamic country is "Cruel and Unusual" when they have decided to flee, and would possibly face death on return.
And re-patriating 10,000, from Afghanistan and Somalia and all points west is a logistical nightmare

I don't know
I wonder if anyone has a sensible and acceptable thought


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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 20.04.15 12:18

@PeterMac wrote:Many hundreds have just drowned in the latest incident,
Several thousands have drowned over the last few years.
They come from all parts of the Muslim world, and from parts torn apart by war and unrest
They make their way to Libya, because it is the most lawless of the Maghreb states,
and from there they try to get to Italy, and thence into Europe.

The numbers iinvolved are already in the high tens of thousands, and most are young men,
who no doubt have families ready to join them once they are installed.

WHAT CAN BE DONE ?
We are a Christian country and sub-continent, so torpedoing the ships, turning them back to the Hell hole of Muslim Libya,
and other extreme measures suggested in some comments columns are clearly out of the question.

Re-patriation seems a far fetched suggestion,  
Even if you could ascertain with certainty from where they originated - and they are unlikely to tell you -
to send anyone back to an Islamic country is "Cruel and Unusual" when they have decided to flee, and would possibly face death on return.
And re-patriating 10,000, from Afghanistan and Somalia and all points west is a logistical nightmare

I don't know  
I wonder if anyone has a sensible and acceptable thought

I don't know if my thoughts are acceptable or not, but IMO the USA & its allies need to get the heck out of the Middle East etc. and stop meddling in other countries affairs. Since their fake wars on terror, millions in the M.E. have died, and there has never been so much unrest that i can recall as there has been in the last years since 9/11, when Dubya (Bush) and his cronies decided to invade the M.E. Human beings are just collateral damage when it comes to the PTB's agendas. Its all about the failing economies and the profits that wars bring, and it is those perpetual wars that will never be won, that have now also filtered into other parts of the world as well. And the beat goes on...
Just think of the trillions of dollars that have been thrown into the war machine, especially in the U.S. It's all about the money, power & control, and our Governments do not care about We the People, considering how many live in abject poverty and misery.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by BlueBag on 20.04.15 13:18

Many years ago, the BBC did a drama called "The March" where hundreds of thousands of people from Africa decided to descend on Europe. They just turned up.

I remember the line they kept repeating "we are poor because you are rich".

Although it was a drama I could see it happening one day.

It's now happening it seems.

I don't know what the answer is but we can't take everyone in.. we just can't.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 20.04.15 14:20

Sounds like the problem Australia has with boat people coming in to the country to seek asylum. I think from what i know Australia detains them in detention camps for processing, if they arrive into the country without drowning in their boats, which has been a huge problem for them in being detained for very lengthy periods once in the country. Does the U.K. have a law called the Refugee Convention? Australia does, so they are legally obligated to help those people that seek asylum.

The 2012 UNHCR Guidelines on Detention explain it in plain English:
Every person has the right to seek and enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution, serious human rights violations and other serious harm. Seeking asylum is not, therefore, an unlawful act… In exercising the right to seek asylum, asylum-seekers are often forced to arrive at, or enter, a territory without prior authorisation. The position of asylum-seekers may thus differ fundamentally from that of ordinary migrants in that they may not be in a position to comply with the legal formalities for entry. They may, for example, be unable to obtain the necessary documentation in advance of their flight because of their fear of persecution and/or the urgency of their departure. These factors, as well as the fact that asylum-seekers have often experienced traumatic events, need to be taken into account in determining any restrictions on freedom of movement based on irregular entry or presence.” (p.12)

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Naz_Nomad on 20.04.15 14:27

We don't need them, we don't want them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 20.04.15 15:19

@Naz_Nomad wrote:We don't need them, we don't want them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints
Who is "We"? And who really owns the world? Who has separated and divided the world? Aren't we all one human family on this planet? Who steals our lands, who steals our money, and our human rights to food, shelter etc. Who spends millions/trillions of our taxpayer money to make war with other countries that could be spent to take better care of humanity? Those innocent people who are affected by all of this crime against them are running for their lives, and losing their lives by trying to save themselves. Those people are not the problem. Maybe its time we all address the real problems in this world to the ones that are the cause of them.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by PeterMac on 20.04.15 15:28

Back from the rhetoric . . .
Is it the case that the entire population of sub-saharan Africa can come to live in the UK ?
Is it the case that every inhabitant of Afghanistan and Bangladesh could come to the UK to live.
Can the UK absorb half the population of Syria, and Sudan, and Ethiopia, and Yemen . . . ?

And if the answer to that is NO, what are we to do about it.

The root causes of the problems vary from country to country, some involve religion, but most involve massive overpopulation, which in turn leads to civil unrest and war.
The next big disputes are going to be between Countries over fresh water.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by j.rob on 20.04.15 15:36

I don't know if my thoughts are acceptable or not, but IMO the USA & its allies need to get the heck out of the Middle East etc. and stop meddling in other countries affairs. Since their fake wars on terror, millions in the M.E. have died, and there has never been so much unrest that i can recall as there has been in the last years since 9/11, when Dubya (Bush) and his cronies decided to invade the M.E. Human beings are just collateral damage when it comes to the PTB's agendas. Its all about the failing economies and the profits that wars bring, and it is those perpetual wars that will never be won, that have now also filtered into other parts of the world as well. And the beat goes on...
Just think of the trillions of dollars that have been thrown into the war machine, especially in the U.S. It's all about the money, power & control, and our Governments do not care about We the People, considering how many live in abject poverty and misery


-----------

Yes. But also each individual country needs to also get it's act together with regard to dealing with the issues leading to the unrest.  Easier said than done of course. The host country problems are not solved by people fleeing to the West. The problems continue. And the UK's resources are finite.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by BlueBag on 20.04.15 15:54

@PeterMac wrote:Back from the rhetoric . . .
Is it the case that the entire population of sub-saharan Africa can come to live in the UK ?
Is it the case that every inhabitant of Afghanistan and Bangladesh could come to the UK to live.
Can the UK absorb half the population of Syria, and Sudan, and Ethiopia, and Yemen . . . ?


And if the answer to that is NO, what are we to do about it.

The root causes of the problems vary from country to country, some involve religion, but most involve massive overpopulation, which in turn leads to civil unrest and war.
The next big disputes are going to be between Countries over fresh water.

Exactly the point Nigel Farage made in the leaders debate (he said where do you draw the line on AIDS health tourists) and got slaughtered for it.

It IS a fair point.

We can't take everyone.

So what do we do?

Interfere in foreign countries or put the barriers up?

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 20.04.15 16:02

Controversial British columnist Katie Hopkins has once again sparked outrage after likening refugees to cockroaches.

Controversial British columnist Katie Hopkins has once again sparked outrage after likening refugees to cockroaches.
In a scathing opinion piece, published by the UK's Sun newspaper, Hopkins suggested Britain adopt Australia’s turn-back-the-boats policy to stop the migrants.
In the column, headlined Rescue Boats? I'd use Gunships to Stop Migrants, Hopkins compared refugees to cockroaches and suggested that gunships be used to prevent the influx of boats attempting to reach Europe from North Africa.
"It's time to get Australian," Hopkins wrote.
"Australians are like British people but with balls of steel, can-do brains, tiny hearts and whacking great gunships.
"Their approach to migrant boats is the sort of approach we need in the Med.
"They threaten them with violence until they bugger off, throwing cans of Castlemaine in an Aussie version of Sharia stoning.
"And their approach is working. Migrant boats have halved in number since Tony Abbott got tough."

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/27215406/katie-hopkins-comments-on-boat-people-sparks-outrage/

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 20.04.15 16:06

@j.rob wrote:I don't know if my thoughts are acceptable or not, but IMO the USA & its allies need to get the heck out of the Middle East etc. and stop meddling in other countries affairs. Since their fake wars on terror, millions in the M.E. have died, and there has never been so much unrest that i can recall as there has been in the last years since 9/11, when Dubya (Bush) and his cronies decided to invade the M.E. Human beings are just collateral damage when it comes to the PTB's agendas. Its all about the failing economies and the profits that wars bring, and it is those perpetual wars that will never be won, that have now also filtered into other parts of the world as well. And the beat goes on...
Just think of the trillions of dollars that have been thrown into the war machine, especially in the U.S. It's all about the money, power & control, and our Governments do not care about We the People, considering how many live in abject poverty and misery


-----------

Yes. But also each individual country needs to also get it's act together with regard to dealing with the issues leading to the unrest.  Easier said than done of course. The host country problems are not solved by people fleeing to the West. The problems continue. And the UK's resources are finite.
The people fleeing to the West are part of the Agenda.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 20.04.15 16:33

You are bound to create Refugees if you attack 7 countries directly or by proxy wars, see:
Retired General Wesley Clark: The U.S. will attack 7 countries in 5 years
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUCwCgthp_E
Gen. Wesley Clark: I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem you have has to look like a nail.
So i came back to see him a few weeks later and by that time we started bombing in Afghanistan. I said, Are we still going to war with Iraq?" And he said " Oh it's worse than that". He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, "I just got this down from upstairs", meaning the Secretary of Defense's office today.
And he said "This is a memo that describes how we're going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and the finishing off Iran.
The U.S. is responsible for these refugees.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Knitted on 20.04.15 18:19

@Joss wrote:Snipped
The U.S. is responsible for these refugees.
...but also behind that (and allied to it) is the fact that an increasing amount of the World's money is built upon debt. This is ubiquitous in the West (for example 97.4p of every UK £1 is actually debt) and the rest of the world is catching up fast.  The billions of poor and disenfranchised across the globe are at the mercy of 'developed countries' that need their resources and their sweat and their toil to be able to appear solvent. America, for its first couple of hundred years could happily expand ("Go West!") to gather the resources it required for its citizens to be prosperous. However, now that their $ is also almost entirely debt, the only thing possible to avoid economic collapse is to (i) draw upon the resources from other nations and (ii) create more $$$ necessary to fund public services, (which is what creates most of the West's money...hence the incredibly high levels of debt). For the US (and many other countries) the biggest 'Public Service' is the military.  Constant war is therefore an inevitable consequence as the UK/US empires creak and groan towards economic implosion.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 20.04.15 18:33

@Knitted wrote:
@Joss wrote:Snipped
The U.S. is responsible for these refugees.
...but also behind that (and allied to it) is the fact that an increasing amount of the World's money is built upon debt. This is ubiquitous in the West (for example 97.4p of every UK £1 is actually debt) and the rest of the world is catching up fast.  The billions of poor and disenfranchised across the globe are at the mercy of 'developed countries' that their resources and their sweat and toil to be able to appear solvent. America, for its first couple of hundred years could happily expand ("Go West!") to gather the resources it required for its citizens to be prosperous. However, now that their $ is also almost entirely the only thing possible to avoid economic collapse is to (i) draw upon the resources from other nations and (ii) create more $$$ necessary to fund public services, (which is what creates most of the West's money...hence the incredibly high levels of debt). For the US (and many other countries) the biggest 'Public Service' is the military.  Constant war is therefore an inevitable consequence as the UK/US empires creak and groan towards economic implosion.
Yes, exactly.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by BlueBag on 20.04.15 20:39

The creation of money out of thin air by private banks is just another pyramid selling scheme now close to collapse.

Private banks and usury are the problem.

The only real tangible wealth is owned property - money (an illusion of wealth) has been used to take tangible property away from nearly everyone.

The American founding fathers knew that and tried their best to stop that cancer but the thieves got their way in 1913 at Jekyll Island.

Usury used to be a sin.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by aquila on 20.04.15 20:54

I have nothing of much value to add to this topic. If anyone had a solution for this it would already be in place.

This is a crisis on a monumental scale and it's not new. Rivers of blood springs to mind.

There is no humanity left. There is only money, greed and this heinous lust for power and wealth.

It's now a blame game. The humanity is left to those who care about what these evil war lords have done. Everyday there is atrocity pictured in the Press. Everyday there is more and more crime, dissent and terrorism whilst leaders such as Blair continue to propound evil imo. Everyday there is the threat of IS and a very real and noticeable change in the culture of the Western world.

I'm not clever enough to understand the politics but I'm savvy enough to know that the EU is an absolutely evil institution.

Just my opinion.

ETA: You won't probably see any significant intake of refugees into USA.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by PeterMac on 20.04.15 22:26

@aquila wrote:I have nothing of much value to add to this topic. If anyone had a solution for this it would already be in place.

Indeed. But there has to be some sort of solution, short term, medium term or long term.
These people are already in Italy. Many tens of thousands of them.
What are we to do ?
There is NOT a "don't know" option here.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 21.04.15 3:42

@aquila wrote:I have nothing of much value to add to this topic. If anyone had a solution for this it would already be in place.

This is a crisis on a monumental scale and it's not new. Rivers of blood springs to mind.

There is no humanity left. There is only money, greed and this heinous lust for power and wealth.

It's now a blame game. The humanity is left to those who care about what these evil war lords have done. Everyday there is atrocity pictured in the Press. Everyday there is more and more crime, dissent and terrorism whilst leaders such as Blair continue to propound evil imo. Everyday there is the threat of IS and a very real and noticeable change in the culture of the Western world.

I'm not clever enough to understand the politics but I'm savvy enough to know that the EU is an absolutely evil institution.

Just my opinion.

ETA: You won't probably see any significant intake of refugees into USA.
Good post Aquila, and i totally agree.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Joss on 21.04.15 3:51

@PeterMac wrote:
@aquila wrote:I have nothing of much value to add to this topic. If anyone had a solution for this it would already be in place.

Indeed.  But there has to be some sort of solution, short term, medium term or long term.
These people are already in Italy.  Many tens of thousands of them.
What are we to do ?
There is NOT a "don't know" option here.
I think the short term solution is to give them safe haven and then process the people as they do in Australia when they come to seek asylum. They don't all necessarily have to stay in one particular country but they could be sent to somewhere that is safer for them all things considered. I found this article from Australia:
(Quote)
On 19 July 2013 and 3 August 2013 the Australian Government established resettlement arrangements with the Governments of PNG and Nauru respectively. The effect of these arrangements is that asylum seekers who are transferred from Australia to those countries will not only remain there while their claims are processed, but if found to be refugees, will be resettled in those countries, rather than in Australia.
For more information about the transfer of asylum seekers to third countries, click here.
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/asylum-seekers-and-refugees-guide

So looks like Australia send them to Papua New Guinea & Nauru.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by lj on 21.04.15 5:51

I understand some people feel good to do some US bashing. One misunderstanding I would like to rectify though, even if it was just because I deal with it on a daily basis.

The US gives a legal permanent resident status to about 1 miljoen people per year. Circa 70,000 of those are refugees or asylum seekers. These are people who went through the legal channels. The first half year of 2014 on the southern border alone 170,000 illegals from countries other than Mexico were processed. Officially they have to go to court to get a hearing if they can stay or not. Of course nobody does. If you include the Mexicans, who after all also flee poverty and violence, you can easily double that number, that's 340,000 per half year. If you estimate the number that enters the country illegally but not get caught you can easily triple that number. That's roughly 1 million per half year, 2 million per year. These numbers are very likely even higher now. There has been an enormous surge in "family units" and unaccompanied children since spring 2014. The government does not want to give numbers, but what I hear from borderpatrol it is 4-5 more than "usual". Among those are many from the mediterranean, middle east, and also Asia.  

So bitch what ever you want about wars and doubleus, don't say the US does not take their "share" of refugees. It is a problem of enormous proportions.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by PeterMac on 21.04.15 7:52

Estimate from Save the Children is that there are 1 million people in Libya waiting for boats.
1 million, at a thousand pounds/euros each, and you can see why the big boys do it.

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by aquila on 21.04.15 8:30

@PeterMac wrote:
@aquila wrote:I have nothing of much value to add to this topic. If anyone had a solution for this it would already be in place.

Indeed.  But there has to be some sort of solution, short term, medium term or long term.
These people are already in Italy.  Many tens of thousands of them.
What are we to do ?
There is NOT a "don't know" option here.
PeterMac, in your original post you state

"I don't know
I wonder if anyone has a sensible and acceptable thought"

and yet now you are saying there is NOT a "don't know" option here.

What are your thoughts on a solution to this massive problem?

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by PeterMac on 21.04.15 9:01

@aquila wrote:
PeterMac, in your original post you state
"I don't know
I wonder if anyone has a sensible and acceptable thought"
and yet now you are saying there is NOT a "don't know" option here.
What are your thoughts on a solution to this massive problem?

Touché !
I should perhaps have said there is not a "DO nothing" option.  Even leaving people to drown is a conscious decision.
What does one do with a million subsaharan africans.

They have arrested the captain and crew of one of the ships and charged him with the deaths of 300 people,
SO  . . .
Board the ships at sea, arrest the crew . .  but then what ?  You now have an unseaworthy ship you don't know how to drive, and 500 people.
Libya probably won't let you back into their territorial waters
And you are from a Christian background, so have a duty to your 'brother'

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by Knitted on 21.04.15 14:33

I don't see a solution that solves the problem. We can put fingers in dykes, but the issues will not go away and the problem will build up and build up until we run out of quick fixes. 

Any effective Humanitarian intervention in troubled countries by the West will cost enormous sums of money. That cost will have to be funded by increasing the debt burden of Western countries. Trying to offset the ever growing debt burden in the West is what's led to our military intervention in developing countries and also to our using them for decades as a source of resources, whilst not sharing the economic benefits amongst the indigenous peoples.  So, anything strategic we do, that doesn't just lightly scratch the surface, will actually be compounding the cause of the problem.

A strategic, global solution is required.  One that has been long mooted is solely taxing consumption, and not taxing income. 

This is a fair leveler that reverses the trend that has led to vast disparity in individual and national wealth. Plato recommended that a wealthy businessman should not earn more than six times an employee. 100yrs ago the arch-banker J.P. Morgan said the ration between the lowest paid in an organisation and the highest paid should be no more than 20:1... but what have we got now? 500:1 and 1000:1 are not uncommon.  This is not irrelevant to the global situation that is driving mass migration.  It is simply a symptom of the same dysfunctional economic problem that is driving global poverty and constant war. 

Taxing consumption, not income, at a national level begins to address the economic disparity between citizens... and at a global level it places income from resources back in the hands of the poorest people.  Billions go to sleep hungry each night (e.g. A child dies of preventable poverty every 3 seconds somewhere on earth), whilst we throw vast amounts of food away, (as individuals, and as part of the food chain long before things hit our supermarket shelves). 

I bet the Romanised nations in Europe felt the same as many of us do now... "The 'Barbarians are coming"... Empires come and go, and the West has had a good run at it!... but the rapidly increasing populations in Africa and the developing parts of Asia have to go somewhere to survive.  It's a global problem... and the only thing guaranteed is that the Human species will continue to replicate its DNA regardless of what culture, empire, or nations happen to be rising or falling at any given time.

(n.b. Much of the above I've simply pinched from watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fbvquHSPJU It's a thought provoking documentary with not a conspiracy theorist in sight! The speakers are from the Financial Times, World Bank, senior international economists, ex-Wall Street, etc.)

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Re: SERIOUS CONVERSATION, about immigrants from Libya

Post by BlueBag on 21.04.15 15:05

@Knitted wrote:That cost will have to be funded by increasing the debt burden of Western countries. 
Debt to who?

Who the hell are we all in debt to?

Maybe it's time some of them took a hit, otherwise people will start coming for them.

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